Craig> In shows like this and most superhero shows, protagonists that are heavily involved in heroics or strangeness outside the norms of everyday life, well their lives outside of heroics or everyday life don't get a lot of focus. Often times it's used to highlight how much the characters have changed and how what used to be their normal life and normal problems aren't as big anymore.

For example, early on in Young Justice there was some focus given to their lives outside of the Team but that decreased more and more as the bigger picture of the plot came into being. The times that it does focus on more than just their lives as superheroes is usually when the weirdness of the other half of their lives comes into the civilian side of things.

The Spectacular Spider-Man might be one of the few series when the two parts of Peter's life aren't entirely excluded and when they do intersect, it's usually for the sake of drama (and not always based around Peter's life, so that's unique).

But for the point with Eliza, I'm not sure if she has many friends outside of her police work. She made detective by 25 which suggests she went straight into being a cop as soon as she was able. Maybe she had friends in college but didn't keep up with them as soon as she started her life as a cop. Mind, this is all speculation.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 10:48:12 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

"
On the subject of Elisa's life outside the gargoyles, it would be interesting to someday meet a friend or two of hers. This is one instance where I feel the series didn't flesh her out quite as well as it might have. I get that she's extremely overworked and doesn't have much free time, but you'd think a cool intelligent witty pretty 25-year-old would have a few human friends she hangs out with, people from the force, friends from school, whatever."
Craig, I have been wondering this for years. Does Elisa really have no friends, let alone a female friend group? Seems a little wild, bc she has way too much emotional intelligence, and is too fun, to not have friends even with her work schedule. It makes one wonder.
Ftmb
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 10:40:30 pm EDT from 100.36.132.121

Todd > I don't believe Cagney ever appeared in Goliath Chronicles after "The Journey." I think there's just about a 100% chance the makers of TGC would have forgotten he existed. (Maybe Cary Bates would remember since he was the credited writer on that final episode?)

It is a credit to Greg and the season 2 team that Cagney was acknowledged during the World Tour, something that other writers/producers might have easily forgotten amidst everything else. It was certainly something that eleven-year-old me was anxious about. That two+ months (in terms of airdates) between "Avalon" and "Kingdom" was a worrisome time.

On the subject of Elisa's life outside the gargoyles, it would be interesting to someday meet a friend or two of hers. This is one instance where I feel the series didn't flesh her out quite as well as it might have. I get that she's extremely overworked and doesn't have much free time, but you'd think a cool intelligent witty pretty 25-year-old would have a few human friends she hangs out with, people from the force, friends from school, whatever.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 10:11:33 pm EDT from 24.46.160.168

As a side-note, in the "abandoning New York" scenario, I really hope that Elisa would have taken Cagney to Chicago with her and Goliath. The poor cat was already "abandoned" once (though involuntarily; Elisa didn't know when she first got into that boat how long she and Goliath would be away....) - and thank goodness Broadway came to his rescue.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 9:21:26 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

I suspect that the "Goliath Chronicles" production team meant the original ending to be more like the ending to a family sitcom where the members of the family all move away from each other. Of course, since all we have is a brief summary from Greg Weisman, as opposed to the original documents, it's still guesswork.

I do recall one or two viewers here, years ago, saying that they'd have preferred such an ending (in a sense) to the one we got, because it seemed to overcome the public's anti-gargoyle prejudice too easily. (The way the anti-gargoyle element in "The Goliath Chronicles" was handled, probably the only realistic outcome would have been for the gargoyles to get killed by the Quarrymen, and that wouldn't have made it past Standards and Practices.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 7:57:55 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

You are right about how a bad ending can destroy all the audience's good will, How I Met Your Mother will go down in tv history because of the last few minutes and how it undoes everything the series worked towards.

Personally, the Clan leaving New York could make for an interesting cliffhanger ending for the season, but it would be a little unsatisfactory for a series finale. I think a good comparison would be the Ninja Turtles having to flee New York after the Shredder's attack or Star Fleet having to abandon Deep Space Nine before The Dominion's occupation. Something that suggests the heroes are down but not out and once they've had time to collect themselves they will return.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 6:15:39 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Greg’s right that terrible endings can eclipse everything else. “Veronica Mars” had a small but obsessive niche audience and he absolutely bludgeoned it to death with the end of season 4 - I don’t think I’ve ever seen a fandom literally snuffed out overnight. As far as I can see, nobody talks about it now - not fans, not the stars, not even the creator. Personally, I found the ending to “Sherlock” so dreadful I haven’t been back to revisit the previous episodes since, despite having really enjoyed the show and generally loving Steven Moffat’s work (especially his first series, “Press Gang”). It is possible to have an ending so staggeringly bad that it blights everything else. Now, there was a narrative behind TGC’s awfulness that might have given the fandom an out but

Alex: 2198 isn’t necessarily my first choice either but I think it’s overwhelmingly the one that would be easiest to transition to animation. The comics could continue to tell the story of the present day and you wouldn’t have issues with when to set it etc. As for overwriting the comics with animations, I really don’t want to see that. Greg has taken care to craft these as comic books and although it’s true that for the most part until recently he’s stuck to the conventions of 3-issues-to-an-episode, even within that there are some things that are completely off-the-wall.

As for Elisa… I love Elisa but personally, I think Chavez has every right to be absolutely furious at her. You can’t have police officers allying with vigilantes on the sly. She’s lied to Maria for years and frankly it gives Maria very little credit that she didn’t explain the situation much earlier - what if she could have convened a hearing on gargoyle rights in 1994, long before the Hunters blew up the police clock tower to get to the clan and without the aggravation of Goliath being in prison (with two separate break-ins)? From our point of view, we’re in Elisa’s corner and we’re rooting for her but I really can’t see her job is sustainable for very long at all.
Ed
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 3:29:58 pm EDT from 5.159.125.189

Todd > Greg said that when he was given a deadline for the first season 3 script, it was already a week overdue (I believe he said a week). Literally, the cliche of a boss saying, “Give it to me last week.” So I’m sure there were a lot of cases where they were under the gun and just went with the first idea (“Bronx befriends an Amish kid? Yeah, sure, sounds great.”) It’s also unlikely that they had time to watch much of the first two seasons. I’d guess they were mostly going off the series bible and Greg’s notes.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 2:45:40 pm EDT from 166.198.251.4

I suspect that the new production team saw the clan leaving Manhattan and scattering as just a way of saying "The series is over", without thinking out the implications of it. (Probably mostly a case of it being a "rush job"; I still suspect that a lot of the poor decisions the "Goliath Chronicles" made were a case of "We've got a deadline coming up, so we've got to go for the first thing we can think of, and if it doesn't make much sense, it's better than missing the deadline while we tried to think of something better".)

Admittedly, we don't know for certain that they had intended the gargoyles to give up their hopes of making peace with the humans in Manhattan, though the bit about Elisa changing her name suggests it was a case of "fleeing in defeat". (So does Xanatos's offer in the actual episode of moving to another city and trying again. At least "Angels in the Night" included no suggestions of the clan splitting up.)

I liked Jurgan's comparison of the ending in "Enter Macbeth" to that of "Angels in the Night". Of course, abandoning the castle was a different manner. It was just an old stone building (I admit that I wouldn't normally use that kind of description for castles, which I'm fond of; I was able to sympathize all the more with Goliath's reluctance to leave because I like castles), with the only other people living in it besides themselves being Xanatos and Owen, who were their adversaries. Not much of a protectorate, as a result; the part most worth protecting would have been the clan themselves. But Manhattan was a big city with lots of humans, a community. Abandoning it wouldn't have been comparable.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 8:47:54 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

This is a tricky bit here in terms of both the vigilantism conducted by the gargoyles, Elisa's involvement, and the breaking of oaths sworn as an officer of the law as well as the Constitutional rights of those arrested. Case in point, the clan's actions in "Deadly Force" are almost entirely done on their own accord (with just a little bit of prodding down by Owen), the arrest of Dracon is done without any collaboration.

Then in "Protection" the gargoyles do act in collaboration with Elisa, but mostly to help sell Elisa's cover as part of an elaborate sting operation, one that included Chavez also going undercover. And considering that was the trap that's kept Dracon in prison, Chavez would herself be under scrutiny and possibly be reprimanded if not thrown out by her own superiors.

In any case, considering the NYPD's own problematic image it's actually refreshing that the ethics of police law being bent for the actual service and protection of the citizenry rather than for reinforcing the Blue Wall of Silence.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 7:47:47 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

I think Captain Chavez has always been an eminently reasonable boss, even when she knows Elisa is hiding things from her. It would feel like a huge departure for her character to change. Although “unreasonable authority figure” storylines are appealing (in part because so many of those type people sadly exist in real life), for me, the more interesting way to go is to address the fact that Elisa—an extremely moral character and overall a great cop—has broken her sworn oaths several times by using the gargoyles to gather evidence or do other things that she can’t do. Her methods of achieving justice have sometimes taken an “ends justifies the means” approach that is incompatible with the constitutional rights of her arrestees and the values she swore to uphold. So, her superiors wouldn’t be at all unreasonable to discipline her if all that came to light. The question to me is, if her status as a cop comes under fire, would she feel that she had done the right thing? What were her own self-analysis look like? That’s the more interesting question for me.
Craig
posted @ Sun, Aug 20, 2023 12:28:18 am EDT from 166.198.251.4

YJ season 3 had some unreasonable authority figures. Batman was an unethical manipulator throughout that whole season and is rightly called out for it in the finale. I don't think he's ever written one who goes as far as "selfish boss who deliberately screws over his subordinates."
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 11:58:17 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Man, I would be SO down for an arc where Elisa is pitted against her superiors at the NYPD and is forced to stand by her alliance with the Gargoyles. That sounds super exciting and it's Hill Street Blues as hell which makes it AWESOME. (Because Hill Street Blues is *awesome*)

I love stuff like that so much.

I think Greg dislikes unreasonable authority figures as a trope generally (or at least he's always avoided them in everything I've seen) but Chief Daniels and Furillo was one of my favourite dynamics in HSB and it'd be cool to see something like that in Gargoyles.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 11:44:11 pm EDT from 70.48.45.64

"On the other hand as I think I stated before, Thrill of the Hunt has to come first as Demona in Temptation refers to Lexington showing himself to The Pack, and Jackal & Hyena encountering the clan again."

This isn't really true IMO. Thrill is referenced in Temptation, but it's a fleeting reference that could easily be removed. The trio's triptych could be rearranged without too much trouble (though you'd have to remove any Elisa scenes from the first two in case Deadly Force aired early). Likewise, The Edge, Long Way to Morning, and Her Brother's Keeper form a similar triptych that spotlight Xanatos, Hudson, and Elisa, respectively, and could also be shuffled. The first season basically has Awakening, Enter Macbeth, and Reawakening as tentpoles and the two triptychs between as tiers that, with a few modifications, could be shuffled if necessary.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 11:27:26 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

There is a precedent for something like the proposed TGC ending, and that's Enter Macbeth. The clan decide that they're no longer able to defend their home and are forced to find a new place to live. Crucially, though, the tone is not "screw this place, we don't need it," it's "we're retreating for now, but we're not giving up the fight." It wouldn't have the tone of finality the new crew clearly wanted, the show would be known as having ended on a frustrating cliffhanger.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 10:00:39 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Sorry for the double post. Just had to add: perhaps the worst part of that ending is the clan splitting up. If they did have to flee Manhattan out of self-preservation (which is a bad ending ideologically for this series, but a realistic possibility), of course they would stay together wherever they went. The idea of clan is more important than almost anything else for the species. The idea that they would voluntarily separate is so wrong.

The idea of Elisa leaving NYC is interesting, though. It does beg the question: if forced to choose between her life as an NYPD detective (so ingrained into her identity from childhood) and her love for Goliath and the gargoyles, which would she choose? She's already on a rather slippery slope as we've discussed previously, with some of the stuff she's covered up, the lies she's told the department, the (frankly) due process violations she's committed in terms of outsourcing investigations to essentially vigilantes. I do wonder if there's going to be some sort of reckoning for her eventually where she has to make a hard choice.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 9:46:18 pm EDT from 173.229.64.1

I don't think the original proposed Goliath Chronicles ending is inherently terrible as an act of storytelling. It's inherently terrible as an ending for the Gargoyles franchise, but it could work fine for some other series. As Todd says, it's not like the show glorified the Quarrymen in the manner of Birth of a Nation, or ever portrayed them as heroic (if anything, they went too far in the opposite direction, portraying them as purely evil with no subtext or nuance whatsoever, no exploration of where prejudice comes from in the human psyche). If executed well, the ending could convey the idea that prejudice will always exist, and our heroes have to retreat for now out of self preservation to live to fight another day. That's honestly sadly realistic. Bleak, sure, probably too bleak for a kids' show (although some kids' shows in that era had pretty bleak endings...see Dinosaurs and David the Gnome). But realistic.

Of course, based on the evidence of everything else they did, it's doubtful the Goliath Chronicles team would have been able to pull off such a nuanced and delicate ending effectively, and it could have sent some kind of strange messaging. Definitely for the best that they didn't try. And as I said, purely in the context of Gargoyles, it would have undermined so much of what had come before, where the series' themes were always viewed through Goliath's inherent optimism about the basic goodness of humanity.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 9:24:41 pm EDT from 173.229.64.2

In terms of bad guy wins in the end and KKK expies winning in the end. Yeah, it's hard to find a story where such groups of blatant bigotry and murderous prejudice get a happy ending.
But you know what's really easy to find? Stories about tackling bigotry and murderous prejudice that end in a weak, "at least we got a moral victory" sort of way.

The Man in the High Castle series ends with a LOT of Nazis and Imperialist Japanese getting away with their crimes and whatever hope the last minutes of the finale hints at falls apart with just a few minutes of thought.

Mississippi Burning, which is a dramatized retelling of the murder of Civil Rights activists in 1964 ends with most of the conspirators getting a relative slap on the wrist and it all but states that attacks against the black community will only get worse after the FBI pack up and leave. And that's not even getting into the fact that the FBI during the Civil Rights certainly weren't the white saviors the film presents.

Even The Hate U Give ends on a depressingly low moral victory note. The story ends with a "We can't hold a police officer accountable for the death of a kid nor stop the media from assassinating the character of the victim. But we can oust a black gang leader from our community and bring him to justice."

Tales like these bring to mind that "You want to protect the world but you don't want to change it." The day is saved, but not everyone is. And as long as the status quo remains the day will need to be saved again and not everyone will be saved alongside the day.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 8:58:53 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Ed> 2198 isn't my favourite spin-off concept, I'd prefer to see more of the main series (though that's purely theoretical).

Lesse... if it was a 12 episode order (probably split into two releases 6 months apart or something -- I'm actually not sure how Disney+ handles it's original animation releases, but this is how Netflix does it).

Then...

We'd have:

* The Journey? (Not sure how you handle this one -- I think here you tell a new version of the story from a different perspective or something. Same events, same information, new story.) Honestly, thus far, in SLG and in Dynamite the Quarrymen have done so little they might get away with just skipping it altogether. Introduce the Quarrymen with the Hacker/Jon Canmore scene from later and have them talk about the important stuff.
*Thailog Halloween episode & double date (I don't think this is a multiparter) - Goliath/Elisa focus
* I think they'd skip the World Tour redux
* Rock of Ages story - Lexington/Hudson focus (I think this is possible in a single episode)
* Timedancer episode (you could... maybe adapt this into one episode, might need to be a two parter) - Brooklyn focus

Here in Manhattan is a tough one. It's not segmented quite as much.

*The first one's easy, Talon baby story is an episode. Probably change some things up with the structure, but it works pretty well as a self-contained story. - ... kinda everyone focus?
*Things get hard here -- I think nowadays you can just do sort of piece meal storylines where we get pieces of an arc. And those story beats aren't going to be that different from how the comic is organized. So likely it'd mostly be a pretty straight adaption -- all the Dino Dracon stuff with him getting out of prison and the kidnapping of the kids, with the Goliath getting captured by the NYPD as a cliffhanger. That's one. - Goliath/Hudson focus
*Then we have probably an episode focused on Dino Dracon & Antoinette & Broadway & the attack on slaughter (with Broadway and Lexington foiling it) That's two. - Broadway focus I guess
*Then it's hard to say because I don't know what happens after that. I think the trial itself will probably be an episode? Total wild shot in the dark guess. But I think it makes sense. Maybe have the Demona stuff there to reintroduce her.

So by my count that's 7-8 episodes of a 12 episode run (in theory).

That's a total of hypotheticals and I'm making a lot of assumptions about how production would go and who would be producing it, but I think those are mostly fair assumptions.

And... ultimately, I think you're kinda right Ed. That's a *huge* chunk of story that's just adaptations of an existing comic book. But it'd be so fun to see those stories fully realised in animated form.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 8:11:05 pm EDT from 70.48.45.64

I don't know if "Birth of a Nation" would be the strongest comparison (apart from the Quarrymen having definite KKK similarities); "Birth of a Nation", from what I've read about it, was definitely rooting for the Ku Klux Klan, while the proposed ending for "Angels in the Night" would have still sided with the gargoyles. It'd just have them give up and run away, but presumably without glorifying the Quarrymen.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 8:07:55 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

JURGAN> "There are stories I like that have a tragic ending where the bad guys win"

There's a difference between stories where the bad guy wins... and stories where the KKK expy wins. I love plenty of movies and TV shows where the bad guy wins.

Now let's imagine the world where that ending happened... it would be infamous. So infamous that it might overshadow anything done in the entire two seasons that we do care about. TGC is already infamous, but not on that level. This would have been something else entirely. The type of thing that would have become internet legend. YouTube videos a decade later. Essays. Articles.

This would have completely salted the Earth. I'll take it a step farther... I doubt we'd be seeing the NECA action figures of today, the Dynamite comics of today, etc. I doubt we'd have had the SLG comic. We have have gotten the season one DVD, but maybe not the other two. And while I think we'd have had the Gathering of the Gargoyles conventions... would we have had thirteen?

I realize this might seem over the top, but an ending like that wouldn't have just been bad and influence, it'd have been outright toxic. The property would have been radioactive. Like I said, "Birth of a Nation" but with gargoyles. It might have even eventually ended up locked in the vault alongside "Song of the South"... and I don't think too many people would have, in this case, been distinguishing between the Weisman era and the post Weisman era.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:48:10 pm EDT from 67.189.167.107

It took me a few moments to get the bit about "Norse-flavored accoutrements", before I remembered the hammers. Reminds me again of my wondering how Goliath and his clan would have gotten along with Thor, if their paths had ever crossed; on the one hand, he's a protector-figure, like them, but that hammer....

I'd consider that original ending a "victory-of-a-sort", in that the Quarrymen would have succeeded in driving the gargoyles out of Manhattan - but their real goal was to kill them, not to send them fleeing. (And I think we can safely assume that the Quarrymen genuinely succeeding in killing the gargoyles would have never made it past Standards and Practices. A "seeming to kill them" in "Angels in the Night", yes, because it turned out that those were fakes, courtesy of Xanatos; Xanatos killing Bronx off-stage and Hudson and the trio probably perishing in the cross-fire between Xanatos's security and the NYPD - not to mention Elisa definitely being killed - in "For It May Come True..." because it was all an illusion, yes, but not a genuine "smashed the clan to fragments".)

ED - Good point on why the new production team might have decided to dispense with storylines. (The closest we got to it was clips from "Runaways" and "Broadway Goes to Hollywood" in "And Justice For All", and a reference to Goliath's trial in "Angels in the Night".)

My copy of "Dark Ages" #2 arrived in the mail today. Two little things I noticed.

1. The title page left out "Gargoyles: Dark Ages", giving just the "Alliance", the chapter title, and the credits. Did anyone else with a physical issue have the same?

2. There's an ad in the back for the book collection of "Here in Manhattan", which states that it'll be published in September. Apparently the news of the delay didn't reach whoever drew up their advertisement in time. (There's also an ad for the first book collection of the Dynamite "Darkwing Duck" comics.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:48:06 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Great stuff. Thanks for the share
Retail Concrete - [bnoyes at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:07:55 pm EDT from 180.191.198.194

There is an unfortunate trend of hate groups that appropriate Norse influences.
Heck, you've even got the letter Q used back then (see: Quisling).
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 5:51:35 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Well, when you put it that way...

There are stories I like that have a tragic ending where the bad guys win, but it would be pretty dark for a Saturday Morning Cartoon.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 1:21:35 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

Masterdramon: Fantastic - thanks for sharing that.

Alex: I must admit, I have no interest in a revival that retells stories since “Hunter’s Moon”. And depending on the season length, that may still not catch us up. I feel like if there’s a new animation, it has to be 2198.

Craig: To be fair, Thomson and Lewald were probably being responsible producers following a brief by not including inter-episode continuity. After all, Greg had already got in trouble for the delay in “Enter Macbeth” and the big delay in delivering all 52 episodes — of course, in the latter case, this was a problem of their own design since Greg told them they couldn’t do 52 but I’m not sure the executives would have seen it that way. Given TGC’s incredibly tight production schedule, the lack of any continuity may have been a concession to avoid the third season having (perceived) delivery issues like S1 and S2. (And let’s be honest, even if there were arcs, they’d have been rubbish. At least the stories had the advantage of being unmemorable as well as not very good which has made it easier for them to be ignored and overwritten. As for it being a finale, I’ve not seen the TGC ending but to be honest, they could always boot up another season if needed. If they’re scattered, there’s some call to arms to kick off the season; if they’re peaceful then, I dunno, Lord Dregg invades.

Antiyonder: Man, I need to rewatch BttF. It’s been decades.

Greg: Great point, though I’m also creeped out at Greg’s foreknowledge that the Quarry-types would be into both Norse-influenced accoutrements and the letter Q…
Ed
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 12:50:15 pm EDT from 5.159.125.189

An ending... a final ending... where the hood-wearing KKK expies are victorious.

Remember, this was part of an executive approved premise. They were going to do it. The Ku Klux Klan expies were going to win. That would have been the final ending to this series.

I want to know two things.... who's idea this was, and why? And what kind of message they thought this was sending. Because doing a cartoon version of "Birth of a Nation" but with "Gargoyles" sounds pretty horrendous.
Greg Bishansky - [<----- Voices from the Eyrie - Gargoyles Podcast]
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 10:20:34 am EDT from 67.189.167.107

MASTERDRAMON - I googled Shakespeare and "Young Justice" together, and found the bit about Forager which you mentioned; that does indeed seem to be the reason for Shakespeare's name making the list.

I'd still like to find out how the "Goliath Chronicles" production team would have justified, in-story, the gargoyles just giving up on their protectorate and abandoning it. Maybe Elisa pointing out in a bitter tone (given that according to Greg's report, she'd be abandoning Manhattan too) that a city which keeps on swallowing whole Castaway's lies about the gargoyles even after he was caught firing heavy artillery in the downtown area without any consideration for public safety isn't worth protecting.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 9:02:56 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

I had forgotten about Forager and Forager's Romeo and Juliet bit. Mostly because the stinger I remember most from Rocket's arc is their unique birthday song.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:27:19 am EDT from 73.222.9.213

Todd: In Season 4's Rocket arc, Forager returns to New Genesis and winds up courting a female member of his species. When they are required to part, Forager gifts her with "The Complete Works of William Shakespeare" and notes it's his favorite book.

Since he's mentioned by full name in that line, Billy Shakes meets the criteria for inclusion in Greg's countback.

At least, I presume that's the reason. There are a number of other Shakespeare allusions in the series that the YJ Wiki has collected, which you can read here: https://youngjustice.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_references_to_William_Shakespeare

The most fun was definitely the "tags" of the last two episodes of said arc, which involve the two Foragers reciting lines from Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet but modified for their culture's...unique speech patterns.
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Sat, Aug 19, 2023 7:06:29 am EDT from 98.150.138.224

Honestly, I kind of wish TGC had gone with the "gargoyles abandon Manhattan" ending. It's out-of-character, but so what? At that point, they'd changed so much that they might as well have taken a big swing and put their own mark on it rather than playing it safe. This is hindsight, of course. At the time there was still a chance the show might have come back and TGC would have been canon, so I understand Greg trying to protect the integrity of his creation.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 11:40:30 pm EDT from 69.247.67.113

MATTHEW - For that matter, I remember a couple of references in the first season (I believe) of "The Mysteries of Udolpho" (probably remembered now largely as an example of the kind of books Jane Austen poked fun at in "Northanger Abbey").
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 9:47:46 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd> In a surprising move, Greg shifted mostly away from Shakespeare and referenced other bits of literature. Season 2 had Adam Strange quoting Lewis Carroll to some confused Rannians and Artemis' arc in Season 4 of course comes from titles like "A Tale of Two Cities" and "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings."

But there's nothing to the extent of the cast in Gargoyles or the MidSummer Night's Dream arc in Spectacular Spider-Man. You mentioned Queen Perdita but she predates the show and first appeared in DC Showcase: Green Arrow. Though that was written by Greg so there's a good chance she was named for the character, even if the plot of "Coldhearted" makes the character influence more obvious.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 9:36:04 pm EDT from 73.222.9.213

Sorry for the double post, but Greg Weisman just included Shakespeare in his "Young Justice Character Countback". Does anybody know when Shakespeare showed up in "Young Justice"? The closest I can think of - and that's more a subtle allusion than an explicit mention - was Perdita being introduced in an episode which had heavy snow across North America; the original Perdita appeared in "The Winter's Tale".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 9:05:15 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

From what I've heard, "The Goliath Chronicles" was a desperate slot-filler; they apparently needed a boys' action-adventure show for ABS's Saturday morning line-up, and a continuation of "Gargoyles" (if under new staff) apparently seemed like the best way of doing that. Which might have contributed to the decision to let the last episode of the season be the series finale as well.

The scattering of the clan would have definitely ended the series (and on a very downbeat note). "Angels in the Night" could have allowed for some sort of continuation (the gargoyles would still be protecting New York), but the circumstances after that would definitely require a very different tone. Most likely, with the bulk of the public having accepted the gargoyles - and presumably also their telling their side of the story - the clan would be more like "super-hero celebrities" after that, and we could have wound up (if there'd been another season after that) with a more conventional super-hero series (probably complete with the drama generally revolving around either that episode's villain or ordinary citizens getting inadvertently involved in the gargoyles' crime-fighting).

Speaking of which, I wonder how Goliath's hearing in the next issue will affect the public's knowledge (and perception) of the gargoyles. Probably not that much, judging from the description of the upcoming Halloween special, where: a) Halloween's the one night of the year where the gargoyles can safely roam the city, since everyone will think they're in costume, and b) the Quarrymen are active and preparing a major assault on the clan. More likely, they'll still be seen as strange and terrifying creatures by the majority of the public. I certainly doubt, no matter how the events in "Here in Manhattan"'s final issues end, we'll be seeing anything like a public and official alliance between the gargoyles and the NYPD.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 8:22:13 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Todd > Interesting point. I wonder if the producers/writers of The Goliath Chronicles always knew that the show would only last the one season. Both of their finale ideas (the one they abandoned and the one they used) are pretty final. The show could have admittedly continued on from "Angels in the Night" with very different story dynamics, but it doesn't seem like that was the plan. The tone of the final scene seems very definitively "series finale," not "season finale." The abandoned idea would have been even more final; it's difficult to imagine would a subsequent season would have looked like with the clan dispersed throughout the world.

It would be somewhat interesting to hear Cary Bates talk about his experience on The Goliath Chronicles, given that he wrote three episodes.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 1:12:24 pm EDT from 24.46.160.7

CRAIG - And in particular, the "reset" made the progress towards the humans of New York realizing the truth about the gargoyles less convincing - though I've wondered whether the fact that the original ending was to have the gargoyles simply give up and flee Manhattan might have had something to do with it.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 9:17:21 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Double posting and in relation to the comment about Back to the Future II revisting the first movie literally and the fun novelty of such, it also does take advantage several time pretty well. Besides the fact that Doc and Marty have to avoid being seen by themselves.

Namely Marty going for the Almanac when George punches out Biff, as well as Marty getting to see that happen since he was just getting out of a locked trunk in the last movie.

Also besides letting Biff's teasing get to him, getting screwed over by his others elf opening the door he was by. More on this in a bit.

Wasn't sure how known it is to anyone here, II was at one point going to be longer with the reduced time spent in 1955 and the Old West being included. Some differences to accomplish that:

1. When Part I Marty opens the door, it is Biff who gets knocked out by him and we would find out he had some brass knuckles on him. So Doc would be struck by lightning while near the school.

2. A detail about this is still left in the film. But originally Old Biff gives his younger self the Almanac at the high school in the evening. This is actually why the last time displayed after he leaves the DeLorean says 6:38 PM.

But the possible reason given as it stands is him just exploring 1955 Hill Valley due to nostalgia or not wanting to alert someone to the time machine.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Aug 18, 2023 12:31:15 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

But yeah, a major comic catch up which I finally took pictures of with some other goods, and a few Bingo wins.

https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-12-977623923

https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-13-977624184

https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-14-977624657

https://www.deviantart.com/antiyonder/art/Collection-Addition-Picture-15-977625052
Antiyonder
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2023 5:29:46 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

The "reset button" nature of The Goliath Chronicles is definitely one of its most disappointing overall weaknesses (individual episodes like "Generations" or "A Bronx Tail" have their own specific huge weaknesses, but the reset button is a weakness of the season as a whole). One of the things that made Gargoyles great is that things did change, characters evolved, etc., in contrast to most other animated shows. That was probably some of Greg's Hill Street Blues influence.

Interestingly, X-Men (the Fox show) was one of the early animated shows for kids that DID have some strong continuity and serialization. So it seems unlikely that the decision to shy away from that came from producer Scott Thomas and story editor Eric Lewald. I suspect that it was a request from Disney and/or ABC to strip that element out.
Craig
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2023 2:46:05 pm EDT from 24.46.160.67

I'll admit that, while the focus on the "anti-gargoyle prejudice" element had a lot of problems (including my continuing suspicion that the new team were seeing it too much through an "X-Men" prism and overlooked the differences between gargoyles and "X-Men" mutants), it was understandable. It was the biggest loose end after "Hunter's Moon", for a start - the public know about the gargoyles now, and they're still alarmed (though the last two scenes took care to shift the audience's focus off that thread being unresolved). Not to mention that Greg's own "lead-in" episode, "The Journey", had focused on it, which probably made it easier for the new team to conclude that that was what "The Goliath Chronicles" should be about.

I've mentioned, of course, the problems with their approach before. The gargoyles never seemed to make any progress; at the start of each episode, almost all the humans in New York were back to hating them (it probably made it easier for the production team to air the episodes in any order, apart from "The Journey" being the first and "Angels in the Night" the last - and it also gave them the opportunity for a "darkest hour" tone to "Angels in the Night" for additional drama), generally without explanation. The Quarrymen degenerated after "The Journey", without any explanation, into an army of corrupt thugs with no explanation for what happened to all the ordinary citizens signing up in the first episode, whose stratagems depended on the gargoyles being noble protectors. And so on.

The premise in "Ransom" did have a certain appeal; the gargoyles becoming a campaign issue in the mayoral race, with the challenger accusing the incumbent mayor of not doing enough about the gargoyle situation and vowing that, if elected, he'd put a stop to it. The execution, on the other hand.... We're all familiar with the "Fox out of character" element, but I also couldn't help thinking that another problem was an ordinary politician like Doyle breaking into the Eyrie Building, past Xanatos's defenses like that. If someone that low on the "villain hierarchy" can do it, practically anyone could - and yet it never got brought up.

I do suspect that some of the changes made might have stemmed from a belief that "Gargoyles" had gotten too fantastic in Season Two and that it needed to go back to the only fantasy element being the gargoyles (though they wound up using Titania in "For It May Come True" and the New Olympians in "Seeing Isn't Believing"), in which case, switching to something mundane like a mayoral race over Oberon's Children would seem to them like a step in the right direction. I've even seen an occasional argument in defense of "The Goliath Chronicles" on that basis (though I think that the way the anti-gargoyle attitude among the New Yorkers and with the Quarrymen was handled - see above - was more far-fetched, in some ways, than faerie-folk or magic).
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2023 9:15:25 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

Well, more likely they took them into account and either couldn't break them/make them work because they were probably really specific to Greg's sensibilities. Or just for budget/finance reasons.

Like the multi-trickster storyline sounds really, *really* hard to break. You've got like 8 characters, tons of moving pieces, you'd need to re-introduce Avalon, the third race, all the different trickster characters, Oberon and Titania probably. Explain Puck & Owen. Plus Puck makes the story extremely difficult because he's so powerful (the lame "oh Owen's in a coma" or whatever they did in Ransom was so goofy).

I'm not saying Ransom is good or they were right to do it, but I get why they maybe wanted to simplify it to just "evil Mayor", especially since they *clearly* (and annoyingly) wanted to focus more on the prejudice angle of the storytelling.

Which kind of raises the question of if Gargoyles was revived, where's the jumping off point? Do we get reimaginings of the SLG and Dynamite storylines or do we just let them be and jump in at the end point of whatever the last big thing was. I don't know if the comic storylines really adapt super well as just straight translations from comic to TV episode. But I think it makes more sense to adapt them (and frankly I'd personally like to see them adapted) than to just move forward.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2023 2:49:09 am EDT from 70.27.163.9

So basically, the new team skimmed through them.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Aug 17, 2023 12:49:50 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

5. To the extent that the first two you mentioned were "inspired" by ideas that I had suggested in my notes to the new team but wound up having absolutely NOTHING to do with what I suggested, you could argue that MANY TGC episodes were inspired by my notes to the new team, including the Proteus episode, the trial, the Illuminati, a Bronx episode, a magical fantasy episode, etc. In a way, that made them even more frustrating for me.

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=188
Masterdramon - [kmc12009 at mymail dot pomona dot edu]
"It can be a hobby, or really, anything else, but I love when people have fun doing what they love. It’s like they’re sparkling." - Marin Kitagawa
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 11:47:38 pm EDT from 98.150.138.224

I imagine the TGC episodes that were based on ideas Greg gave the creative team were based on rough outlines and concepts, nothing like a full outline even. Probably literally just like... "Angela/Demona story where Demona lets Angela down", probably with more plot detail than that, but not *much* more. And I doubt they used it.

From what we've seen, likely the Genesis Undone stuff was likely based on some rough kernel of what became Masque and the other two SLG Halloween comic issues. We know the Timedancer story became Runaways and the multi-trickster story became Ransom. I *imagine* Broadway does Hollywood was based on... something. Maybe that one was just to have a Broadway story as a companion to the other two. For it May Come True also feels like it's based on... something. Very roughly. Greg LOVES his dreamscapes, so this does feel like a concept he'd come up with even if I think it's probably something that got lost on the cutting room floor.

It FEELS like a story that would happen during Elisa's break-up with Goliath during the front end of the SLG comic, Goliath, distraught over Elisa breaking up with him wonders what his life would be like if he were human and Titania indulges him. That also feels like a story that wouldn't make sense anymore, though. And obviously all the specifics would be totally different.

I imagine Generations is from a yet-unseen Demona/Angela story. A Bronx Tail... I dunno, maybe based on something from back then. Doubt it's stuck around.

And Justice for All... obviously based on the current story arc. A Dying of the Light... again, probably some really rough idea for a Hudson story. Doubt we'll see whatever it was now. To Serve Mankind is probably some sort of Illuminati story we haven't seen yet, but it's another one that I doubt looks remotely similar to whatever was outlined back in the day. Seeing isn't believing must be based on *something*, because the New Olympians are a pretty deep cut to pull from. I don't see that living to any modern story, though, I think unless they're gonna do the New Olympians spin-off, we're unlikely to see whatever it's based on in it's current form.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 8:10:39 pm EDT from 70.27.163.9

I remember Greg Weisman saying in his original "Gargoyles Master Plan" document about "Pendragon" that they would have definitely done a Stone of Destiny story to reflect its real-life return to Scotland; of course, I don't know when it was written, only that it had been made public to the fandom by the beginning of 1997.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 8:02:39 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Craig: Interesting. I hadn't heard that about the Stone of Destiny but you must be right as the agreement was only reached in July 1996 - far too late in the development of TGC. This opens up another slot which could be the Renard story, unless that was part of another story we've yet to learn about. My impression is that each did, in some way, use the pitch as a starting point although sometimes the endpoint was unrecognisable. But I could well be wrong again.

Todd: I agree. My hunch -- and of course, I'm probably way off -- is that if the trial itself is wrapped up in #9 and the Trio are mainly dealing with the threat of Dino, the Goliath subplot would be figuring out who the "man behind the curtain" is - who bankrolled Tobe and who was responsible for setting the GTF onto him in the first place. This whodunit thread would lead to a final issue for "Here in Manhattan" which would have as its A-plot a 2-hander with Renard on his deathbed. We've seen in recent issues a greater push towards each issue having a stronger focus on one narrative predominantly - Demona, the prison break -- and if this continues, it would make sense for the focus of the final issue to be a more philosophical story with Goliath, especially if the Dino plot is wrapped up in #11 (or, say, the first six pages of #12). Why Halcyon though? There are lots of characters who would be sounding boards for Goliath but if one of the few interlocutors who would challenge and evolve Goliath's thinking is Halcyon and if there's anyone who can effectively and interestingly unpack the events of this arc with Goliath, I think it's Renard. As you say, introducing a character as-new in the final stages of a story might mitigate against his inclusion in this manner.

(Also, fascinating question about who owned Castle Wyvern before. Either way, I suspect Xanatos would take the "pay a man" enough approach with that as well.)

Phoenician: I can't believe in all those years - or at least during the years when Greg was still answering questions - the Dracon narrative went so under explored. I suppose it wouldn't have been fertile territory even for general teases since it mostly relies on new characters.
Ed
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 3:18:36 pm EDT from 5.159.125.189

Yes. Dibs.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Narrator, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 8:56:17 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Todd> Quite alright. Only reason I go by Matthew is because there was a Matt already posting here before me.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 12:50:49 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Incidentally, been thinking about doing so regardless even before a picture uploaded for the Caped Crusader, yeah going to aim sometime for a Gummi Bears article.
Antiyonder
posted @ Wed, Aug 16, 2023 12:25:48 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

Sorry, should have been "Matthew", not "Matt".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2023 8:08:42 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

PHOENICIAN - Thanks. That was a really embarrassing spelling error. Time for a reread of the Dynamite comics (#8 arrived in the mail today), for a refresher.

MATT - And yesterday, August 14, was the anniversary of Macbeth's overthrow of Duncan, by a remarkable coincidence. I have a book titled "Shakespeare For Every Day of the Year", which gave quotes from "Macbeth" for both of those days (the "floating dagger" scene for August 14, the moment where Macbeth discovers to his alarm that Macduff was "from his mother's womb untimely ripped" and thus "not of woman born" - Demona has an even bigger loophole, of course).

Alongside the historical events you mentioned, August 15 is also the birthday of Napoleon and Sir Walter Scott, and the anniversary of the Battle of Roncesvalles, where Roland was slain and inspired a major medieval legend.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2023 7:47:30 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Today marks the anniversary of Macbeth falling in battle against Malcolm (of course we all know that wasn't the end of him).

Also Japan's surrender in World War II.
And the end of British reign in India.
And the start of Woodstock.

Apparently August 15th is just a big day for history.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2023 4:52:58 pm EDT from 64.85.245.77

Todd: Tobe Crest, with an 'e'.

While we had no episodic details, it was 23 years ago (wow), when you asked about Tony and Greg Weisman hinted that he wouldn't necessarily be a crime boss when we next saw him. I guess no one in the fandom really contemplated all that little hint of an answer actually indicated, lol.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Tue, Aug 15, 2023 12:11:43 pm EDT from 72.216.220.229

Should have been "Toby Crest"; I'm not sure where "Toby Crane" came from.

Oh, and Ed, thanks for the mention of the Mayan clan reclaiming the Sun Amulet; I'd forgotten about that one.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 9:05:17 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

TimeDancer. Well I'm looking forward to how the Archmage Plus story ends up. Is it during the loop with the regular Archmage or if it is when he and Goliath were moving about, does that mean he knew in advance that Brooklyn will be TimeDancing?

Also regarding Brooklyn in Future Tense, [SPOILER] It might not be a good guess on Pucks part of Brooklyn looking the same after his journey if any he encounters Puck again while older. [/SPOILER]
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 8:26:37 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Thanks for your thoughts, Ed.

I remember Greg mentioning that the "death of Renard" episode was indeed planned for Season Three. If it does appear in "Here in Manhattan", though, I suspect we'll need to see more of him in the next few issues; so far, we've had just what appears to be his silhouette and a mention in Goliath and Toby Crane's conversation. A beginning, yes, but not enough to fully prepare the readers (especially those who are relatively new to "Gargoyles" and aren't familiar with him) for his passing by #12.

I'd definitely like to see that "Timedancer" story about how Xanatos and Demona met; that'd make great reading. (I'm also still curious about whom Xanatos bought Castle Wyvern from - though I'm certain that the castle was privately owned; I doubt even Xanatos could have purchased it from the National Trust or Historic Scotland - and that story seems the most likely candidate to answer that question.) Come to think of it, that event could have provided Demona with another of those mysteries that she was suspecting by #7 the Phoenix Gate's brief return would explain.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 8:16:54 pm EDT from 174.72.60.154

Antiyonder > Well, the tier system was conceived after season 1. Season 1 was more heavily serialized, but that blew back on them when "Enter Macbeth" was delayed and they couldn't air the next episode. Hence, they conceived the "tentpole" structure for season 2, which allowed them to have some serialization but also some flexibility on airing order.

Ed > I believe Greg has said that the Stone of Destiny storyline was something he conceived after he'd left the show. I could be misremembering, but I don't think it would have been part of the list of ideas he gave to the Goliath Chronicles crew. I also don't necessarily think that every single Goliath Chronicles episode came from a Weisman idea, although it's possible.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 7:17:16 pm EDT from 24.46.160.238

On the other hand as I think I stated before, Thrill of the Hunt has to come first as Demona in Temptation refers to Lexington showing himself to The Pack, and Jackal & Hyena encountering the clan again.

It and Temptation also can't follow Deadly Force, plus the last four episodes with the clan in the Clock Tower. And The Edge cause it establishes Elisa recovering from her wound, getting a partner on the force and the red armored Steel Clan suit for Xanatos. As well as the clan settling in their new home.

But for say the episode with Brooklyn being snatched by the Phoenix Gate, maybe Lexington and Hudson are back before then and are at the castle while Brook, Broadway and Angela are patrolling.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 7:03:18 pm EDT from 71.84.183.196

Todd: My apologies - evidently I misread!

Interesting overview of Greg's hinted-at stories and where we are with them.

I suppose there are stories we know were part of TGC and stories we know probably weren't. For example, the 'Weird Macbeth' 2-parter was, as I understand it, a rejected S2 pitch and so it seems unlikely that it would be pitched for S3 (although I'd love to see it as a mini-series or even OGN for the anniversary!). Also, it seems that S3 was thirteen separate episodes that each had an equivalent in the Thomas/Lewald version making a 2-parter unlikely.

Similarly, Greg mentioned 'Hobgoblin of Little Minds' and a story about Lexington fixing the clock in the Clock Tower which would probably be tricky to tell now except through flashbacks. But I'm not sure either of these were S3.

Equally, I don't think we know for sure Renard's death would be in S3. That said, I could see his death scene happening in #12: there have been a few subtle hints at his presence and I feel like he has the potential to intercede on behalf of the gargoyles in a major way before the end.

And do we have an idea when Mab would have first appeared? S3 or beyond?

We also know the Mayan Clan would eventually retrieve the Mayan Sun Amulet. But it's not clear when - perhaps not until Obsidiana visits Manhattan in 2006?

What's tricky also is we don't know how serialised the original S3 was intended to be. Was it tiers and tentpoles still (perhaps sensible given that there seems to be two different orders of the TGC episodes as-released) or would we have stronger inter-episode continuity? Clearly, there would need to be some tentpoles - the Timedancer story being one. It seems believable that the Stone of Destiny and Michael Maza stories could have not featured (or barely featured) Brooklyn and family allowing them potentially to be aired in any order within a single tier giving it a bit more leeway than, say 'Enter Macbeth' which really had to fall at that exact point.

But the way Greg has written the Goliath trial story, with it trailing over the equivalent of multiple episodes, feels more like an adaptation for the comic format than something episodic. I suspect the original story would have been a very dense single episode (a bit like "Vows").

As far as I can tell, we have these discrete episodes adapted, or partially adapted, already:

1. The Journey
2. Double Date - became??? ("Genesis Undone"? Clones?)
3. Stone of Destiny - became??? ("To Serve Mankind"? Illuminati?)
4. Timedancer - became "Runaways"
5. Maggie's Baby - became ???
6. Goliath on Trial - became "And Justice For All"
7. Gang War potentially incorporating Broadway's commitment ceremony - became ??? ("Broadway Goes To Hollywood" - Broadway focus?)
8. Demona and the Keys to Power - became ??? ("Generations"?)

Although we don't know for sure that the Gang War stuff had precedent in TGC, I'm inclined to believe that it did - every tier has had a crime lord story (granted, Brod took it in the World Tour). Whether or not we would have had the five families or just Dino I'm less sure - certainly Antoinette seems to be a more recent addition and of course, having too large a supporting cast would stress the voice acting budget.

Similarly, we don't know if the Hallowe'en story has a basis in the series - the prominence of Bronx on the cover makes me wonder if it's developing the ideas of "A Bronx Tail" but since S3 already had a Hallowe'en episode it seems unlikely there'd be another. Now perhaps the contents of that issue aren't specific to Hallowe'en but that would be tricky given how unique Hallowe'en is for the gargoyles. Either way, seems like there would have been a Gnash episode of some description.

Beyond that, we have:

9. A New Olympians episode (which seems unlikely to be adapted for a long while given the age of Terry Chung) - became "Seeing Isn't Believing"
10. Multi-Trickster - became "Ransom"
11. A dream episode which became "For It May Come True" (perhaps a Mab story?)
12. Ultra-Pack?
13. A story where the Redemption Squad defeat the gargoyles (could be the same as the Ultra-Pack story).

Since then though, Greg's ideas have had time to percolate. In particular, he had a 'Pendragon' idea that he wanted to tell in the SLG run and which had a particular place on the timeline. After all, at the time of the Halloween special, Arthur's quest for Merlin has been going on for a year - even allowing for a few Avalon trips in there slowing him down, that's still a big chunk of time.

(I also have a suspicion that if we get another spin-off after 'Dark Ages', it will be 'Timedancer'. As I understand it, the next adventure would be the meeting of Xanatos and Demona. I just think Dynamite and Disney are going to be far more interested in a story about the origin of the main series and the core antagonists, especially the ever-marketable Demona, than a spin-off with none of the regulars and characters that only appeared in a couple of episodes each.)

However, I could see the 'Pendragon' story being incorporated into the second 'Gargoyles' arc. Because Griff and the London clan are also gargoyles - and through Lexington's relationship with Amp, there's a bridge between the Manhattan and London characters - I could see Arthur's storyline being incorporated as a running subplot in a 12-issue arc a bit like Dino's in 'Here in Manhattan'. For all we know, it could be very much in Demona's interests to find Merlin as he may have a lead on the Keys to Power.

Of course, we also have to recognise that 28 years is a long time and these stories are in a different format. Although Greg has a lot nailed down and I'm sure the overall shape of the future hasn't changed too much, it wouldn't surprise me if some things were shunted around as seems to have happened with the New Olympians storyline.

I'll be very excited for when the podcast gets to these stories to find out how these stories started life!
Ed
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 6:44:39 pm EDT from 31.94.0.237

I thought of looking over Greg Weisman's past hints of the stories he'd wanted to do for Season Three (and beyond), alongside what we've got in the comic so far.

"Clan-Building" was filled with these "hinted-at" stories getting told at last: for #3-5, the Double Date story, for #6, the "lost Avalon World Tour" story featuring Coldstone, for #7-9, the Stone of Destiny story that Greg had mentioned being likely a part of "Pendragon" had it been made, plus the team-up of Coldsteel and Coyote that he had mentioned once, and for #10-12, Brooklyn's first Timedancer adventure and return.

"Here in Manhattan" is much more "unhinted at territory". So far, the only thread in it that Greg had mentioned in his past hints for Season Three is Goliath's hearing, as the "story that the 'Goliath Chronicles' production team turned into 'And Justice For All'". The other two elements, Thailog going after Michael Maza and Dino Dracon's schemes, were never alluded to, are both new (beyond the fact that groundwork was laid for the former in "Clan-Building" with the revelation that Maggie was with child, and that we'd be wondering what would happen to the organized crime scene in Manhattan with Tony Dracon and Brod both behind bars). So are the Three New Keys to Power (just introduced, whose identity we don't know yet, only that Demona is after them).

So what other stories has Greg indicated were in his plans for Season Three (and beyond)?

1. The "Tricksters" story (which the "Goliath Chronicles" team turned into "Ransom").

2. The Ultra-Pack. [SPOILER] Not begun yet, but as was pointed out in the "Voices from the Eyrie" podcast on "Upgrade", Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf's defeat by Goliath in #8 would certainly signal to them that it's time for another upgrade. [/SPOILER]

3. The passing of Halcyon Renard.

4. The "Weird Macbeth" story.

5. The return of Queen Mab.

There might be one or two others that I've forgotten, but these are the ones that Greg's mentioned, although all of them seem most likely for after "Here in Manhattan", for various reasons. I'm hoping that Dynamite will go for more issues of "Gargoyles" beyond the conclusion of "Here in Manhattan", so that we have the opportunity to see them.

Also, another thought on the "what if the series had gone for the gargoyles being the last of their kind", and the obvious consequence that the series would have had a far less hopeful tone in that case.

I did have one possible idea for how the series could have included an element of hope in such a case, as well as a long-term direction with no other gargoyles out there to ensure a recovery for the species. In it, Goliath and the others address the question of who'll succeed them in protecting Manhattan once they're gone; yes, the city has a police force, but the gargoyles have been confronting a lot of unusual adversaries that the NYPD may not be prepared for. So eventually, the story turns towards providing such successors - including the possibility of turning Xanatos's "make his own gargoyles" schemes to a nobler cause (we did get a bit of this, of course, in the actual series with the Mutates setting up a community in the Labyrinth and looking after it) - with the idea that, once Goliath and his clan are gone (whether having lived out their lives and died of natural causes, or slain in battle), these "replacement gargoyles" (maybe humans in gargoyle armor or something like that) will take up their cause.

I think it's fortunate, though, that they didn't take that approach. It would have worked in a more conventional super-hero cartoon, but a crucial part of "Gargoyles" was a look at the gargoyles as gargoyles - an intelligent species with its own nature, culture, world-view, etc. As I mentioned in a signature quote here some years ago, the series did for "monstrous architecture" what "Watership Down" did for rabbits. Treating the gargoyles as if their "gargoyleness" was just a handy plot device to give them crime-fighting abilities would have lost that.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 9:06:49 am EDT from 174.72.60.154

The Avalon World Tour. Well yeah for starters, some would say playing it safe or taking chances can both yield failure, but the latter at least is more memorable.

And among other things, besides the intro of more gargoyles clans, a trip to Scotland definitely had to be done.

Plus Australia, Nigeria and Arizona due to connections to Pre-World Tour characters. Or The New Olympians cause whether you agree or disagree with no citizens sympathetic towards humans shown (definitely critical of that), makes for a nice reversal with Goliath, Angela and Bronx not being the ones who have to keep out of site well at least until they try to get Elisa free.

Plus, Future Tense and The Gathering Part One do have some impact cause we actually relate to the cast when the clan is reunited.
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 2:39:35 am EDT from 71.84.183.196

I don't think Brooksbro and Hyppolyta were mates because he left to join the splinter clan and there would be no reason why she wouldn't go with him. But it would be nice to have Hudson have biolgical grandchildren on Avalon. And I have a suspicion that the next two artifacts will be of Oberon's Children and the Lost Race so we should be seeing that soon in Dark Ages and the next main arc.

And I have been having this thought for awhile but I believe Goliath's arc right now was the story A Hobgoblin of Little Minds it fits with this premise of having to rethink one's belief. Although frankly I think the premise of Goliath's arc right now cannot fit into the American justice system especially how many layers there is. Can they even try him based on citizenship, what level of government would prosecute him, does being a different species mean that he can't be held to laws that were designed for humans, and the regular adversarial nonsense our legal system is unique for. Al Capone, and OJ Simpson literally got away with murder but avoid your taxes the feds come for you. And the fact that the Chewbacca/twinkie defense actually exist I don't think this arc can be humans are bigoted this issue is far more complex especially if Goliath reveals he is an endangered species I mean that would make a celebrity over night.
Kevin - [kevin dot nuckols at yahoo dot com]
Kevin Nuckols
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 12:53:42 am EDT from 96.235.25.160

I was thinking about the possibility of the next storyline being focused around Avalon and I kind of like the idea of that. For the clan, it's been just them and their human parents for the longest time and now it's populated by a huge number of the Third Race (three of which wanted them dead or gone). And Oberon who's been living by his lonesome for the longest time now has his subjects from all over the world suddenly living with him again, most of whom have changed to one degree or another and he hasn't.

There's a lot of story potential to be had from this sudden change. And part of me wants to see what happens to Oberon when it becomes clear that having that many tricksters or volatile personalities so close to each other is a bad idea.
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 12:53:37 am EDT from 64.85.245.77

Nombre Un

B - Yes, Trickster. Loved that show. Apparently it got cancelled because the director wasn't a member of an actual native community. Kinda disappointing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IHLDWHxSLw

It's *really* dark, though.
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Mon, Aug 14, 2023 12:39:20 am EDT from 70.27.163.9