Phoenician> Way cool, thanks!
B
B
posted @ Sat, Jun 3, 2023 9:11:33 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

As far as how these stories would have played out if making it to screen back then...

[SPOILER] Well I think at a point when the bridge is crossed, Season 3 would have to take some chances in that regard, but might be manageable in a shorter set of eps. After all, the expansion of the clan and one member being radically altered, you couldn't really work around it.

Though I do wonder if there Lex and Hudson's return from London (With Coldstone and Coldfire) would just be back next ep VS them still being gone at the beginning of the Timedancer story.

But then Season 1 besides eventually seeing them leave the Bat Cave or Bat Castle as it were also had Deadly Force continuing into Enter Macbeth and The Edge nvia repercussions of Elisa getting shot.

And The Thrill of the Hunt has to be seen before Her Brother's Keeper. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Jun 3, 2023 2:02:11 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Nate Cosby's teased us a full color page from Dark Ages #1 (and actually, it might just be a panel, but even if it is, what an epic panel)! https://twitter.com/NateCosby/status/1664714995614076928
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Sat, Jun 3, 2023 12:11:15 pm EDT from 206.207.5.54

Well, finally got the chance to read issue 6. Looks like most everyone else covered what I was thinking but I'll give some quick thoughts all the same.

[SPOILER] Good issue, if we haven't reached the boiling point yet we're about to now that Wolf has entered the picture and the hints that Demona will soon follow.

I suspected that the reason why the rest of the Dracons are so cautious about Dino is because it's become especially clear that he's a "Burn down the city so he could be king of the ashes" kind of man. Hence why Antoinette seeks out Broadway, that is assuming that it's not a ruse.

One thing I've had headcanoned for the longest time was some of the events of Brooklyn's Time Dancing. I entertained the idea that Brooklyn lost his eye in a fight with Blackbeard the pirate but I think the splash panel is hinting at that he lost it in his other trip to 2198.

So we have a date with his time on the USS Nashville, 1942. I decided to do some research on the Brooklyn-class cruiser (heh). Turns out that 1942 was a busy year for the ship, participating in the Doolittle Raid and becoming the flagship of Task Force 8 in the Pacific campaign. I can only imagine Brooklyn the gang participated in some of the action before leaving. But this does leave an intriguing question in regards to Katana and having to participate in attacks against her home country. Not of her era, but still an intriguing point.

So Goliath's hearing is on the way, I was rewatching TNG's "Measure of a Man" and now I'm hoping we get a full comic dedicated solely to Goliath's time in court as New York has to truly come to face the existence of gargoyles. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Jun 3, 2023 5:10:37 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Alex >
[SPOILER]
Well, all court cases involve living entities (generally, humans). If anything, I think Goliath might receive lower priority, since he'd be viewed as subhuman by some (possibly many). Plenty of human defendants in criminal cases spend well over a year in jail before their cases get to trial, and in those instances, there isn't even a question of whether or not the person has a right to liberty...Goliath is a rung below those people, since his status is very much in doubt. But to counterbalance that, there would be a strong public interest to figure out what to do about this gargoyle issue. And if there's anything that gets courts to move more quickly, it's public attention and the potential for negative press. So, I do think Goliath's case might be fast-tracked (both this initial court proceeding and subsequent appeals), but not for any altruistic reasons. Simply because no judge wants to be the subject of a bad headline. Sorry to be cynical, but that's been my experience.

And of course, it helps that Judge Roebling is an ally who will probably do whatever he can to help Goliath. Again, ethically, he should really recuse himself from the case since he knows Goliath and has a bias. But I'm hoping he doesn't, of course. :)
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 10:40:10 pm EDT from 63.143.205.193

[SPOILER] Interesting. Could it potentially be fast-tracked due to the fact that you know, a living thing is involved?

I kinda wonder if maybe there could be some stipulation involving Xanatos. Like, he makes guarantees to the state in order to get Goliath released, effectively into his custody. That would be... really vile, and really cool, and kinda heroic all at the same time. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 10:22:31 pm EDT from 70.48.46.12

Alex >
[SPOILER]
You don't sound like an idiot at all! I figured that perhaps you missed the fact that Slaughter was the character's name, but I didn't want to make assumptions. It is an unusual, somewhat campy, name. It made me think of blaxploitation movies from the 1970s (in fact, NFL player Jim Brown starred in a 1972 blaxploitation movie with a title character named Slaughter). So it amused me that Slaughter is indeed in the film business (movie posters seen include Corruptor II and Blood Ratio).

Roebling can definitely rule on Goliath/Crest's motion, but realistically, no matter which side wins, the case would be appealed to a higher court, which could either affirm or reverse Roebling's ruling. Then it could be appealed to an even higher court. In a matter with such broad implications as this, it would very likely reach the Supreme Court eventually. But that would be many appeals, and many years, later.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 9:05:13 pm EDT from 209.140.42.22

[SPOILER] OH! Slaughter is one of the character's names. I'm honestly not sure how I missed that. And Antoinette overheard them talking so she tipped off Broadway. Got it. That's what I was missing.

Yeah, I feel like maybe I missed a bit on the court storyline between last issue and this one. Reading back (I should always carefully read these issues twice, so I don't sound like an idiot -- they're so dense with story) I see now that whether the constitution applies to Goliath *IS* what's at issue here. And that feels like something that would take a very long time to resolve, Judge Roebling probably wouldn't be able to just rule on it. Which maybe he isn't, and that's what he's about to say. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 8:50:58 pm EDT from 70.48.46.12

Alex >
[SPOILER]
Re: The Slaughter exchange. Dominic is senile (or possibly feigning being senile as some have theorized). He asks about going after Volkov. Dino gets ticked off because they've just been discussing how he already went after Volkov. The next target is Izaak Slaughter. Dominic corrects himself and says that he meant to say Slaughter, not Volkov. Does that explain what confused you?

Also, "Slaughter's" isn't a typo. It's a contraction (as in, "Slaughter is our next target").

As far as I can track it, here's the status of Goliath's legal situation. He has been captured, as we would capture a wild tiger or bear that was deemed a danger. Due to the fact that he's more articulate than a tiger or bear, a legal organization represented by Tobe Crest has decided to champion Goliath's cause and make the argument that he is being wrongfully imprisoned. You can't make this argument on behalf of a wild beast. An elephant at the Bronx Zoo can't bring a false incarceration suit. So the uphill battle that Crest has to fight is exactly what you say: to prove that the constitution applies to Goliath, and that he has the same certain inalienable rights that we all have. This is a slippery prospect. We're all enlightened folks here in this forum, and we know Goliath intimately, so maybe it seems obvious to us that he should be treated as a "human." But keep in mind that black people weren't regarded as human for a large chunk of our nation's history. Women were lacking in many fundamental rights, such as the right to vote. Applying our constitution to a brand new species is a HUGE step, and not something that many people would take to easily. Let's not pretend that modern society, in 1997 or 2023, isn't still incredibly bigoted and fearful of the "other."

To be clear, Goliath isn't being prosecuted for anything. As Elisa says in this issue, there are no charges against him. This is a civil proceeding, where Goliath is the plaintiff (the person initiating the lawsuit), suing the City for his release from custody. The City is the defendant; their position is that they want to keep him detained, presumably for safety reasons and for study. The burden of proof is on Goliath, as the party bringing the suit.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 8:09:33 pm EDT from 209.140.44.31

Thoughts on #6:

[SPOILER] I always find the story telling pattern of a comic a bit frustrating myself. I like self-contained narratives, big pay off, story over, move on to the next one. (With continuity being more of a subtle thing weaved in through multiple stories, rather than watching a continuous open ended narrative) But this is all pretty exciting. I find I'm usually a bit at odds with where Greg puts his focus sometimes, I do often find it *very* clinical. Analytical, intellectual. Whereas my tastes *always* go more for the emotional impact of a moment. Goliath's decision is reasoned, logical, deduced. It's utterly stoic and cool, but I wish we got a bit more *feeling* from the moment here. But there isn't a ton of time for it.

It's nice to see Coldstone outraged about it, though. Goliath and Coldstone's relationship has always been portrayed as being a bit one sided. Coldstone gets himself into trouble, Goliath rescues him and Coldstone usually would martyr himself and be taken out of the story until his next episode for one reason or another. Here, Coldstone comes to Goliath's rescue and the tables are flipped a bit as Goliath martyrs himself.

It is kinda crazy that the Clan just has two super powerful android/cyborg zombies in their arsenal now.

There's a lot of off-screen text in this issue I find kinda hard to follow. I think Greg's kinda showing his animation roots with this because it works really well in a TV series, when you can hear voices. But in a comic, especially if they're having a conversation *with* someone, it just makes it unclear to me who's speaking. Maybe that's just me. Less of an issue on a second reading of course.

But I love all the gangster politicking. It was great in Spectacular Spider-man and it's great here. When they got introduced in issue 3 I felt a bit overwhelmed with so many unclear factions and new characters, but now I feel pretty attached to all of them and have a really strong sense of what their personalities are.

Chekhov's newspaper article from Lighthouse is a bit funny. I'm not sure if I like it, or if it's too cute. I think it's probably too cute, but I don't hate it. I like Dino a lot otherwise. He's intimidating and strong, but mostly because he's not punching outside his weight class. Which I appreciate. The story isn't trying to pretend he's gonna be able to take on Xanatos or beat up the clan or something. He's winning by not even getting into the fight.

Don't love the way the comic's portraying the Russian. I dunno what a good way to do it is, though. Translation services (even just google translate) are pretty effective and reliable these days. So maybe put in the Cyrillic and put in subtitles in the margins? I dunno. Maybe that's too much.

The clan is *really* bad at Xanatos's game. Xanatos has nothing to gain by letting harm come to the clan and everything to lose. But Brooklyn still doesn't trust him. And he's right not to, but the way he's handling it is incorrect I think.

The whole "Slaughter, I meant Slaughter" exchange didn't make sense to me. I'm clearly missing something. Though there's also a little typo in my version with "Slaughter's" instead of "Slaughters".

Wouldn't defining Goliath's legal status actually be... fairly simple? I mean the ins and outs and all the nitty gritty details of it might be difficult, but I feel like whether human laws apply to him as a sentient being would be... fairly quick, at least in the 90s. I guess the question at hand is if the constitution and bill of rights can be argued to protect him, but whether or not he can be tried as a conscience self-aware being would be fairly self-evident since he can speak and explain himself I'd think. There'd be a lot of bureaucracy in the way of course, but I don't even know if the prosecution would fight that. Isn't it easier to try him and prosecute him if he is sentient? Or is the government trying to argue *against* his sentience, lest they become responsible for his personal well being?

This feels too big for how much time there is for the story. But I'm enjoying it.

"Mr. Broadway Sir" does feel a bit silly, I didn't really think Owen and Broadway had that sort of relationship, it even feels a bit unnecessarily sycophantic or long-winded for the efficient Owen.

Antoinette just showing up to see Broadway feels a *bit* like it's just to save time not getting in the weeds on explaining how Antoinette knows about the Gargoyles, tracking them down, how she knows Broadway's name. All a lot of unnecessary fluff that can be inferred very easily (as Greg B has done), and we just get the cut straight to the meat. Antoinette making a deal with some Gargoyles. Good, efficient, I really don't mind this. Get to the good stuff. Ultimately, I appreciate it. Also I still always read Antoinette's dialogue as Marisa Tomei from My Cousin Vinny which just tickles me.

The fourth wall breaks I find very unnecessary, and I dunno if we need to get into all of Brooklyn's Time Dancer stuff here, but the splash page showing all these little tidbits of his Time Dancer journey are *super cool*. It feels like candy for long time fans, something neat for people who have been wondering for decades about what that spin-off would look like. But... I feel like there's other, better things to spend real estate on. But it does a good job communicating what Brooklyn's mind set is right now.

The Broadway/Lex scene is cute. I dunno how I feel about Lexington's relationship with Staghart. I'm beyond elated that the comic makes it explicit and liminal, and isn't trying to dance around it or do something cute and easy and safe. That's awesome, I hesitate to say kudos to Greg W and the comic team (because it should just be something that's *done*, it shouldn't be a surprise) but kudos none the less. The London Gargoyles always seem weird to me. Like another species.

I love that glasses is wearing the doofy VR visor. I always appreciate that Greg W uses all the parts of the Buffalo. VR technology exists, so why wouldn't they keep using it? Cyberbiotics makes tiny drones, so why shouldn't someone steal them (or are they part of a plan by Halcyon?). It's neat and gives the issue a bit of action toward the end.

The mention of Wolf's "rep" at the end makes me laugh a bit. Sportmaster talked about his rep so much in Young Justice season 1 & 2 it got a bit silly, and me and my friends would always joke about it. It's also kind of weird given that the big selling point of next issue is the return of Demona, we're getting a Wolf/Dino tag setting up a potential return of the Pack. How PACKed (pun intended) is the next issue going to be? It seems like it might be busting at the seams a bit.

But honestly every time I think that's going to happen, I'm proven wrong and the pacing/storytelling turns out just fine. So I will absolutely wait and see.

I also -- as much as I dislike it in general -- appreciate that Greg seems to be using a more comic-oriented pacing here than he was initially. With little bite sized "scenes" that'll play out over multiple issues. Using a comic structure for a comic definitely makes more sense than trying to shoehorn a 3 act television structure into a medium where it isn't suited. Imagine trying to wrap up all these story threads in a satisfying way in this issue. So the story is *definitely* flowing a lot better. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 5:52:58 pm EDT from 70.48.46.12

[SPOILER] Matt: Yes, I also found Brooklyn's struggle with leadership surprising, not least since his plan last issue was about as good as any that any of the clan have ever assembled - a casualty-free, surgical rescue expertly planned and that would have been a tremendous success had the captive actually wanted to be rescued. Obviously it's not lack of talent but his own unfamiliarity with the terrain of leadership. All the same, I feel like there's a lot that's still uncertain about this 'new' Brooklyn and I don't feel we've really got a grip on his character. I guess it'll be a long time before we do.

I think the "our little talks" line was a response to all the gargoyles since the last interaction with him was Brooklyn blowing him off.

My take on the commitment ceremony thing is that Brooklyn is now a completely different age and in a different place in his life.

Great to hear your take on the Lex arc. My interpretation was that Lex considers it a relationship and Broadway understands it as such but they're both comfortable with Lex not wanting to use the specific label or further define it at this point. I think it was beautifully done.

Greg B: Great thoughts and almost certainly true. However, another possibility that occurred to me - one for which there's no actual evidence but I quite like - what if Antoinette is friends with Fox? They're similar ages, both intelligent, criminal-minded but not sociopathic. Fox clearly pulled at least Wolf from the criminal underworld and for all we know she found Jackal, Hyena and Dingo the same network of contacts. Antoinette's connections into the heart of the five families make her exactly the kind of connection Fox (and David) would like to cultivate, and we know that there is some communication between them since someone had to put Owen and Glasses in contact in "Deadly Force" -- I can't imagine Glasses is in the phone book. From Fox's point of view, information about the gargoyles might be very effective quid pro quo for insight into the state of the New York underworld. But if Antoinette turned to Fox for advice, it wouldn't surprise me if Fox would suggest she contact Broadway - the Xanatoses have no interest in Dino razing "their city" to the ground. I grant you this falls into the "I'd like it to be true" rather than "there's good evidence it is true" category since I think Fox and Antoinette could have an interesting dynamic. [/SPOILER]

Incidentally, there's a great interview with Greg (link on my name). Interestingly, he suggests that [SPOILER] reverberations from "Alliance" could start BEFORE #7. Assuming he was referring to the comics and not to past episodes of the series, that's rather intriguing. I did wonder if the strong theme of dreams in recent issues might lead into 'Dark Ages' but since apparently this isn't the "Dream" story, that's perhaps unlikely. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 2:28:01 pm EDT from 31.94.72.15

Phoenician >
[SPOILER]
The courtroom proceeding we see in this issue is not a hearing. It's just motion practice (it's not exactly clear what relief the motion filed by Tobe Crest is requesting, although it's implied in the prior issue that it's a habeas motion for Goliath's release from custody...in support of which, Crest is presumably arguing that Goliath is sentient and therefore entitled to "human" rights). I think you're probably correct that the judge's unheard ruling is to adjourn the case for actual in-court arguments and evidence, but that will likely be in the form of a hearing, not a trial. Margot no doubt argued in her motion response that this matter does not even merit a hearing and that the judge should decide the issue purely on their filings, so I'm sure she is ticked off, which makes me happy.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 12:28:05 pm EDT from 209.140.45.249

Some thoughts on #6: [SPOILER] I just love how, after decades of discussion, dissection, and debate, we are still kept on our proverbial toes. Looking back at our Halcyon speculation, it now appears Xanatos has knowledge of, if not been the source of Goliath's legal counsel. And now the cybots that was on one of pages teased to us are being operated by Glasses. So that silhouette remains the sole hint of Halcyon's involvement. For now.

With Castaway's appearance in the courthouse, I'm reminded once more that the Illuminati have a lot of hands in a lot of cookie jars, especially with Xanatos and Bluestone also involved in their respective corners of this story. Add my own suspicion mounting that Xanatos's lockdown of the Eyrie Building leads to a Dracon showing up at the castle less than 24 hours later and I'm left feeling that Xanatos is once again more involved than any of us can anticipate (which is always entertaining), though his motives remain mercurial at best. But as a fan reading these issues, that is genuinely the fun with all these moving pieces, but in-universe, I'm not surprised Brooklyn feels like he's drowning.

The Wolf revelation was another delight, as much as the chill of Dino's ambivalence of Tony's survival. Yikes. But your right, Ed, perhaps Dino's playing Wolf to subtle sabotage when he takes a stab of breaking into Rikers (gotta love the change of pace after all the breakouts). On the gangland front, gotta love Volkov unintentionally throwing Brod's line of cutting off the heads of the snake from "Turf".

I do like the idea that Antoinette, Tony (through Antoinette), and Dominic are playing their own game in all this. In figuring how Antoinette knows so much of the gargoyles, it wouldn't surprise me that Tony's been sharing on that front (Glasses and Pal Joey have likely also divulged their previous encounters as well). Her knowledge of their home can be chalked up to being New York's worst kept secret. Her easy entry in the Eyrie Building is the puzzle piece without a partner yet (at least for me).

Wondering about Pete and Rosie. Given that their captors were disguised, they couldn't clear the air even if they did escape from Dracon's people.

As discussed in the past couple months, I do think we'll start seeing Elisa's standing with the 23rd Precinct (if not the whole NYPD) to be put to the test in the next few issues, especially since Goliath's hearing will be the top of all of the headlines coming out of New York City.

As for Roebling's ruling, he was considering a motion as to whether Goliath had -- for lack of a better term -- human rights. I think Elisa's explanation to the rest of the clan was the reveal that the judge ruled not to decide right then and there if Goliath did or did not have rights, but to have a full, formal proceeding to make that determination. So perhaps that is what is distinguishing between the initial hearing in #5 and the 'trial' in these upcoming issues.

Brooklyn's TimeDance splash page was a scene stealer for sure, but Lexington and Broadway's conversation was another. These NECA figures can't come soon enough. I'm really hoping Lexington will arrive before the year ends -- it would be awesome to have the Trio in hand before the Here in Manhattan arc wraps up. :D [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 3:12:12 am EDT from 68.2.64.232

[SPOILER]
I just had a delayed realization, and now my head is spinning. So, we're going to get ANOTHER Clancy Brown-off, with Wolf going up against Brod.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Jun 1, 2023 12:43:29 am EDT from 63.143.200.76

Bishansky >
[SPOILER]
Insightful analysis, thanks! I do wonder whether the gargoyles living in the Eyrie Building will become Manhattan's worst-kept secret.

Antoinette's specific use of the word "protect" is what really grabbed me. I even watched the episode "Protection" to remind myself if Goliath ever used the gargoyle mantra in that episode in front of Tony or Glasses, but no dice. Interesting theory about "Macduff" potentially including that terminology in his book. I'd love it if Greg would find the time to write chapters from Macduff's book and include them as text back matter in the comics, a la Watchmen.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 8:13:43 pm EDT from 209.140.44.150

Loving all of the conversation!

CRAIG: [SPOILER] In regards to your questions about Antoinette and how she knows gargoyles protect, how she knew where to find them. Those are easy.

Let's go back to #1 of SLG, Travis Marshall asked Matt, on television, if there was any truth to the rumors that Xanatos was harboring the gargoyles atop the Eyrie. Matt, of course, dodged the question. But I don't think the location of the gargoyles is any kind of big secret. Xanatos just so happens to be rich and powerful enough to prevent an investigation because there's no actual smoking gun. But Antoinette doesn't need a smoking gun.

As for how Antoinette knew gargoyles protect, again... the info is out there. Maybe she read Lennox Macduff's book. Considering how much gargoyles did interfere with her family's businesses and operations, I am willing to bet she watched the live debate between Macbeth and Margot. And why she'd bet on them protecting? Well, is her brother still among the living when Goliath has had two chances to kill him and Broadway has had at least one? [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
https://spidey-dude.com/category/podcasts/voices-podcast/
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 7:39:17 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

One more thought on Gargoyles #6..
[SPOILER]
I missed an obvious question...how the heck did Antoinette even know where to find the gargoyles?!
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 5:08:23 pm EDT from 209.140.46.207

Gargoyles #6
[SPOILER]
The intro page is interesting. I don't believe we've had such a metaphorical visual depiction of a character's emotions before. It feels like a big stylistic departure for the series. George's artwork for that page is great. The repetition of the drowning metaphor throughout the issue's narration does start to feel...well, repetitive. But I suppose that's the point.

A quick google tells me that one of the credited colorists for the issue, Giulia Giacomino, does indeed work for Arancia Studio, the Italian studio that was credited with coloring the last two issues (this comic is turning into quite the international endeavor, with George in Greece). I couldn't tell if the other colorist, Giovanna La Pietra, also works for Arancia, but based on her very Italian name, it seems likely.

Goliath only appears briefly in this issue but his appearance packs a lot of punch. I like that his rationale for staying in jail is first and foremost strategic, and is focused on protecting the clan. Sure, he's also interested in the larger gambit of improving human/gargoyle relations, but this isn't just some grand gesture to prove something to humanity: first and foremost, it's a logical decision on what's best for everyone's safety. And as I predicted, Goliath doesn't get any brownie points from his captors for choosing to remain. They simply view it as a failed breakout attempt. I also enjoy the fact that Goliath is candid about the fact that he is uncertain of his course. And of course, the great line, "I do not kid," which I can hear in Keith's voice.

Felice's Meats. Nice callback to "Eye of the Beholder." So I guess that place is Volkov's "legitimate" business?

Ok, a rare criticism of the artwork: In the top panel on page 6, the art of Coldstone, Coldfire, Katana, Gnash, Angela, Broadway and Lex is almost identical to the top panel on issue 5 page 15. Some characters appear to have been completely cut and pasted, while a couple have slightly different facial expressions (Angela and Gnash). Then on page 12 of this issue, the exact same art from page 6 repeats AGAIN. Is this a labor-saving measure, or is there some point that's being made storywise that I'm missing? Granted, George is really turning out a lot of high-quality work every month, so if a corner needs to be cut here or there, so be it. But this particular reuse really jumped out at me in a distracting way.

Once again, no Bronx (even in the group shots of the clan). :(

It seems like a bit of a stretch that Volkov jumps to the conclusion that Dane was behind the hit. The thing about using the same style of bomb is pretty thin. You'd think Volkov would see through the ruse pretty easily, especially since he was so worried about Dino's return back in issue 3 ("The elevator doors open and you-know-what just floods out"). Dino's kidnapping scheme was a little more plausible, but this one is straining my credulity.

One advantage of the comic book medium over animation: On TV, they wouldn't have been able to hide the Wolf reveal until the end, since we would have recognized his voice way earlier.

Speaking of Wolf (although I'm getting ahead of myself here story-wise), I wonder if we'll learn his first name. So far, we're two for three on Pack members' surnames being a foreign translation of the animal they chose to become.

Judge Roebling gets an "I say." I can't recall if Greg has used this vocal tic for his character before, but obviously it's a reference to Foghorn Leghorn, another character with a broad Kentucky accent. (See also Daniel Craig in Knives Out.)

Greg is a tease! We get a sadistically short courtroom scene (that would last all of twenty seconds on screen), ending with the judge ABOUT to hand down a ruling. Grrr. Really wondering where this will lead.

We get another scene, similar to the one in the last issue, of Elisa and Goliath just silently looking at each other through the bars. I suppose Elisa is afraid to be seen speaking to him? People still have to wonder why she keeps visiting the jail to look at him.

Ok, WHAT is up with Owen? Calling Broadway "Mister Broadway, sir"? Since when has Owen ever used honorifics for the gargoyles, let alone throwing a "sir" onto the end?! This is following on from his odd dialogue-free appearances in issue 1 (apparently presenting Elisa with a phone on a tray like some sort of butler) and issue 2 (looking oddly depressed as he either works at the world's oddest-shaped computer workstation or, at someone here humorously proposed, carrying giant letters "A" and "E" for Alex's playtime).

I'm not sure what exactly Antoinette's outfit is supposed to be, but it's pretty cool. Also digging her mismatched earrings. The woman's got some style.

Not really a fan of Broadway's parenthetical "I knew he was evil." Just feels sort of weird and unnatural to me.

The Antoinette scene is weird all around. I suppose she knows Broadway's name from Glasses. Glasses learned Goliath and Broadway's names in "Protection," so Broadway is the only gargoyle not currently incarcerated that Antoinette would be able to ask for by name. But how does she know that "gargoyles protect"? And what did she say to Owen to get let in? The only relationship we're aware of between Xanatos and the Dracons is Tony robbing the shipment of guns, right? One wouldn't imagine the Dracons are terribly welcome on Xanatos's property.

Also really not a fan of Brooklyn's "spin-off" line. Sometimes Greg can get a little too cute with his dialogue.

The Broadway/Lexington scene is freaking adorable, and is probably going to be a highlight of the issue for a lot of people, me included. Really nice to see Lex smile after how dour he's been around the clan lately. Matt's take on the exchange about Staghart is interesting (particularly given how much Matt can relate to Lex's experience--thanks for sharing all that, Matt). I wonder how common homosexuality was in the tenth century clan and how accepted it was. I'm sure Greg has been asked about this at some point, but I can't recall for sure. It is great to finally have Lex's sexuality as true canon though, not just subtext.

Great to see those Cyberbiotics robots again. Such a cool design. But, what the hell? It seems unlikely that Dino stole all those. From just what we see, there are over two dozen. Is Renard backing the Dracons as part of whatever we saw him plotting? What game is he playing at?!

Odd that Elisa says they're putting Goliath "on trial" when Greg has made a point on the Voices from the Eyrie podcast that it is a hearing, NOT a trial. You'd think that distinction would come naturally to Elisa as a cop who has likely testified in both hearings and trials.

Overall, great stuff as usual, and I'm loving the momentum.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 4:44:18 pm EDT from 209.140.46.207

"Hey! this is a very interesting post, I liked it…
Tree Service Orlando - [buluksura at gmail dot com]
builder16
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 1:53:32 pm EDT from 120.29.76.143

As I said, I waited up for Chapter 6 to drop into my Kindle. For me in central time, that happens at 11pm. Read it twice before going to sleep! Now, my thoughts having talked to no one else about any of it (aside from my husband!):

[SPOILER] - We pick up where we left off. Goliath is choosing to stay. He's not super confident this is the correct course, but he wisely sees that escaping will only escalate the threat and staying might help improve things for human-gargoyle relations.
- Brooklyn lets Goliath make the choice, of course, but you can see theres a lot going on there. Hence the drowning metaphor. Brooklyn has said he doesn't leave gargoyles behind, but here he is ordered to. He also appears burdened by the weight of leadership. On the one hand, this surprises me. This is far from the first time Brook has had to fill that role. The six months of the World Tour and then effectively the forty years of Timedancing. However, as he muses later, Timedancing was easier in ways. He wasn't leading a clan. And while leadership is always hard, his clan is living with a untrustworthy landlord during a crisis with Goliath's capture. oh, and there's a gang war brewing. A lot to take on, but he's doing great. He's come a long way from "Kingdom".
- Felice's Meats returns as the scene of Dino's next play. Dino isn't the chaotic figure I was expecting a few months ago (though he might've been in the past). His plans to turn all the families against each other is almost Xanatos-ian. It also reminds me of Valmont and Demona's plans in 997 to have everyone do each other in and take over after everyone in opposition has eliminated each other.
- Back with the Clan, Elisa is explaining that, as she predicted, the breakout attempt has made things worse. It sounds like Xanatos arranged to have Tobe Crest as Goliath's counselor. And he has locked down the Eyrie. He's being rather helpful really, though Brooklyn doesn't but into it at all. He seems to be especially distrusting of Xanatos. Obviously the Clan has a past with him, but there seems to be more to it. Did Brook learn something during the Timedance that makes him leery? I recall that even before the Timedance in "Nightwatch" it was Brooklyn who voiced his concerns about Xanatos to Goliath and Hudson. Interesting. Anyway, despite Xanatos claiming that they are safe, Brooklyn puts Coldstone and Coldfire on daytime duty. This makes so much sense that its surprising this wasn't already standard practice.
- A couple tiny details here: Broadway and Lexington seem to have concerns for their brother, Brook's eyepatch doesn't appear to turn to stone with him, and Xanatos saying "I do love our little talks". Who is he talking to? Elisa? The Clan?
- So Volkov (and his driver) survived. Barely. Almost immediately when we saw him talking to his offscreen son, I knew that the son had to be someone we knew. Before getting to the end, I tried to figure out who it might be. I did not figure it out before the reveal... but we'll get there in a minute. Dominic's mind really seems to be slipping. Dino has Volkov vs. Brod, and Choi vs. Sanchez. Slaughter is the next target.
- Lets talk about Antoinette. She seems concerned here. And she even takes steps to reign Dino in. But why? What would she prefer? I don't see her as a hero. So, is she bringing Broadway in to help mitigate things? Or is that just another part of Dino's plan (gargoyles vs. Slaughter)? She is very intriguing in this chapter. A lot of questions. For instance, she knows Broadway by name (perhaps Tony told her?), but how does she know where to find him? Xanatos said he locked down the castle, but less than a day later she is provided access easily enough. How?! Does she know Xanatos? She seems pretty comfortable around a gargoyle considering this appears to be her first time around one. Lot of strange stuff here. Broadway doesn't want to trust her. And I don't either. We'll see how this develops.
- Still, what she tells Broadway is enough to convince him to follow up (and disobey orders when doing so!). Though Lex and Gnash notice his departure. This may be Brook's narration chapter, but Broadway is a major lead in this one.
- Back to Brooklyn and the awesome Timedancing double page. We had seen this before in previews, but to see it in color with dates and dialogue is just awesome. Another fun peak through the fourth wall with the spin off reference. And lots of little tidbits like the first non-illusion appearance of the Eyrie Pyramid and a flying saucer. Also, we can put together a few details about Brooklyn's time. It seems he acquired Fu-Dog, then Katana joined him, then he lost his eye, then Gnash's egg was produced. So, he lost his eye before he was even halfway through the dance it seems. Interesting.
-Back to Broadway who was followed by Lex. The personal Lex and Broadway stuff continues to be my favorite part of each chapter and we build on both of their arcs here. First, Broadway announces that he and Angela are getting hitched and Lex is like "great". But once Broadway asks Lex to be his Second, Lex becomes genuinly excited and honored. Maybe Lex was feeling that the commitment ceremony would pull the trio even more apart, but being his second made it feel like old times again. Nice stuff. But what about Brooklyn? Broadway and Lexington agree that Brook might not be into it. As with Chapter 5, I've gotta wonder why they feel this way. Is it because they know Brooklyn was interested in Angela at one point? Surely they see that with Katana in the picture that is water long under the bridge. Or maybe they feel that he's a lot older now and just not their brother anymore. At least, not really. Or maybe they suspect that the distraction of a mate and child or of leadership makes him too busy or unavailable. I continue to look forward to watching this play out.
- Then we get to the two little panels that had me lose it a bit. Broadway, out of nowhere, asks Lex how the long distance thing with Staghart is going. Lex only smiles and then changes the subject. Wow! A more overt acknowledgement of Lex's sexuality than we've ever had in canon. Just amazing to see it all happening. Not sure I ever thought it would. And it really hits me in a personal way too. I was just starting to discover my own sexuality when Gargoyles came into my life in 1994. And by the time I figured it all out around 2000, I also began to wonder about Lexington. A couple years later I discovered this site and learned that I was on the right track. And now 20+ years later we are here and I'm watching Lex walk a very similiar path to my own. I'm a 41 year old gay married man and seeing this stuff really takes me back. I'm glad times have changed where this is all possible and that Disney had the courage to allow it. I believe it will really mean something to some young person out there who was like me and Lex and is starting their own journey of personal discovery. Thank you, Greg, for making this happen. It means a lot to me.
- But let's talk about the in-universe stuff! We know more, but there are always questions. Is Lex already aware that he is gay? Did Lex already tell Broadway about his feelings for Staghart? I'm thinking the answer to both questions is no given Lex's reactions. I think Broadway knows his brother, is very emotionally aware, and just used his amateur detective brain to put it all together. I think this is the first time any of this has been discussed between the two. And I wonder if Broadway's question really opened up Lex's eyes a bit. Or let him feel that his feelings were okay. hard to say what is going on in Lex's head except that he seems pleased with Broadway's question, but not yet ready to talk about it. I've gotta say that my own brother was one of the first people I came out to and his support not only changed our relationship, but really gave me strength to boldly be who I am. This is another reason this brief moment really got to me. It made me think about my own big brother. Just so awesome.
- But enough about that! We've got Glasses wearing a Recap visor and controlling Cybots to worry about! I've gotta wonder how Scarab Corp and Cyberbiotics tech got into his hands. Is this stuff available on the market or did the Dracons steal it? Or perhaps it was given to them... Slaughter is having an interesting evening for sure.
- The city decides to have a trail to determine whether Goliath is sentient. It is an important step, but still hard not for Brooklyn and Elisa to take personally.
- And finally, our cliffhanger. Volkov's son is revealed to be none other than Wolf. That surprised me! We know hes descended from Hakon. Is Volkov then too? Or perhaps Wolf is Hakon's descendent on "Ma"'s side. Interesting that Dino and Wolf have a history. I presume this is from before Dino's incarceration and Wolf's transformation. Volkov wants Wolf to take out Brod at Riker's. Dino says he doesn't care if Tony is collateral damage. Yikes. I gotta wonder if Wolf is planning on assaulting Riker's alone. My guess is he'll seek the help of some old accomplices. We'll see.
- A really great Chapter. So much good stuff here. Sorry for rambling on. Really glad the next one is less than a month away! All of these storylines and now Demona too! Although I suspect she's just there to be a truly nightmarish mother-of-the-bride. Just kidding... maybe? [/SPOILER]
Matt
"I have one absolute rule: No gargoyle left behind. Period." - Brooklyn, "Render Unto Caesar"
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 12:47:27 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Usually I'm counting down the days until a new issue but any lick of free time currently is owned wholesale by the magnificent 'Tears of the Kingdom' so it was a pleasant surprise yesterday to remember that there's also a new 'Gargoyles' issue. And I think it may be the best Dynamite issue yet...

[SPOILER] Greg really is just going at warp speed here. There's no sense that any plot line is holding back or laying pipe. It's just wham moment after wham moment solid - and we're only half-way in. I am really curious about - and hopefully one day on Voices from the Eyrie Greg will discuss - what the episodic version of these ideas would have been. Feels like a Broadway/Lex episode about the gang war and a separate Goliath episode about the trial were merged. But who knows.

ONE-WORDER
Greg's back with the one word titles. Add in "Alliance" and we're now 2 out of 8 for one-worders.

DROWNING
I was surprised this didn't have a pay-off. It's a dramatic image, made all the better by the peerless George Kambadais now absolute master of all he surveys. I just thought the drowning would be foreshadowing for a literal moment (either in the present story or even a moment from timedancing) and perhaps it still will but so far it seems to be only a visual metaphor. And while I don't mind that in some contexts, that would seem a slightly artificial way to add extraneous drama to an already dramatic issue so I think I'm still hoping there will be a literal pay-off somewhere down the line.

COLOUR
Giulia Giacomino and Giovanna La Pietra have joined the colouring team. I love that the colours on this book have been really consistent despite this being the third different credit in six issues (although they may indeed be from the studio that handled #4 and #5). To their credit, it's kind of hard to tell for sure that there's a change and I had to check back to make sure I wasn't imagining the richer shadows but if you compare the penultimate page of #5 to page 2 of #6, there's a panel that has almost identical framing and you can really see the change. A little deeper and more shadowy. And of course my favourite moment:

JESUS COMPLEX
The shadow of the cross falling across Goliath's face in page 3 panel 2... beautiful. It's all in colours too. So subtle I missed it on first reading although I think it landed subconsciously but it's just chef's kiss perfection.

BLOOD DOWN THE STAIRS
Dino lives up to his 'The Shining' reputation by blowing Volkov up. Very surprised to see it escalate to this point so directly. But the upshot, if I can skip out of review sequence, is we meet a new character, Sidor, and of course find out that Volkov is related to Wolf which is perfect. Funnily enough, I did a deep dive on names for #4 but since he was only called Grisha back then and I didn't do a second deep-dive when his surname was revealed to be Volkov, I missed the - with hindsight - absolutely blatantly obvious. Which is great. I love to be blindsided and it feels like with the previews being so far in advance and so thorough (and I've kind of given up trying to duck them as I did for a bit as it makes it hard to look up interviews or information). This was a genuine surprise. And it makes so much sense for Wolf's character backstory if he's from the Russian mob, prince to the kingdom no less. I didn't expect the character back this arc but it'll be interesting to see him here.

SECURITY
"Security's been tripled at Riker's..." I mean, given Wolf and Hyena broke out like five months ago you'd think the security would be tripled as standard! Ah, budgets.

XANATOS
I just love his lines here. But it feels very significant to me that Brooklyn is so skeptical of Xanatos. And it's hinted that Xanatos paid for Tobe Crest although David's use of the passive allows for alternate interpretations.

DOMINIC
So now I feel like Dominic is playing Dino. Was this to reiterate subtly to Antoinette the danger of Dino's game or is this just a long-game plan of his. I feel like there's a good chance that it's Dominic who will put Dino down, at least with respect to this arc.

CASTAWAY
Interesting that Castaway is in court. Not clear who he's talking to. I kind of wish we'd seen more of him and hopefully the Quarrymen are a bigger part of the action in the second half of the arc. I know some people have negative views of the Quarrymen coming out of TGC but I can barely remember TGC and the group as portrayed by Greg in the comics so far is so diverse and resonant to the real world that I think they're one of the most fascinating moving parts in the story right now.

THEY CALL ME MISTER BROADWAY
Okay, this is... big. Antoinette not only knows exactly where to find the gargoyles but she walks right into their home (with Owen's permission) to do business. As much as she's lukewarm on Dino's plan, I'm not convinced she's not got an angle of her own.

MONTAGE
So the montage is pretty cool. We get hints about three dates from the timedance. I was surprised to see Katana in 2198 - I don't recall her from the pitch document. Then again, apparently Brooklyn was to spend two longer stints there. It's possible this was a separate stint (although if the year is still 2198 how long could they be? Unless he overlaps - it would be interesting to have an arc where there are two versions of Brooklyn from two different phases of his journey co-existing).

BROADWAY AND LEX
Lovely, lovely little scene. The mention of Staghart and confirmation that there is a "thing" to be had is fab. The distance from Broadway including, let's face it, blatantly disregarding his orders. It's great.

LIGHTS, CAMERA
So Slaughter is in the movie biz. Hard to believe the head of a film studio would be evil. Go fig.

RECAP
So Glasses has obviously got his hands on some Cyberbiotics tech with RECAP and Renard's robots making a reappearance. What's great is that this is told exclusively through the artwork - there's never a hat hung on it in the dialogue. It's a great example of a subplot that only exists for -- and is only visible by -- the fans. This is the second time recently where I've just had to stop and marvel at Greg's multi-level storytelling skills. I know it's a focus of his and it's always been there but... damn, he's good.

MATHS
So as I make it (and please do check my sums) the drones are moving at about 26 metres per second. That means the gap between the panels is roughly 0.7 seconds. Which is pretty much as long as it would take to shout "drones". I don't know if Greg thought anyone would ever check the maths (okay, who am I kidding, of course he absolutely knew that it would be checked because it's THIS fandom) but this is exactly the kind of moment where some kind of random numbers could have been used because it's just for the look of robots spewing numbers. But no, the details are spot-on. Love it!

SIGNATURE OVERKILL
Is it just me or is Glasses enjoying this? I don't know I see him wanting to go back to working for Tony after this. The splash page with the robots is amazing too.

HAIR RAISING
I get the logic of the framing and it's poetic but I still kind of wish we'd seen Elisa's face for this one.

NO HARD FEELINGS
So Dino's love for family doesn't run too deep if he's willing to write Tony off as collateral damage. (Or is he? Perhaps he's playing Wolf and is expecting Wolf to be put down). I really love this scene because there's a great mutual respect there between the characters.

PLUS
Kind of amuses me that Demona's much-vaunted return is relegated to a "plus" mention (not even by name) at the end of the issue. Greg B said on a recent podcast that any other writer would have gone right to using Demona as such a big marquee villain and frankly any other writer putting a surprise villain reveal at the end of a TPB volume would have gone for Demona. Greg goes for Wolf. Brilliant. I'm not even sure how smart it is in terms of sales (luckily, sales seem - without wishing to jinx it - to be holding up nicely). But it's much welcomed.

COVERS
I hadn't seen the Amanda Conner cover in previews but it's terrific. Not sure what it has to do with the issue except that Broadway and Lex do some investigating - looks more like a Hallowe'en/Day of the Dead themed cover. Great stuff though.

Anyway, the issue is the best yet in a really good run. I feel like #7-12 are going to be off the leash. Can't wait! [/SPOILER]

Todd: Fantastic thoughts. I assume the gargoyles would have a "handler". Elisa or Matt might be unlikely to be trusted though so I guess they could have a handler who is more distanced. And yes, the idea of Broadway being the first gargoyle on the force really appeals. I agree that seems like a distant prospect now though. Having said all this, the remit of the trial seems to be to establish sentience. In a sense, this is good for Goliath as it would presumably require a quite different hearing to make any decisions about how to actually regulate the gargoyles.
Ed
posted @ Wed, May 31, 2023 2:47:12 am EDT from 31.94.35.186

JURGAN - Good point; the gargoyles having frictions with the NYPD over their past approach to crime-fighting would certainly provide some drama. I doubt that it'd approve of the "drop Dracon then catch him" act from "Protection", for example. (For that matter, I suspect that the NYPD might be uneasy about the clan's current living arrangements, given Xanatos and Fox's both having spent time in prison. Of course, we don't know how much the clan is likely to share with them. I do think it unlikely that they're going to make public the more bizarre elements of their lives - as in Demona, Thailog, the Third Race - including their connections to xanatos, etc. And for now, from a storytelling perspective, I'd prefer the gargoyles' existence - and maybe their being sentient beings, if that gets established at Goliath's hearing - being the only aspect of their lives that makes it into the media, including the Daily Tattler.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 8:53:18 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Jurgan > The booklet does go into biographical info of Ashman and Menken's early lives, and their early career, including 'Little Shop.' It's not focused on extensively as the primary focus is the Disney work, but is definitely covered.
Craig
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 8:30:33 pm EDT from 209.140.33.71

"One complication (again, from a storytelling perspective) is that once the gargoyles are working with the police as a whole, rather than Elisa, things might get too easy for them, though Greg Weisman probably has already worked out plans on how to handle that."

Not sure I agree. If they're officially part of the NYPD, they will be expected to respect the civil liberties of those they confront. That's a big reason why we don't allow vigilantism- it has no oversight.

Also, I appreciate your allusion to "Goliath's sacrifice" not necessarily being his death. A lot of people seemed to take that as a given, but "sacrifice" can have many meanings.

Craig: Sounds like fun. Does it contain anything about Little Shop of Horrors, my favorite musical?
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 8:22:24 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Thanks, Matthew. And no worries, Alex, hope you can make the next one. But speaking of that...

I'm planning another watch party for Juneteenth as that's my next three-day weekend. The question is, what should be watched? Should we continue onto the next batch of episodes? Move to the next commentary (City of Stone)? Pick a few episodes appropriately themed to the holiday?

I'm probably gonna make a poll for the folks in The Gargoyle Nation to make their voices heard, so you're all welcome to join and speak your minds. And feel free to offer thoughts here as well.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 7:52:33 pm EDT from 184.54.103.20

#6 Preview spoilers [SPOILER] Of course, Brooklyn knows that gargoyles are more accepted by 2198, but it's unclear how much he knows. If he's heard that "Goliath's sacrifice" is instrumental in the passing of the Gargoyle Protection Act but doesn't know what year that is, he could be worried it's about to happen. [/SPOILER]
B
B
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 5:20:11 pm EDT from 74.74.246.146

Staying up late tonight so that I can read Chapter 6 the moment it comes out! Very excited!

Great thoughts, Todd. It has long seemed that by 2198, the Manhattan Clan no longer practices any sort of vigilantism and are working quite closely with the NYPD and the UN in order to protect the city. I believe Greg has even hinted that there may be members of the clan that are effectively police officers. I can easily see Broadway eventually becoming a police officer. Maybe the first gargoyle on the force! The next few chapters could be the first steps in that direction. Indeed, we may see the Gargoyles Taskforce evolve from an organization that focuses on containment and capture to one that manages the gargoyle crime fighting activities and membership. Interesting stuff, though probably decades down the road.

I'll be avoiding the room until after I post my first thoughts on Chapter 6. See you then!
Matt
"Well, I'm back..." -Samwise Gamgee, Lord of the Rings
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 3:59:47 pm EDT from 47.233.90.133

Sorry for the double... but there's no way to edit.

Also, forgot to mention last night, but I'm sorry I didn't make the viewing. I really wanted to, but I was catching up with an old friend I hadn't spoken to in years. But I'm really looking forward to the next one.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 12:39:32 pm EDT from 70.48.44.66

I've heard *some* of that, Craig. I'd love to hear Ashman and Menken working out the lyrics. Wonder if that's available anywhere.

I finished American Born Chinese. It was cool. I liked the characters, the humour was actually really funny, action scenes were good. The fantasy/teen themes were pretty at odds, though.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Tue, May 30, 2023 12:34:15 am EDT from 70.48.44.66

Got to give some thanks to Brainiac for the "Awakening" watch along. Here's hoping the next one goes just as well.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, May 29, 2023 7:39:27 pm EDT from 98.248.2.24

Off topic but maybe of interest to some. Driven perhaps by all the recent hubbub about The Little Mermaid remake, as well as Greg titling Gargoyles #4 after the Beauty and the Beast song, I was reading about Howard Ashman, and discovered the existence of a lovely four-CD set from 1994 called 'The Music Behind the Magic.' Discs 1-3 focus on the three Disney/Ashman/Menken collaborations (The Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, and Aladdin). They feature the film versions of the songs interspersed with demos of Ashman and/or Menken singing the songs, often with some earlier different lyrics (and in the case of Aladdin in particular, several songs which were entirely abandoned). Ashman's vocals are a real delight. He sings in character, and clearly has the voices of the characters already in his head long before the actors were even cast. He was a famous perfectionist, and often the final versions would be based on the readings he gave in the demos. Pat Carroll (the voice of Ursula) claimed that Ashman sang "Poor Unfortunate Souls" better than she did (his version is a hoot, as is his "Gaston"). Also of interest are some short "work tape" clips dispersed throughout the set, which give a fascinating insight into Menken and Ashman's working process. Ashman would bring the lyrics, then Menken would riff on the piano while Ashman sang until they hit a groove they both liked. One such clip shows them figuring out the opening melody for "Under the Sea." Really wonderful stuff.

The fourth disc is their original full(*) demo for the proposed Aladdin songs, representing a very different conception of the film as a buddy comedy. Several of these abandoned songs later made it into the Broadway stage version.

(*) OK, not entirely "full": they left off the opening version of "Arabian Nights." I suppose Disney didn't want to include the infamous "cut off your ear" line. But the "Arabian Nights" demo can be found on youtube, courtesy of a Library of Congress release called 'Howard Sings Ashman,' and is definitely worth a listen as it's really fun, and includes deleted verses, including some which were recycled for the 'Aladdin' TV show theme.

There's also an oversized 11"x11" 52-page accompanying book which has lovely preliminary artwork from the films, lyrics, information on how the music was created, and a blurb on each track by Menken.

Maybe this set is (very) old news to some, but I'd never heard of it before. Definitely worth checking out for fans of those films if you can find it.
Craig
posted @ Mon, May 29, 2023 5:39:19 pm EDT from 209.140.43.43

Sorry for the double post, but I had a few thoughts on the direction of "Here in Manhattan" that I decided to share.

The evidence in the issues we've got so far (plus Greg Weimsan's remarks at "Voices From the Eyrie" is that we're going to be seeing some major development in the gargoyles' interactions with the human community of Manhattan. I think it safe to say that one of these will be their crime-fighting activities.

While the focus at present is on the humans dealing with the question of whether gargoyles are sentient or not (with Margot firmly in the "not" camp), once it becomes increasingly clear that the gargoyles are intelligent beings, the business of their patrolling the city at night will have to be addressed. We've had discussions here about the gargoyles' crime-fighting being vigilantism and how that would affect Elisa (who's been working with them) or the criminals whom the gargoyles have fought. But another question is, once the gargoyles' true nature gets established at Goliath's hearing (which, we can assume, will indeed happen), how the city government will respond to the gargoyles' crime-fighting.

Forbidding the gargoyles to engage in further such acts would be a likely real-life response, but would obviously mean big problems for the story; if the gargoyles aren't allowed to patrol the city any more, what adventures can you give them? (The first season took place before the gargoyles took their oath to protect the city, and they still managed to have plenty of adventures, but those were based largely around their adjusting to their new surroundings.) You could use that to end the story (especially if Dynamite doesn't get permission from Disney to do more issues past #12), but would certainly make an unsatisfactory ending to the series (up there with the original ending for "Angels in the Night").

A more likely (from the storytelling perspective) approach would be for the city government to work out some sort of deal with the gargoyles, presumably requiring them to work with the NYPD under supervision. I'm not enough of an expert on police procedure to imagine what the details would likely be. One complication (again, from a storytelling perspective) is that once the gargoyles are working with the police as a whole, rather than Elisa, things might get too easy for them, though Greg Weisman probably has already worked out plans on how to handle that.

Of course, we should probably not expect the outcome of the hearing to be too big a leap forward in human-gargoyle relations. The Gargoyle Minority Protection Act is probably a long way off still, especially since a key element of it was to be "Goliath's sacrifice", and I doubt that Greg's in a hurry to kill Goliath off (unless the sacrifice is, not his death, but his refusal to let Brooklyn break him out of jail). We don't know, certainly, how public the outcome of Goliath's hearing will be - though with his capture being public knowledge (at least in the Daily Tattler; we don't know if the more serious newspapers have also covered it), I doubt they'd be able to keep it entirely secret. Which raises the question of what happens when the findings of the hearing get released to the press....
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, May 29, 2023 9:37:50 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Second.

Trivia note of the week: May 31, when "Gargoyles" #6 is scheduled to come out, is also World Otter Day this year, dedicated to otters everywhere (including the ones with a dark side).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, May 29, 2023 8:29:31 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

First!

Missed the convo on issue 5 last month as I was out of town for a funeral when it came out. Issue 6 is this week, expect to get some answers.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Mon, May 29, 2023 12:24:43 am EDT from 69.247.67.113