I think one of the reasons Hudson's line about not believing everything on TV doesn't seem like an overblown "moral of the story" is that there are more morals to this story than just that one: Lexington and Goliath also talk about how hunting for sport is wrong, and Goliath even says that those who hunt for sport are worse than animals. At the end they also talk about how they have to be careful whom they trust, but they still need to live in this world and find allies where they can, not unlike Elisa's line from the previous episode: "You've got to trust somebody in this world."
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sun, Nov 3, 2024 9:50:15 am EST from 73.210.12.31

Some good comments on "The Thrill of the Hunt", and especially why such an episode appeared where it did.

In his ramble on this episode, Greg Weisman commented on Wolf's "monsters sent by the Evil Ninjas" stratagem that he'd like to have Wolf go back to a bit more smarts if he had the opportunity, and I think he did just that in "Here in Manhattan", where Wolf, before making the raid on Rikers, has the sense to meet with Dino to make certain he doesn't have any problems with Tony becoming a casualty in the process.

One thing that strikes me in Goliath and Lexington's debate is the use of the word "alone" in it. It stands out more, of course, thanks to a major line in "City of Stone Part Four".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sun, Nov 3, 2024 7:26:50 am EST from 68.99.93.213

For starters, rest well, Mr. Rachins. You were a spectacular Osborn and wonderfully nailed his ego, arrogance, and menace. When you truly hate the villain you know the actor has done their job.

Now for "Thrill of the Hunt." I agree that it is a bit of a breather which is what was needed after the five part opener. This would be one of the few times the show honestly dipped its toe into the Saturday Morning Cartoon style but there is a reason. Gargoyles was going to have its own rogues gallery and a themed-team of mercenaries who hunt for money or the thrill of it was a good place to start. And it works out well for those who would start to develop more rounded personalities like Fox or Dingo. And then those who'd devolve further like the rest.

When I reviewed this episode I mentioned how surprising it is that it didn't focus on the classic "don't believe everything you see on TV" message over the need to find kindred spirits even if there's the chance they get burned. Goliath's warnings about being alone show he's still smarting from the last betrayal.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sun, Nov 3, 2024 1:54:30 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

Antiyonder > One of the things that I always appreciated about Gargoyles was the fact that, when villains suffer legal consequences, it's made clear what they were actually charged with and/or convicted of. It's an element of realism that was absent from most animated series of the era. This was demonstrated early on with both Xanatos and the Pack. The only Pack members witnessed committing a crime were Fox and Wolf, holding the model hostage.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 10:48:25 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

Craig>

I would definitely say The Thrill of the Hunt probably works as a breather considering how much went down in the pilot with the clan having most members dead due to betrayal, plus ending up in a new time and place where they have to hide for the most part. And of course some pretty heavy moments in the episode to follow.

Incidentally we get a rare bit of thinking from Wolf in telling Billy and Susan that they are merely fighting creatures serving the evil ninjas.

One nice touch in the follow up to the episode also being the emphasis on detail/continuity in that the entirety of The Pack aren't all jailed as only two members were caught in criminal activity.
Antiyonder
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 10:32:41 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

Sorry for the double post. As to Alan Rachins - he was likely best known for his role as Douglas Brackman on 'L.A. Law,' a show created by his brother-in-law, Steve Bochco. Bochco of course also created 'Hill Street Blues,' a major influence on Gargoyles.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 9:26:40 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

Greg has spoken in the past about how Goliath's attitude towards killing rapidly evolved when he arrived in 1994. While he would have had a more pragmatic, brutal approach to battle in the medieval ages (as we saw in that brilliant Dark Ages moment when he says that not a man within perished by the flame), in the 20th century, he very quickly adapted to view killing as a last resort, and to view life as precious. Perhaps we see the precise moment that he makes that mental leap in "Awakening: Part 5." Greg has also mentioned that Hudson's intent was not necessarily to discourage Goliath from killing Xanatos. He's not making a moral judgment either way...he's just being a good advisor, making sure that Goliath fully understands the consequences of his actions. It's important to recognize that Goliath has only been in this twentieth-century world for three nights. It's INSANE how quickly he adapts to the new moral norms of the era...and all the more impressive given that he doesn't have any members of his own species to give him guidance. His decision not to kill his enemy is purely based on what he's learned about HUMAN culture in this era, and in particular (presumably), what Elisa has told him about her role enacting human justice. It speaks volumes to Goliath's adaptability and openness to others' viewpoints (human and gargoyle alike).

I sadly will never know whether I would have caught on to the "twist" of Demona's heel turn, since I was spoiled on that (and also on Xanatos's heel turn) by a Disney Adventures story--written by Michael Reaves--which was published prior to the show airing. (This same story also matter-of-factly stated that Brooklyn was the clan's second-in-command, spoiling the ending of "Upgrade" more than a year in advance! I'd actually just been assuming that Brooklyn WAS the second, and was surprised that it came up as a contested issue in that episode.) I think that I probably would have caught that something was "off" about Demona due to some of her comments and Marina's performance, but I'll never know for sure.

"The Thrill of the Hunt" was definitely a letdown for me on first viewing after "Awakening." It felt like a much more conventional "afternoon action cartoon." Part of that was obviously by design, as the episode was a SATIRE of kids' shows (such as 'Power Rangers,' ironically). The seeds are there for how fully-developed characters like Fox and Dingo became, but it's definitely an episode that I appreciate more in light of what came after, as opposed to on its merits. The Xanatos Tag, which created a trope that extends well beyond Gargoyles, was by far my favorite part of the episode on initial viewing, and gave me hope that the series would continue to be as smart and interesting as the opening serial had indicated. "Temptation" and "Deadly Force" definitely got me fully back on board.
Craig
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 9:22:55 pm EDT from 69.118.30.106

BISHANSKY - Thank you for sharing the news with us.

I noticed how angry and bitter Demona was in Part One of "Awakening", expressing her indignation in how Princess Katharine and her court were treating the gargoyles, confronting the refugees such as Mary alongside Lexington, Brooklyn, and Bronx, so I wasn't surprised in her increasing hostility towards humans in the present day. I can't recall now, though, whether I was surprised at the revelation that she was working with the Captain in the betrayal of the castle.

Rewatched "The Thrill of the Hunt" today. The first single episode of "Gargoyles", and also the first of the three episodes focusing on each of the trio in turn. I don't think it has as much depth as "Temptation" and "Deadly Force" (or "Awakening", for that matter), being much more straightforward action (the Pack hunting Goliath and Lexington), but it has some good moments, all the same.

We open with the set-up for a thread that will play a major part in the first season; the gargoyles can't stay in the castle. Xanatos will soon be back, and they have to leave before he returns. Elisa recognizes this, but Goliath refuses to accept it. He's in the wrong, of course, but understandably so; the castle is the gargoyles' home, and one of their last links to their old lives. Leaving it seems simply unthinkable to him. (And being very fond of castles, if I lived in one, I'd be reluctant to move out myself.) Nothing further is said about this problem for the remainder of the episode, but we know that it'll have to be addressed - particularly when we find out at the end that even in prison, Xanatos is still a force to be reckoned with.

I mentioned in my reviews of "Awakening" that one of my favorite elements of the modern-day part was seeing the gargoyles' response to the modern world, and we see a bit more of it here. They're all still (except for Goliath) intrigued by the television, which Hudson calls "the picture-box", and also are really gung-ho about "The Pack" - and don't realize that there's a difference between actors and the roles they play. (A particular triumph in this episode is Hudson's line at the end about how they shouldn't believe what they see on television. The way it was done, including Ed Asner's delivery, it didn't feel like a "moral of the story". It felt like a person from the Middle Ages seeking to understand better his new surroundings, and learning from what he'd just experienced.) I also particularly liked the touch of Lexington calling both the Pack and Elisa "defenders of the realm", which feels very medieval.

And much of the episode still comes across as quite funny, amid the adventure and peril for the gargoyles. I still get a kick out of the announcer shouting "Oh, no, it's the Evil Ninjas!" - it caught the feeling of the overblown narrator perfectly. And the scene where Billy and Susan show up just as the Pack are about to finish the gargoyles off, and Fox and Hyena are groaning over their picking that exact moment to arrive. (And I doubt any of us even suspected that, just three years later from an "in-story" perspective, they'd be making friends with a gargoyle - and a couple of gargoyle beasts, at that.)

We also get that roof filled with architectural gargoyles, a very atmospheric and appropriate setting. Including Dingo getting rattled enough to shoot a gargoyle statue's head off, and the moment where one of those "statues" moves and is revealed as being Goliath. It's been brought up before, but I'll mention it anyway; once we get to the roof, we start seeing the fight through the Pack's eyes rather than the gargoyles', and now the gargoyles start appearing the stuff of nightmares.

Wolf's cry "It talks!" when Lexington addresses the Pack is another reminder that humans aren't going to expect gargoyles to be sentient beings right away. (Elisa was just as surprised, when Goliath first spoke to her, back in "Awakening Part Three". I'll confess that one of my favorite such moments is apocryphal, though - Spiderman's response in the crossover Radio Play, astonished that Goliath: a) can talk, b) can read, and c) among the things he reads are J. Jonah Jameson's anti-Spiderman editorials in the Daily Bugle.)

Fox mentions reports of "gargoyles coming to life". I doubt that anyone (apart from Xanatos, Elisa, and Owen, who'd all be keeping that a secret) had literally seen the gargoyles awakening from stone sleep yet, so most likely this just meant seeing the gargoyles gliding about (and there were a few witnesses who'd mention that: Brendan and Margot, Vinnie - we get the details of his reporting Lexington on his motorcycle many episodes later, of course - the taxi driver whom Brooklyn hailed, and maybe whoever was in charge of the pretzel cart whose contents Broadway helped himself to).

Owen tells Elisa at the start of the episode that Xanatos "is not the sort to harbor a grudge" - our first look at Xanatos having no time for revenge. And, of course, at the end we get an even closer look at one of his best-known features - the way his plans are more ingenious than you expected, and definitely about something deeper than disposing of the gargoyles; something that makes him very different from your everyday cartoon antagonist.

QUOTES.

ELISA (about Castle Wyvern): Xanatos bought it, lock, stock, and gargoyle.


ELISA (about Goliath): I think your head stays rock hard even at night.


WOLF: Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim, wolves gotta hunt.


LEXINGTON (about the Pack): They're just like us. They defend the innocent, and they do it on television!


WOLF: Let the hunt begin!


LEXINGTON: They're no more than animals.

GOLIATH: Worse than that. An animal hunts because it's hungry. These hunters do it for sport.


FOX (as Billy and Susan rush up to them): Wonderful. Our adoring public.

HYENA: Perfect timing.


GOLIATH: We can't hide from the world. We must live in it. We must search for allies, kindred spirits. And sometimes we must take chances, like we did tonight. To do otherwise... is to remain forever alone.


XANATOS: All in all, I'd say the test was most... informative.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 8:25:10 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Alan Rachins, the voice of Norman Osborn on "The Spectacular Spider-Man" has passed away.

He was a great talent and a class act; he will be missed. I hope he never once apologized for a great career.
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 7:34:34 pm EDT from 67.189.200.184

Was Demona a twist villain? I dunno, did people see her betrayal coming? It seems kind of obvious, but I don't actually remember if I guessed in advance. I do remember kind of going along with her "look at what they did, they had to pay" until Goliath's armor-piercing line "none of this would have happened if it weren't for you." The simple clarity of that statement really struck me.

"I do like how cool Xanatos is even after the scheme is foiled. Smugly reminding Goliath that if not for his scheme he and his family would still be cursed, all while counting on Goliath or Elisa's moral compass to bail him out."

Xanatos is Mr. Contingency, I'm convinced he had a spare robot or something else to catch him in the event Goliath threw him off the side.
Jurgan - [jurgan6 at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 5:30:50 pm EDT from 75.233.83.254

Thanks for the reviews of Awakening, Todd.

I think Goliath already knew that if he killed Xanatos, he would be the same as Demona, based on his line, "She wanted me to destroy humanity." I suspect that Hudson asking "Is that what you want?" did more to dissuade him than Elisa's comment.

Or maybe hearing the words coming from Elisa reminded Goliath of what being "the same as Demona" would do to his relationship with Elisa.
Paul - [nampahcfluap at yahoo dot com]
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 5:10:09 pm EDT from 73.210.12.31

MATTHEW - Thank you for your comments. And, yes, Goliath's discovery about just how much Demona has changed - and that she helped bring about the Wyvern Massacre - is a very effective moment. (Adding to the drama is the fact that he'd initially thought she was among the gargoyles killed in the massacre, then discovered that she'd lived after all and was in the present-day, is joyful at being so unexpectedly reunited with her - only to then learn what she's become, meaning an even deeper parting. It makes that revelation all the more devastating.)

I've something to say about part of Demona's speeches in "Awakening Part Five", but I'm saving that for my review of "Temptation".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 9:01:05 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Nice work on part 5, Todd. Demona's turn is practically the original Disney twist villain (take that Frozen!) and Marina sells the loathing and misguided anger for all its worth. What's especially effective at the reveal is everyone's reaction to it, the rest of the clan are stunned to the point of being unable to move and Goliath is heartbroken to the point of tears. His closest human ally and his mate not only betrayed the home they swore to protect but were party to the massacre of their people. And at the end of it, Goliath is alone once more, though on a more personal level.

I do like how cool Xanatos is even after the scheme is foiled. Smugly reminding Goliath that if not for his scheme he and his family would still be cursed, all while counting on Goliath or Elisa's moral compass to bail him out.

Looking back, this five-parter works so well as a movie because when you take the parts together it's an exceptionally well done story. And one important part is that it knows how to balance the elements set in the present with those in the past. We didn't know that there would be plenty more stories to tell in that era so it initially felt like the background given for the "fish out of temporal water" part of the characters. And yet those sections feel just as important as the bits in present.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Sat, Nov 2, 2024 2:01:54 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

MORRAND - Thanks for sharing that story with us. I don't know if it did indeed inspire "The Gargoyle Hunters", but it's a possibility.

I've recently been rereading Sir Thomas Malory's "Le Morte d'Arthur", particularly the description of the final war between King Arthur and Mordred; in it, Malory mentions how a lot of Arthur's people supported the usurping Mordred against him, blaming it on fickleness and commenting that it's a long-standing fault of the English/British (probably influenced on what he'd witnessed during the Wars of the Roses, with many switching loyalties back and forth between the Houses of Lancaster and York): "there may no thing us please no term [time - i.e. "please us for long"]". I wonder if similar fickleness arose among the humans of Castle Wyvern.

I forgot to mention one important moment in Goliath and Demona's exchange, when Goliath points out to Demona that she's responsible (technically, partly responsible: the Captain did the bulk of the actual work - meeting with the Vikings, cutting the bow-strings, opening the gates - but she certainly agreed with it) for the sack of Castle Wyvern and the slaughter of nearly all the gargoyles there, she cries "Don't say that!" in a very painful way. A hint of the revelation to come (in "City of Stone Part One") that what's really driving her is her guilt over her part in the massacre, and refusal to face it.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 9:00:48 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Happy Halloween!

Matt and CarumboZabumbo: Besides that, familiarity breeds contempt. I can see a line over which the humans at Wyvern gradually get used to being protected by their gargoyles, then lose their fear of them (mostly, but not quite enough), then lose their respect for them. Particularly if, as it seems, the norm among the Wyvern gargoyles is to be respectful of the humans. Under those conditions, any wonder that Demona's answer is to put fear back in the humans?

This does not fill me with great confidence in the future of the Manhattan clan, actually, though I suppose there are more people (and more turnover) in Manhattan, probably enough to keep them from getting too familiar with the gargoyles. (On the other hand, mass media is now a thing, too, so....)

Todd Jensen: Your description of "The Gargoyle Hunter" reminded me of the story of Richard Nickel, the photographer and preservationist active in Chicago in the late 1960s and early 1970s who died for his work (part of the under-demolition Chicago Stock Exchange fell on him while he was trying to salvage some of its decoration). I haven't read the novel, but it sure sounds like Nickel's story could have provided a little inspiration.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 8:42:59 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

In the first paragraph, should have been "concept", not "comment". I've got to learn to proofread these posts before I push the button.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 8:38:55 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

MATTHEW - Thanks for your comments on Parts Three and Four, and some good analysis on them. (The part about "detective" being not only a recent word but a recent comment reminded me of a book I'm currently writing; more about that some other time.)

I re-watched "Awakening Part Five" today. It effectively wraps up the opening five-parter, as Goliath and the other gargoyles carry out their raid, bring back the discs - and then discover the truth about Xanatos and Demona - but still win out, with some help from Elisa.

Xanatos told the gargoyles that they needed to hit all three bases at once, to keep any of them from alerting the others. The gargoyles don't succeed at that, of course - probably a case of "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy", but it also enabled a great exchange at the air fortress (see the Quotes section below).

While Hudson and the trio's adventures are relatively light-hearted (I still find the part where Hudson slams his fist on the control panel and just happens to hit the right button to release the disc one of the funniest moments in the episode), Goliath and Demona's raid takes a much darker turn, as Demona destroys the airship. We know that Vinnie got off, but I've my doubts about many of the other Cyberbiotics personnel on board, and Goliath is understandably unsettled. While his joy at being unexpectedly reunited with his Angel of the Night might have temporarily driven his next meeting with Elisa from his thoughts, his horror at her bloodthirstiness undoes that.

And we learn at last that Xanatos was using the gargoyles all this time - confirming our suspicions, if we had them (I know I had a few) - and leading to a bigger revelation, that Demona was part of the betrayal plan alongside the Captain. Goliath's response is very effective - increasingly horrified shock at discovering that the "Angel of the Night" is gone in an even worse manner than being smashed by the Vikings. We even see tears forming in his eyes. And when Elisa comes to the rescue and saves his life, leading to her and Demona both falling off the castle and he can only save one - he rescues Elisa, of course, but it's clear that, even after what Demona did, he's filled with anguish at seeing her seemingly falling to her death and unable to do anything about it. (Of course, we know that she survives - will learn that just a couple of episodes later - but he doesn't know that at the time.) But it ends on a more upbeat tone, even humorous, as we'll see.

And we get a few hints that Demona was lying about being in stone sleep all this time as well. For one thing, she's gotten way too bitter (even given that she was part of the plot to betray the castle) to have been in stasis during the past thousand years. And, of course, there's the part about getting her own name from the humans "long ago". We'll have this confirmed in later episodes.

A great beginning to the series. And a lot of good quotes, too. (It took a while to get them all down; I may have to learn shorthand.)

QUOTES.

BROOKLYN (to the Cyberbiotics guards): Heh. Sorry, wrong floor.


CYBERBIOTICS GUARD (to Hudson): I don't know what sort of thing you are, but I'm betting you're not bullet-proof.

HUDSON: Aye. That's a wager you'd win.


HUDSON (to Bronx): Ach, away with you. You need to be losing weight, and that's a fact.


CYBERBIOTICS OFFICER: Stations One and Two have been breached. We've lost two-thirds of the data.

DEMONA (as she and Goliath make their grand entrance): Wrong. You've lost it all.


GOLIATH: I have promised to meet a friend. I'll be back soon.

DEMONA: A friend? Who? Not one of us.

GOLIATH: No, a human. Elisa Maza.

DEMONA: Aside from Xanatos, we have no human friends, nor should we. Humanity is our enemy, Goliath. I thought you learned that a millennium ago.

GOLIATH: I cannot make war on an entire world. Doesn't Xanatos show that there are good humans as well as bad?

DEMONA: Can you forgive the humans for what they did to our kind?

GOLIKATH: The ones responsible for that have been dead for a thousand years.

DEMONA: Then their descendants will pay! I will have blood for blood.

GOLIATH: You said the centuries have changed me. They've changed you, as well. You've become hard, unforgiving. You are not as I remember you. I'm going to meet my friend now.

DEMONA: So be it.


XANATOS: Goliath, it seems, is too hard to control. A pity.


ELISA: Listen, Goliath. We haven't known each other very long, and I know you don't have any good reason to trust humans. But you've got to trust somebody in this world, and I think you're better off trusting me than Xanatos.

[Goliath ponders her words, then growls.]

ELISA: You won't regret it.


XANATOS: I'm afraid the gargoyles have outlived their usefulness. I can't count on their loyalty.


XANATOS (watching the Steel Clan battle the trio): What did I tell you, Owen? A vast improvement. They're steel instead of stone, they don't sleep during the day, they can fly instead of glide, and best of all, they're 100 % obeeient.


HUDSON: And they say the Middle Ages were barbaric.


XANATOS (to the rest of the clan, as Demona confronts Goliath): Hold it. Let's just let them play out their little drama, shall we?

DEMONA: Goliath, you're a fool. But then, you always were, weren't you? If you'd only taken the rest of our clan away from the castle that night. The plan was perfect.

GOLIATH: Plan?

DEMONA: It would have succeeded.

GOLIATH: What plan?

DEMONA: I made a bargain with the Captain. I was to get us all out of the castle, so the Vikings could sack it.

GOLIATH: What?

DEMONA: It would have succeeded. And after the humans were gone, we would have had the castle all to ourselves. But you ruined it. You had to protect the humans. You made us stay at the castle when we should have been with you. When the Vikings attacked, the Captain said he'd protect us. But I didn't trust him. I've stayed alive because I don't trust anyone.

GOLIATH: But why did you do it?

DEMONA: You can ask me that? After how they treated us, they had to pay. All humanity has to pay for what they did to our kind.

GOLIATH: There is good and evil in all of us, human and gargoyle alike. You should know that, more than anyone. Don't you see? None of this would have happened if it hadn't been for you.

DEMONA: Don't say that! Goliath, this is your last chance. Humanity is a poison that must be purged from this planet. Together, you and I can create a new world for our kind. You trusted me once. You loved me once. We have found each other again after a thousand years of solitude. Does that mean nothing to you?

[Goliath is silent, sadly contemplating how much she has changed for the worse.]

DEMONA: Very well, then. If you are not my ally, you are my enemy.


DEMONA: I have a name too, Goliath. The humans gave it to me long ago. You should know it before you die. I am Demona.


GOLIATH (dangling Xanatos over the castle wall): She wanted me to destroy humanity. I think I'll start with you.

XANATOS: Go ahead. Without me, you'd still be gathering moss.

ELISA: No, Goliath. Don't do it.

GOLIATH: Give me one good reason not to drop him.

ELISA: Because if you do, you'll be the same as Demona.

HUDSON: She's right, lad. Is that what you want?

GOLIATH: No.


GOLIATH: It's nice to know I have at lease one human friend in this new world.

ELISA: I hope you have more, lots more. But whether you do or not, I'll always be your friend, Goliath. Same time tomorrow night?

GOLIATH: I wouldn't miss it.

ELISA: Good. Maybe we'll catch a Giants game.

GOLIATH: Giants?

[The sun rises and he turns to stone at that moment.]

ELISA: Hmmm.... I wonder if this city's ready for you guys.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 8:37:47 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Thanks Todd, I played around with an unconventional rhyme scheme for this one.

Now for Awakening parts 3 and 4. Good mention that despite Goliath's grim mood and melancholy over the world-shattering change of their lives, he's still a heroic figure and won't let a stranger fall to her death, even if he doesn't trust humans. Plus, I get a kick at his weary sigh when he tells her to trust him as he scales the building. It's very, "I've done this a million times, you don't need to worry."

Oh, did some digging. The word "detective" didn't really exist until the mid-nineteenth century. Police forces and constabularies weren't all that common before the 1800's and criminology as a science took awhile before it found its feet.

For part 4, I really enjoyed how the episode set the foundation of the different characters' personalities here, Brooklyn is the snarky one, Lex is the smart one, Broadway's the hungry one and Hudson the grump. We'll soon see that they are far more than just these character niches. It's quickly mentioned but the comment about Goliath not abiding by the "Thou Shall Not Kill" rule sets him apart from standard heroic leads in animation, which makes sense considering he's from the far more ruthless medieval era. But at the same time he has a code and is visibly disturbed my the notion of killing the defenseless, enemy or not.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 5:45:03 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Happy Halloween, everyone!

MATTHEW - Thanks for the poem. I'd forgotten about your poem-cycle.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 9:00:35 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Happy Halloween everyone! I come bearing not a trick and certainly not a treat, but another section of my monthly poem, "A Year on the Streets."

October

The chill is creeping back and I remember the past,
Of homes that just don’t last and friends who aren’t coming back.
I remember when we were five, like fingers on a hand.
Now just a one-man-band and the struggle to stay alive.

Mary wandered off one night; God knows where she went.
The last fragments of her mind spent, and then began the fight.
Over who was supposed to watch her, the arguments turned sore.
And we were down to four, the rest an awful blur.

Alex went the next year, from the poison in his veins.
We were stuck with his remains and I wish I could shed a tear.
But it was plain for all to see that he would self-destruct.
The group would break and erupt when we were down to three.

Tom and Dale got into a fight, probably over the stash.
I still remember the sounds of that awful clash, I didn’t sleep that night.
The chill of the air cuts to the bone and I’m left with my craving.
Memories of lost friends not worth braving. Battling my demons all alone.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Thu, Oct 31, 2024 8:10:42 am EDT from 135.180.3.149

We know that Prince Malcolm unwittingly laid the seeds of fear in Princess Katharine by using the gargoyles as bogeymen to scare her into good behavior, and I can imagine that many people in Castle Wyvern adopted her prejudices in a "follow the leader" mentality.

I watched "Awakening Part Four" today.

First, one feature of Part Two I forgot to mention. In that episode, when Xanatos is speaking to the newly-awakened Goliath, he lays his hand on Goliath's shoulder for a moment. I suspect that that was when he planted the tracking device on him, the same tracking device that gets revealed in this episode. If so, it's a good case of playing fair with the audience (and it's not the last time that when someone planted a bug on Goliath, we saw them touch him in the course of the episode, before the bug was revealed). (It reminds me a bit of the discussion here some years ago about the episode of "The Spectacular Spider-Man" where the Chameleon was impersonating Spiderman, about how that episode took care to show us how he was duplicating Spiderman's skills.)

Which leads into Goliath and Elisa's encounter with the Commandos, with a good deal of action, Elisa outfighting the Commandos in an impressive fashion, and her finding out about Goliath turning to stone in the daytime - and they draw even closer as Goliath sees how she was ready to protect him. We see Goliath smile as Elisa suggests another meeting later that night, clearly looking forward to it. And their clasping hands (there used to be a picture of them at that moment in this comment room). A very lovely piece of development.

Elisa runs past some statues of the characters from "Alice in Wonderland" during this part. Recently, I read a novel called "The Gargoyle Hunters" by John Freeman Gill, which included these same statues in one scene. (The novel's about a father-and-son team in New York during the 1970's - I believe - who go around rescuing gargoyles from condemned buildings - "gargoyles" here being used in a loose sense; it's more statues in general - so that they won't be destroyed alongside the buildings. A reverse of the gargoyle hunters in the series, of course - though their efforts, or that of the father's, are portrayed as also fueled by an unhealthy obsession and lead to disaster.)

We see Hudson and the trio continuing to adjust to the modern world - Hudson becomes fond of the television (while Bronx growls at a dog food commercial; I remember wondering here in response to that moment whether Bronx would eat dog food, and others here replied that Bronx would probably eat anything), and the trio have a few more comical misadventures, particularly when Brooklyn tries hailing a taxi.

We complete the naming process for the clan. I might have mentioned this here before, but I've a thought about the particular choice of names. Hudson, the one least enthusiastic about the modern world (with one or two exceptions, such as the television), takes the name of a river, a natural feature. The trio, more interested in the trappings of 1990's New York, take their names from man-made locations, a couple of streets and a borough. As for Bronx, his name is obviously the closest major New York place-name to an animal bark or growl (and the fame of the Bronx Zoo doesn't hurt).

(We now know from "Voices from the Eyrie" that Bronx was actually supposed to show more enthusiasm for his name, instead of giving an indignant snort and walking off after Brooklyn applies it to him - and making Lexington's "I think he likes it" remark unintentionally comical.

Goliath and his "angel of the night" are reunited, filling Goliath with joy (and the rest of the clan as well when they see her) - though we know it won't last long, and we soon see signs enough that she's changed for the worse. (I've mentioned this as well before, but I suspect that alert viewers would have good reason to be sceptical about Xanatos's story. He claims that transporting her to the castle would free her from the spell - but all that it required to break the spell was to raise the castle above the clouds, with no mention that the gargoyles would have to be atop the castle at the time. So simply moving the castle would have been enough to do the job.)

We meet the actual Cyberbiotics security forces in this episode, and their uniforms are different from the commandos (yellow, for example, rather than blue and grey). A hint that the Commandos weren't actually working for Cyberbiotics.

QUOTES.

BROADWAY (munching on a bunch of pretzels): These are great. You should try some.

BROOKLYN: We would have, if you hadn't eaten the entire cartful.


ELISA: Lot to go through for a piece of lawn sculpture.


GOLIATH (to Demona): To soar with you again, it's like a dream.

DEMONA: We've dreamed for a thousand years, Goliath. It's time for our dreams to come true.


GOLIATH: The disc will be well-guarded.

DEMONA: If humans wish to throw their worthless lives guarding it, it's their concern.


GOLIATH: Wait! What are you doing?

DEMONA (dangling an unconscious Cyberbiotics guard over the hole in the floor of Fortress-One): What does it look like? I'm making sure they don't cause us more trouble later.

GOLAITH: No! To kill in the heat of battle is one thing, but not like this.

DEMONA: The centuries have made you weak, Goliath.


BROADWAY: This is easy. We'll have that disk and be back in time for supper.

{Brooklyn opens the doors, revealing a troop of Cyberbiotics security all pointing guns at them)

BROADWAY: A late supper.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Wed, Oct 30, 2024 8:05:36 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

CarumboZabumbo> That's a fair point. You're right that things looked pretty rosy between humans and gargoyles in 971. Of course, there was some hesitation and distance between them, there was none of the hostility we would see later. Still, this was the beginning of it all. Things were, of course, going to be at their best at this point.

I have absolutely no doubt that Weisman is capable and ready to tackle this given the opportunity. As for how and why things change, I suspect there are three main factors: Iago's plotting, the Archmage's betrayal, and Malcolm's death. We don't know all of the details, but we have enough info to suspect that these events probably contributed to the downfall of the alliance. Just my hunch.
Matt
posted @ Wed, Oct 30, 2024 8:53:40 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

Just remember to read this gem from wayback when you watched City of Stone:

https://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/faq.php?s=faq16#14

You could say it's Weisman's creepypasta before the term existed.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Oct 29, 2024 10:08:04 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

One other thought that recently occurred to me. I can't help suspecting that Xanatos figured out at once how Goliath had come across the word "de-tec-tive" (to echo the way he pronounced it) - Elisa's visit earlier would have made it easy for him to put two and two together. And from that, I wonder whether another objective for the Commando attack in Central Park - besides convincing Goliath that Cyberbiotics was after him and that he needed to strike at their bases to protect himself and his clan from them - was to neutralize a potential alternate human contact, to ensure that he had the monopoly on the gargoyles interacting with humans.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 29, 2024 9:16:24 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Rewatched "Awakening Part Three" today.

One of the major developments in this episode, of course, is Elisa and the gargoyles meeting. This time around, it struck me that, even though Goliath is still bitter towards humans, particularly after the Captain's betrayal (something which he even makes clear at the end of the previous episode when he tells Xanatos "We will never trust humans again"), and at this point, has good reason to see Elisa as a potentially dangerous intruder, as soon as she falls over the battlements, he's immediately alarmed and swoops down to her aid without a moment's hesitation. In their early conversations, he continues to display a grim tone, yet we see him warming towards her, the beginnings of friendship (and something more). Which, incidentally, will undoubtedly be a major reason for Demona to hate Elisa (though they haven't crossed paths yet). Elisa did a lot to heal Goliath of his anger towards the human race, scuttling whatever hopes she had of bringing him over to her viewpoint. Even without the jealousy, she'd be blaming Elisa for it. (Though the fact that Goliath should at once be concerned about Elisa's life, even before he properly gets to know her, suggests that she might not have succeeded anyway.)

We see them exchange a smile as they prepare to set off to explore the city, a hint of what's to come. (I'll confess that I cannot recall when I first began to suspect that Goliath and Elisa were developing feelings for each other. Embarrassing, I'll admit.)

One of the other major elements is the gargoyles continuing to learn about their new surroundings. This is one of my favorite parts, perhaps *the* favorite part, of the modern-day portion of "Awakening". As I mentioned in previous posts, the element that probably drew me most to "Gargoyles" at first was the medieval scenes - which, of course, are over a third of the way into Part Two of a five-part opener. But to make up for it, what we get after that is these medieval gargoyles seeking to understand the modern world, and I thought it was very well-handled. I'm including a few quotes below that particularly stand out to me.

And we get some variety among the clan. The trio are absolutely enthusiastic about exploring the city, if with such unfortunate results as Lexington getting too inquisitive about Vinnie's motorcycle. (Indeed, between that moment and the scene in the kitchen, the trio almost come across as the gargoyle equivalent of the Three Stooges - and not for the last time, either. I remember Matthew doing a review of this episode which captioned the moment where Lexington winds up with a cooking pot over his head as "Why, I oughta" - though as I said then, I still think that Brooklyn feels more Moe-ish than Lexington does.) Hudson is less enthusiastic, saying after he looks down at the city streets below that it's "too big, too bright, too loud" (though he makes an exception for the reclining chair that he discovers - and will soon do the same for the television set, even though his first encounter with it sends him and Bronx skedaddling from the room). And Goliath seems more focused on understanding the overall picture, in a more balanced manner. This exploration of the gargoyles' perspective of the present-day world will continue through other episodes; I'll have more to say then.

And we learn, via Goliath, about the three Cyberbiotics bases that Xanatos wants him and his clan to raid in order to "recover" the "stolen" discs - and Goliath's reluctance to carry out that raid will set up much of the action at the end of this episode and the early part of the next. (Goliath's reluctance is all the more understandable given what had happened the last time he'd embarked on such an expedition.) We also get a hint that Xanatos isn't on the level; I remember wondering a lot about that when I first saw "Awakening", and feeling suspicious of him. (It helped that Elisa was clearly going to have the role of the gargoyles' modern-day human friend, and giving the clan a second such friend, especially one with Xanatos's resources, would make things too easy for them.) Though I wasn't completely certain until Part Five.

We also see Goliath's first taste of crime-fighting (though he won't officially take it up for another ten episodes), not to mention our introduction to Brendan and Margot. And we end with the revelation that Goliath has good reason to be expecting danger in his new surroundings....

(A minor matter, but I noticed that the closed captions for this episode were written in British English - things like "Mr Xanatos", without the period after "Mr.", and "centre" rather than "center". Why that is is a mystery, though it does put me in mind of that "Mickey Mouse" weekly comic in England that I mentioned here last week.)

QUOTES.

GOLIATH: What were you doing in my castle?

ELISA: You - you can talk? Who- what are you?

GOLIATH; My kind have no names, but you humans call me Goliath.

ELISA: Your kind? You mean, there's more than one of you?

GOLIATH (with a grim sigh): Barely.


GOLIATH: And please, don't fall off the building this time.


GOLIATH (staring at Xanatos's monitor): Amazing. It's like a living tapestry.

XANATOS: Your naivete is refreshing, Goliath.


ELISA (to Hudson): What do I call you, anyway?

HUDSON: Must you humans name everything? Nothing's real to you until you've named it, given it limits.

ELISA: It's not like that. It's just that - well - things need names.

HUDSON: Does the sky need a name? Does the river?

ELISA: That river's called the Hudson.

HUDSON (with a sigh): Fine, lass. Then I shall be the Hudson as well.


ELISA (to Goliath): What do you want to see?

GOLIATH: The dangers that threaten me and my kind.

ELISA: Lighten up, will you? You're starting to get me down, and I'm a cop.


ELISA: What do you think of it?

GOLIATH: Such amazing changes men have made in the world while we slept. Stone streets, finer than those the Romans built. Towers of glass and iron.

ELISA: Yeah, I'm used to it. But I guess it's pretty impressive to an out-of-towner.

GOLIATH: I see no walls to guard your city. How do you protect it from invaders?

ELISA: Well, our biggest worries aren't from outside. They're from inside.

GOLIATH: That I am all too familiar with.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Tue, Oct 29, 2024 8:38:52 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Fifth.

I'd like to add something myself to the conversation from last week, specifically concerning the way the Wyvern Alliance is portrayed in Awakening compared to Dark Ages: the most interesting difference, IMO, is the fact that in the prequel there is barely any anti-Gargoyle hatred to be seen. I'm going by memory, but I think we only get:

1)Culen calling them monsters a couple of times - and hey, he's the villain and he's dead by the third issue, so it doesn't matter overmuch;
2)Kid Magus, Kid Mary and Nicolas being uncomfortable when they see Alesand together with the Quartet.

But aside from Culen no adult character has anything bad to say about the Gargoyles (even the Archmage is downright civil with Demona, which I wouldn't have expected in a million years) and the mini-series actually ends with a feelgood montage of the two races happily collaborating and then going to listen to Shari's tale in their leisure time.

I wasn't expecting that; I know, of course, that this alliance has to last 23 years, but I still expected someone to say something bad at some point: I thought maybe Kenneth was going to say that his brother is making a bold choice in picking such... peculiar creatures as his long-term allies; I thought maybe we'd see a few soldiers muttering that they don't need the help of demons to win this war while Demona and/or Othello are close-by; basically, I expected SOMETHING on that front.

The almost complete lack of anti-Gargoyle hatred means that Greg Weisman has set a hard task for himself: assuming new Dark Ages stories get published in the future - and I hope they will - Greg will have to show the slow but sure deterioration of the alliance, which will have to go from this near-idyllic start to a point where Demona can say to Goliath with at least a degree of honesty "You can ask me that? After how they treated us? They had to pay!" You know how George Lucas tried to show us Anakin Skywalker's journey from hero to villain and completely fumbled it? Greg will have to show us an entire (small) society's journey, from "And if nothing else, my friend, this night has proven our alliance sound!" to "Captain, we are most seriously displeased to allow beasts in the dining hall!"

Maybe he'll raise to the task; maybe he'll fumble it; maybe he won't ever get the chance to do it at all - I honestly don't know. I just wanted to note that that's what he'll have to do and that it will be hard.
CarumboZabumbo
"Ugh... looks like there's another fisticuffs coming. You know, this routine just kills me." - Mickey Mouse, "Lost & Found"
posted @ Tue, Oct 29, 2024 5:43:55 pm EDT from 79.32.55.25

Been some time since I've been part of count, guess that makes me Fourth!

There's a couple videos I want to bring up, for starters they recently rereleased the old promo starring Jonathon Frakes for Gargoyles found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPxM_qiKIec

Also, SupergeekMike did a video on using different villain groups in D&D with clips of The Spectacular Spider-Man for highlights, which I thought was pretty neat. You can find it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRiAk2DCS9c

Now for Todd's coverage of "Awakening Part Two" from last week. I think this was the episode that really cemented the drama of the series. There's the survivors' reaction to the sacking of the castle and the massacre of their clan. Magus' tragedy of impulse which is very Shakespearian in tone and would define his character for the rest of the series. Heck, even Kath Soucie filling as much venom as possible into the line, "Your a dead man, Hakon!" sets it apart from most animation which avoids any mention of death or dying.

But most importantly this was the episode that changed Goliath's character from a solemn, if heavily put upon leader into the melancholic figure for most of the series.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
Ain't nothing crazy 'bout me but my brain!
posted @ Mon, Oct 28, 2024 8:10:12 pm EDT from 135.180.3.149

Third.

So I can appreciate that Petros wasn't too thrilled with his son's way of life, but I'm still wondering why he takes issue with the body armor.

I'd think a kid taking protection seriously is commendable.:-D
Antiyonder
posted @ Mon, Oct 28, 2024 5:38:39 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

Last! I'm (as ever) a few days late checking in for the anniversary celebration, unfortunately, but better late than never.

I think I recently mentioned it, but this is probably the first show I really developed a devotion to. It's a thrill to see how many other people are still following it around all this time later, and if sixteen-year-old me, spending his paltry drug store earnings in the toy aisle buying the Kenner figures, had ever had any idea he'd not only still be following this show thirty years later but would be in such good company and watching the story still play out...well, he'd probably have been a lot less bashful about watching cartoons, for one thing.

Here's to many more tales told. Here's to many more years to come.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Oct 28, 2024 8:48:11 am EDT from 108.69.72.60

First.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Oct 28, 2024 8:35:25 am EDT from 68.99.93.213