[SPOILER] Some time ago when we were discussing the possibilities on the New Keys to Power the Crown of Thorns came up. I mentioned that among religious items that one is actually a bit more important because unlike the Spear of Destiny or the Holy Grail it isn't considered apocryphal. That being said, it has been referenced to or emulated in other pieces of fiction without much fuss. I imagine things might've changed since the original play, though I can't imagine it'd be substituted with something like a piece of the True Cross. [/SPOILER]
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Dec 24, 2023 8:57:01 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Algae> [SPOILER] Nothing wrong with feeling that way about it. I'm not a woman of faith, but I understand the perspective. My take on it is that like with any piece of culture or belief it needs to be handled with care and respect. For some religions of the past their only way to survive in memory is to be depicted in future media. Great care should be taken when handling these subjects, always. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Sun, Dec 24, 2023 1:06:10 am EST from 208.102.156.56

KATE> [SPOILER] I rememeber having a bit of a weird reaction to Demona using the Spear of Destiny and Crown of Thorns back when the first crossover radio play came out. I wasn't offended or outraged exactly but I was a bit theologically... discomforted.

Of course, this was all back when I still IDed as a Catholic. Nowadays, I'm a LOT more confortable with fiction taking artistic liberties with Christianity. [/SPOILER]
Algae
'Nuff said.
posted @ Sat, Dec 23, 2023 3:52:00 pm EST from 86.45.213.89

Humph. Darkest week of the year astronomically and on the Comment Room, I guess, what with all the wit and wisdom hiding inside the spoiler tags suddenly. Oh well. (I do appreciate them. I'm really hoping to have forgot the teaser for Quest #3 that pushed itself into my email yesterday by the time the issue actually prints.)

Regarding the delays, they're playing merry heck with my subscriptions, and since my local comic shop just sold itself to another with an inferior ordering system it's putting me into all kinds of anxiety. They only have me down for Dark Ages #5 (and Quest #1) because of how they set deadlines, and I'm beginning to wonder if I'll need to go hunt for missing issues. I can imagine the bind it'd put someone into if they were just coming into the series.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Sat, Dec 23, 2023 10:53:38 am EST from 99.74.15.252

CRAIG - [SPOILER] The "Hand of Valmont" idea certainly makes sense. Which raises the question of what the Phoenix Gate's successor is likely to be.

Incidentally, Odin's spear Gungnir must have somehow gotten away from him in the Gargoyles Universe if it's one of the Three New Keys of Power - though he showed no signs of carrying it in either "Eye of the Storm" (unless it was the staff he was leaning on when he first met the travelers) or "The Gathering Part One". Odin being parted from his Eye is, of course, present in the Norse myths, but there's no mention in them of his ever losing his spear (and he was more fortunate than some of the other Norse gods; Thor temporarily had his hammer stolen - though he got it back, if through a comically humiliating event - and Freyr gave his sword away). Maybe "Gargoyle Quest" will provide some explanation for that. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Dec 23, 2023 7:47:03 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Todd: Sorry, as it built on a discussion in spoiler text I should have spoilered that as the rest of the discussion was in spoiler text but it's not a spoiler, just a running gag based on some obscure speculation for #12 - nothing in the issue.
Ed
posted @ Sat, Dec 23, 2023 3:19:30 am EST from 31.94.2.246

Craig> [SPOILER] That'd make sense. I often find myself forgetting that Gargoyles is a Disney property, it's not something that always clicks since it's so different from most of the content released under the brand both new and old. And also my current mindset about them is that they're just the company who buys properties to ruin them. [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 10:45:37 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Quest #3 solicitation spoilers:

[SPOILER]
Kate >
I don’t know how much writers necessarily worry about Christian outrage, but you can bet that Disney does. They have to approve the contents of every issue, they’re a company that is notoriously averse to any kind of controversy, and Christian parents make up a big and vocal part of their consumer base who frequently threaten boycotts of the whole company when something offends them. And Greg as writer certainly has a good sense of what Disney will and won’t let him do, as someone with a three-decade off-and-on association with the company.

Todd >
The Hand of Valmont could be the Grimorum’s successor. I remember people mentioning it as one of the possible New Keys due to its appearance in a radio play, and in the radio play (according to gargwiki), it derived its power from the fact that Valmont was holding the Grimorum when the hand was chopped off, thus imbuing it with some of the Grimorum’s magic.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 8:01:33 pm EST from 107.123.49.81

ED - By the way, what was that bit about Leonard Cohen, the Muppets, and the Weeping Angels about? I did Google them together, and found out that all were linked to the phrase "take Manhattan" - was that in the spoilers for #11? (I do think that the Weeping Angels feel appropriate in being brought up in a Gargoyles-context - winged stone beings with a "mythical" atmosphere to them. I recall that the first Weeping Angels story even showed at least one gargoyle in the montage at the end. I also remember my little ficbit here, some years ago, where a couple of Quarrymen mistook some Weeping Angels for gargoyles - though the bigger mistake was blinking before they could bring their hammers down on them.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 8:01:09 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

Todd: [SPOILER] Just because Thailog and Demona are going for the same relics, doesn't necessarily mean they are on the same side . . . I can imagine many different factions trying to foil Demona for their own reasons. [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 7:34:36 pm EST from 68.2.64.232

CRAIG - Thanks for the information about the solicitation for Gargoyles Quest #3. [SPOILER] The notion of Odin's spear Gungnir being fused with the Spear of Longinus particularly struck me, since some years ago, I wrote a story - now on hold - which did something similar, though the "Spear of Longinus" part was focused more on the spear from the Grail romances that crippled the Fisher King. I was amused by the thought that another object linked to Odin is one of the new Three Keys to Power; it's clearly the successor to the Eye. I wonder what the Grimorum and Phoenix Gate's successors will be; the Grimorum's successor will most likely be another object of human magic, while as for the Phoenix Gate, I won't even try to guess. And I'm also looking forward to finding out more about the dragon - not to mention I'm curious about how apparently Demona and Thailog are working together again. [/SPOILER]
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 7:08:51 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

Leonard Cohen, the Muppets and of course the Weeping Angels... sounds like one of those Venn diagrams. "Mournful epic", "byword for idiot", "sociopathic stone serial killers"... has to be Demona in the middle!

As for the delays, as Craig says, the annoyance isn't the fact of the delays but the unreliability of the communication meaning that it's not really possible to get hyped for any given date. While I like the serialised experience, it's less appealing without a predictable schedule and I hope it doesn't lead more people to trade-wait.

Printing delays were stated to be the cause of the delay for #2 and I agree it's not an art delay - difficult to imagine they'd have announced Drew Moss doing 'Thundercats' if he wasn't at least close to the end of 'Dark Ages'.

As for Disney as the culprit, I just had a look at other books in the Disney line. Darkwing was a little delayed in autumn but generally hit all its dates up to #10. The Disney Villains minis have always been on time once they launched (them being just four issues probably helps as they can launch closer to the point of completion - another reason to hope Quest is insulated from these issues). However, 'Negaduck', 'Justice Ducks' and 'Cruella' have all had issues solicited for December and pushed to January .

I guess the key is non-Disney Dynamite books - I couldn't see much indication of delays on those but these all seem to be minis anyway.

I'm net optimistic that it will work out well for "Quest" as by the time it launches it will have already had a long lead time. 'Dark Ages' is more of a concern since it's a proof of concept of a spin-off book and has hardly had a chance to establish itself but I hope its initial success has been such that Dynamite will pull the trigger on another spin-off run without delay.

Anyway, with 'Dark Ages' (probably) off the table for this year that means we end 2023 with 9-10 issues of 'Gargoyles' (depending how you slice it), four issues of a spin-off, one Hallowe'en special (and the Marvel reprint thing). By a significant margin, the most new canon material released in a year since 1996 and more than the entirety of the SLG run (excluding trades). By any measure, a good haul!

Quest #3:
[SPOILER] Whether on purpose or by intent but Dynamite/Greg have been doing us a favour lately by making these teasers completely unreliable. This means I feel a lot less bad about encountering them. Having Thailog and Brentwood along for the ride is going to be pretty awesome. As for the dragon... I'm still not sure I'd expect a physical altercation here but Dark Ages #5 might clarify things more... [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 3:57:18 pm EST from 195.110.171.60

Was too late to snatch up #11. Guess I'm waiting until Jan 3rd. As for Quest #3 spoilers...
[SPOILER] Is Christian outrage still a fear for writers in 2023? There's a wealth of media nowadays that does far more egregious things with the Christian faith. Maybe I'm out of my depth here though, was the series attacked in the past for this kind of thing? [/SPOILER]
Kate
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 3:43:01 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Spoilers for the solicitation.

[SPOILER] Considering Greg's penchant for combining myths. (like the Weird Sisters being the Fates/Norns/Furies, or the Holy Grail) that doesn't terribly surprise me. Oooh... on that note, I kinda wonder if we'll see the Weird Sisters again. It's such a short arc I doubt it, but anything's possible. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 2:24:42 pm EST from 70.48.45.124

Sorry for the double post. The solicitation for Quest #3 is now out. Spoilers for that preview (not for anything else) to follow...

[SPOILER]
It appears that the spear we saw Demona reaching for on the cover for #2 was not the Spear of Destiny (or at least not strictly that), but rather "the haft of Gugnir," i.e., Odin's spear. Interesting to see him being looped back into the storyline again. The spear is also referred to in the preview as the "Lance of Fate." I have a feeling Greg intends Odin's spear and the Lance of Longinus to be one and the same, but will leave this as subtext for fans to pick up on, in order to avoid Christian outrage.

This storyline will also apparently involve "Wyvern the Dragon" guarding the spear. I wonder if this is the same wyvern/dragon who is presumably going to appear in Dark Ages (unless that's been dropped). In any event, the idea of Thailog fighting a dragon is pretty exciting.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 1:45:59 pm EST from 24.46.161.118

BTW, for those who are interested in the behind the scenes, George Kambadais sent a tweet on 11/07 that he was working on his final issue of Gargoyles (i.e., #12).
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 12:34:23 pm EST from 24.46.160.120

Thanks for the thoughts on the recent delays and schedule changes for the comic. Your theory that the reason for it is problems with printing at Dynamite seems likely; let's hope they get those issues sorted out soon.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 8:11:32 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Hmmm. So it appears that the early digital release of #11 was presumably an error after all...it has now been removed from Amazon, with the January 3 release date reinstated. I am still able to read my downloaded version of the comic on my phone's Kindle app currently, but am no longer able to read it on my computer browser...I get a notification that the title is not yet available. Curiouser and curiouser...

I guess they're afraid that doing an early digital release could hurt physical sales (and maybe some stores/distributors complained?). Or maybe the artwork wasn't actually approved by Disney yet, or there were still changes intended to be made (the several coloring errors I noted)...lots of possibilities, I suppose. But I will say, it's seeming more and more likely that printing/supply issues are fueling these delays as opposed to the creative end, which by all accounts is going smoothly. This comports with the 'Here in Manhattan Volume 1' collection being delayed a whopping six months (despite all the material obviously being complete) and the lack of movement on Marvel/SLG collections.

I also see from Gargoyles News that Dark Ages #5 is no longer releasing next week, now delayed a month to January 24. I'm sure a few of us will be checking just to make sure the digital release doesn't sneak through next Wednesday at midnight....

It feels almost inevitable that Quest #1 will eventually be delayed again, as it feels very unlikely that it will come out a week after Gargoyles #12, but we'll see. Ultimately, these delays haven't been at all bad IMO, and anyone complaining about them is spoiled (I've seen WAY worse delays in the comics industry...not even talking about the SLG run of Gargoyles). But I do wish Dynamite would get their act together a bit from a PR standpoint, just so that delays aren't being announced a few days before the announced release dates, issues being accidentally released on the wrong day and then withdrawn, etc. It feels a bit chaotic, and is probably contributing to some of the annoyance I see being voiced on reddit. I would imagine that with extremely minimal effort, they could just do a one-time rearrangement of the entire upcoming schedule into something realistically workable given the current state of things, as opposed to constantly pushing the dates back one issue at a time every few weeks, which feels rather silly and impractical.
Craig
posted @ Fri, Dec 22, 2023 1:42:57 am EST from 24.46.161.146

Bishansky > [SPOILER] Hmm fair enough. I still think you'd have to be VERY naive at her age to not pick up on the obvious context clues, but I guess we really don't have much of a sense of her personality. I appreciate the comparison to AJ. My own more personal experience of mob brats was that the Gotti kids would periodically come into a movie theater where I worked, during the time when Growing up Gotti was on TV. Those kids were definitely NOT naive. They were grade A jerkwards who would always end up bullying staff and starting some sort of trouble.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Thu, Dec 21, 2023 9:21:47 pm EST from 24.46.160.91

CRAIG> [SPOILER] "There is that weird moment where Rosie asks, "Why'd you REALLY lay those tarps out?!" I think the line is mostly just there as setup for Brooklyn's quip, but it's kind of awkward. Like, the girl is supposed to be a teenager, and she was raised in a gang-adjacent environment; she's not a moron. Plus, Dino had previously just said he doesn't want to make a mess and doesn't want to leave evidence. I would expect her to be screaming begging for her life at that point, not calmly second-guessing Dino's eccentric interior decorating choices.

Ever watched "The Sopranos"? Meadow and AJ Soprano both knew what their father did, but in a similar situation they'd probably react in a similar way. They would have been that naïve. Moreso from Meadow, because AJ was dumb. And I am sure Yinpei and Huracan keep them both as far away from the business as possible. Tony Soprano didn't want his kids anywhere near his business. Vito Corleone famously wanted Michael to do something better with his life.

They are mob brats. And many mob brats are sheltered, are naïve, and are dumb. Again, watch "The Sopranos" and bear witness to Meadow and AJ Soprano. Especially when they were teenagers, by the time she was an adult Meadow was on her way to becoming a mob lawyer and marrying another mobster. But when she was Rosie and Peter's age? Yeah. [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Thu, Dec 21, 2023 6:37:57 pm EST from 67.189.167.107

Happy winter solstice, everyone! The gargoyles' longest awwake-time.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Dec 21, 2023 8:52:10 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Well, I know the Solstice isn't until the following evening, but hey, where I'm at the calendar date is accurate enough: Happy Solstice!

Some random thoughts on #11 (which right now my kindle isn't loading at the moment, but my desktop kindle is. Hmmm.): [SPOILER]
Looks like Gnash is gliding past the MetLife building, which has had some recent fame as the foundation building for the Avengers Tower in the MCU.

Unlike others, I knew it was Chavez when I saw her, but I'll admit I thought the first bubble coming from the building was still Antoinette, thinking she was calling out Dino for not telling her about being ok with Tony as collateral for Wolf's rampage. So for me, I didn't recognize the newly refurbished Clock Tower. But the following panels confirmed this scene was not at Park Manor.

I'm not pointing out a nitpick here, I just like knowing that all the Halcyon scenes are in Air Fortress II, even if its not apparent in any of the panels.

I agree that I would like to see some sort of hit for the 23rd Precinct in terms of the blowback of Elisa's testimony. Not that I'm rooting for any of these characters -- Chavez, Elisa, and Matt -- to fail, but (as others have commented) there is a desire to see consequences play out in this universe that has been built on choices and consequences. But as we learned not too long ago with Judge Roebling in "New Rules", sometimes those choices and consequences can be a bit too-real for our sensibilities, and slaps on the wrist in the field of law enforcement are definitely all too-real. But even in-universe, Chavez has already given Elisa a lot of leeway already, what with the missing service weapons and the extended vacation. I don't want to overthink this, so I'll leave it that I trust where this story has been going for eleven-plus issues and two seasons and a previous comic-run to boot. I definitely look forward to the details of Matt's "solution" in Issue 12 (and as always with any of our various Thirty-Sixes are in a scene . . . you have to wonder who's got their hands in the cookie jar).

It didn't occur to me until Matt pointed it out, but I'm kinda surprised David was even in the same room as Halcyon. Given that the very idea of death terrifies him, I was expecting these scenes with Halcyon to be just with Vogel, Goliath, Fox, Alex, and Anastasia. The fact "that viper" showed up is quite the moment for the two of them. (again, hoping these moments were sincere for all the parties involved and that Xanatos wasn't just gathering intel as a fellow Thirty-Six. But then again, while he's fully human, Xanatos is a trickster at heart. So like Anastasia and Owen, maybe he can be both).

Owen and Preston in the same room is always a treat, but it wasn't lost on me that Owen once worked for Renard. Puck might have found him too dull to stay in his employ, but Owen certainly can give his respects.

Had to double check Rosie and Pete's lines in "Tale Old as Time" to consider just how in-the-know they were as mob brats. Rereading it, I take it they are at least at the level where Michael Corleone was depicted in the opening scenes of The Godfather: out of the game but not ignorant of the game. So maybe it's just that "they wouldn't hurt kids" sensibility that's making Rosie question the tarps.

Gotta love the Nate Cosby cameo (what? I thought it was obvious he was the mook in the exo-suit with the Bronx-mask) d:

We've long talked about the bond that Lexington and Alex seemed to have seen in "Possession" and "The Journey", so it really is something to see he won't be the only gargoyle having a significant influence in his life. I dare say he won't be the only Alexander in this series to have multiple fathers/father-figures . . .

Loved the cables from the exo-suits being drawn out of the panel.

Action panel looks like Brooklyn shooting Dino's weapon out of his hand, like he did with Renqvist in "Underwater".

According to Merriam-Webster, the first known use of the word 'cosplay' was in 1993, so while it was around when the Trio first woke up, I do agree that Gnash has been around the chronological blocks where it has become more frequently used.

I can't make out the building on the last page. It looks like it has a clock face, but I can't place it.

Ed: Never underestimate The Muppets. Wonder what Hudson must think of them? [/SPOILER]
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Thu, Dec 21, 2023 5:33:33 am EST from 35.86.101.113

Sorry for the double post.

[SPOILER]
One other thing to remember is that Ellsa’s dad was Chavez’s boss. So that probably buys Elisa a good deal of leeway with Chavez, since she respects Peter. But again, Chavez can only protect her so much under these circumstances.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 11:27:35 pm EST from 166.199.98.13

Alex > [SPOILER] There is that weird moment where Rosie asks, "Why'd you REALLY lay those tarps out?!" I think the line is mostly just there as setup for Brooklyn's quip, but it's kind of awkward. Like, the girl is supposed to be a teenager, and she was raised in a gang-adjacent environment; she's not a moron. Plus, Dino had previously just said he doesn't want to make a mess and doesn't want to leave evidence. I would expect her to be screaming begging for her life at that point, not calmly second-guessing Dino's eccentric interior decorating choices.

As to the police oversight division, we call it IAB here in the U.S. (Internal Affairs Bureau). Falsifying reports on its own COULD likely be enough to get Elisa fired. Depending on the nature of the report, she could be guilty of the crime of perjury. But on the other hand, I've also known of cops who did much worse and only got a suspension. So it really depends. It's sad to say, but the biggest factor is realistically the public blowback ...and Chavez alludes to this--"public, press, and powers-that-be." The mayor is going to come down on the police commissioner, and the police commissioner is going to come down on Chavez. They're going to want answers, they're going to be furious about the inevitable bad headlines, and they're going to want a sacrificial lamb to slaughter publicly and visibly, whether Elisa or Chavez, or both.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 11:04:57 pm EST from 24.46.162.6

[SPOILER] Yeah, my dog died last winter and "she's gone" is what the vet said. So that kind of got me a bit.

I knew they were exo-suits in hindsight, but I wrote my review as I was reading the comic. Honestly the whole action sequence was *fine*. I don't really understand action in comics generally myself, it's just always confusing to me. But I liked that it showcased the trio working together. It's kind of funny that all of Dino's guys were wearing Gargoyle masks.

Also the Brooklyn criticism wasn't actually mine. I don't... think I really agree with it broadly, but I also haven't thought about it that much. So Brooklyn being the good pupil in that moment and going "we should wait for Goliath" brought it to mind. But it was a fake out anyway.

I think your interpretation is right, Ed. And I think there's merit to Craig's argument too. Brooklyn's not being young or innocent or juvenile, he's being overcautious and old. He's worried about something bad happening to someone and not trusting his (now much younger) brothers. I'm not sure that comes across in the text in QUITE the way it should, but I think that's the absolute correct interpretation.

It was kind of interesting how much Greg had to dance around "Dino is going to murder the teenagers". You want kids to get it, but not be shocked by it I guess.

The Chavez-Elisa scene gave me big Hill Street Blues vibes. There are A LOT of times Frank would come through and protect one of his officers for protocol violations and from the heat of the "powers that be" as Chavez puts it. (Division and Chief Daniels in HSB) In the first 4 episodes, Frank basically protects one of his officers from a crooked cop taking a bribe. And it's like kind of a heroic moment for him. Like "Frank looks after his people" kinda thing. And there's a little more context to it than just that. But the bottom line in that episode was, guy took a bribe, Frank protected him.

But I think in 2023, generally, at least I, am way more sensitive to examples of police and other people of positions in power looking the other way like that. But Elisa didn't take a bribe -- but there's likely a lot of falsifying reports and such. I'm not sure if Elisa's done anything illegal, though. So I'm not sure what grounds that Chavez and... I forget what you guys call it in the States, is it IAD? (SIU in Ontario).

But honestly the idea of Elisa being fired and not being a cop anymore is *such* a juicy story idea. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 10:34:56 pm EST from 70.48.45.124

Oh, no one has pointed out yet that [SPOILER] Coldstone is last man standing on the "narrator" front. Leaving the possibility that #12 could have a rather dour tone, given how unpleasant he's been for most of "Here in Manhattan." [/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 9:09:11 pm EST from 24.46.160.48

And if you should survive to 105
Look at all you'll derive
Out of being alive
And here is the best part
You've had a head start
If you are among the very
Young at heart

Everyone's covered pretty much everything but I'll still give some thoughts on #11

[SPOILER] So the kidnapping is resolved, one brotherhood is rekindled and another is extinguished. Young at Heart is a pretty apropos title considering Sinatra's connection to organized crime. So it looks like the other families are starting to see what we the reader saw when Dino was first released, that despite his reputation his time in prison has made him wiser, more willing to work smarter. But the flaws in his plan are starting to become more noticeable, one is that he might not have planned for the heads to survive their assassination attempts, another is underestimated the intelligence and tenacity of the gargoyles. And finally, despite being a nest of vipers, he underestimated how much blood means in the Dracon family. That and his men probably haven't had enough time to truly master the exo frames. One detail I rather liked was the call-back to Spectacular Spider-Man and how Peter beat Silvermane in the episode "Gangland," by disabling the hydraulics. I once predicted that Dino might be a "burn it all down" kind of person which is why the rest of the Dracons are so fearful of him, if this is his last resort tactic, it could make for an explosive finale.

And we got the obligatory chewing out from Chavez. Like the hearing, this whole thing is unprecedented so I'm willing to bet that underneath that anger she simply doesn't know how to deal with Elisa at the moment. And while the Halloween issue shows things haven't changed too much, it's important to remember that Chavez has people to answer to as well. As for Matt's solution? Could be them acting as liaisons, could also be that he's willing to use his Illuminati connections.

One thing I wanted to touch on was Brooklyn and where he stands, there's been talk about how he's not as confident as one would expect from someone his age. But from what we've seen his maturity has been mostly directed towards being a parent to Gnash. Honestly, this makes quite a bit of sense considering it hasn't been too long since he and his family were suddenly thrust into the life he had left behind as second-in-command. I'm willing to bet that he never expected to return to 90's Manhattan and fully expected to die while still jumping from one period of time to the next. But it's comforting to know that despite the recent rockiness the bond with his rookery brothers is still strong. Maybe once the craziness has died down a bit he can take some time to readjust.

And finally the passing of Halcyon Renard. It's a shame he couldn't remain an ally a bit longer but he's still trying to do one last good thing even as he takes the next step onward. Even with just two percent, I think he's set up Goliath and the clan for life, the question is just what is Goliath going to do with that kind of revenue? Maybe set the stages for connecting the clans all over the world. And everyone's talking about the bit with Owen and Preston, but what I was thinking of while Renard was throwing percentages around was that line from Futurama.

"To my loyal butler, You There, for his decades of service, I leave a pittance, to be paid in 20 equal instalments of one-twentieth of a pittance each. (Butler bursts into tears) To my lazy, spoiled son, Tandy, who never learned the value of a dollar, I leave my entire $10 million fortune."

[/SPOILER]

Well that's all for now, next time it's the finale!
Matthew
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 8:39:02 pm EST from 64.85.245.77

Ed > [SPOILER] Good thought on the titles acronym. I think you're on to something. Between "Manhattan" being in the title of the arc, and the repeated references to Dino bringing Manhattan to its knees etc., "NYC" feels apropos. Add the late Leonard Cohen to your list of suspects alongside the Muppets: "First, we take Manhattan..."

BTW, I realized after the fact that my thoughts on Owen/Puck are very close to your speculation about Anastasia/Titania; although I'd read your thoughts before drafting my own, I'd momentarily forgotten you wrote that. It is really intriguing, wondering how much the Oberati are "creating" a new person and how much of themselves remains part of the equation during the moments when they're someone else.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 8:13:51 pm EST from 24.46.160.189

Christmas came early! Or, Solstice did. Well, whatever happened, this came at just the right time! Read #11 this morning (several times!) and here are my thoughts!

[SPOILER] - Gnash is our narrator! He's having a good few months. This only adds a bit to his characterization, but I'll take it. I love the idea of hearing about the Trio his whole life. It says a lot about Brooklyn really. Even though the Trio was breaking apart before Brook even left on his journey, he holds on to that bond fondly. I'm sure it must've been weird for Gnash to join the clan and meet these uncles. And yet, he suggests that they didn't live up to the hype. Where is the Trio he heard about? Fun stuff. That said, the Trio is back here, but I'm not sure all the issues were fully explored (yet). I liked Todd's idea of them verbally working things during the battle. That didn't happen, which is a shame, and I still feel theres a lot that needs to be said. But at least they're all getting along and working together again.

-The title is interesting. "Young at Heart". I'm going to have to think of the significance of that. And the first letter thing is just baffling to me: AIMTRUEMYNY.... Could we finish with NYC? I dunno. Maybe we are looking at all of this wrong. No idea.

- The phone call page has a lot going. Good stuff, but I wish it was more clear visually who was talking to whom. At first I thought it was all one big conference call. Then I was thinking, oh, there must be two calls happening. Then I thought, there are three. And I'm still a little confused, but it seems we have the heads of the families (minus Dino) on one call, Dino and Glasses on another. Tony and Toni on another, and finally Toni and the gargoyles on a fourth call? Yeesh. Anyway, looks like Slaughter has gotten everyone together to chat, which is great, though I'm amazed he got everyone to talk civilly. Guess when a greater threat presents itself, cooler heads prevail. Still gotta wonder how Choi and Hurracan can be on a call together and not bring up their kids! And Antoinette is turning out to be quite the traitor to the family. Hope Dino never finds out what she's been up to... And I love Dino's line about "cracks are showing". The phrase feels more poignant when the gargoyles are your enemy!

- The Trio (and Gnash) take Toni's call. Sounds like Dino is planning to do more than just hurt the teenagers! They've gotta weigh their options. Is it a trap? But in the end, of course they have to check it out. Should they wait for Goliath? No time. Brooklyn takes charge without feeling overwhelmed as he was before. "This is gonna be fun!" Yup. Nothing says fun like stopping crime bosses from murdering teenagers. Kids. Yeesh. Their approach is very reminiscient of "Upgrade". The Trio scopes it out, makes a plan under Brooklyn's leadership and then takes down a powerful enemy with teamwork. I LOVE the shot of the gargoyles up in the dark rafters. Such a traditional image of gargoyle protectors looking down fromthe darkness above. Really really love it. Then the plan: the Trio takes out the "trio" and Gnash frees the captives. Seems easy enough, but Dino is ready for them with a bunch of exo-framed backup! These things look tough, almost like the one Demona stole from Golden Cup in "The Reckoning". I'm guessing that is where Brooklyn has faced these before. The gargoyle faces threw me for a bit. At first I thought they were screen projections of Goliath, Bronx, Angela, and Hudson. But now I'm thinking the people inside the exo-frames are wearing masks in their image instead. Gotta wonder where Dino is getting these fairly accurate masks (even if they are out of date with Brooklyn!). And speaking of Dino, he is revealed as the Brook-mask wearer indeed. I wasn't sure this was the case at first, but became more convinced as the issues were released and more evidence (like Glasses' dented car) was revealed. Still, I couldn't help but wonder if we were in for another surprise, but no. The mask wearers are just who was suspected. The exo-frames are taken down with some clever thinking and a powerful blaster circa 2198. The gargoyles get out of there with Pete and Rosie (who are loving this!). I'm surprised they just left Dino to his own devices like that. Typically, they'd tie up the bad guys and give Elisa a call. Guess she's busy right now. The Trio is back (or at least has taken some big steps towards their old camaraderie). I love hearing Brooklyn call the others his brothers. We never got enough of that aspect of their relationship in the tv episodes, and I'm glad we are getting more now.

- Meanwhile, the expected meeting between Chavez, Maza, and Bluestone. Glad the Captain isn't just waving this off. Certainly I don't want the worst for Elisa (being fired), but actions have consequences. Elisa doesn't have much of a defense. Glad she offers an explanation without trying to make an excuse. I presume it is the same explanation she told Matt. As for him, he's got a solution to help the Captain (and thus the NYPD and the City) save some face. That could be anything, but I kind of hope it means that they offer to add an actual gargoyle to the GTF (Broadway most likely). Way to strike while the iron is hot, make a nice PR move, and show the public that the NYPD is indeed working with the gargoyles. We will see.

- Meanwhile also, the Renard family has gathered for the last moments of their patriarch. Oh, and Xanatos and Owen are there too. The feelings between Xanatos and Renard have to be interesting here. Obviously, they are economic rivals, and have a personal connection on top of that, but just the feeling in that room... Renard might not want to appear weak next to Xanatos, and on the surface, he is. But Renard is also gracefully embracing something that terrifies Xanatos: death. And with that, he's winning. We lay out the plan for Cyberbiotics. Vogel will run it, Alex and Fox have equal large shares, but Goliath is also given 2%! As Xanatos points out, that makes him a potential tie breaking vote should Alex and Fox ever disagree down the road. Lots of potential for stories there, but probably not for a long while. It also makes Goliath fairly wealthy. Very interesting. Renard says his goodbyes which are very sweet. Alex's "Papa" and Anastasia's final words are particularly sad. And Renard passes. Kind of bizarre to have a recurring character die even though we've known it was coming for decades. It just feels like Gargoyles is growing up. Part of growing up, I've learned, is that new generations start piling up behind you (Michael Maza, Gnash, Egwardo) and the older generations (Renard, Verity...) start to disappear. Bittersweet. But the best stories to me are not the ones that end with "happily ever after", but rather the ones where characters enter the story and eventually leave it. That's how life is. Never The End!

- That said, the end for Here in Manhattan at least is coming up quick! Gotta wrap up this Dino drama and get a gargoyle Commitment Ceremony done! Lovely way to tie up this arc and I'm really looking forward to it! [/SPOILER]

That's my thoughts, where are yours? Sorry if they are a bit scattered and rambling. It's been a crazy week finishing off the semester with my students and recovering from COVID and preparing for the holidays. I was really not expecting to throw this on top of it, but I'll take it!
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 7:07:44 pm EST from 47.233.90.133

Craig & Greg: Forgot both of those, nice catches.

Craig: [SPOILER] I'm kind of interested in Elisa being fired but that's not to say there aren't other interesting avenues to go down first. I agree it feels like the whole department is on thin ice.

Interesting questions about Owen. I took it that Owen was created with a certain sense of humour but it's difficult to say where Owen ends and Puck begins.

Might as well share my title mnemonic spec that I forgot to add before:
I think the words are meant to be read backwards: NYC MY TRUE AIM. Of course, if the last issue title doesn't start with a "C" then who knows... And not quite sure whose aim is to "take Manhattan" as that could be any number of people - humans and gargoyles. And muppets. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 5:37:17 pm EST from 31.94.2.246

Bishansky > Good point. I should have caught that.
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 3:24:30 pm EST from 24.46.162.202

Saving my thoughts for later.

But a reply to Ed and Craig:

[SPOILER] Those exo-suits that the Dracon gang are operating, those look like they're the same type of exo-suit that Demona stole from Goldencup at the beginning of "The Reckoning". [/SPOILER]
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 2:57:15 pm EST from 67.189.167.107

Gargoyles #11:

What a surprising Christmas gift! I note that the copyright notice says "2024," so I really do wonder whether the digital version was intended to release early. I suppose it must have done, or else why would the artwork have even been scanned in to the app this early? But it is weird that the release wasn't publicized at all.

Relatedly, I see that Quest has now been pushed back to February.

[SPOILER]
"Young at Heart." I'm always one to appreciate a Sinatra reference. The title obviously applies mostly to the Trio, and Brooklyn in particular, learning to relate again to his bros despite the age gap. Also applies to Gnash, Rosie and Peter, in an ironic sense to Halcyon, and probably to many others in various ways.

So, as in Dark Ages, we see the downside of creating the covers and solicitations months before the script is even written for an issue. In this case, the Nakayama cover clearly depicts the commitment ceremony for Broadway and Angela, which was also teased in the solicitation (although that weirdly claimed it was for Brooklyn and Katana...intentional misdirect or just sloppy drafting?). Most of the other cover variants also focus on Angela, which feels like a conscious choice, even though Angela doesn't appear in the issue. In both Dark Ages and the main series, Greg clearly had the overall plot worked out to the extent that they could plan the synopses/covers way in advance, but once he got into the weeds of scripting, he presumably realized that certain things needed more time to breathe, inserting the lovely Alesand-centric issue of Dark Ages that we got, and expanding Goliath's hearing to cover a second issue (which I'm SO grateful for). That's caused events in both series to be pushed back an issue. I do hope #12 doesn't feel too rushed. It seems (based on the synopses) that the original plan was for Dino's final play to be in this issue, and for #12 to focus on the other gangs' response. Now we're going to get both in one issue? I somewhat suspect that Greg may end up putting off the commitment ceremony for later, as that could end up being a LOT to pack into 22 pages, but we'll see. Who knows if the solicitations can even be trusted. We still haven't seen the "great minds protocol" mentioned in the synopsis for issue 3, right?

Coloring error #1: The first caption ("Now...") should be white, to distinguish it from Gnash's narration.

Really sweet to learn how much Brooklyn talked about his brothers to his son. Not surprising, but really sweet. Also love that Gnash has come to think of them as "the famous Trio," echoing The Three Musketeers.

Ed > My feeling on what Glasses meant when he said Dino's rep has worked in his favor is that the other gang leaders feel Dino isn't smart or coordinated enough to pull off a strategic attack of this type. They feel he's more like a chimp with a machine gun (to quote Better Call Saul). In other words, his reputation for being stupid and blunt has kept him from suspicion. (Which actually makes me feel better...previously, I felt the other gang leaders aside from Izaak were stupid for not questioning the timing of these attacks immediately after Dino got our of prison...but it makes more sense if they underestimated him due to the surface-level obviousness of his past behavior).

Coloring error #2 (maybe): Either a coloring error, or Jack Dane has gotten vain and started dyeing his hair and goatee brown.

The telephone page is cool. Potentially confusing if you're not fully engaged with the plot, but I love that Greg is continuing to play with time and space, and creating these parallels and transitions that present information in a way that keeps the reader on his or her toes. Great use of the comic book medium.

Coloring error #3: Page 5 final panel. The hand holding the phone should be Broadway's (it appears that Kambadais literally copied and pasted the same drawing of the hand from the prior panel), but it's colored like Lexington.

The Chavez scene...I'm mixed. First of all, as others have noted, Chavez really doesn't look herself. I've observed in the past that Kambadais seems to take some time adjusting to most of the human characters (as opposed to the gargoyles, whom he nailed right away). Maria was much more recognizable in her short appearance last issue, but drawing her in motion seems to have handicapped George a bit. That being said, Elisa is beautiful...so expressive. She is one human George has drawn perfectly right from the jump, and I always love seeing the "acting" he imbues in her. He has also really gotten the hang of Bluestone now, and Matt is a pleasure in the couple of panels we get of him. Again, great acting. As to the substance of the scene...I'm glad there's a reckoning. But (and this is the lawyer in me), I wish it were more...substantive? Maria seems more like a hurt friend than a government superior who is going to be facing some really tough consequences (even though she does pay lip service to those consequences). And the way the scene ends...we obviously don't know what it will lead to yet, but writing conventions being what they are (and given the state of things in the Halloween Special, with Elisa still acting as a cop), it feels like Matt is going to propose some pat resolution that preserves the status quo. Look, I don't want Elisa to get fired. Being a cop is so much a core of her identity that I just don't know what the series would look like without that. But at the same time, I like my fiction to present REAL consequences for characters' actions. I don't want her to escape scot free here.

I love Broadway and Lex's tag-team dynamic in trying to convince Brook to go along. It's so great the way they have each others' backs and are on the same page.

I also LOVE the fake-out of Brooklyn falling back on "Goliath should be back any minute".........and then immediately deciding that the wait isn't worth it. Beautiful storytelling beat, showing that Brooklyn really has evolved during his Timedance.

And this is probably as good a time as any to discuss the complaint some have expressed that Brooklyn during this arc doesn't seem to be showing the signs of maturity we might expect from forty years' (or twenty years') experience. But think about it this way: Have you ever been in a situation where you're returned to childhood circumstances? Say you're forced as an adult to spend an extended period in your childhood home, or with a community you grew up in and moved away from. It feels weirdly infantilizing, and it's easy to mentally regress to feeling the way you did as a kid in that dynamic. In this way, it makes sense to me that Brooklyn, after years of being his own man and building a family, suddenly feels in some ways like a kid again when living with the clan he grew up in. Wants to let Goliath make the decisions, hesitant to act on his own. But the portrayal in this issue is great. I love that we see he's less headstrong, more strategic, once he finally decides to trust his own judgment. And the way Broadway and Lex fall in line, recognizing and respecting that this is the brother they know and trust. And of course, Gnash's unbridled joy.

I do wonder where the other clan members are. Obviously, from a story perspective, the idea was to get the Trio back together, with Gnash as our POV character. But where are Angela and Katana? Do they even know their mates are going out? Presumably this is shortly after everyone has just finished watching the hearing on TV.

That (nearly) full-page spread of Renard in bed is great. It's almost surreal, as the bed and the pillows (those pillows look like they're almost the same size as his full body!) don't look nearly as huge in later drawings. But it is really effective, the way his tiny body is just adrift there. Even Goliath looks small.

Coloring error #4: On page 11, the guy in the Broadway mask has his neck visible and is clearly caucasian, although we learn later that this is Glasses.

Xanatos is just great in this one. Every word, every facial expression just exudes his smug charisma...but with an underlying tone of sympathy and humanity. Kudos to Greg and George for bringing that charming sunovabitch to life so vividly on the page.

And the highlight of the issue, the twist I never saw coming (but should have because it's so perfect), is Renard giving Goliath 2% of his company. Tying him inextricably to Fox and Vogel...strange bedfellows indeed. Think back to "Awakening" and Goliath breaking into that Cyberbiotics air fortress, and it's...well, it's just insane how far we've come. This is Greg at his long-game best, building action upon action until we get to someplace that neither audience nor character could ever have anticipated. What this means for the clan, how Goliath will be able to legally exercise these property rights...all remains to be seen. What matters in the moment is the sheer emotional weight Goliath feels at this level of trust and responsibility being placed on him. It's a beautiful culmination of one of the most complicated and rewarding relationships in this series.

And David. "It's not exactly Thailog money." I laughed very loudly. He might have seen this coming, or he might be completely blindsided...you never can tell with him, but it's all the same to Xanatos. He always recalibrates instantaneously, and has a snappy one-liner ready to go.

And, as Alex put it, "Cue the giant robots." I agree that this felt a little anticlimactic, but then again, I'm not someone who was ever really into Gargoyles for the action. I always prefer the character drama and mythology. I wasn't entirely clear at first on the idea that the machines were being operated by people--I assumed the gargoyle faces were just projections, like the Xanatos head on the later models of Coyote. It wasn't until the "Let me outta here!" moment (which confused me for a second as to who was speaking) that I realized there were operators inside there. (In retrospect, the term "exo-frame" should have cued me in, but I guess that kind of jargon sometimes flies over my head...I also should have probably noticed that all the "gargoyles" inside the robots are wearing suits and ties, but I was probably reading too fast to catch that the first go-round.)

I have to disagree with Ed that the gang war has been "decidedly low-tech" given that the attack on Slaughter involved both Cyberbiotics drones and Scarab VR technology. It is interesting how similar these "exo-frames" look to Coyote. Is it possible that Xanatos has some hand in this? Where are these gangsters getting such advanced technology? It seems like these giant robots would be pretty tough to heist covertly.

In the past, I've voiced my bewilderment at Owen's appearances in the Dynamite run. Clearly I'm biased, as he's a favorite of mine, so I pay extra attention...but from carrying a wireless phone around on a silver platter, to looking like he's about to break down in tears while working on the most strangely-shaped computer terminal in existence (in issue 2), to referring to Broadway by weirdly formal honorifics, all while wearing bizarrely oversized owl-eyed hipster glasses, I just don't know what is going on with our favorite manservant. It all feels a bit like a cry for help. But it was nice to see him acting more like himself this issue. His one line gives Puck a chance to peek through, which is really fun.

This raises the question I've oft wondered about: What exactly are the rules Puck observes when he's Owen? He can't use his powers, yes, I get that...but in terms of personality, how much of Owen is pure artifice, an actor playing a role, and how much actual Puck personality does he permit to come through? To me, it's been obvious from pretty much "Awakening" on that, despite his woodenness, Owen has a certain amused glibness toward everything going on around him. It manifests in a mostly deadpan way, but it's there. That's probably why the reveal in "The Gathering" makes total sense in retrospect.

So, Brooklyn and Dino-Brooklyn both have giant cannons...I'm not exactly clear on what happens there (KZAK!). Brooklyn shoots Dino and his giant gun just...sort of slightly stuns Dino and causes him to drop his own gun? Doesn't seem to really cause any injury? I guess this is some sort of electric weapon of something? Not that I want to necessarily see graphic violence, but I always appreciated the first season of Gargoyles when they were allowed to show actual guns with bullets and the consequences of real violence. I know that sort of fell away and they went the "laser gun" route more and more. Again, I guess I'm just not much of a cartoon/comic book action kind of guy. But it's weird that that giant gun had such a small impact on Dino.

A few other minor gripes...

First off, with the recent chatter about how easily Brooklyn has reintegrated into the clan and the lack of exploration thereof..."That's right! The Trio is officially back!" feels very facile and unsatisfying. All this tension and conflict has been brewing, and it's resolved through a fight with robots? I truly hope there's more to come here. That line is the type of fan service-y dialogue I least like about Greg's writing.

Dino at this point feels like he's been overhyped, to me. His schemes have been transparent, and very little that he's done has harmed anyone other than gang members (or gang-adjacent people like Peter and Rosie). This whole repeated thing of how he's going to burn the city down, bring Manhattan to its knees, whatever, hasn't exactly paid off. I guess we'll see what the last issue brings, but it's hard to imagine him doing anything that drastic in the final 22 pages, given that it will have to be immediately resolved by the end of the issue.

On a more positive note, Antoinette, on the other hand, is easily the most compelling Dracon, and I really hope we get some more insight into the why and how of what she's up to. Is she just an out-of-place kindhearted do-gooder born into the wrong family, or is there something more there? How does she know so much about the gargoyles?

And the Renard stuff was really moving. Other than the Magus, have we lost a character this major before? My grandmother and my great aunt (grandmother's sister) are both very ill currently, and especially with the looming specter of Christmas, that's been difficult for the family...so Renard's plight really hit home for me. My only regret is that we couldn't have gotten these scenes in animated form, with the late great Robert Culp delivering the lines and Carl Johnson's score. I can envision it in my head (and did while reading), but I'm sure the reality would have been better than anything I can picture.
[/SPOILER]
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 2:37:36 pm EST from 24.46.162.202

GARGOYLES #11

[SPOILER] It’s a Christmas miracle! Not sure if this early release was a goof or a gift but I’ll take it!

First, I love seeing the Trio back in action. It’s lovely that we learn how much Brooklyn talked about his brothers when he was away and I kind of love that they don’t so much “talk it out” as just have a big night out on the town which seems… appropriate for four blokes! (I kind of imagine Katana going, “So it looks like you talked everything through with your brothers?” and Brooklyn going, “Talked? What do you mean?”). I also enjoyed Gnash going along with them - it’s great how in a relatively short space of time he’s become such an essential part of the dynamic.

The issue also gives each of the foursome a chance to shine. Broadway is the moral imperative to act and brings them the intel. Lex understands how to defeat the hydraulic minions. Brooklyn has the plan that brings it all together. Plus we see Gnash taking on Dino which is pretty cool.

The way the hydraulic minions were defeated was especially clever - dropping their movement systems and thereby trapping them in their suits. After all these years, Greg still brings out clever twists on these old fight scenes.

I also enjoyed the gargoyle masks on the mech operators. I wonder where these mech frames came from? Brooklyn’s familiarity with them suggests that the manufacturer is known to him but not necessarily to everyone else. So far in ‘Gargoyles’, the turf war narratives have remained decidedly low-tech but it was only a matter of time before they got supered up and I can see the arms race becoming a big problem in later issues.

Dino was overwhelmed and under-prepared this time. I was worried when Gnash took him on as I wouldn’t underestimate him in hand-to-hand combat (especially if he has weapons hidden away).

It’s good to see the Five Families but they were largely irrelevant to this issue - a pity as I’ve been really looking forward to seeing more of them. The page effectively shows the chaos Dino has created with the thirteen panels and everyone talking to different people. So seems like we have:

1 & 13 - Broadway and Antoinette
2 - Tony and Antoinette
3, 5, 7, 8, 9 & 10 - The rest of the families
4, 6, 11 & 12 - Glasses and Dino with Antoinette listening

Not impossible to unpick but I kind of like that you needed to slow down and clue in to follow the flow. Unravelled like this, two things are apparent:

1. Antoinette is in all but one of these sequences making her a particularly interesting character with her allegiances stretched three-ways. I’m not sure anyone would say she’s particularly close to either Broadway, Dino or even Tony and where her motives ultimately lie remain to be seen but each of these three represent distinctive interests: the gargoyles represent keeping innocents out of the crossfire (and I guess innocent family members may represent a particular no-go for her especially if she has family of her own); Dino and Glasses are the organisation her family has built up over years and which, whatever her views on Dino, I expect she would not want to cede to the other Families; and Tony is both her brother and, for better or worse, appears to be the most stable of her relatives. I kind of like that Greg hasn’t, as far as I can see, put his thumb on the scale of where her loyalties lie which makes her a really fascinating character (especially for someone we weren’t even aware of at the beginning of this year.)

2. Dino is getting his info from somewhere. Wiretap? Otherwise he must have sources close to other members of the families.

I’m also not quite sure what Glasses means that his rep worked for Dino until now. How exactly? I suppose the fact that the Dracons haven’t been drawn into the plot or accused probably reflects that the others didn’t want to poke a hornet’s nest but the downside of being an agent of chaos is that when chaos is being agented, you’re going to draw suspicion…!

The hostages being freed has a fun moment where Pete has doubts about who the good guys are. Especially since they’ve been out of the loop, it’s fair enough for him to double-take but Rosario reads the room a lot quicker.

Interesting that the Trio focused on getting the hostages away as opposed to alerting the police. I suppose this would not help their relationship with Antoinette and could put the hostages in more immediate danger. Also, I guess their only contacts on the force appear to be otherwise occupied and perhaps they did ring in the info later.

We also get a low-key confirmation, as if it were still in any kind of doubt, that Dino is the man in the outdated mask. Plus it’s great to get the use of the word “cosplay” in an actual issue and it makes sense that it’s from Gnash since the word was new enough in the 90s that I don’t know if the rest of the Trio would be aware of it. Maybe Lex as he’s more into the 90s internet scene.

Absolutely superb final Dino panel this issue - especially effective use of colour.

All-in-all, this evidently isn’t the big climax to the Dino storyline but does chalk the cue very effectively for #12. I’ve really enjoyed having Dino as a major new force in the world of our heroes but this is not a high note for his plots… which is going to make #12 very interesting as I rather doubt he’s going to go quietly.

One thing that seems apparent is how Greg’s really changed his approach to writing these issues over the course of the year with the chapters now each feeling like very distinct instalments - #9 and 10 did flow pretty directly into each other it’s true but otherwise the last several issues have felt very much their own self-contained creatures. It’s different from the rhythm of three-parters that marked out most of “Clan-Building” and #1-3 of the Dynamite books but I think it makes each issue feel like it has a bit more to it as an individual unit. I’ll be intrigued to see if Quest has a similar pattern or if the “event” book style means it returns to a more strictly serialised approach.

Elisa… oh Elisa. I’m so glad that the long-awaited reckoning with Chavez has finally come to pass (and Matt doesn’t get a pass either). I kind of wish George had stuck closer to the original model as she comes off a bit Dominique Destineish here. I’m going to be intrigued by Matt’s solution - my guess is that Elisa will become the police liaison to the clan or something along those lines. Again, it’ll be intriguing to see this play out.

Still, for me, the real magic this episode was in the Renard scenes… oh man, this stuff was GOLD. We got really good pay-offs with each of his major benefactors:

- Xanatos: I love David’s evident respect for Renard. It’s not entirely clear if he knew (or at least guessed) ahead of time where this was going and his “wouldn’t dream of trying” was an indication of his approval. I kind of like to imagine he did.

- Goliath: This one was a big surprise to me but - as with all the best surprises - seemed absolutely inevitable in retrospect. The only thing I’m confused about is that the hearing was to adjudicate on Goliath’s sentience. This is a long way from granting Goliath citizenship, still less the capacity to exercise that citizenship. Even if a gargoyle can exist as a legal entity, one assumes that he is not yet an American. Of course, Renard would have a whole legal team to bring this into effect so I’m sure it will hold up reasonably well but I would like to see Greg kicking the tires of this choice a bit in future issues. Irrespective of the legalities, it’s definitely a smart move from Renard as Goliath clearly best represents the value of integrity he holds so dear.

- Preston: I enjoyed Preston’s interplay with Owen. We do see a little glimpse of Puck in Owen as well - “that is what makes them so amusing.” Interesting that this is at least the second “Romeo and Juliet” shout-out in “Here in Manhattan”. Probably just Greg being playful and referring to a feud past but… well, I assume this isn’t the last we’ll see of Preston so who knows?

- Fox/Alex - I really loved Janine’s goodbye. I liked especially that he called her Fox at the end. All credit to Greg for showing such an incredibly complicated father-daughter relationship.

- Anastasia - I never really expected to see Anastasia again and it’s interesting how Titania insists there was “nothing pretend” about her life. I’m not sure if this is just a conceit that the Third Race allow themselves to feel better about taking on these roles or whether there is something that happens on a physical level when they assume these forms and these roles that make it very much like becoming a different person.

And so we have finally, after anticipating this moment would come for so many years, lost Halcyon Renard. I admit I felt genuinely sad for the man’s passing, as inevitable as it has been for all these years. A huge moment. What a fantastic character and, as ever, he kept us guessing to the end.

What I particularly liked is the way this draws together the whole Goliath capture plot so beautifully and makes so much sense of why Renard would put such a plan into effect.

All things considered, “Here in Manhattan” seems to be coming to a really terrific finale and it’s hard to believe how far the universe has come since January. So many great new characters, so many huge changes…

Well done Greg and team for another absolute belter of an issue. [/SPOILER]

Alex: [SPOILER] Huh. To me, Brooklyn definitely feels older than the rest of the Trio. More reserved. More tactical. Less hot-headed. I especially loved him in #5. [/SPOILER]
Ed
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 11:31:05 am EST from 31.94.2.246

So the digital release is two weeks before the paper release? Well, whatever the reason for it, I'll definitely be avoiding spoilers for the next couple of weeks.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 8:04:53 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Absence does truly make the heart grow fonder. After a short break, I found myself really excited reading this.

Spoilers for #1-11 of Gargoyles AND the Halloween Special for those who want to avoid it. [SPOILER] First couple of pages are exciting as all heck, jumping quickly from one sequence and one character to another. I'm really impressed with how Greg's instilled so much personality into characters who really haven't gotten a lot of "Screen time". I feel like I really know Izaak, Yingpei, Dino, Wolf's dad (a lot of names to remember), and a lot of the others. And how quickly the stakes are set up here:

Two innocent people's lives are on the line, and only the trio can save them.

I'm always a bit dubious about a bunch of people being such insightful character witnesses and it kind of amuses me that all these crime lords seem to be just going "Dino could never do anything INTELLIGENT!". Bit of hyperbole on my part, but that does basically seem to be what they're saying. But either way things are not going well for Dino. Brod, Anthony and Izaak all survived the attempts on their life, and everyone's starting to look at Dino.

The Chavez (I... assume that's Chavez, it doesn't REALLY look like Chavez, but context clues tell me it's Cheavez) - Elisa scene is juicy. We all kind of knew this was coming. Unfortunately, because of the timeline, and the Halloween special, we know there aren't going to be any immediate consequences. Which is a bit of an "aw shucks" downer, but isn't too big a deal.

I notice George really loves Broadway raising an eyebrow when he's talking. It's a cute little character beat I'm not sure his TV show model was actually capable of doing since he doesn't really have eyebrows. And I do have to add again, how repeatedly I've been impressed over and over again with Kambadais's art. Feels so fresh and new, but distinct and full of personality without losing the aesthetics of the original show.

There was some conversation this week on Reddit about Brooklyn and how he doesn't really *feel* decades older. I sort of see where folks are coming from, and it is odd that he's not more confident, but it works really well in a dramaturgical sense, so I'm not really bothered with it.

The full page spread of Halcyon's death bed is really shocking. Almost haunting. I think it's that big sea of white linen enveloping him.

...and also apparently the Brooklyn bit was a big fake out anyway. This has been a few issues coming and it feels really triumphant to see the trio back in action together again, especially after Brooklyn left them behind for the prison break out. also Gnash tagging along is really cute. The fourth muskateeer.

Elise comes clean to the captain...is Elisa's explanation to her boss "I didn't tell you about the gargoyles or my relationship with them because being the gargoyles's secret friend made me feel special"? I understand that as a character beat between her and Matt, but as an explanation to her captain it seems a lot flimsier. Matt chimes in to speak up for Elisa, which is nice.

Halcyon leaving a controlling interest of his company to Goliath is *hilarious*. As is Goliath's reaction. As is Xanatos's reaction to Goliath going incorporated. Renard's lucky that Goliath was just declared sentient I suppose. He makes it sound like this was part of a gambit on his part, but... that doesn't make sense to me really? Things could have gone very badly. Also it's kind of cruel to give Goliath this moneyed interest he VERY much doesn't want. Though a tie-breaking vote is only relevant if there's a tie to break. Which is... sort of intriguing what sort of power plays and schemes we could see Vogel, Goliath and Fox (which has to be the oddest threesome this franchise has ever put forth, right?) getting up to.

Queue the EVIL ROBOTS. Kind of a lousy penultimate threat for the comic run, but it's fun to see the trio working together to fight them. Gnash is A LOT of fun here too.

Vogel and Owen together are a fun double act.

Okay, I kinda got caught up just reading the rest. The balance between jumping back and forth between Renard dying and the battle was well done, and also is something that would have never worked in animation, but is great in a comic.

Really liked this one. No further notes really. I guess we'll find out next week what Matt's plan is. Seems likely it'll involve the public event we saw the Gargoyles at in the Halloween special. [/SPOILER]
Alex (Aldrius)
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 5:39:52 am EST from 70.48.45.124

Hi greg, are you done with twitter?
also would love tv recommendations
Pooya
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 4:17:23 am EST from 51.158.238.226

It's not on Play Books yet, that's where I get all my digital comics and books. Though they're usually a bit late.
Kate
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 12:57:17 am EST from 208.102.156.56

Brainiac > Bizarre. Well, I guess we’ve then established that the delay isn’t related to writing or art. I look forward to reading it tomorrow!
Craig
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 12:41:41 am EST from 166.198.251.45

Fair warning, all...the digital releases of #11 have gone out. If you're waiting on a physical copy and are spoiler-averse, goodbye and see you in two weeks.
Brainiac - [OSUBrainiac at gmail dot com]
There is balance in all things. Live in symmetry with the world around you. If you must blow things up and steal from those around you, THAT'S WHAT RPGS ARE FOR!
posted @ Wed, Dec 20, 2023 12:35:03 am EST from 184.54.103.20

Good review, Blaise! Particularly I'm intrigued with you mentioning that Coldstone could be one of Demona's allies in Quest. His more well-reasoned mistrust of humans would contrast quite nicely with Demona's outright hatred. Would love to see what kind of interactions would arise from that pairing in a story.
Kate
posted @ Tue, Dec 19, 2023 10:00:49 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

Thanks for the latest review, Blaise. Some good remarks, including how Slaughter's sharp enough to realize that someone is trying to manipulate him. (I look forward to seeing what fruits that bears in #11 and #12 when they come out.)

I've never subscribed to any streaming services, so I haven't experienced that kind of "instant gratification" binge-watching directly. I've been able to approach it, however, through DVD sets or when a television station runs a "marathon" of television episodes (though in the latter case, those episodes have usually aired one at a time already, a while before). I agree with those who prefer to wait between episodes and digest what they've seen.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Dec 19, 2023 8:20:29 am EST from 174.72.60.154

Incidentally, I brought up how The Adventures of Teddy Ruxpin of all cartoons was a rarity from the 80s that is actually good.

Another one albeit I'm not sure if it aired in the US during the 80s (Canadian Production) is The Raccoons which my first viewing were on the Disney Channel in the early 90s. Anyone else see it often?

They even have a legit YT distribution through the company's channel Run With US Productions.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Dec 19, 2023 12:56:42 am EST from 71.84.183.196

****Cloud of smoke and Blaise appears.****
Master of surprise! (No reason for a Darkwing Duck reference, but do I really need one?)

I hope my mentioning my desire to see more reactions to Brooklyn's new appearance and situation wasn't taken as a full criticism. It's just something I would have liked to see. And yeah, I know the time-skip, brief as it is, kind of precludes most of that (but not all: flashbacks and memories can happen), but I wasn't really complaining about that either.
Whatever I have down on my "wish list," as it were, I am happy to sit back and see where Greg Weisman takes this ride.

BINGE VS SPREAD OUT: PERSONAL PREFERENCE> I'm going to be odd and say "It depends." Generally, I like having things released an episode at a time. I mean, I usually only watch one a night anyway, but beyond that I do like some time to mull it over, too. But some shows, or rather some batches of episodes, hook something in me so thoroughly that I find I clear a day or two on the weekend to finish them. This is usually for sections of a series that include finales and even the run-up to said finale. I have something similar with books: I can read a chapter or two on a given day, but if I'm at a really engrossing part of the story, then...is it nighttime already?! So, yeah, it depends.
I do agree that these days there seems to be (not necessarily *is*, but *seems to be*) a demand for more "instant gratification" if you will. I have seen complaints (not just around "Gargoyles" but even other projects) that seem to demand that EVERYTHING be explained up front or as it happens rather then let a little mystery play out for a bit.
I don't know enough to blame it on the microwave, though.


Well, as promised...
MAYDAY> Coldfire is our narrator today, and I’m glad to hear (or read) her take on things now. For most of the Cold-Trio stories, the focus has largely been on Coldstone (not surprising, since the body wears his face and we were introduced to him first), so it’s refreshing to get a different perspective on their situation. She definitely seems to be calmer about both that and their current predicament (Goliath in captivity) than her mate. Coldstone says that he loves his brother and respects him as leader, but does NOT agree with his decision to trust his fate to the humans and their justice. The subject of Wyvern comes up (hello “Dark Ages: Alliance” synergy!) and Coldstone is clearly not over the Massacre (can't entirely blame him, since he got killed and all), even saying “Mankind cannot be trusted!” I’ll come back to this toward the end of my ramble, but for now Coldfire tries to redirect and tells him to “trust in Goliath and his judgement.”

Speaking of, Goliath awakens to another night in prison, to the derisive comments of his neighbors and guard. Tony’s quipping about the dramatic awakening, Tomas is grousing about how he would have taken out the Gargoyles long ago if he had known their weakness (join the supervillain club, dude), and the guard (who we finally learn is named Renqvist) is a jerk who shocks Goliath right off (to Tony’s delight) because “the city don’t pay me enough to guard monsters...so I’m not taking any chances with the freak!” Dude, he’s just waking up! I’ve heard humans making about as much noise when waking up and stretching--lived with some of them, even. Of course, this is Renqvist being scared and trying to “conquer” that fear in the only way he knows how. It’s a sad, destructive way of doing it, and *I’m* sad to say that far too many people seem to indulge in this kind of behavior whenever they are scared or even just uncomfortable about something. It's like they feel powerless and so they abuse whatever power they feel they have. Again (and this is the primitive reptile brain, speaking), maybe he deserved what Coyote did to him back in “Leader of the Pack.” However, speaking of the Pack, they break in! Or at least, what’s left of them: the mainstays Wolf, Hyena and Jackal. Their dialogue nicely flows into the next scene...

...Where Izaak Slaughter is conferring with two of his men, Murray and Alphabet (the latter of whom I have again cast with Phil LaMarr, this time more in his “Static” or “Fancy Dan” wheelhouse). Turns out the Cybots were stolen during a heist reportedly done by Volkov’s gang, and the RECAP visor was taken from a Xanatos Enterprises truck supposedly hit by Choi’s group. But Slaughter is a bit more canny than his compatriots: he knows it would be odd for Volkov and Choi to team up against him while they’ve already got their own fights going on (word travels real fast in the underworld, it seems), and he correctly deduces that someone is trying to manipulate him into going to war with the two other gangs. This, I think, is where we again see that Dino may not be as clever as he thinks he is. For one thing, he’s overplaying his hand (trying to convince the target of something that stretches belief), but he’s also attempting it against someone who, I believe, has less reason to believe the lie than the others. Things were probably already tense between Choi and Sanchez with the “Romeo & Juliet” situation, and I’m still wondering if there was preexisting bad blood between Volkov and Brod. Slaughter, more than the others, seems to be thinking with a fairly clear head. And that may just start unraveling Dino’s plots...

We now have a brief two-page interlude of Coldfire introspecting. The first line is telling to me, though: “I do not wish to think it a mistake that my mate and I returned to the clan...”. I remember reading years back in Ask Greg that “there would have been a period where Coldstone and Coldfire would have been borderline regulars, but that wouldn’t have been permanent.” (https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?qid=64) Now, that was from a response over 25 years ago [pause for brief bout of sobbing], so plans like that may have changed (especially when you don’t have to pay for actors). However, things like Coldfire’s line here and Coldstone's demeanor make me wonder if the time of their departure may be coming sooner rather than later.
For now, though, I’m glad to learn Coldfire’s view of their past since “Reawakening.” The nod to having no memory of what comes after death, and that “perhaps mortals are forbidden from bringing such knowledge back to the land of the living” was wonderfully evocative. There is an error, unfortunately, where Hyena has the wrong (old) model for the Times Square battle from after the end of “Phoenix”. Annoying, but again, it’s not like the series was able to avoid animation errors. All we can do is shrug. But the gist of this whole bout of navel-gazing is that the Cold-Duo is getting kind of tired of the constant battles and struggles (sounds like the time-skip wasn't exactly uneventful), and Coldstone even more so (since even his own mate says that patience was never one of his virtues).

But we leave them for now and cut back to Rikers for the next two pages as the Pack attacks! Renqvist tries calling for help but Hyena is jamming comms (that little ear thing is good for more than spying, apparently), and there are even more explosions being set off throughout the facility as distractions. Jackal and Hyena are their usual sadistic and comedically terrifying selves, but Wolf is a bit more “on-task” than usual. Thankfully, though, all three of them are evil. What do I mean by that? I will allow the late Sir Terry Pratchett to explain via the narration from “Men at Arms”:
“If you have to look along the shaft of an arrow from the wrong end, if a man has you entirely at his mercy, then hope like hell that man is an evil man. Because the evil like power, power over people, and they want to see you in fear. They want you to know you're going to die. So they'll talk. They'll gloat. They'll watch you squirm. They'll put off the moment of murder like another man will put off a good cigar.
“So hope like hell your captor is an evil man. A good man will kill you with hardly a word.”

Yeah, Wolf has to gloat to Tony about how Dino’s not too bothered by the idea of Tony dying, and is probably even counting on it (pretty perceptive for Wolf), so they don’t blast them right away (Wolf probably wants to say some choice words to the man he thinks tried to kill his father, too) but since the Pack is focused on their target(s), it gives Goliath enough leeway to whisper to Renqvist, saying he can save them all if Renqvist releases him. And Renqvist...actually has to think about it. (Dude, seriously?!)

We cut away for another two pages, but this time each page is it’s own story. First we finally catch up with Rosaria and Peter locked in some wire enclosure and talking to the masked gangsters, “Broadway” and “Lexington,” trying to promise payment from their families if they can be released. Unfortunately, not only do the gangsters not bite, but “Brooklyn” shows up and derides them for thinking they can buy his men. He also derides them for thinking they could fool everyone by thinking their just happening to be in the park at the same time when they saved the kid was a “co-inky-dink.” Only it turns out it was--that was where they met and how they fell in love. “Brooklyn” is incredulous, but the teenagers insist, and he just laughs. I don’t know if that laughter is because he still doesn’t believe them, or if he’s laughing because he just realized that his whole “brilliant” plan came about because of a coincidence. Yeah, again, pretty sure this is Dino, but I’ll allow myself to be surprised.

The next page picks up Brooklyn’s conversation with Lex and Broadway as Coldfire lands nearby to witness it (bit of symmetry here with the False-Trio on the first page and the real Trio on this one). Brooklyn is still trying to get them to understand that they disobeyed a direct order. Yes, it was to save a life, he’s not denying that, but he says they should have come to him first and points out that they wouldn’t have done this to Goliath. I like Brooklyn’s face here: there’s no anger anymore, just an honest appeal to his brothers. And Broadway and Lex are silent for a moment, before saying (as they walk away) that “Goliath would trust his warriors to follow their guts” (prompting Broadway to make a self-deprecating joke). Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like Brooklyn has the better argument here. Of course, he's not entirely right since both Lex and Broadway have disobeyed Goliath in the past: "The Thrill of the Hunt" where Lex let the Pack see him and "Enter Macbeth" where Broadway (and Hudson and Elisa) left the Castle. In both cases, Goliath did eventually concede they had a point, but it took some convincing to get him there. In both of those cases, though, it still felt like they showed more respect to Goliath than they're showing Brooklyn here...but that may just be me. Either way, I look forward to seeing them resolve their issues (to whatever degree they're able to before this arc's end).
Meanwhile Coldfire wonders if the clan is even “salvageable” regardless of Goliath’s presence. Well, that's a bit more pessimistic than is called for, I think. Then again, I suppose this is just the sort of doom-expectancy one can experience when in a particularly low mood...

Back to Rikers and Renqvist *still* needs convincing. It comes in the form of more explosions and one of the Pack saying that they bet no one comes looking up there for hours (I figure it’s Hyena as she’s the one who strikes me as the most likely to enjoy having hours to “play with her food.”). So Renqvist finally presses the release button and Goliath’s manacles fall off. This makes it an interesting reversal of the “Outfoxed” situation to me, as there Goliath could break the chains but needed his jailer to open the bars. Here, he needs his jailer to release the chains and is able to deal with the bars himself...by knocking them from their moorings and using them to smack Jackal unconscious. Of course, that may have been why Goliath needed Renqvist to release the chains--perhaps he could have busted them on his own, but it would have taken too much time and effort and made too much noise when he needed to move quickly and surprise his enemies. On that note...

Now, something I’ve seen brought up by some folks, not just here but on the Facebook groups and Reddit threads, is that some people seem to find it unbelievable that Goliath was able to take these three out by his lonesome. I suppose I can kind of understand, but I definitely do not agree. For one thing, Goliath took both Jackal and Hyena out of a fight with one piece of construction equipment back in “The Green” so it’s not unprecedented for him to do well against multiple of them, even upgraded. Heck, Brooklyn took out Jackal in “Upgrade” with the wooden board from some train tracks! It all depends on the circumstances, environment, and their actions. For example, Goliath probably figures Jackal is A) the single most dangerous person in the room at the moment, and B) in a position to be hit with his cell bars for a quick KO. So first move is taking out Jackal as fast as possible, using the element of surprise and Jackal’s still all-too-human skull. After Jackal's no longer a concern the element of surprise is now lost, but Wolf and Hyena do not gang up on Goliath, removing their superior numbers from the equation, leaving Goliath to just deal with them one at a time. Hyena does give him some trouble, but thankfully she still likes to play with her food and, like her brother, she still has an all-too-human skull (even in “The Green” we can see that’s her weak point). That just leaves Wolf...

Now, I’ll admit, I find the fight here a little hard to follow as the pages and panels seem to be done more “stylistically” than normal (note the absence of even sound effects--this is like a fight with only the music score behind it). I still like it overall, though, because of the weight behind it: Wolf has wanted to fight Goliath like this since...well, since first learning about the gargoyles. Wolf finally got his wish, this time without anyone else around to hinder or help either party. And Wolf *still* loses. I love this moment.

So yeah: I have no problem with Goliath defeating the Pack like this.

Predictably, Goliath again refuses to escape. However, it seems he may have gained some small measure of respect from his neighbors and guard (I'm surprised to see Tony call him "G"). I love the little correction that Goliath is going to be getting a hearing, not being put on trial, but all three are aware that this is a big risk for Goliath to take.

We close out with more musings by Coldfire, and now I’m wondering if she had the same thought I did earlier about “doom-expectancy” while being at a low point. She lists the way her clan has survived “trials and tribulations” in the past (while pausing to add “if one can deem this metal-encased existence survival”). She chooses to withhold judgement until after Goliath’s hearing, and the humans’ final judgement regarding him.

And we close out with some (to me) humorous attempts at blurbs for next issue!

One criticism I’ve seen about this issue is people saying Coldfire as narrator was pointless since she didn’t “do” anything in the story. Maybe not, but I still appreciate her narration as something like a Chorus in Greek theatre--observing and commenting on events. Also, like I said, I’m wondering if the Cold-Duo may shortly be leaving the clan again, in which case Coldfire’s thoughts and introspection would be laying the pipe for just such a thing.

And then there’s Coldstone. I’ve opined before that he’s still very much in a 10th century mindset, but here I think he is really starting to sour on humans in general. Some of that is probably the growing impatience, as Coldfire said, but I’m wondering about something else: have Coldstone and Coldfire been made aware of Demona’s part in the Wyvern Massacre? Or are they still operating under what Demona told Coldstone back in "Reawakening" about how they had been "smashed to dust by the humans [Goliath] trusted." I mean, they’ve been with the Manhattan clan for 4-5 months, so it’s entirely possible they learned the whole truth at some point, but I don’t recall us ever seeing any indication of it. And now I start to wonder, assuming they *don't know*, if Coldstone could be acting as an ally for Demona in the upcoming “Quest.” It seems a bit much now, sure, but it’s a possibility I’ve started to consider.


All right! One more issue and I'll be caught up.
****Blaise is enveloped by another cloud of smoke...which dissipates and leaves him standing there looking very embarrassed. He pulls a "look over there!" and tries to run out of the Room when everyone's back is turned. He almost makes it out without tripping.****
Blaise
"There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish sometimes."--The Doctor
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 11:34:39 pm EST from 45.48.54.221

Sorry for the double post. It occurs to me also that, if some people are starting to get antsy about the pacing of the series, the one-year anniversary of the first issue is a logical time for that to be happening, on a psychological level. It's natural for humans to reflect when we reach milestones, and looking back on the progress of the comic over a one-year period is a nice, digestible way to gauge how satisfied, or unsatisfied, we are with what we've gotten. For my part, the comic has just been getting better and better with each issue, so I'm incredibly satisfied overall.

One sentiment I've also seen expressed on reddit is a fear of cancelation...that Greg should be dealing with the stuff that these particular readers feel is important (e.g., the Timedancer aftermath) because there may not be an infinite number of issues. I get that, since this fandom has been burned before (by The Goliath Chronicles, and then the abrupt cancelation of the SLG line, as well as the long gaps in between revivals). But by all available information, the Dynamite run is hale and hearty sales-wise, and even as an inveterate pessimist, I'm very much expecting a nice long run. In any event, people really need to just remember how lucky we are to be getting ANYTHING. Every page of new Gargoyles is a gift that I truly never expected at this point. As I've said before, the release of every issue really feels like Christmas for my ten-year-old self.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 10:17:46 pm EST from 24.46.162.10

It's true that four months have passed since Brooklyn's return, but it was also a deliberate decision on Greg's part to incorporate that time jump, and I think that's the complaint that some people have. Obviously, there were very good and pragmatic reasons that he made that choice: It's abundantly clear that he wanted "A Little Crazy" to be a fresh entry point for new and lapsed fans. But I can understand the annoyance over the fact that he skipped over a hugely significant moment in the clan's history, while I also feel personally confident that he will eventually loop back and portray that immediate aftermath in a flashback at some point (it's just too juicy not to).

Todd > I do hope that the podcast addresses that animation weirdness in "Shadows of the Past" (as we discussed a few weeks ago, Elisa asking if there are any caves nearby for shelter when they're clearly standing right in front of a cave, etc.). I remember in Greg's rambling for the episode, he discusses the two big battles he and Paur had with Japan (Elisa's parka and the gaping hole that should be present in the cliff), but it seems like this other visual issue with the presence of the rookery fell through the cracks. I wonder how conscious Greg was of that at the time, or what his thoughts are looking back now, having written the rookery into the comics.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 9:53:29 pm EST from 24.46.161.32

Count me as another of those who think that much of the reason why we haven't seen the full response to the clan over the after-effects of "Timedancer" is that "Here in Manhattan" is set a few months after Brooklyn's adventure, meaning that the initial shock of his change has faded to some extent; the clan is getting more used to it. Not fully adjusting yet, perhaps, but it's certainly not on the level as the first night or two after that happened.

But it would be worth exploring - not only the changes to Brooklyn himself, but also the fact that the clan also has a few new members, including a kid and an egg - the first gargoyle kid (I'm not certain that the gargoyle equivalent of ten or so counts as a hatchling, but it's close) and egg that the clan has had since the Wyvern Massacre. That's certainly going to make a difference. (I remember speculating about the clan building a rookery for Egwardo, until we found out in #2 that the original rookery had been transported to the Eyrie Building alongside the rest of the castle. As I mentioned before, I was under the impression from how "Shadows of the Past" depicted the former site of the castle that the rookery cave was still there. I suppose it was an animation error; it'll make a good discussion topic for when "Voices of the Eyrie" reaches "Shadows of the Past".)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 9:15:06 pm EST from 174.72.60.154

In agreement on the instant satisfaction aspect. My own personal concerns were more that the TimeDancer element needed to be something addressed sooner than later, but I'm sure Greg has something good in mind for it and we'll see all of that come to pass if the comics continue.
Going deeper into the topic though, there has been a real decay in the social aspect around television. Binge culture and shows having their entire season dumped all at once onto a streaming service really make it hard for the discussion of individual episodes to happen. Some shows are even written around this now, where absolutely nothing eventful or interesting happens until the season finales. Some platforms are better about this than others, but it's still a concerning trend.
I had a bit of this problem myself when watching Gargoyles for the first time earlier this year. I remember the episodes as individuals, but their exact placements and what events happen in what order became a bit skewed to me because I binged the episodes in bursts.
Kate
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 3:51:19 pm EST from 208.102.156.56

We've waited 975 weeks for this moment. We can wait a little longer!
Ed
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 2:41:20 pm EST from 31.94.2.246

Bishansky > I'm with you on being an "old fart" who prefers the slow-drip nature of weekly releases as opposed to binge dumps. And I do think there's a sizable portion of the public that feels the same way, even if they don't THINK they do. I hate to bring Star Wars up again, but I think a big part of the appeal of The Mandalorian and other early Disney+ shows like WandaVision and Loki was the weekly release schedule, allowing that "water cooler" talk (as well as the modern equivalent, online speculation and debate). I do think that release style has come back into vogue. That being said, I'd love to get a Gargoyles comic ever day. ;) The time dilation in comics can be a frustrating factor, too. In the past year of our time, we've only lived about a week of the gargoyles' lives.

All that being said, I think Timedancer was going to be a controversial big swing no matter the medium. I remember reading the concept on Ask Greg in 1998 or whenever Greg first revealed it, and thinking, "Well...THAT's interesting. How exactly was that going to work?!"
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 10:40:09 am EST from 24.46.162.103

I have thoughts on this, also. The scheduling of a monthly comic is a part of it. Combined with the fact that we very much live in an "instant gratification society" (personally, I blame the microwave but even that's too slow for some people)... I mean, look at the people out there who complain when entire seasons aren't dropped all at once on streaming services the way Netflix does it.

Personally, I like breathing room between episodes, issues, installments... the "water cooler talk", the speculation, the absorbing of it. It's great. When Netflix dropped entire seasons, it was a race to watch it all before the internet spoiled it. But some people prefer that... and say (and I've been told this) that I think like "an old fart".

I think another aspect they're not taking into consideration... had issues one, two, and three of the Dynamite run been issues thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen of the SLG run... we might have gotten a little bit more of that up front. But the opening issues of "Here In Manhattan" had to re-introduce EVERYTHING! Maybe this is the larger crux.

I was told that one of these people, elsewhere, snidely asked "who is this comic for?" Well... so far I feel like one of the people it's for. Am I more patient with it than I might be with a writer that I trust less? Of course, I won't pretend otherwise. But when you have a great track record, you receive that trust. Look at all the people who complained about not seeing the "first meeting" between Goliath and Tobe Crest in #5 and #6... and then, come #7 we got it and it was part of the intrigue.

But some people just don't want to be patient. And I suppose I shouldn't expect them to feel obligated to be. Damn you, microwave.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 8:36:46 am EST from 67.189.167.107

Second.

Good thoughts, Craig. It is also worth noting that several months passed between Phoenix and A Little Crazy. While we the audience didn't get to see the aftermath of TimeDancer and, there was a good chunk of time for the characters to adjust. And who is to say that they have adjusted fully? A lot of Brooklyn's struggles in Here in Manhattan might stem from a failure to reintegrate seamlessly. And I suspect that some of this is yet to come in the Trio's assumed conversation.
Matt
"And, thus, given no choice, we waited..." - Alesand, "The Reach"
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 8:26:57 am EST from 204.184.178.1

Whoops. First, I guess.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 12:14:41 am EST from 12.74.238.26

It’s a big cast to service with 22 pages an issue, and the gap of a month or more between issues (as opposed to a day or a week between episodes in the 1990s) puts more pressure on every issue, every page, every panel to deliver what any individual reader might want to see. I also find myself feeling conflicted about the trend in modern comics to have a lot of full-page splash panels, less panels per page in general, etc. Older comics (I’m talking even up through the early 2000s) tended to get out a lot more story per issue. Now the trend is to let the art “breathe” and to draw stories out longer. Granted, Greg still manages to get a LOT into every issue—it almost feels like a magic trick—but he’s also put a lot of balls in the air in terms of story and sheer volume of characters in this first arc. So it’s a give-and-take. I can see how people would be frustrated by the lack of focus on the clan’s reaction to Brooklyn’s VERY dramatic sudden change in circumstances. It does feel like he has re-acclimated back into the clan way more easily than I would have expected, and it might have been interesting to see the immediate aftermath. I also think that, while I enjoyed Katana as narrator in #10, her narration didn’t provide a ton of insight into her character (a recurring complaint I have about the narration, which tends to act more as color commentary on the action). But the Halloween Special absolutely gave us a great sense of Katana and Gnash. They were the core of that story, and I feel like I have a much better sense of them now and am excited to see more of them.

And, as someone who LOVES that Greg devoted two full issues to the court proceeding (those were my favorite two issues to date), I really can’t complain about any pacing issues. That was a really ballsy move that paid off brilliantly. It’s just an unfortunate reality that Greg has to make hard choices about what to focus on given the abundance of riches he’s created. He’s clearly enjoying slow-leaking teases about the Timedance, and eventually that will pay off more.
Craig
posted @ Mon, Dec 18, 2023 12:14:04 am EST from 12.74.238.26