MATT - [Even when, ironically, the gargoyles have seemingly had more contact with dragons than with Oberon's Children at this point (as far as we know).
Matt]

Not to mention that dragons (technically) were mentioned in the series even before the Third Race were, when Hudson mistook the commando team's helicopter for a dragon in "Awakening Part Two".
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 4, 2025 8:15:13 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

Bishansky> Well, if you're looking for a scientific definition, there are different variations of extinct. If Wyvern was one of the last dragons, that likely makes the species functionally or ecologically extinct meaning that while individuals exist, there are too few of them to be considered a viable species. Unless dragons reproduce in an unexpected way or there are a lot more of them out there than we realize, I'd say they are a functionally extinct race even in 971.

Todd> I think that is true from a production standpoint. The bigger question though is what the Manhattan Clan thinks in-universe considering that they have encountered a dragon before. As I said earlier, I suspect they look at it in one of three ways: they consider the dragon to fall under the gargoyle race (Stone-Flesh), they have reason to believe Wyvern is dead and he was the last of his kind (or close enough), or they don't think that Wyvern even represents a full species and that he is some sort of unique being. I also suspect there is a cultural tradition here. The Wyvern Clan has long passed down the story of there being Three Races. That sort of cultural knowledge can be hard to shake. Even when, ironically, the gargoyles have seemingly had more contact with dragons than with Oberon's Children at this point (as far as we know).
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Sat, Oct 4, 2025 10:00:06 am EDT from 69.229.197.48

From a storytelling point of view, they might have decided to leave out dragons in order to keep the focus on the introduction of Oberon's Children. Revealing in the same episode that both they and dragons existed might have made things too crowded. Saving the revelation that dragons (and living dragons, rather than animated statues as in "Pendragon") existed in the Gargoyles Universe for a story where Wyvern was the center of attention would work better.
Todd Jensen
posted @ Sat, Oct 4, 2025 9:46:14 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Dark Ages is a long age, Antiyonder has a point, Wyvern could pop up again and seemingly perish.

Do they count as extinct if Wyvern is the last dragon on Earth? I admit to being ignorant of this, but what is the technical meaning of "extinct"?
Greg Bishansky
posted @ Sat, Oct 4, 2025 9:18:41 am EDT from 73.219.67.168

Additionally, maybe sometime between the Dark Ages mini and Awakening, the clan sees or has a reason to believe Wyvern (Knowing or believing he is the last dragon) dies.
Antiyonder
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 3:25:31 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

All good. The idea was mine, but Phoen did all of the actual work. Anyway, the Wiki is a community effort, so no credit needed. That said, Phoen and Bishansky are doing most of the heavy lifting these days.

I'm just glad we have a nice way of seeing all the gargoyles' ages, especially relative to each other.
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 12:57:04 pm EDT from 204.184.178.1

Well first off my apologies to Matt for not acknowledging your contribution in the making of the Rookery Chart, I just looked into the page’s history and saw Phoenician was the latest person. Guess I wasn’t looking all the way. A proper Kudos to the both of you!
OnTheUp&Up2Semantics
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 12:23:41 pm EDT from 70.173.68.31

Rookery Chart: Thanks, but I gotta give Matt credit for the idea of making one for the wiki; I was just more familiar with the code to make the table. :--)

Wyvern: Not that he's an enemy to his fellow Stone-Flesh, but being (potentially) the last dragon serves as a fascinating antagonistic contrast to our heroes. While gargoyles will see healthier numbers by the 22nd Century, the fate of Wyvern's kind looks more bleak. But of course, that depends on how many dragons are still hoarding in 1997. I also like considering eusociality as a factor.
Phoenician
Gus: "I always forget you're there." Hooty: "I forget I'm here toooooo."
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 10:37:41 am EDT from 72.249.221.26

Yes, the "last of his kind" element would make a good reason for not including dragons as a Fourth Race. (Of course, there's also simplicity's sake; the series wasn't ready yet to reveal dragons.)
Todd Jensen
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 9:48:50 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

MATT> Probably, if Wyvern is the last of his kind, he'd hardly qualifies as a 'race' onto himself.

In a similar vein, the main qualification might not be just sapience but also eusociality? Our own Chip has suggested to me via PMs that dragons may be largely asocial ala tigers. If so they might not have enough sense of corporate identity to consider *themselves* a "race"?
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 9:11:02 am EDT from 88.87.179.191

Up> Yeah, it's nifty. Maybe one day we'll fill out all of the missing hatch years. Kinda doubt that though.

Algae> Perhaps, being "Stone-Flesh", they lumped Wyvern under "Gargoyles". Or perhaps they thought he was a single entity and not representative of an entire race.
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 8:54:28 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

A thought I had recently...

Way back in the The Mirror, we saw the Clan explain the concept of the Three Races to Elisa; Gargoyles, Humans and Oberon's Children. When Greg first mentioned the "Lost Race" here, I kinda assumed the Wyvern survivors simply weren't aware of them, either becuase the 'Lost Race' were long extinct or just never came into contact with gargoyles in that part of the world. But we now know that Goliath, Hudson and the Trio were all well aware that dragons exist and are sapient. So I'm wondering if there's any particular reason they apparently don't 'count' as a 'Race' under the Three Races schema?
Algae
'Nuff said
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 8:31:24 am EDT from 88.87.179.191

Just came from the Gargwiki to point out and give kudos to Phoenician/Phoen for that brand, spanking new table dating the Rookery Generations and the belonging Gargs in the Rookery page!

Also a little detail I noticed, unless the detail is proven contrary, the Trio and their mates/love interest were all born/hatched on a year ending in ‘58. And I think that’s cute.
OnTheUp&Up2Semantics
posted @ Fri, Oct 3, 2025 12:22:03 am EDT from 70.173.68.31

Antiyonder> Looked it up and Daran Norris and Dee Bradley Baker played most of the characters in that game. It isn't too surprising, the early 2000's saw a huge boom in voice acting in games and a lot of rising stars of that era showed up in numerous projects.
Though it is kind of amusing how often certain actors show up in certain franchises. Like Josh Keaton, the titular Spectacular Spider-Man, would play Electro in the PS4 Spider-Man game.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
You're Gonna Carry That Weight
posted @ Thu, Oct 2, 2025 12:58:25 am EDT from 184.23.35.150

1. Trying to remember if I saw a week started by him.

2. So a lost scene from Spider-Man 2 Enter Electro (2001) resurfaced:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5T5yq1AK6c

It wasn't on the Pre-9/11 release despite claims that well the removal was caused by 9/11.

Just a spoiler warning in case, but [SPOILER] Spider-Man stops Electro and Thor briefly shows up learning what happened. He destroys a device used by said villain. [/SPOILER]

A character in the scene sounds like he was voiced by Daran Norris, voice of J Jonah Jameson in Spectacular. Game as a reminder or note did have Dee Bradley Baker as Curtis Connors prior to voicing the character in said show.
Antiyonder
posted @ Tue, Sep 30, 2025 9:23:14 pm EDT from 68.119.3.1

I haven't been here as long as others, but I don't think I've seen Greg grab the first post either.
Well, first time for everything.
Matthew the Fedora Guy
You're Gonna Carry That Weight
posted @ Tue, Sep 30, 2025 1:39:06 am EDT from 184.23.35.150

I noted that the new "on this day" feature at GargWiki mentioned today being the birthday of Cervantes (the author of "Don Quixote"). I wonder which had the larger role in inspiring its inclusion: the "tilting at windmills" line in "Protection", or Greg Weisman including Cervantes in a list of major writers at "Ask Greg" (another was Faulkner, whose own birthday got mentioned on that feature a few days ago).

Also - I hope this isn't coming too late, but I'd like a bit of advice on ordering the "Fantastic Four/Gargoyles" crossover. The crossover with the Fantastic Four's name coming first is being published by Marvel rather than by Dynamite (though the crossover with "Gargoyles" coming first will be a Dynamite production), so I can't order it from Dynamite as I've done with the other comics since Things From Another World stopped delivering comics. Who would be best to order it from (I'll be ordering it from someone, since there aren't any comics shops - to the best of my knowledge - within walking distance of my condo, and I don't have a car)?
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Sep 29, 2025 8:23:38 pm EDT from 68.99.93.213

And more amazing news: in addition to the wide variety of new material that's just about to be released (both sides of the FF/Gargoyles crossover, the new Winter Special, and of course the next issue of "Demona") there is now news that the first softcover books are finally coming out of the Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dynamiteent/30th-anniversary-disney-gargoyles-collections-are-here/posts/4495658

'Scuse me while I go get some Gorilla Glue for my bookcase.
morrand - [morrand276 at gmail dot com]
posted @ Mon, Sep 29, 2025 5:23:32 pm EDT from 108.69.72.60

Happy Michaelmas, everyone!
Todd Jensen
posted @ Mon, Sep 29, 2025 8:35:36 am EDT from 68.99.93.213

Second!

I don't think Greg has ever grabbed first before!
Matt
"My daughter?! How dare you mock me! I have no daughter." - Demona, 1996
posted @ Mon, Sep 29, 2025 8:33:05 am EDT from 204.184.178.1

FIRST

Thanks everyone for the birthday wishes. Much appreciated!
Greg Weisman
posted @ Mon, Sep 29, 2025 12:43:52 am EDT from 70.227.91.143