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Do the other clones resent Brentwood for going with Thailog?
We'll have to ask them.
Questions about issue #6
1. In this issue, I noticed that Shari, #9, had black around her eyes. I scanned through the previous issues and noticed she didn't have this before. Was this an artistic error or is it part of her look?
2. On the next to last page, I noticed that Thailog turned to stone, but his clothing did not. Was this deliberate or an artistic error?
1. Neither. It's artistic interpretation.
2. Deliberate. A choice I made at the script stage.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
October 13th...
1996
When Demona refuses to allow Thailog to kill Angela, he reveals an additional clone: Delilah, created from a combination of Demona and Elisa's DNA. Demona frees Talon, Goliath and the clan. They manage to recapture Fang and take down the clones. But while fighting each other, Demona and Thailog seemingly perish in a fire. Talon offers to take the other clones back to the Labyrinth where he promises to teach them to think for themselves.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
October 12th...
1995
Xanatos acquires the Cauldron of Life and prepares to test it by ordering the construction of a pair of Macbeth robots and a statue of Hudson. He also begins looking for a sword that will match Hudson's to be used with the statue.
1996
Relieving Talon, Goliath takes his shift guarding the Labyrinth prisoners. Thailog busts Demona and Fang out. Talon and Goliath pursue them to Coney Island. Goliath departs and quickly returns with Angela, the Trio and Hudson. All are captured by Fang, Demona, Thailog and his clones: Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu and Burbank (made from the DNA of Broadway, Lexington, Brooklyn and Hudson, respectively).
I thought clones were considered like... I don't know a sibling or something near that? Why is Thailog called Golaith's son, wouldn't he be seen as his brother instead?
From Goliath's point of view, Thailog was created from him. A sibling to Goliath is someone who hatches at more or less the same time. A child comes after making use of the parents DNA, etc. Thailog is thus a son.
I know this may sound dumb but, just please answer it to humor me. Who thought of the name for Thailog. Was his name made up, cause I've never even heard of it.
I came up with it. It's "Goliath" said backwards. I was at an audio mix session for the movie version of the "Awakening" pilot and the mixers were having trouble with one section and kept having to rewind the tape to hear it again. Everytime they went backwards I heard Elisa shout out "Thailog!" (Haven't I told this story like a hundred times?)
1. Since Mr. Duval isn't the head of the Illuminati as previously thought then who is the true number one? Is he a previously established character?
2. Given that the Illuminati has a membership of 666, I guess they aren't ubiquitous as previously thought, so how much control do they really have over world affairs?
3. When was Thailog recruited by them?
1. I'll tell you right here and right now in this forum. Where else would I reveal it after all? The answer is, that is the identity of #1 is >urk< >ugh< did you have to use the slow-acting poisonous blow-darts, you bastard?! You know how painful they are!!!
2. How much do you want them to have?
3. Prior to issue #5.
1.Why did Thailog set the ransom demand in Double Jeopardy for $10,000,000? I mean why not more or why not less.
You pick a number that's the highest possible number you think you can get without causing the ransom-payer to balk -- for any reason. I'm sure Thailog did his research.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
August 15th...
1996
Sevarius completes his involvement with Thailog's project and is paid off. Thailog begins programming his new clones. Meanwhile, Angela and Demona are still debating the latter's behavior. Claw arrives to take over guarding the prisoners for the day shift. Angela elects to sleep as stone in front of her mother's cell.
Why didn't Thailog just make a clone of Demona? He's not attracted to Elisa, you made it clear Goliath and Elisa was more spiritual. Was he just looking to piss Demona off?
Even assuming that Goliath is not physically attracted to Elisa -- which is NOT something I've "made clear" as I disagree with that premise -- what does that have to do with Thailog?
But, yeah, pissing Demona off was a bonus.
You said Thailog would have insisted on Delilah laying an egg, does he want his own offspring?
Did I say that? Where? When?
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
August 8th...
1995
Xanatos' programming of Thailog is in full swing.
How much did Fox know about the thailog project plotted by Xanatos?
As much as she thought to inquire about, I'd guess.
Hi Greg
I was just wondering why Thailog didn't clone Angela, i know Demona didn't release the bug when she watching her but even still if he could get Eliza's dna without her knowing he could do the same for Angela. If he was expecting Demona to betray him anyway even with Delilah he was at a one "man" disadvantage from a tactical point of view it just would have made more sense for Thailog to clone Angela too.
When would he have gotten Angela's DNA?
You can pinpoint EXACTLY when he got Elisa's, BTW, if you watch the episode carefully.
SPOILERS
Of course, NOW he has everyone's DNA, everyone in the Manhattan Clan, that is.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
July 16th...
1996
Lex is bitten by a robotic mosquito that samples his DNA and then returns to Nightstone Unlimited, where Sevarius and Thailog are preparing clones of all the gargoyles.
Hey Greg,
Just got done reading Gargoyles #4...it was a great balance between drama and all out action.
I liked the scenes with Thailog the best... he's got to be my favorite "villain" in the series, as he thinks he's doing the right thing, but he's just got it all wrong.
It also seems like the Illuminati plot is thickening... this time Xanatos said "thirty-six" and the waiter said "two", not "thirty-two"... I'm looking forward to seeing what this all means.
Also, I was wondering why the comic now has a floppier paper cover and still costs the same. The first three had solid stock covers which I assumed is why it was 3.50 instead of the normal 2.99 price that most comics are..
Keep up the great work, it's great to see the Gargs storyline moving forward.
I don't know that Thailog thinks he's doing the RIGHT thing. I think he thinks he's doing the THAILOG thing. In which case, he pretty much has it all RIGHT.
As for the price, the answer's mostly fairly obvious. Smaller print runs mean costs are spread over fewer issues. Two ways to deal with cost are to raise price or lower costs. SLG apparently chose to do both. For SLG, Gargoyles has two unusual-for-them HIGH costs. One is the color interiors (most of SLG's books are black and white) and the other -- and most significant cost -- is the very expensive Disney license. Most SLG books are not licensed. The double whammy of those two factors makes Gargoyles one of SLG's three MOST expensive books to produce. When sales were over 10K, they could afford the paper quality and lower price. When sales fall below 7K, not so much.
Where was Thailog during present-day events of City of Stone?
I'm not saying.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
May 13th...
1995
Thailog has reached full gargoyle adolescence. A discoloration of skin and hair is the only side effect of the accelerated growth.
1996
Attracted by multiple reports of gargoyle sightings in Manhattan, the Canmore siblings begin making inquiries and creating the false identities they will need to find Demona there and destroy her.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
May 7th...
1996
Demona and Thailog return to Manhattan and hire Dr. Sevarius away from Gen-U-Tech. Sevarius reveals that the female gargoyle that Demona saw in Paris is the biological child of her and Goliath.
Just a little something I've been thinking about. One of the things I always liked about "Gargoyles" was the status quo could always be changed. The cast was rich enough that the perspectives would alone would be fascinating. Case in point, the revelation of gargoyles to the world.
Obviously, we know how Goliath feels about this, and he dreams of one day bringing about a new golden age.
We haven't seen Demona react to, or comment on the revelation, but her thoughts and plans are only too guess. Kill them before they kill us.
But, Thailog on the other hand, he's much harder to predict. He has never shown an interest in "race relations", nor demonstrated any animosity towards humans. But, at the same time, he is a gargoyle. He has to have an opinion on this. The Quarrymen are as much a threat to him as they are to Goliath and his clan.
As I said, he's hard to predict. I don't see him trying to reach out and build bridges, like Goliath. Nor do I see him working towards their destruction, like Demona. For one, he's not that wasteful, and he clearly likes the idea of holding economic power, or else why would he have helped form Nightstone Unlimited?
Of course, it all depends on what Thailog's goals are. So far, everything we've seen him do seem like means to an end. Adding to his wealth, by robbing Xanatos, and eliminating Demona and Macbeth. Creating flunkies and his own concubine when creating Delilah and the clones, and forming Nightstone, which he lost to Demona. But, these don't feel like overall goals, more like stepping stones. Which makes me think, what does he want? For that matter, does he even know what he wants beyond proving himself to be superior to Goliath and Xanatos?
I'm sure you have something in mind, and hopefully future issues of the comic will shed some light on this. Overall, I think Thailog is a fascinating character, a great villain. And I eagerly anticipate seeing more of him in issues 4, 5 and beyond.
Thailog's currently slated to appear in issues #3-9... beyond that I'm not talking. But, yes, I find the question fascinating.
Hello Greg,
What im going to asked you is not comic related. Im from argentina and i cant find any website or something that could bring an issue here. But well i was complaining about the same thing a year ago abouth the dvd and i finally manage to get it :D Origynal and all!! :D.
But well, on with my questions:
I was reading the archives and i read something like "Thailog was the most evil of the three.." comparing him with Demona and Macbeth. That got me thinking...
How is that someone can be more evil than a creature who is planing to destroy the human race (wich has some sense. Humans themselves have destroy entire species of animals considering them as dangerous, but thats not the point on these post). If we consider Evil as the capacity of someone to do, willingly and consciously, damage to others, Thailog should hardly be consider more evil than Demona, since both of them are as equal to destroy another sentient been.
But if we consider Evil someone who actually enjoys causing damage and suffering to others, that may change things a bit and thats what brought those questions up.
1- Does Demona enjoy killing humans?
2- Does she see the killing only as something that has to be done?
3- Is it something born only from rage and grief, or does she has a sadic pleasure on killing those who made her life miserable?
4- Can we consider Demona as someoe cruel and that finds actual pleasure on the suffering of others?
5- What would Thailog do that Demona wouldnt even think of? Something that would make him more evil than she is.
Well thanks again for any respons you give me. And i WONT loose my hopes of getting the comic :D (someway somehow).
I think your paraphrase of my quotation (at least out of context) is problematic and thus not quite accurate, but...
1. She thinks she does.
2. Yes.
3. All of the above.
4. On occasion.
5. I can't think of a hypothetical example.
You might ask a fellow fan to send you the comics. You can paypal them, perhaps.
I was watching "Double Jeopardy" last night and it reminded me about a question I've wanted to ask for a while. After Thailog puts Elisa, Xanatos, Sevarius, & Goliath in the oil tank, he tells Goliath that he had considered sharing the money with him but decided not to because Goliath had "disappointed him". What exactly disappointed him? I've been looking though the archives and the closest I've come to finding an answer is that Thailog didn't like it when Goliath called him an abomination. I'm sure that Thailog didn't like being called that, but that couldn't have been the main reason for not letting Goliath in on his scheme. There's got to be more to it. I've also wondered if it had to do with Goliath wanting to protect humans, because Thailog does mention something about not wanting to play "guardian angel" to the city. But then I figure that Thailog would've already known this about Goliath in the first place. He was smart enough to set everything up in "Double Jeopardy", wouldn't he be smart enough to do some research on Goliath to find out that protecting people was what he did? And if this is the case, why did Thailog even decide to include Goliath in the money part in the first place? The way I heard it was that he didn't decide until that night that he didn't want to share the money. So, why did he change his mind about Goliath?
Thank you for your time and your answer.
-Charisma82
I'd say Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog, "Abomination" and all was plenty of reason.
But you also can't take everything Thailog says at face value.
Who came up with the idea for the Paris scheme against Macbeth? Thailog or Demona?
Thailog.
Since Thailog is the clone of Xanatos, which would also imply that he has some human DNA, then does that mean that he doesn't turn into stone like Goliath since Xanatos's DNA would probably prevent that?
Thailog is NOT the clone of Xanatos, he's the clone of Goliath. Xanatos EDUCATED him to Xanatos' way of looking at the world. But there is no human biological component in Thailog.
It's me! (Giggles, chuckles and many guffaws.)
How are you? I have some questions about Thailog and....yah...
1.(WHY WONT THE STUPID TAB BUTTON WORK!!!) Uh....anyway, How dose Thailog view Alexander? Dose he consider him a 'brother'?
2. How dose Thailog view his own creation? I'm asking this because of the Justice Leauge clone Galatea. She thought hse had to prove her 'own existance' to everyone by destroying super girl. Dose Thailog feel the same way about Goliath and Xanatose?
Thanks
1. It will be interesting to see.
2. I think Thailog may be over the notion (assuming he ever really subscribed to it and wasn't just play-acting) that he needs to destroy Goliath, Xanatos and Sevarius. We've already seen him working with Anton. And I think, like David, he'd view killing Goliath and David as too wasteful.
<<Well, let's start with the "buffet"/game-playing writing style. I think it's awful. >>
I agree.
<<Having said that, I have this friend, a garg fan who's now a pretty darn successful writer. When I read her first book, I felt that the first half of it was written in that way. As if rolls of the dice determined who each character was, what he or she could do and what happenned to them.
When I asked her about it, she confessed (if that's the word) that I was dead on. The first half of the book was her almost literally setting to prose a game of D&D that she had played.
I don't recommend doing that, but look at the result. The second half of the novel, inspired as it was by the first half, was wonderful. And she's moved forward with these characters into other books as well. >>
When I indicated that I thought this game-players writing style could be exploited profitably, I wasn't really thinking of more mature, conventional writing emerging from it. Although, that obviouly works too. I was thinking, if you were writing something, for instance, where there was a consistent theme of game-playing, then maybe you could exploit it as a device. I'm thinking of game-playing themes more along the lines of George Perec than dungeons and dragons. So maybe there would be subtle games embedded in the text. But at the same time, maybe there could be a section of the book, or a certain character, which you treat in the game-players writing style. Sort of in the way you could mimic the writing style of the Victorians. I have given no serious thought to what properties make game-player writing read the way it does. But it _is_ recognizable. You've identified it, yourself.
<<But your second question is more serious. Does this process in fact impair the reader/audience. Forget that some of these guys will never be great writers, will this make them bad readers?
I don't know. But my guess is that it's the same (or similar) percentage of people who would have been bad readers in the first place. The good ones will transcend. The others won't. That's my hypothesis.>>
I suppose so. It's just that I keep on detecting subtle trends in the way people in our culture think about things. And I worry this game-players thing will worsen. It's like that business of an incomplete idea of "sentience" invading popular culture. It seems ridiculous to speculate that the idea migrated into the culture from star trek, but if you observe carefully, you can see it. I think people in our culture, are less and less informed by critical thinking today.
Ten years ago, for instance, I don't think I saw game-player writing anywhere. Now, even before this conversation I had, in which we began to put a name to this thing, it seems pervasive. I think the novelty has become the institution. Consider that twenty years ago, aspiring authors could not have seen this in literature. Today, I have waking nightmares that the kid who would have been the next Paul Auster is going to become intellectually deranged when he picks up a dungeons/dragons book for the first time and gets the idea that "this must be how people write."
I'm probably thinking of something along the lines of memes here. Ideas enter the culture and become dominant over time. Usually, stupid ideas. They begin to define the way that people think about things and even the way they value things. It doesn't just erode our intellects. It can erode sensible ethics. Consider this...
I saw an episode of star trek recently, and it really alarmed me. The premise was that the characters travel to a planet where the human population reproduces exclusively by cloning. For some ridiculous reason they could no longer continue cloning themselves, so they ask the characters to donate genetic material so their culture can survive. The characters hostility to the idea is so irrational that I wouldn't know how to describe it. And when the clone people sneak away some of their genetic material to make clones of them anyway, a demonstration of some of the most demented rationalization of science fiction occurs.
The characters go to the lab where their clones have already developed into full grown reproductions of themselves, and use their death rays to obliterate them. And I should be clear that these were not blastocysts in test tubes. These were obviously fully grown and autonomous people. And this is all treated by the authors as though it were the most natural thing in the world. It's simply understood that being cloned "diminishes you" as a human being, and that their absurd indignation was somehow righteous. Precisely how this diminishes a person is never elaborated upon, and I'm sure that the authors never even thought about it. They assume, with remarkable vacuousness, that the cloned people in the lab do not possess any type of intrinsic worth. I know that star trek authors have never picked up a science text, but the poverty of ethical thinking here, compelled me to think they had never read a book or had a thought about anything.
Of course, it's just a silly TV show. Right?
And yet, it's conspicuous that the range public debate about bioethics is defined by these concepts. I'm not talking about the range of debate in the literature of science or philosophy. That remains very isolated from the public forums where most people in our culture consider these issues. In popular magazines and network news journalism, the dominant logic is that a person is rendered somehow, "lesser" by having been cloned. The idea has been in ascendancy for a decade despite the depth of it's ignorance. The people who define and limit public discourse about it have certainly never thought about it critically. Their positions frequently contradict themselves and more frequenly rely on popular myths and emotional appeals to people's superstitions.
And it gets worse. Something far more sinister has emerged from popular, misinformed dialogue about cloning. In popular disputes about it (I heard the notion resurface on CNN about a month ago) the question of "what kind of rights would a clone have" is routinely brandished about as though it were an intelligent thought. To practicing ethicists and scientists, this notion probably would not have even entered the dialogue if it had not been thrust upon them by popular culture. That the question is being asked at all assumes, uncritically, that there is something meaningfully distinguishable about a cloned person which would compel us to assign a different worth to them. A worth, lesser than a person who came into the world by conventional means.
I have a suspicion, that the people most vocally shrieking about the moral dilemmas of cloning, are actually theologically threatened by it. I have no evidence of this. But a few inferences they have made, have got me thinking that their theological picture of "personhood" follows a very rigid prescription, and their indignation may originate with some inept idea that a clone would not have a soul.
"Soul" becomes a good parallel to "sentient life." One is from religion and one is from science fiction, but both of them are shortcuts people use instead of actually thinking about the internal properties that imbue something with intrinsic moral worth.
I hope it's apparent why I think this is important. Magical thinking can be dangerous. The worth of a being can't reasonably be described in these terms. If the distinction between ruling class and underclass or the difference between pets and meat is being determined by distinguishing one as sentient or soul-containing, then we have not really distinguished anything. We're just making things up. We might as well assign moral worth based upon who has stars on their bellies.
I don't remember what Goliath's reaction to Thailog was precisely. I remember that he was alarmed by the prospect of there being another version of himself. How would you describe his feelings about the issue. I suspect since he would have no concept of cloning technology, his perception of it would be unique.
Goliath's initial reaction was horror and anger. Not at the clone per se, but at Xanatos for having stolen something -- Goliath's uniqueness as an individual, at least. I think that's a legitimate fear (not a rational, ethical response). And certainly, there's no ethical justification for Xanatos' actions.
But as Elisa shortly points out, it's too late to simply be pissed at Xanatos. The clone, Thailog, exists. He's alive. As much a Gargoyle as Goliath is. In a very real way, he is Goliath's son. Goliath quickly agrees. (Of course, by this time, he's already pissed off Thailog -- a victim of nurture as opposed to nature -- and there will be no reconciliation.)
Look, let's take the Star Trek episode you described. I've seen it, though it's been years, so I'm going to have to rely on your version of it.
I think it's completely legitimate to have reservations about loaning your genetic material so that they can make clones of you. It's legitimate to be generous too, but you must acknowledge that it must be a personal decision.
A friend once hinted that she'd like me to donate sperm so that she could have a baby. I truly believe that this person would make a great parent, but it's just not in me to help in this way. Mostly because I know how I feel about my own kids. And the knowledge that there was another child of mine out there and not part of my life would drive me nuts.
So I buy into Riker, et al, rejecting the request from the Clone-Society. It MUST be a personal choice. Also, medically -- by the rules they set up/made up -- the point was made that cloning would always be a stopgap solution. So there's a certain pointlessness to participating. But whatever. You MUST have the right to say no. Goliath should be able to say no to Xanatos.... "Thanks, David, but I don't really want a clone of me out there, particularly since I don't trust your parenting skills."
Now of course, what I believe your really objecting to is Riker and company killing living viable beings... and of course Elisa, Goliath and I would totally agree with you. If the clones are completed, the clones are completed. That's that. They're alive. TOO LATE!!!!
Now, there's another Riker episode where he discovers that he has a clone -- in fact it becomes unclear which is the clone and which is the real Riker (i.e. the guy we've known all these years, or the guy that's been trapped on a distant planet for years). Both wind up surviving, which I thought was novel. The "clone" later became somewhat Xanatosian, which I also appreciated.
But to take your argument to something more general than cloning... I mean you need to keep in mind that when cloning is used in SF (or at least good SF) it's just a metaphor. Clones are regarded as second class citizens because the history of humanity is rife with second class citizens based on criteria equally as dopey.
Now, agreed some SF doesn't get it.
And, agreed, now that actual cloning is becoming closer to actual reality, people may be adopting the jargon of SF because -- what else do they have?
But lazy thinkers have ALWAYS existed. On bad days I certainly think the world is going to hell in a handbasket, but if I'm being more honest, I can't exactly look back on the world and go : "HEY, NO PROGRESS!" There's been a lot of progress. We'll never wipe out ethics-free humans. Ethically, well, we're just not allowed to.
The memes you discuss may be a problem. But they're just replacing old memes that are even more devastating because they're WAY TOO REAL.
It's another old Sci-Fi notion... In a very real way, wouldn't it be great if the ALIENS did attack. Because then FINALLY, humanity would realize how little differentiates black from white, male from female, gay from straight, etc., ad nauseum. Of course, that would immediately present us with the new racial challenge of learning to "just get along" with the aliens. But wouldn't it be nice for just a moment to get past the pettiness that we own ourselves?
Or something like that.
Please answer me something thats been going on between me and a friend... what is Thailog's colouring? I'm certain its blue because ive got all the episodes but so does my friend and she says he's purple. Pleaseeeee settle this matter?!
I'm color blind and blue/purple is my biggest issue. But there are tons of fans who could answer this question for you.
SANCTUARY
Ding Dong the queue is dead, well wounded anyway. I Know this is late but the asking function was closed down before I could post it and I've been awful busy lately. A well here it is.
I was interested to learn you had planned to use a Quasimodo character originally since Quasi is kind of a Gargoyle himself. I wonder if Quasi existed in the Gargoyle Universe, hey if you can have J.V.
I also was kind of disappointed you didn't give Demona's alter ego an angel themed name like Angelique like you planned in your memo. Would've made a great parallel with Angela and created another of those cool name parallels like Peter Maza and Petros Xanatos or Alexander Xanatos and Alexander
Speaking of thailog I have something to tell you that I think you'll like. When these episodes were first being aired on Disney Channel UK they seriously aired them out of order, skipping over most of the episodes between "City of Stone" and "Avolon" as well as a few pre-CoS episodes. They actually aired half the world tour before "Avolon" and even that before "Eye of The Beholder"! Luckily they sorted it out for the reruns but the point is that when I first saw "Sanctuary" I had not yet seen "Double Jeopardy" and it didn't hurt my enjoyment of this episode one bit. Sure there was some initial confusion over this Goliath look-alike (I thought at first that Thailog's "no way to treat a lady" line was Goliath's) but once the word clone popped up I immediately went "now I get it". More reason to believe that new viewers can get into "Gargoyles". In fact I think the World Tour was good at bring new viewers in, the episodes were much more stand alone
That is good news. Thanks for telling me that.
We made a conscious decision not to use Angelique. Dominique just seemed more like the kind of name Demona would choose for herself.
Greg,
What episodes was Faloog in? (Not sure if I spelled that correctly, Goliath's clone). He was really cool, but I was only able to catch the first time he appeared.
Thailog was introduced in "Double Jeopardy". He next appeared in "Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning". "Thailog Shock Troops" appeared in "Future Tense", but they were just Puck's creations, used to fool Goliath. Thailog also appeared in some episode of Goliath Chronicles, but I can't remember the name.
Completely out of left feild...
I've heard you worked on Darkwing Duck, and you've said many times that Thailog's coloring was in part based on Negaduck's costume. Now, I'm likely the only gargfan who has ever dressed up as Darkwing Duck for Halloween(in the eighth grade, btw, and I'm a girl), so I hope a few off topic (well, off gargoyle) questions won't bug you too much.
What did you do while working on Darkwing? Do you have any standout memories from that show? Or any favorite characters? I'm guessing you wrote-- which episodes did you work on?
Thanks for reading! I wish I were going to the Gathering this year, but I'm using my savings to start my own business instead-- that way I'll be able to make it to G2K3 in New York without emptying my penny jar. The L.A. con ROCKED, and I regret missing out this year. My siblings, however, are going, and have been instructed to videotape everything for me. (So if anyone sees Blondewookiee or The Souldier without a camera, remind them I'm pining away at home!)
And in the spirit of guessing when you'll read this... Happy New Year! (Am I right?)
Nope. Again, closer to Valentine's day -- plus a year.
Hope to see you at the Montreal Gathering this summer ('04).
I helped Tad Stones develop Darkwing Duck, helped him staff up his writing staff and gave story notes on episodes. I was an executive at that time. I didn't write any episodes.
But did I really say that Thailog was based on Negaduck's coloring? Cuz I don't recall saying that or that being the case. Maybe someone else made the connection?
Thailog's coloring was actually more inspired by the Fantastic Four's costume change as perpetrated by John Byrne in the Eighties.
Who is the Gargoyles Arch Nemisis?
There isn't just one: Xanatos, Demona and Thailog all come immediately to mind. But I never tried to limit the possibilities.
In the notes that you recently printed for "Double Jeopardy", you mentioned in the outline, just after Thailog emerges from his box for the first time in front of Sevarius and his mercenaries, that this is the last time in the series that we would be seeing that particular band of mercenaries. Was there something ominous intended about this statement - as in, hinting at just what happened to them after Thailog got out?
I don't think I could be any less subtle, frankly. Use your imagination.
DOUBLE JEOPARDY
The (currently) new ramble! Here's my own (which I also posted in the Comment Room).
After watching the "Previously..." recap and hearing Sevarius' mention about cloning, and then seeing the title, I pretty much figured out what the episode was going to be about. Consequently, I kind of knew that the gargoyle on the battlements at Xanatos' place wasn't really Goliath. Still, I was not quite prepared for Thailog, but we'll get to him later on.
The prologue is well written, and does fit in well with the established continuity...except for the date it's given in the computer files. Even allowing that Xanatos did not get released from prison until after Oct. 31, when did Elisa get shot, and how long before she was able to walk on crutches? Still, I'm willing to let it slide. Besides, it was cool how Goliath smashed the robot's head (you can see the red eye-bulb pop out).
The coloring error you saw, Greg, concerning Thailog's arm in the attack on Lex and Broadway, seems to have been corrected in later airings (at least it's black on my tape).
That was one thing that surprised me--seeing the flash in Elisa's windshield NOT being a copy of Goliath, but something with black skin, red eyes, and a white something (hair of course, but I only saw a glimpse).
I was curious as to what Sevarius was doing with the mercenaries, and why he seemed to be stealing from his employer. I think I may have decided to wait until the end to draw any conclusions.
When Owen mentioned the Emir, I remembered THE EDGE. I didn't expect the dude to actually show up in the series (I was still a bit naive (sp?)), and instead thought more along the lines that this would be a running gag in the series. A sort of background business thing that Xanatos would always be dealing with.
It is interesting to see Xanatos in a semi-vengeful attitude. It's just something you're not used to seeing from this guy. I liked hearing the list of his "enemies" for some strange reason. Just nice to know that Xanatos isn't so untouchable.
And Owen even gets to make a couple of digs at Xanatos--not just the one at the end, but the "plan you've neglected to mention" and cryptically referring to Xanatos Enterprises as "a certain large consortium" (sp?).
Even though Goliath laughed maniacally well-enough in ENTER MACBETH, I still got a kick out of Hudson's line. A little nod to the fact that Goliath has a tendency to be...stoic, perhaps.
And then we get another glimpse at Thailog. And he actually managed to look scarier than Goliath, IMHO. Not a bad trick. I hadn't thought until reading the memo that something...unpleasant may have happend to the mercenaries here. This new thought rather intrigues me (in a morbid sort of way).
The Gen-U-Tech traking bracelet makes a reappearance. Gotta love continuity.
Seeing the electronic log of Thailog's creation proved to be quite fascinating for me. Mostly because of the mention of "accelerating (sp?) the normally slow gargoyle growth process." I liked the added explanation here and the nod towards the coloring change. On the whole, it made everything easier to except, and allowed me to sit back and have fun watching the episode develop.
Like many folks, I loved the whole Xanatos-Sevarius confrontation. Neither is really aware of what the other is thinking, but believes they are. And when Sevarius started to cut loose (and then undercut it with the whispered question of his quality of performance) I laughed out loud. That and the look on Xanatos' face are still amusing (vengeful, confused...you see a lot of sides to Xanatos that you normally don't in this episode).
When Goliath finally meets Thailog...I did not expect Thailog to turn out quite the villain he was, despite knowing that he learned everything from Xanatos. Consequently, I was not expecting him to jump Goliath like that. But this made him a lot of fun. And I love the way Thailog sort of hisses out the "s" at the end of "All the old blocks."
When Thailog is talking to Xanatos and Sevarius in the hold of the oil rig, there is a loop of repeated animation that is very noticeable. The odd thing is, the lips actually remain more-or-less in sync with the dialogue.
I love Thailog's lines here. "And waste my life playing 'guardian angel' night after night to a decrepit city, infested with inferior humans?" Just his choice of words says a lot about this guy's outlook on the world. And to this day I keep playing his other line to Goliath in my head from time to time: "I considered caring about you. It took some effort, but I arranged for you to join this party because I planned to share the money with you. But our little...'family reunion' disappointed me, *father*! So I've decided to *hate* you, too." I just love how that throws some of the blame for what happens on Goliath. Man, with this and OUTFOXED, Goliath's been faced with a lot of his shortcomings.
I had no problem with Elisa slipping out of the manacles. I mean, those things weren't like police cuffs that could close in diameter to conform to a prisoner's wrists. Besides, Xanatos' comment was rather fun.
Actually, there were a lot of fun lines in this sequence, and the episode as a whole (of course, they've already been pointed out, so...).
I get a strange kick out of the fact that it's Sevarius who picks up on the idea that could save them all. It's always fun when the villains and heroes wind up on the same side for some reason.
Something I find very interesting whenever I watch this episode: when Elisa and Xanatos think Goliath might be dead, Xanatos actually moves to comfort Elisa! It's just endlessly fascinating to me that in a potential moment of loss, the proferred shoulder to cry on comes from the antagonist. That's one great thing about this series, character was never subverted for the sake of conforming to traditional "roles."
I actually did think that Thailog had died in the fire. I of course would have regretted it--he was a great character, and Keith David's mannerisms were so distinct from Goliath's that I half-wondered if maybe Thailog was voiced by someone else (a thought I had also had concerning Jim Cummings' differnt sound as Darkwing and Negaduck). However, it wasn't until the "reverse-Xanatos tag" that Thailog took an even greater leap upward in my estimation. Learning that Thailog probably survived and was (in Owen's words) "still out there, has the money, is as powerful as Goliath...and smarter than [Xanatos]." That was one of those "shock" moments, and immediately followed up by "Owen, I think I've created a monster." It felt to me like not only had a new villain been unleashed upon the world, but one greater than any that had come before. I actually like seeing the image of Thailog laughing (although recently, I've wondered what the effect would be if his transparent-face suffused the whole screen).
Rambling on Thailog for a moment--it was great how he moved beyond the stereotypical "evil twin" bit. Although his contrast with Goliath is a very compelling aspect of him, he is not confined to that one dimension. He has the tics that are very much his own, and he manages to assert his independence even more when he takes to wearing the armor.
I know, Greg, that you feel every villain should seem, in "that particular encounter" the hero's unltimate enemy. Still, I can't help but feel that the true rank of "archfiend" seems made for the likes of Thailog.
This is another one of those episodes I really enjoy!
Thanks.
My plans for Season Three would have had Thailog really emerge as the Gargoyles primary antagonist. I really wanted to give him a chance to come into his own. Still do.
As you know, Keith, of course, DID perform both roles. In fact his talent was one of the main inspirations for doing Thailog in the first place.
TIMELINE...
You had questions. Maybe this will clear some of them up. Then again, maybe not.
Friday, October 28th, 1994
Xanatos may anticipate being released by October 31st, the date of his coming pre-trial appearance. [NOTE: The calendar in Xanatos' cell matches neither 1994 nor 1995. It may not even be his.]
Monday, October 31st, 1994
In part, ironically, because both Xanatos and Elisa wish to conceal the gargoyles' existence, Xanatos' lawyers and the D.A.'s office agree to a plea bargain. He pleads guilty to the sole count of receiving stolen property. He is sentenced to six months, including time served, with every possibility that the sentence will be reduced in three months for good behavior.
Tuesday, November 15th, 1994
Owen acquires a DNA sample from Goliath.
Friday, November 18th, 1994
Elisa is shot.
Tuesday, January 3rd, 1995
Elisa is on crutches when Macbeth first attacks castle.
Wednesday, January 4th, 1995
Xanatos is released from prison. Goes home to the castle first. And then stops by Gen-U-Tech.
Hope that helps.
Yay! A new episode ramble! Thanks, Greg!
Here are some of my own thoughts about "Double Jeopardy".
The opening one is a rather odd little memory. In the summer of 1995, I spotted an article on "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine (whose name I can no longer remember) discussing what would be done in Season Two; among other things, it included a mention that Goliath's daughter would be introduced into the series. I was quite curious about that, and wondered what she'd be like and how it would be done. And then, when "Double Jeopardy" first aired, and Thailog was treated as Goliath's son in it, I wondered if the article had erred and gotten the gender of Goliath's offspring wrong. (Of course, I know now that it was Angela that the article meant, not Thailog, so that there was no mistake there except on my part.)
In light of the opening flashback, Xanatos must have already started building a whole new set of Steel Clan robots even while he was still in prison, before "The Edge" (especially given that I spotted a whole bunch of those robots in storage, alongside the one that was activated to attack Goliath).
I also liked Owen's "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" line. He really sounded hurt there.
I was interested to notice Renard on Xanatos's suspects list for Thailog's kidnapping, alongside Demona and Macbeth. While I can easily imagine Demona or Macbeth being willing to engage in such a maneuver against Xanatos, I doubt, in light of his rigid code of integrity, that Renard would have done the same (although there is "Golem" to consider, coming up later in the season). Maybe Xanatos believed that the temptation of kidnapping his new gargoyle would have been too much for even his father-in-law to resist.
Sevarius's hamming it up with Xanatos ("Yes! You robbed me of my creation!") was one of the funniest moments in "Gargoyles" for me; certainly the funniest in the episode. (Don't quit your day job, Anton.) And I agree with you about the Dr. Antinori business, by the way. (Also on the subject of Sevarius's overacting, I couldn't help but think that some of his narration in the "clone files" that Lex and Broadway discovered felt almost like a parody of that in a nature documentary, such as the "time for it to leave the nest" line, though I don't know if it was intended that way.)
You no doubt recall how I'd earlier pointed out the similarities between Thailog and Edmund (which I first began to notice after you mentioned Edmund being your favorite Shakespeare character); it occurred to me recently that Thailog also does have a certain similarity to Mordred, especially in many modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend, such as T. H. White. He's Goliath's "illegitimate son", just as Mordred was Arthur's, and his training by his other two fathers, Xanatos and Sevarius, does have (if you're out looking for the parallels) a certain echo of how Mordred, in White's "The Once and Future King", similarly gets trained by his mother Morgause. And the dynamics between Goliath and Thailog, with Goliath initially rejecting his son but then learning that he was wrong to do so, and now reaching out to him - but too late - do remind me of how in White, Arthur similarly initially moves against his son (trying to drown him at birth), but then understands that he was wrong to do so, also makes the attempt to reach out to him, but is coldly rejected by Mordred when he does so. (Come to think of it, Thailog also clearly lusts after both of Goliath's loves, Demona and Elisa, even to the point of combining them in Delilah, just as Mordred lusts after his stepmother Guinevere and attempts to wed her after he usurps his father's throne.)
I've mentioned before the element that I believe makes Thailog an especially great antagonist (the incongruous pairing of Goliath's physical appearance and voice with a thoroughly Xanatosian amorality - though I think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos does, which is also a good touch), so I won't go into that again. It's a bit of a pity that he only turned up twice more in the original series after that ("Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"), although I suppose that if you'd gotten to do more episodes past "The Journey" that we'd have gotten a lot more of the guy.
The ending definitely surprised me; I was expecting Xanatos to reveal that he'd seen to it that he didn't lose the ransom money after all, but instead we got the revelation that Thailog had escaped with it and is out there, happily scheming away, to Xanatos's own alarm. (As I mentioned before, it's particularly of interest to note that this is the last time in the series that Xanatos attempts to make his own gargoyles - and after the way that Thailog backfired on him, who can blame him?)
It's great to have the rambles going again, and I'm looking forward to the ones to come.
I'm afraid we haven't made that much Ramble progress recently, though I know we got past Avalon and into (at least) the beginning of the World Tour.
I think, like your Edmund comparison, your comparison of Thailog to Mordred is very apt. Perhaps moreso. Another bastard, basically. I'm not sure how conscious I was of any of these individuals influences, but I'm fascinated with the archetype of "The Bastard" in literature. Both the quote/unquote good guys (like Theseus, Arthur, Dunois, etc.) and the quote/unquote bad guys (like Edmund and Mordred, etc.) Thailog with his three fathers was clearly designed to be our bastard. And what a great bastard he is.
I've certainly read White's ONCE AND FUTURE KING at least a couple times. And I've lost count how many times I've seen CAMELOT.
Hi Greg. Long-winded question, so bear with me.
One of the recurring themes of Western story-telling is that those who "tamper in God's domain", to borrow a phrase, will be struck down for their hubris. After the enterance of Frankenstein into our collective consciousness, one of the "rules" for Western literature is that Frankenstein must always be destroyed by his monster, for his arrogance in playing god.
The reason I bring this up, is that Xanatos is a man who seems to like playing god. And he has left a trail of monsters in his wake.
I'll ignore Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf for the purposes of this question, since it could be argued that they were already monsters who merely allowed their exteriors to be altered to match their true natures. (Although, it could also be argued that those three were tempted by David and his offers of power and vengeance, but at the end of the day, I still think they all damned themselves willingly)
I'd go so far as to even ignore the mutates, because even though they become monsterous looking, they really don't fit the bill as "monsters". They're just ordinary people who, by virtue of making some bad character judgements, find themselves with fur and wings. (Although it probably doesn't help Xanatos' karma any)
But even ignoring those two examples, you still have...
1. Coldstone. Such an obvious Frankenstein archtype that you joked about it. (The "It's alive! ALLLLLLLIVE!" sequence remains one of my favorites from the whole show) Of course, you could lay Coldstone at least partially at Demona's feet as well, so we'll move on.
2. Thailog. Grown in a lab, created with a mixture of different people, (Goliath's body and temper, Xanatos' mind and ethics, Sevarius'... libedo? Whatever accounts for Delilah) he turns almost immediately on his "fathers" You could call Thailog Sevarius' creature rather then Xanatos' except that David is the force behind his creation, and that Anton, for all his mad scientist posturing, could be seen as no more then a lab assistant, an Igor to David's Dr. Frankenstein.
3. The Coyote robot series. Xanatos' most personal "creature", the one to whom he gave his face (well, half of it) and voice. Loyal (?) to David for now, but unless forming the Ultrapack is David's idea, he presumably goes indepentant eventually. That, and we know he sets his sights on galactic domination in 2198, presumably not with his creator's blessing. (Then again, I could be wrong)
4. The Matrix. Created so that David and Fox could reshape the entire planet at their whim. If that's not arrogance, I don't know what is. Admittedly, I don't think it's becoming sentient along the way was part of the plan, and it's inclusion here might be a bit of a stretch, but I thought it was an example of Xanatos' hubris, if nothing else.
So, I guess, after all that lead up, my question is this: Would the pattern hold true? Would one (or all) of Xanatos' "creatures" come back to bite him in the ass later? As Elisa said "I wouldn't want Xanatos' karma."
There is a second part to this question, but I'll submit it separately, in case it's viewed as an idea.
Well, for starters, I'd argue your premise. Victor Frankenstein's life was certainly decimated by the monster he created and abandoned -- but he survived the experience, sadder and hopefully wiser.
Moreover, it was the abandonment that was his true sin in Mary Shelley's original work. The creation was certainly hybris. But Shelley is pretty darn clear that she viewed the abandonment as worse. And I tend to agree. It's nature vs. nurture. The creature wasn't created evil. He was driven to it.
As to X's karma and whether it will all come back to bite him in the ass, I think the answer is clearly yes. But I really see it as a separate question. That is, it is a karma question more than simply a playing god question. That's one element. But only one. After all, one might argue that David and Fox were playing god by bringing Alexander into the world. But I wouldn't argue that. And I'm sure that's not what you had in mind.
So let's go through the numbers.
I tend to agree that Wolf, Hyena and Jackal built their own cages. And for the record, seem quite happy to live in them.
The Mutates seem to be following the same path as the gargoyles themselves. That is to say, that Xanatos woke the gargoyles, and has often suffered for it since. He then turned these four humans into mutates, and has had to suffer a bit (though admittedly not much) for that. It will be interesting to see Talon's post-Hunter's Moon reaction to Goliath and Co. moving back into the Castle. But the larger truth is that Talon, Maggie and Claw are making lives for themselves.
1. Coldstone. Well, yeah, duh. This is our Frankenstein's monster. But as with most things, Xanatos is too smart to truly follow in Victor's footsteps. He helps create the creature -- and certainly uses it -- but he never simply abandons it. And he also tries to balance (or bury) the Karmic scales, by helping out with Coldstone's Multiple Personality Disorder and by building Coldsteel and Coldfire.
2. Thailog. Here's the big threat, frankly. A guy with something to prove and three fathers to prove it all to. I think Xanatos hasn't seen the last of Thailog. One could argue that Thailog is the only guy to ever beat Xanatos at his own game (in Double Jeopardy). So the hybris of creating him has already bitten X's ass. But I doubt Thailog is through.
3. Coyote... I just don't want to reveal too much on this right now. Sorry.
4. I really think you have to chalk Matrix up to Fox's hybris (and competitive spirit) rather than to David's. She was certainly having the Matrix engineered for her and her man, but that doesn't mean that Xanatos was behind it. That would assume that she cannot operate independently. And I sure as heck wouldn't assume that about her.
So the short answer: yes. But it's all very nuanced.
How can Thailog and the Clones be cured of the clone virus when they're solid stone, and incapable of intraveneous injection? If science is a kind of magic, as Titania mentions in 'The Gathering' two-parter, no mage could meddle with it.
Well...
1. Don't take what Titania said too literally. She was making an analogy, not writing a treatise.
2. Keep in mind, you're talking Goliath Chronicles.
Since Coyote was given artificial intelligence with Xanatos's personality and Thailog was given Xanatos's slant on the world:
1)How does Coyote view Thailog?
If you ask which version of Coyote, I am referring to all the versions of Coyote that know about Thailog and his origins.
2)How does Thailog view Coyote?
I am referring to every version of Coyote that Thailog is aware of.
I don't know exactly HOW artificially intelligent Coyote is through his first four appearances. He has certain pre-programmed responses, which certainly make him appear clever, and he is fairly sophisticated, but I'm not sure I'd label him as artificially intelligent, as the term is usually defined. Compare Matrix, for example.
1. I don't even know if Coyote has info on Thailog. I guess Xanatos would plan a contingency in case Thailog were to appear during one of Coyote's operations. But again, I don't think the Coyote you saw THINKS.
2. As a tinker toy that might some day be of some use.
I realize that this is a very forward question, but I tried my best to put it as respectable as possible. Demona and Thailog seemed to have a very close relationship. Did they ever mate?
If you're asking if they ever had sex, then the answer is yes.
Or as they would say, "None of your damn business! Now, DIE!!"
This isn't really a question, but rather a corrective comment.
Obviously Goliath wouldn't know, but I don't know about you, but Thailog is NOT Goliath's son. They are brothers. Until I went to a genetics seminar with my AP bio class, this would never have crossed my mind.
Anyway, to the point. The reason Thailog can't be Goliath's son is because of genetics. Thailog's genes came from Goliath, which in turn came from Goliaths parents. Now, therefore, technically Thailog has the same parents as Goliath (since all his chormosomes can be traced back through Goliath's parents).
There's more to it that, but I wanted to keep it it terms understandable. Another simpler way to make the argument is that since Thatilog has the same genes as Goliath, they're sort of like identical twins, born years apart (and of course identical twins are siblings of each other). It's the same with the labrynth clones as well, they are bothers of the gargs they were cloned from.
Delilah is a whole different story. I can't explain that one, but i guess she's a half sister to both Elisa and Demona, but I can't prove it genetically.
Sorry if I seemed to have a "you're wrong, I'm right" attitude, but I just wanted to let you know what the real world truth was. Now Gargoyles Universe truth, well, I can't tell you what's right and wrong, that's for you to decide.
Thanx for listening to my lecture :)
Actually, I found this post very interesting and informative. It doesn't change the emotional reality of how Thailog and Goliath feel about each other. But it's good to know. And I appreciate -- greatly -- that you weren't trying to make me look foolish, just filling me in on an obvious gap in my knowledge.
It's over a year since you posted this, so I don't have any idea if you're still hanging around. But Thank You, Artemis. It is appreciated.
Time to ramble...
This episode was directed by Dennis Woodyard, written and story edited by Cary Bates.
The one word title, as usual, was one of mine. I thought initially that we'd be even more focused on the Cathedral. That we might play a Quasimodo character. Heck, if Disney's "Hunchback" movie was going to have living gargoyles bouncing around, then I could have a Quasimodo swinging from the bell-ropes.
But the story, thank goodness, rightly evolved into a family drama with Goliath, Elisa, Angela, Demona, Macbeth and Thailog (and Bronx) providing us with one very ODD family. Quasimodo went away in favor of Thailog.
And we had to work a bit to make sure the thematic idea of the heart as a Sanctuary worked its way into the picture. Thank God for that French minister, eh?
During the "Previously..." recap the following exchange was heard between my eight year old daughter Erin and my five year old son Ben, after Angela learns (in that scene from "Monsters") that Goliath is her biological father:
Benny: He IS her father. He laid the egg.
Erin: Girls lay eggs.
Benny: His wife laid the egg.
ROMANCE
Enter, for the third time or the first (or, depending on your point of view, maybe this one doesn't count either), Ms. Dominique Destine. She tells Mac, "We have all the time in the world..."
This for me (and I know for Bond expert Cary) was a very memorable line from "On Her Majesty's Secret Service." And always a good sign that a relationship is going to come to a bad end.
Elisa tips her hand, which she can do cuz no one is awake, about how she really feels about Goliath here. "The most romantic city in the world and Goliath isn't awake to share it with me." (Or something like that, all quotations are approximate.) That's what she'd like to do, I'd wager. Soar over Paris with G. the way they soared over Manhattan in "Awakenings". Now had he been awake, do you think she would have made that request? Or would she in fact be distancing herself from him simply BECAUSE she had that impulse?
After her adventure on the Loch, it's nice to see Margot on a pleasant little stroll through Paris.
THE GARGOYLE WAY
Why is Goliath so resistant to parenting Angela? After all, though they're really more like younger brothers, he does his fair share of parenting the Trio.
He falls back on "The Gargoyle Way", but that's certainly inadequate, as Diane Maza will later point out. Yes, he's only one of her rookery fathers, but he's (a) the only one there and (b) the only one left alive except for the two souls trapped inside the AWOL Coldstone.
Ultimately, I think the answer is that Angela's sudden obssession with her "BIOLOGICAL" parentage makes him nervous because of the obvious extrapolation to what comes next. If she's obssessed with me as Daddy, then what happens when she learns who Mommy is?
And that's the key. He's divorced Demona. His wife who laid the egg. It took centuries and months, but after "Vows" he moved on. Now he sees Demona as a nemesis. A painful one to be sure, but a nemesis none the less. He's afraid of what the knowledge will do to Angela. He's afraid of what Demona will do with Angela, should Angela share that knowledge. And is he perhaps afraid of what -- under Demona's influence -- Angela might become?
THE CATHEDRAL
There's some nice animation in this episode -- but none of it is at Notre Dame. That sequence put us through fits in retakes and editing. Ugghh. It's still painful to look at.
But there's some nice stuff going on...
Demona says: "In here my love." to Goliath before she realizes its not Thailog. What did you all think of that line? At this point we had only seen one silhouetted monster from a distance. And since you knew Demona was in town, we intentionally tried to lead you to belive that she was the Monster at Notre Dame. Were you expecting Thailog? Or did you think that Demona was addressing G as 'my love'?
Goliath's arrival is a shock to her, so what did you think then?
Then Thailog's arrival is supposed to be a bigger shock to you guys. Was it?
I love hearing Thailog say: "My angel of the night."
Demona has a good line too: "Jealous and paranoid."
Later, we set up Nightstone Unlimited and their two "human" identities, Alexander Thailog and Dominique Destine.
At this point in production, we knew that Fox was going to have a baby but we had not named it yet. I couldn't think of a better first name for Thailog and later I couldn't think of a better first name for Alexander Xanatos. At first this bugged me. But I began to realize it made perfect sense. Xanatos had programmed his "first" son well. If X would pick Alexander, why wouldn't T have picked it as well. And there's something so symmetrical about both his kids being named Alexander.
TOURISTS
Elisa sits at a french cafe talking out loud to herself. Ugh. Very awkward. Obviously, we couldn't come up with a solution we liked better. I'm sure it occured to me to do it in voice over, but just chucking a V.O. sequence in the middle of an ep is very awkward too. Suddenly, the movie is POV Elisa, and we weren't doing that here. (Cf. "Revelations" and Matt's VO narration.)
I do like her last line though, coming as it did from a long time Superman scripter, Cary Bates: "This is a job... for the Gargoyles!"
THE WEDDING NIGHT
We had Macbeth use the Lennox Macbeth name instead of Lennox Macduff because we thought it would be too confusing to give him an entirely different name to any new viewers. And it makes sense that he has multiple aliases. But it still bugs me and I think in hindsight, I wish we had just been consistent.
Demona kicks Macbeth into unconsciousness, and Erin asks: "Why didn't she get hurt?"
And that's a very fair question. As usual with D&M's Corsican Brother connection, we tried very hard to be faithful to it, but it was very hard. And we wound up being a bit inconsistent. The best I can suggest is that when Demona knows she's going to hurt M and it isn't just on impulse, she can more or less steel herself against the magical feedback. It's still painful. But she doesn't show it as much.
The Gargoyles wake up and Elisa says: "Look alive, guys!" Well, they do now, don't they?
I love how Thailog slips Mac the gun and then later yells at Demona, "Didn't you search him?!" He's an evil genius that one. And passive-aggressive too.
Thailog's plan is brilliant, I think. So elegant. So simple. And if not for Elisa, so effective.
Mac's suicidal tendencies resurface. Demona's legendary temper gets the better of her common sense.
Thailog really comes into his own in this ep. Sure, Xanatos said he may have created a monster, but now Thailog has outsmarted X, D and M. Who the hell is left to outsmart?
And he has some great lines too:
"You and what clan?"
"Teamwork is so overrated."
"Aren't you spunky?'" (Another Lou Grant reference of course.)
To be fair, he couldn't immediately know that Angela was blood kin, but still doesn't his reaction to her give you the creeps? When X says Angela is lovely in "Cloud Fathers" I don't think anyone thought he was being salacious. But T? Yeah, baby.
Of course, Goliath finally gets the picture after this one. Up to this point, he was thinking Demona's the lost cause but maybe Thailog is salvagable. Now he knows better. At least about T anyway.
BATTLE
There's a lot of water in that water tower. It looks cool though. The animation here makes up for the Cathedral stuff.
I love Goliath's two-handed punch.
I love Demona's punch-drunken sway, as she makes her move to, as Mac says, "put us out of our misery..."
But I've always wondered why the background painters put multiple pictures of Elisa on the wall of Macbeth's chateau. Odd, that.
When I was young, I used to love MASH, particularly back in the Wayne Rogers days. (And, yes, Wayne is a friend of my dad's now. But they didn't know each other back then so I was unbiased.) But one thing that used to drive me nuts was the repetition of the following exchange:
<LOTS OF SHELLING IS ROCKING THE HOSPITAL. SUDDENLY, IT STOPS.>
Hawkeye: Do you hear that?
Someone else: Hear what?
Hawkeye: Silence! The shelling's stopped!
This was fine the first time they used it. By the twentieth time it got VERY old.
But we do a version of it here after Elisa shoots Demona ending the battle.
Why? When it used to drive me nuts? It's amazing what I'll pay tribute too.
KEITH meet MR. DAVID
I love playing Thailog against Goliath, because I love those Thailog/Goliath exchanges where Keith plays both roles. That's one of the main reasons we created Thailog. To enjoy listening to Keith go to town.
1st Epilogue:
Goliath: "She has done you a favor, Macbeth."
That line should be a bit of a shock when G first says it. But it makes a lot of sense after he explains. And I love the look that Goliath and Elisa share. They aren't even pretending they don't share those feelings. They just won't act on them.
And how about Goliath actually telling a joke: "Just make sure you get a good look at her at night." Word.
2nd Epilogue:
One of the things I like about our series is we didn't have to end each episode the same way.
This one ends rather darkly. Goliath won't acknowledge the obvious. He just broods. Angela turns to Elisa: "Elisa, I have to know." And Elisa confirms that Demona is Angela's mother, because it's ridiculous to either lie or to not confirm the obvious that Angela has already figured out. But she knows G didn't want A to know that. So everyone is left unhappy as we sail into the fog.
And Erin ends the episode saying: "I think Elisa should be her mother."
(Me, I've always seen them sharing a more sisterly relationship. But I thought Erin's idea was sweet, and certainly came out of the sexual tension between E&G.)
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
In prep for my ramble on Sanctuary, here's my notes to Story Editor/Writer Cary Bates on his first outline for "Sanctuary"...
WEISMAN 2-13-95
Notes on "Sanctuary" Outline...
GENERAL
Cary, I'm going to resist the temptation of beating this all out for you. That's how I got so far behind before. And at this stage I doubt I could do it any faster or better than you. So I want you to do a second draft on this outline, addressing ALL of the notes below. I sympathize, in advance. This is a complicated story. But I know we (meaning mostly you) can make it work. Don't take too long. And feel free to call after you've read this. We may be able to work out some of the problems over the phone. Good luck and here goes:
"SANCTUARY"
How does the title fit? What is the theme of the story? Is it about feeling safe? Safe in the arms of someone you love? I like that notion, but we'd have to emphasize it a lot more.
And simultaneously, more of the action should be centered around Notre Dame Cathedral. Economically, we can't afford to design backgrounds for an entire city. So we should keep the action focused on a few locations, that climax at the gargoyle covered cathedral-"sanctuary".
Plus, we don't want newspapers to be generically talking about a "mysterious winged creature". We want them focused on the Creature haunting the Cathedral at night. Maybe they think it's someone posing as Quasimodo, or his spirit or maybe they even think it's a gargoyle come to life or something. Of course, it's really Thailog. (Not Demona, by the way.) He's been there since "Double Jeopardy". Arriving long before Demona and Macbeth arrived.
We need to involve Thailog more at the end. Make him part of the conflict. I think he would have upgraded a bit. Used some of that $20 million to armor himself for battle. Not necessarily robotic armor, but at least a chestplate. Maybe wrist and shin guards. Keep in mind, we want him to be more powerful than Goliath and more threatening than any other villain. We should probably arm him with some big high-tech bazooka/laser/cannon type-thing too.
And we don't have to break up Demona and Thailog at the end. We just need to know that Thailog doesn't really care for her.
Remember, Thailog's plan isn't to kill Demona and Macbeth for the sake of killing them. He wants what they have managed to acquire over the last nine hundred years. If he could add that to the fortune he's parlayed from the money he stole from Xanatos, he might be able to compete with Xanatos financially. He needs to have already merged Demona's holdings with his own. So that his corporation (and we should get a cool, evocative name for it) we'll inherit in the case of her demise. And he wants to inherit Macbeth's stuff too. So if Mac and Dierdre marry, and both die together, (which is the only way they can die) he'll get everything.
Now, I'm not pretending this is easy to accomplish. As I read the outline, I was wondering if we needed a maguffin or two to symbolize this wealth. Maybe Macbeth's Paris Mansion itself. But we managed to figure something out for "Outfoxed" that clearly and dynamically spelled out Halcyon and Fox's "financial conflict". We can do the same thing here. With the same clarity.
OTHER QUESTIONS
Does Macbeth plan on telling "Dierdre" the truth about himself?
Is this the first time since Gruoch that Macbeth has been in love? Since he's an immortal has he avoided close relationships, not wanting to outlive his lover? Or watch her grow old? Or has he been through this before? Maybe not often, but once or twice over the last nine hundred years. How did he handle it in the past? Is he doing something different now? Highlander questions, basically.
Is Macbeth afraid for Dierdre's life? Does he think Demona might try to harm Dierdre to get back at him?
Do Goliath, Elisa and Angela assume at first that Macbeth and human Demona are in cahoots and only realize/remember later that since M&D have no memory of anything between City of Stone and Avalon, that Macbeth might not know that this human woman is in fact Demona?
Do we have an opportunity, maybe when Goliath and Elisa are searching Paris for the villains, for them to be romanitcally affected by the City of Lights?
When it's over, instead of Macbeth simply remaining bitter and once again suicidal, could Goliath point out to him that life offers possibilities... that if Macbeth could fall in love with Demona, he could certainly fall in love with someone else? Someone nice who would make his long life worth living again, at least for a time.
SOME SPECIFICS
A bunch of things, (some of which Cary the Story Editor should have been able to catch from his reading of past scripts, tsk tsk). Some of these notes may be moot after a rewrite of the outline.
Beat 2) Goliath, Elisa and Angela know that Demona and Macbeth left Avalon unconcious and together. Wherever they landed it would also have to be together. (Of course, Goliath and Co. have been travelling for awhile. So there's no guarantee that Macbeth and Demona stayed together after landing wherever they landed. It's just a good bet.)
There's also no reason for Goliath to assume that Macbeth and Demona are involved with each other still. (After all, they hate each other.) Also no reason to assume that Macbeth would be hurt by the association. And though there's no love left between Demona and Goliath, Goliath has no reason to feel sympathy for Macbeth. The audience might. Some of them would know Mac's backstory from City of Stone and sympathyze, but Goliath doesn't know the whole story. And he's got no reason to think more of Macbeth than Demona. Ironically, it is Thailog, more evil than any of the others, who Goliath would have the most sympathy for. He sees Thailog as a victim of poor upbringing. He'd like to reform and rescue his "son".
On the other hand, by this time Goliath believes that they land everywhere for a purpose. If he sees Macbeth and/or Demona, it's not too big a leap for him to figure that whatever the purpose, it involves these villains.
Beat 4) Again, here we'd like the headlines to be more specific to the Cathedral.
Beat 5) Elisa would recognize the human Demona from "High Noon".
Beat 7) We are forcing the creation of a lot of different sets and backgrounds here. Also don't forget that Demona's transformations to gargoyle (and back) are painful. Also don't forget that Macbeth feels any pain that Demona feels and vice versa. Distance reduces the pain, but we've never been really specific about how much distance or what the reduction is. Does Macbeth, across town, feel a little of Demona's pain at transformation? If so, he could blame Demona, knowing as he does, that he feels her pain. All that would tell him is that Demona is in the vicinity. It wouldn't reveal that Demona is Dierdre, unless he saw her transform. On the other hand, Demona might be far enough away that Macbeth feels nothing. Or just a slight twinge of soreness, that he doesn't immediately connect with Demona. We can play it any of these ways, we just need to deal with this "Corsican Brother"-style pain-sharing. We can't ignore it.
Beat 10) We've got a lot of set-up with little action up to this point. Maybe we can streamline a bit. Also, it feels like Mac's hovercraft might be a little unwieldy for this sequence. Maybe he's on the flying equivalent of a jet-ski or something a bit more svelt.
But there's another big question. What is Macbeth's objective towards Demona at this point? He knows that the only way to rid himself of her is to die himself. He may have forgotten the lessons of City of Stone and Avalon, but I would think that his love for Dierdre would prevent him from wanting to die. Later we imply that he's chasing Demona in order to chase her out of town. But that's pretty goofy logic. "I haven't seen you in weeks. So I'm going to hunt you down, to make sure you stay out of my life."
Beat 11) We definitely want to do something with the Eiffel Tower. Maybe even stage a battle there in the first or second act. But the Tower is open to tourists at night. Does anyone see them hanging there? Or are we way into wee hours by this time?
Beat 13) Goliath can't steal this guys camcorder. He's not a thief. Even destroying it is pretty malicious for Goliath, who's never gone too far out of his way to hide from humans.
Beat 16) Gargoyles don't kiss. They stroke hair. And it's "Notre Dame" ("Our Lady"), not "Notre Damn" ("Our Damnation"?)
Beat 17) The Cathedral is a very temporary safe house for Thailog while some safer, new place is being built for him. (Or maybe that's part of what Thailog is after: Macbeth's Paris Mansion.) It is not abandoned. Thailog is safe their during the day, because he's like a needle in a gargoyle haystack. After dark, he can stay out of sight in the upper reaches, until the Cathedral closes for the night. But he can't have much of a set-up there. Computers? Paintings? I don't think so. Particularly when we've got reports of a creature climbing around the church at night. People might investigate. They wouldn't find Thailog. But what would they make of that computer?
Beat 18) Demona may have no desire to "see" Goliath, since she found Thailog. But she'd still want him dead. Plus she MUST be curious about this female gargoyle. She thinks she knows all the gargoyles that exist, and none of them are female. She'd have to know. (And for that matter, so would Thailog.)
Beat 19) Think about how silly it would look in live action, if a villain who looked like Thailog, whipped out a brush and in a few seconds added a necklace to a painting. It's equally silly looking in animation. Maybe moreso because it's so easy to do.
I don't understand the pre-nuptual agreement at all. Why does Macbeth feel he needs it? (And don't tell me his lawyers push him around.) Besides, the whole idea of it goes against what we want to have happen in the story. Thailog wants Mac and Demona to get married. And have Demona inherit so that he can inherit from her, when both Demona and Mac die. Or am I missing something? I don't think we want this to be about stealing money from a safe. That's small potatos for Thailog and Demona. Either we need to have some irreplaceable (possibly magical) maguffin in that safe, or we should be dealing with the whole ball of wax. The former would probably be easier, but I'd like to go for the latter ball of wax if we can.
Beat 20) Again, I don't buy Macbeth's logic for hunting down Demona.
Beat 21) Angela can't operate a camcorder. She's not Lex. (And as noted above, I don't see anyway for our guys to have this anyhow.) Plus she wouldn't recognize Thailog. Also it feels like a pretty big jump for Goliath to figure that Demona and Thailog are working together. Not an impossible jump, but a big one.
Also, I was unclear. Did Goliath have a chance to give instructions to Elisa or did he turn to stone before he had time?
Beat 23) Again, I don't believe Macbeth lets lawyers push him around. And I don't think we need this pre-nup agreement in the story.
Beat 24) I really don't like this camcorder. And I don't know why Elisa needs it here. Like if she followed Mac and Dem, returned to Goliath without visual proof he wouldn't believe her story?
Beat 25) "How can I prove my love to you?" "Give me the combination to your safe." Yeah, that wouldn't make me suspicious.
I'd almost rather play any scene like this where Macbeth is insisting on giving something to Dierdre, who protests that she doesn't want it. The more she protests that all she needs is his love, the more he wants to lavish on her. In this way, he is predictable, but he's not being fooled by "crocodile tears" into doing something that seems incredibly fishy.
Beat 26) Again, Elisa would recognize human Demona from "High Noon" the first time she saw her. But here I was entirely unclear. How does footage of Dierdre prove that she's Demona, when Elisa didn't recognize her in person?
And this bit about Dierdre being Demona's name...? Gargoyles didn't have names in the tenth century. Naming is a human convention. Goliath referred to Demona back then as his angel love, or his angel of the night. Do we want to change "Dierdre" to "Angel" or "Angelica" or "Angelique". I don't know if you still need this, since Elisa would recognize human Demona, but I suppose you could, as long as we wouldn't be confusing the audience with Angela.
Why wouldn't Goliath want Elisa along? And why would Elisa agree to stay behind?
And what is it that Angela's staring at? Footage of human Dierdre? This isn't going to help her make the connection between herself and Demona. Visual clues aren't really the answer at all, since she would have seen Demona in the Avalon 3-parter. She learned from Sevarius that Goliath was her biological father. Here she learns that Demona was Goliath's love all those years ago. She puts two and two together over the course of the episode. Figuring out the truth only after she's already come to regard Demona as evil. You won't have room here to deal with the ramifications of that discovery. You're just setting things up for another story.
Beat 27) Why does Macbeth want to capture Goliath and Angela if he wants to get Gargoyles out of his life for good?
Beat 28) Goliath is "spreading" lies? To who? I mean we know he's not. But who does Macbeth think he's spreading lies to, that makes him want to imprison Goliath to stop it?
Also Macbeth could NOT have heard about Thailog. He was under the Weird Sister's spell when Thailog made his only other appearance. Besides who would he have heard about him from?
Beat 32) Again, not at all happy about Thailog's magic paintbrush. Particularly since it proves nothing here. It's not a photograph. If Macbeth thinks Goliath might lie about Dierdre, why wouldn't he think that this is a further lie somehow accomplished by Goliath.
Beat 33) I'm glad Macbeth keeps his cook. That guy can make a mean omelette.
Beat 36) Again, don't forget that Macbeth and Demona feel each other's pain while fighting.
Beat 39) These are huge leaps for Angela to make. How does she know this about Thailog. Also does Thailog show up there, state what he states and then not get involved in the fight? Or is that a typo for Goliath? Maybe we should let the battle climax at the Cathedral. Thailog is there. Goliath tries to "save" his son from Demona's evil. (Goliath assumes this plan is Demona's, not Thailog's.) Thailog just laughs. Reveals he wants Mac and Demona to kill each other. And he'll kill Goliath to prevent him interferring. Or something like that.
Beat 41) Killing Demona would at least knock Macbeth out.
Beat 42) Again, doesn't Thailog want anything besides their deaths?
Beat 44) Goliath still needs to be in some discomfort vis-a-vis the biological mother and father thing. It's not the gargoyle way. Brynne is going to deal with this (she'll have the space to deal with it) in her Africa story. Let Elisa be the one who confirms Angela's suspicions.
Beat 45) Again, I think we're working against our own ends. Why does Thailog need Macbeth and Demona dead, if not for what he can gain by their deaths?
Beat 46) Again, I think we can let Demona and Thailog go off together. Also, we've spent the whole episode with Demona turning back and forth from human to gargoyle. Demona does not turn to stone -- ever.
Beat 47) Angela should not get any comfort from Goliath in this episode. You don't have the time to deal with it here. If she receives comfort, it would come from Elisa.
MOVING FORWARD
O.k. try another pass. I'd streamline, by opening with the skiff arriving in daylight. Elisa leaves the stone gargoyles on the skiff tied under a bridge and goes to explore Paris. A place she's never been. She probably calls home again. Maybe she tries her parents this time, and again gets an answering machine. To save money on a voice actor, the answering message can be one that Elisa recorded for her parents months ago. (My sister is on my parents' machine with a message she recorded two years ago.) Elisa's voice says something like: "My parents don't know how to work their answering machine, but if you leave a message for Peter or Diane Maza, there's a fifty-fifty chance they'll call you back"). You don't have to jump through hoops to get the message erased this time. Then she briefly wanders around Paris like a tourist until she spots Mac and "Dierdre" who she immediately recognizes as Demona. She doesn't know that Mac doesn't know it's Demona. She'd probably assume they're up to something bad together. And also guess that they're why she and Goliath, etc. have landed in Paris. She follows them at a safe distance, etc. She doesn't want to get spotted. Near nightfall, she might head back so that she can inform Goliath when he awakens. Or she might not want to lose Macbeth and Demona until after she's found their H.Q. Or maybe when Mac and Dierdre split up, Elisa follows Dierdre to see where she lands, then loses her among the tourists at the cathedral.
Anyway, that's somewhere to start.
My family and I watched "Double Jeopardy" a few nights ago for the DCV and for my (belated) but on-going Ramblings on each of the Gargoyles episodes...
(This 'chapter'/episode was written & Story Edited by my old buddy Cary Bates.)
It's literally been over a year since my kids or my wife have seen an episode of Gargoyles. I've occasionally had to check out individual scenes and/or credits for things I've been working on, but I don't think I've sat down to watch a whole episode beginning to end in quite some time either.
Watching the opening titles, my five year old son Benny remarked to his seven year old sister Erin: "You have [Brooklyn] and I have Goliath." He's referring to the Kenner toys I gave them a couple Christmas' ago. Erin, I believe has Brooklyn, Broadway and the Steel Clan robot. Benny has Goliath, Lex and Xanatos.
Then when Benny saw Xanatos in the credits, he said, "I was Xanatos last year." Here, he's referring to the fact that he dressed up as Xanatos for the costume ball at G2000. I had to point out that that was nearly TWO years ago.
TITLE
Cary must have come up with this one, I think. I tend to favor one-worders myself. His original title was "Thailog Rules", which I didn't care for. I liked "Reversals" but he must have convinced me to go for "Double Jeopardy".
Erin, who can now read, asked what "Jeopardy" meant. I said "Trouble". And she was very amused that the title 'translated' as "Double Trouble". She liked that better, I think. She also enjoys reading the various on-screen scrawls, like "One Year Ago" and "One Year Later". Reading is like a super-power to her now. I hope she doesn't lose that.
THE FLASHBACK
So we open with a touch of continuity. Or retcon, I suppose. Though to me retcon is a nearly derogative term suggesting that continuity has been abused to fit new circumstances and I think our little flashback here fits in nicely with what we already knew of that time. A Steel Clan Robot interrupts Elisa trying to convince G that they need to find a new home. Goliath puts the bot down hard and fast. It's a cool and well-timed scene.
It's nice to see Goliath's old stubbornness there too.
Now, to the present. There's a color error (or perhaps cheat) where we see a flash of what will eventually turn out to be Thailog's arm. It's Goliath's color, not Thailog's.
Then we hear the maniacal laughter, which Hudson will later comment on: "Do you even know how to laugh maniacally?" he'll ask Goliath. The answer, surprisingly, is yes. Though I had forgotten, Goliath laughs pretty darn maniacally in "Enter Macbeth" after Macbeth suggests that Demona will come to Goliath's rescue. Still, one of the impulses that made me want to create Thailog was Keith David's talent. The fact that he was brilliant as Goliath, but that Goliath didn't allow us to show but a fraction of Keith's true range. Creating Thailog allowed Keith to do things that he otherwise wouldn't. And I think he's amazing. There's never any question as to which character is speaking whether that character is on-camera or not. And he does it all with acting. The voice itself is the same. Thailog lets Keith cut loose and just be BAD.
Also, a touch of Jeff Bennett's amazing flexibility too. Jeff does a Schwartzenegger impersonation for the mercenary. Beth immediately recognized it as an Arnold takeoff, but didn't know who was voicing it. She was suitably impressed to find out it was yet another creation of JB's.
I like Lex's line: "Made my hair stand on end... if I had any". (Note, all quotations are approximate.)
I had some fun trying to mess with the audience's minds. Which is tough, because honestly you guys (tv watchers in general these days) are pretty savvy people who know most writer-tricks. When you saw Thailog frozen in stone on the parapet, before the real Goliath & Brooklyn appeared in the episode, what did you think was going on?
Benny (still focused on the prologue) theorized: "It's a robot that also can be turned to stone."
Erin knew it wasn't Goliath. And after a few minutes wondered if the robot had cloned Goliath. (NOTE: Both kids have seen the episode before. But long ago. And for Benny, so long ago, that there's really no possible way he could remember it. Erin doesn't remember either, at least not consciously, but she may have more of a sense of it buried in there somewhere.)
CONTINUITY:
The Emir is mentioned again. I think, though I can't remember for sure, that by this time, I had some vague notion of picking up on the throw away mention of this guy in "The Edge" and using him as a character later. So we mention him having deadline problems. In theory, he's already working on the Anubis plan that Xanatos agreed to bankroll back in "The Edge" -- but which wouldn't come to fruition until "Grief".
Owen is fun here too for me: "Is this a plan you neglected to mention?" A reasonable possibility, though it's hard to imagine that Xanatos would work anything behind Owen's back. I also like the bit about how Xanatos has never lacked for formidable enemies.
And Arnold's line about Sevarius giving him the creeps is truer now than ever before. Sitting in front of me is an article from this past Sunday's L.A. Times about Dr. Severino Antinori's real life cloning experiments. I even have a picture of the guy. He doesn't look much like our Anton. But the name and the sliding ethics sure sound spookily like Dr. Sevarius. As far as I know, that's a name that Michael Reaves made up out of the blue. It's really weirding me out.
Owen & Xanatos figure out that the kidnapper is Sevarius, and Xanatos has that great resigned villainous speech about how "An example must be made." It's funny. We have to work to get him to do anything that an everyday cartoon villain would do without breaking a sweat.
Also, we get the first mention of the "Thailog Project". The word "Thailog" itself, as I may have mentioned before, was another major impetus (is that spelled right) for creating the character.
While we were mixing the 35mm movie version of the pilot, there was one scene that was giving us trouble. The guys at Disney Sound kept rewinding across this scene over and over and I kept clearly hearing the same word "Thailog" over and over again. I eventually realized it was Elisa saying Goliath backwards. I just liked the sound of Thailog and that gave me the idea of creating an evil (i.e. backwards) Goliath. Again, that would also give Keith some fun opportunities.
But one thing I didn't want to do was to make Thailog a true dead-ringer for Goliath. I felt that had been done to death. It was fun to misdirect in the first act. But after that, I wanted something different. Thus we have the 'pigmentation' change brought on by the accelerated aging process. (This was another thing that mattered to me. Clones who miraculously are the same age as the original bug me. I wanted to at least pay lip service to the notion that theoretically a clone should age normally. The color change was an attempt to kill two birds with one stone.)
The specifics of the color change were actually inspired by John Byrne's tenure on the FANTASTIC FOUR at Marvel. He did a bunch of issues where the FF went to the Negative Zone, and when they emerged, their uniforms were altered from black and light blue to white and dark blue. It always seemed like a simple but stunning change. So Thailog was a nega-Goliath. (And, yes, Darkwing's foe Negaduck also had an influence, I'm sure.)
MORE CONTINUITY
Broadway's ongoing 'learning to read' subplot is advanced. Lex has put two and two together and guessed that what they saw might just be a clone. Which is smart o him, I think. But BW has to figure out what Lex was spelling out. Perhaps even more of a challenge for a guy that didn't care about the written word, just a few short months before.
Erin saw her birthday on the Thailog project logs, and was very tickled. (Of course, it's really no coincidence.) I felt a little bad, since Benny's birthday never appears in the show. (Since he wasn't born yet.)
BW: "This is bad news."
LEX: "You can say that again."
BW: "This is bad news."
Erin: <LAUGHS> "He said it again."
Love the X & Sev scenes. It's always fun to give Tim Curry a chance to really HAM it up. (You can see how a lot of our work was inspired by the talents of our cast.) But I just love cross-purpose conversations in general. And this one is a blast. It's also nice to see Xanatos confused for a change. Props to Jonathan Frakes, who always gave us a very non-showy but spot on performance. Particularly once the voice and animation were put together.
X: You're the kidnapper.
Sev: I guess I am at that.
Goliath sees Thailog for the first time and reacts very badly. I think it's (dare I say it) very human of him. He thinks Thailog is an abomination. I love the "...pieces out my soul" line. Love it.
***HEY! I know I've said this before, but in case everyone's forgotten... These ramblings are admittedly a little obnoxious. I'm like praising my own work here. Except (a) some of it isn't my work, but the work of my colleagues and it still impresses me and (b) I'm genuinely fond of all this stuff so forgive the indulgence.****
Anyway, Elisa points out that Thailog is almost Goliath's son.
This was another ongoing point of behind-the-scenes contention. Since Thailog appears to be Goliath's evil twin, Cary and others thought we should play them as brothers instead of father & son. But that just seemed wrong to me. That wasn't the relationship either genetically or otherwise. And I liked the notion of Thailog having three fathers that he was in constant conflict/competition with.
All the father/son stuff is great.
I love the "Chip off the old block" "All the old blocks" exchange. Pun intended of course.
And Thailog's line "...just to raise a fool."
And Sev's "You do and do and do for them."
Thailog laughs maniacally multiple times. YAY!
Round about here, Erin muttered: "This is an odd episode."
Note that Thailog is attracted to Elisa from the start. Creepy. But also he's more in touch with his body chemistry than Goliath is. Guess it helps if you haven't had a decades of socialization.
Actually, everyone admires Elisa. X for her delicate wrists. The bit with Elisa slipping out of her manacles always seemed like a bit of a cheat to me. (See, sometimes there are things I don't like.) The handcuffs line was a semi-feeble attempt to cover.
I like the idea that Sev had worked up a garg specific knock-out gas that Thailog used.
I liked the animation and sound work on Thailog tearing open the oil barrels.
I liked Thailog's line "Now I know where I got the temper." But does he really have much of a temper. He seems much more Xanatosian than Goliathesque in that regard. But I do think he holds more of a grudge. He just hides it.
Tangent, but I believe that this maybe explains his relationship (still to come) with Demona a bit. I think he knows on some level that Demona likes him because he's the Goliath she always wanted. And Thailog is very into being his own man. He wants nothing from his fathers that he hasn't TAKEN.
Thailog won't leave without his money. I'd ask in hindsight whether or not at that point the money was even still in that briefcase.
Goliath by the end is now fully on-board with the notion of Thailog being his son. His clannish instincts have taken over. And he feels that all of Thailog's rookery fathers (X, Sev and G) have failed Thailog. The notion of multiple fathers is something that's easy for him to grasp. But of course, he takes his own failure to heart more than the others. Cuz he expects THEM to be jerks.
And now our patented Xanatos Tag. Only it's flipped into a Thailog tag. I love Owen's line: "He's out there, he has the money, he's as powerful as Goliath and he's smarter than you." Only Owen could slam X like that with impunity. And X's return: "Owen, I think I've created a monster." Love that too.
Still not sure whether I love the super-imposed Thailog head. But I do like Thailog's maniacal laughter. Never get enough of that.
Erin: "[Thailog] practically is a monster. Gargoyles are supposed to be monsters. Only they're nicer. Thailog is a monster."
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
[With the DCV moving into episodes that my rambles haven't yet covered, I'm again going to try to reprint old memos from the series. What follows are my notes on writer/story editor Cary Bates' outline for what eventually became "Double Jeopardy". By the time we wrote this memo, we'd clearly gone through three iterations of the story (which I no longer possess). This version related below, is darn close to what we finally wound up with, and should give you an idea of how closely I worked with the story editors, though it reveals little about who came up with what, since even I don't remember how much of what follows was new to this document and how much was part of what came before. Enjoy.]
WEISMAN 12-24-94
Notes on "Thailog Rules" Outline...
GENERAL
O.K. You're last beat sheet was a big improvement. Particularly the Sevarius stuff. But something still seemed missing. So I reviewed all three versions of this thing and after dancing them around in my head a bit, came up with the following. It preserves the mystery of Goliath's strange behavior a little longer, but keeps the plotline moving along fast.
TITLE
I'm afraid "Thailog Rules" tips our hand too much. What do you think of the title "Reversals"? Or something similar with the word "negative" in it? Or something like "Sins of the Fathers"?
FIRST ENCOUNTER
I traded Brooklyn for Elisa. That way, we could get rid of the awkward phony weapons bit. Thailog (or Sevarius) could have left an anonymous tip for Elisa that brought her (and Lex and Broadway) past the right place at about the right time.
THAILOG'S DICTION
Can be very colloquial. Direct. Like his menacing laugh, it'll be weird for our audience to hear Keith's deep voice comfortably use edgy modern parlance.
BEAT SHEET
ACT ONE
1. Prologue. One year ago at Eyrie Building. Night. Keep very brief and simple. ELISA is trying to convince GOLIATH that he must find a new home, before Xanatos is released from prison. Suddenly, a STEEL CLAN ROBOT goes berserk, making a bee-line for Elisa. Goliath puts it down hard. OWEN apologizes and "treats" Goliath's small cut.
2. One year later. On a stormy night, Elisa is driving along Riverside Drive in upper Manhattan, where there's a bit of a cliff down to the water. LEXINGTON and BROADWAY are gliding through the storm above her. Lex wears a radio headset like the one he wore in "Legion". He uses it to communicate with Elisa, letting us in on the anonymous tip that brought them up here, and how it must have been a crank call, since it turned up nothing. (We need to believe that whatever this call claimed to reveal was something that would have led her to bring Lex and Broadway instead of Matt.) Just off shore, we should see an old oil rig platform. Suddenly, Lex and Broadway are attacked, and Elisa is "strafed" and nearly forced off the road and over the cliff. (Keep her point of view very tight and claustrophobic inside her car. Between the poor visibility and multiple "blind spots", she won't know where the next attack will come from.) As dangerous as the whole thing is, there's something almost childish about the attacks. Ultimately, Elisa gets control of her car, pulls over and gets out. Lex and Broadway land next to her, and they see their attacker. It's clearly "Goliath", though we only see him in silhouette, laughing. Then he is gone.
3. At Gen-U-Tech, DOCTOR SEVARIUS is making a down payment to LEAD MERCENARY. The Doctor's having a damn good time.
4. At the Clock Tower, just before Dawn, Elisa, Broadway and Lex have just finished describing Goliath's strange behavior to HUDSON. No one has a clue as to why Goliath would act that way, and they'll have to wait until sunset to find out. He and BROOKLYN were supposed to be out patrolling, and with Dawn fast approaching, they probably found a ledge to spend the day on: somewhere Goliath would feel safe.
5. Daytime at Eyrie Building. "Goliath" is frozen in stone on the highest tower of the Eyrie Castle. (Note: when "stoned" there's no way to tell the difference between Goliath and his counterpart.) XANATOS chats with Owen about how nice it is to have "him" here, guarding the castle. (Since they both know who they are talking about, they don't have to mention him by name.) Suddenly, MERCENARIES led by Sevarius' Lead Mercenary, land. Xanatos and Owen are caught off guard. Mercenaries leave with stone "Goliath" and Xanatos can't shoot them down without risking the gargoyle's life.
6. From his helicopter, the Lead Mercenary calls Sevarius by Video Phone, telling him that the mission is accomplished. They have the statue in the cargo hold in back. Sevarius is pleased and tells them to bring it to the rendezvous point, but not until after dark.
7. Night at the clock tower: Elisa, Hudson, Broadway, Lex and BRONX watch Goliath and Brooklyn come in for a landing. Goliath is bombarded with questions, but he doesn't know what they're talking about. Brooklyn confirms that Goliath has been with him the whole time. Well, if that wasn't Goliath they saw, then who was it?
8. In their helicopter, the mercenaries rendezvous with Sevarius at the abandoned oil rig platform. Sevarius is carrying a tranquilizer gun, which mystifies the lead mercenary. What's he gonna do, tranq the statue? The mercenaries open their hold, only to be confronted by THAILOG -- shock white hair, photo-negative colors, bad attitude, but otherwise a dead ringer for Goliath. (Incidentally, this is the last we'll ever see of these particular mercenaries.)
ACT TWO
9. Lex and Broadway have brought Goliath to the riverside location of the previous' night's "attack". They find a Gen-U-Tech tracking bracelet (like the one in "Metamorphosis"), right where "Goliath" had been standing. Lex wants to check out Gen-U-Tech. Goliath sends him and Broadway to do it, while he and Elisa look around for whoever or whatever that phony Goliath was.
10. Back at the Eyrie Building, Owen hands Xanatos the phone. The voice on the other end has been electronically altered beyond recognition, which doesn't prevent it from demanding a ransom for Thailog: $20 million in cash to be delivered to Oil Rig Platform #18 (or whatever). Owen tries to trace the call. No luck. But he can trace Platform #18. It doesn't belong to Demona, Macbeth or Renard. In fact, it belongs to Xanatos Enterprises. That's all Xanatos needs to hear. He can barely believe it, but Sevarius must have betrayed him. It all fits. Sevarius works for X.E. and he's the only other person who knew that Thailog existed. Xanatos hates to lose a talent like Sevarius, but he can't permit this kind of behavior from his employees. He's just going to have to make an example of Dr. Sevarius.
11. At Gen-U-Tech, Lex and Broadway break in. Lex has an idea. He types "C-L-O-N-E" into the computer and gets the scoop on Project Thailog.
12. Goliath and Elisa have been searching the area. They've looked everywhere and found nothing. Almost everywhere. Goliath points to the oil rig.
13. Xanatos, wearing a trench coat and carrying a suitcase, has taken a launch out to the oil rig. He is greeted warmly enough by Sevarius. He shows Sevarius the money. Sevarius: "What? Oh, the money. You know in all the excitement, I almost forgot about it. Actually, I've never seen that much money in one place. Mind if I take a peek?" And while he does, Xanatos removes his coat, to reveal that he is wearing armor. Thinner, lighter than his Gargoyle armor. Not as effective in a huge battle, but still formidable and obviously, easier to conceal. He grabs hold of Sevarius and explains, that although he's not by nature a vengeful man, Sevarius has forced him to make an exception.
14. Pull back to reveal, Goliath and Elisa watching all this from above. She wonders what could set Xanatos and Sevarius against each other? "Some new abomination they created together." They decide to take a look around.
15. Meanwhile, Sevarius is stunned at Xanatos' attack. What did he do wrong? Xanatos can't believe he's asking. Kidnapping, extortion, betrayal -- how's that for a start? Sevarius suddenly gets conspiratorial and whispers, "Oh, I get it. Somebody's watching us. Don't worry. I'll make it look good." Then he hams it up big time: "YES, I BETRAYED YOU!! YOU TOOK MY CREATION AWAY FROM ME!! IT WAS ONLY AN ACT OF JUSTICE TO STEAL IT BACK!!" And then he whispers to Xanatos, "How was that?"
16. Goliath and Elisa find Thailog chained up in an oil storage tank. Goliath is horrified. How can this be? Thailog explains very briefly that he is a clone of Goliath, created from his blood. Goliath feels violated and speaks rashly about the horrors of modern science and the evil of Xanatos and Sevarius. Thailog seems hurt and glowers angrily at Goliath. Elisa yanks Goliath aside. "Listen, you have a right to be angry, but you shouldn't take it out on Thailog. It's not his fault he was created. And however it happened, he's still a gargoyle. In a way, he's kind of your son. And you're rejecting him."
17. A very perplexed Xanatos is finally putting it together. Sevarius thinks this is all an act. Now Sevarius is confused. Isn't it an act? I only followed your instructions. What instructions? Sevarius had gotten instructions from Xanatos' office over electronic mail to do everything he had done. Far from betraying Xanatos, he had thought he was helping Xanatos in his latest Machiavellian scheme. Except Xanatos doesn't know anything about this. Who else has access to his personal computer? Sevarius: "Owen? Fox?" Xanatos: "Don't be ridiculous." "Well, has anyone else had access to the castle?" Xanatos thinks about it, and then... laughs.
18. Back in the oil tank, Goliath knows that Elisa is right. He goes to free Thailog. But Thailog says it won't be necessary. The shackles weren't locked. He grabs Goliath, puts him in a wrestling hold and slams a gas mask over Goliath's mouth and nose. Before Elisa can do anything but gasp, Goliath slumps unconscious in Thailog's arms. And Thailog laughs.
ACT THREE
19. Xanatos is still laughing. He's figured out that it was all Thailog's plan, and he's proud of his boy. Thailog comes out, smiling. And he's carrying a little bonus -- an unconscious Goliath and Elisa. (He took her out during the commercial.) Better and better. The kid is a real chip off the old block. "Yes, I am... All the old blocks." And he slaps an electro-disk onto Xanatos, shorting out his armor and knocking him unconscious. Screen goes black.
20. When Xanatos regains consciousness, he is chained next to Goliath, Sevarius and Elisa (in the oil tank maybe). Thailog enters with murder in mind. He's learned from all of his "proud fathers". But he has no intention of going through life as Sevarius' guinea pig or Xanatos' stooge. It's time to leave the nest. And twenty million should help him make his mark. Sevarius protests: How are you going to spend it? You can't exactly open a checking account. But Thailog has learned enough from Xanatos to know that with that much money, he can find a way to make it work for him. After all, he set all of them up without any cash incentives. Imagine what he could do with 20 mil? Goliath tells Thailog that he doesn't need the money. He can join the gargoyle clan. Thailog: "Do I look like a sap to you?" He has no desire to waste his time acting as guardian angel to a city full of ignorant humans. He had toyed with the idea of sharing the money with Goliath. That's why he had arranged for Goliath to join the party. But their little family reunion pissed Thailog off. "So I've decided to hate you too." He approaches Elisa, caresses her face. It seems like a waste, but she's going to have to die too. Nothing personal. He leaves, activating a death trap. (Maybe the oil tank starts filling with oil or something.) At any rate, the four work together to escape the trap. Though they set the rig on fire in the process.
21. Topside, they arrive just in time to stop Thailog from escaping with the cash. Thailog is furious that they've escaped. Big battle mostly between Thailog and Goliath. Broadway and Lex finally arrive but by this time the rig is about to collapse. Goliath tries one last attempt to reason with Thailog. They must escape. Thailog won't leave without the money. He goes after it, is caught in an explosion and apparently dies. Xanatos and Sevarius escape in Xanatos' launch. Broadway, Lex and Goliath leave with Elisa. They've survived. But at such a great cost. Goliath would like to blame Xanatos and Sevarius for corrupting Thailog. But all of Thailog's fathers hurt him. Goliath cannot exonerate himself.
22. Epilogue: One week later. Xanatos, Sevarius and Owen are talking about a brand new, more secure computer system. Price tag: just under $20 million. Xanatos chuckles at the irony, and then almost chokes on the chuckle. He suddenly realizes that if he had been in Thailog's shoes, he would have planned a contingency for their escape from his death trap. He would have faked his own death so that he could get away with the money. Sevarius: "You mean that monster's still out there. It has the money... and it's smarter than you?" Xanatos, dead serious: "Owen... I think I've created a monster."
Someone brought up the distinctive coloration of Thailog again, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. You both agree, basically, that the idea to give Thailog a unique 'color scheme' was a good one, because it nulled the possibility of Thailog and Goliath being mistaken for each other, a very bad cliche. If you'd kept Thailog looking identical and just NOT done that cliche, we the viewers would simply be waiting for it, so the coloration difference was the best way to actively put it to rest.
You ask what the rest of us think about the general direction you and the other writers took Thailog. I'd just like to say that IMHO you guys played him BRILLIANTLY. And I mean it. So many shows bring in clones seemingly just to screw with the hero's identity. But in GARGOYLES Thailog plays such a more profound role. He is Goliath, but with a different soul. And that is what makes him disturbing. Also, in most shows, the clone remains the instrument of his creator, until perhaps he eventually dies, either slain or martyred. But in GARGOYLES Thailog breaks free of his creators in his very first appearence. Right off the bat, Thailog makes it clear that he is his own character, and that although his origin is as a clone, that isn't the extent of his profile. He is something never seen before in science fiction: a clone who so well establishes himself that the description "clone of Goliath" just sounds ignorant and pitiful.
Wow. Thanks. I'm very glad it (all of it) worked for you.
Greg said:
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Shan responds:
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).
No biggie. Glad you're interested.
Why didn't Thailog and Demona clone Angela?
Demona didn't want a clone of Angela, she wanted Angela. So she never released a mosquito when Angela was guarding her cell. That meant that Thailog and Sevarius didn't have the option.
If Gargoyles are biologically inclined to take a monogamous mate (as well as traditionally) why is it so easy for Thailog to discard Demona?
Can a gargoyle have physical relations with more than one other gargoyle before the "imprint" sets in? Or does the "imprint" set in during the first full physical relationship?
Opportunistic programming allows Thailog to override certain impulses.
Generally, the latter.
Is the reason you created the clone's differn't skin, eyes and hair pigmintation, because you didn't want another cartoon where your trying to figure out which one is the real Goliath or Lexington? Or at least not overdue it since this happend latter with Proteus?
I liked Thailog's look. It was partially inspired by the changes that John Byrne made to the Fantastic Four's costumes in the eighties.
But yes. Though we played the beat for a couple of acts, I didn't want to do EVIL TWIN takes the place of the good guy and confuses everyone. Once Thailog was revealed, there wasn't any question as to who was who. Just seemed a more original take on the old clone idea. What do the rest of you think?
(And Proteus had nothing to do with it. At the time we were creating Thailog, I didn't yet know that I was going to insert The New Olympians into the Garg Universe.)
I now have a list of questions to for you about love. ahhh
1. Does Hyena love Jackel?
2. Does Jackel love Hyena?
3. How serius are Hyena's feelings to Cyotie? Is she madley im love with him, or just mildly attracted? Either way, it's kinda gross
4. How does Cyotie feel toward Hyena? He seemed up for they idea of "making sparks fly".
5. Does Fox love Anistasia(before and after the Gathering)?
6. Does Halcyen still carry a torch for Anistasia? And does he now know that she is Titania?
7. Does Titania love fox?
8. Does Puck love Alex?
9. Does Oberon love anyone besides Titania?
10. Does Dracon dream about Elisa and him being together?
11. Was Brooklyn attracted to Demona before "Temptation". He seems to go after the most females.
12. Does Iago feel in love with Desdemona, or is it a strong sexual attraction, or is it just to hurt Othello?
13. Was there a time when Desdemona had feelings toward Iago?
14. Does Vinnie have a special someone (besides himself), or does everyone think he is too wierd?
15. Has Thailog ever felt love, even in the slightest way?
16. Was Malcolm and Elaina's wedding more out of love, or convenience?
17. Do Banquo and Florence have a thing for each other?
18. Does Cagney have a special kitty friend, or just Elisa?
19. Has the Magus been yerning for Kathern all of his life, and never told her how he felt? If yes., thats pretty sad.
20. And, somewhere deep deep down, both Goliath and Demona both yern to again be one, now and forever. Right? I better be. And this would have been shown in latter episodes besides dark ages right?
I'm sure you can see from my questions that I am QUITE the softy. And I love how Gargoyles uses this topic so often. Great job!!!
Twenty Questions! YAY! :P
1. Sure, to the extent she knows how.
2. Ditto.
3. Something between madly in love and mildly attracted.
4. He's indifferent in the incarnations you've seen.
5. Yes.
6. Yes and Yes.
7. Of course.
8. Sure.
9. Yes. His children and his Children and the island of his birth and all the funny little mortals. He's a benificent one, that Oberon.
10. Probably.
11. I think Brooklyn respected Goliath too much to think that way, to allow himself to think that way.
12. The first two. The third is just a side benefit.
13. No.
14. He is currently available? You interested?
15. He's not admitting to it, unless he's lying.
16. Politics. And a hope of love.
17. They're exes.
18. That avenue has not yet been explored.
19. Not all his life. After all, he's ten years older than she is. But yes, it is sad.
20. I think somewhere deep, deep down Goliath wants to be with Elisa. And somewhere deep deep down, Demona wants to be with someone who is right for her.
This has both an apology and a question. Apparently you answered my recently posted question previously, to Aaron, some time ago. The problem is that I did not see Thailog's archive (somehow my eye missed it that time) and only one for the Clones. The answer I wanted was in Thailog's archive but not in the Clones archive. Therefore, I thought I was asking a new question.
But I've also figured out what bothers me about Goliath's "he is my son" response. If, as you said in your response to Aaron, Goliath feels responsible and wants to bring Thailog into the fold -- where he told Angela she should see the clan as her parents -- should Goliath have said instead "he is the clan's son" or "he is our son" (though THAT would have been odd, since he's talking to Elisa!).
Is that taking it personal attributable to Goliath's personality then? Would most Gargs have said "Thailog is the clan's son" or "He is of my blood. He is one of the clan"???
You're taking this stuff out of context, as you yourself indicates. The fact that he didn't semantically state it EXACTLY as you might wish he had, is unimportant. You get the idea.
Really, I think you're splitting hairs.
I just got done watching "Double Jeapordy," and in it Goliath emphasizes to Elisa that he must stay on the rig and talk to/rescue Thailog because "he is (of?) my blood. He is my son."
However, later on he meets his daughter Angela, but doesn't realize the connection at first. After Sevarius clues her in about her biological parents (Goliath and Demona) and Angela starts pressing the point with Goliath, Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan. It is not until Elisa's mother and Goliath have the heart to heart about children sometimes needing special attention that Goliath and Angela begin to bond more directly, if I'm not mistaken.
But with Thailog, Goliath wants to reach out and make a bond almost from the outset.
Is it the circumstances of Thailog's creation that make Goliath take more responsibility for Thailog from the get-go versus Angela, or is it (though certaintly not her fault) that the fact Angela is also Demona's child somehow alienates Goliath more at first? Is it something else entirely? I found the difference in attitudes striking.
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.
As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.
Later, he NEVER denies her as his child. He simply is uncomfortable with her focus on him as her biological father. This also mixes in guilt -- survivors guilt this time. And a healthy fear that if she responds this way to him being her biological father, then how will she respond when and if she learns that Demona is her biological mother. If she had simply been calling him father from the get go, he'd have had no problem. But she didn't until she got word from Sevarius about biology. That's what troubled him. She wasn't thinking like a gargoyle. When "Goliath responds with something to the effect that children belong to the whole clan" that's not just a means of putting her off, it's not just something to say. That's how he was raised. That means something to him.
In any case, the Thailog and Angela situations are so widely different, it's really comparing apples and oranges. But I certainly don't see any inconsistencies in Goliath's behaviour.
Reckoning:
1)At the fun house, when Goliath goes for help, why dosn't he bring Claw and Maggie. I know it's a pretty dumb question, but hey.
2a)Does Sevarius still work at Gen-u-tec, as well as at Nighstone. Does he still work for Xanatos, or do Xanatos new priorities require letting Sevarius go. b)Would Sevarius make somthing like Thailog ever agian? Was he as scared by him as Xanatos was? c) Is Thailog on much better terms with his father Sevarius, or would he still like to kill him if he lost his usefullness?
1. He doesn't have time to stop by BOTH the Clock Tower and the Labyrinth. If you were Goliath, where would you go? (Keep in mind that neither Claw or Maggie are really 'warriors born'.)
2a. As of when?
2b. Sevarius is not too big on common sense, I think.
2c. Thailog's not on great terms with any of his fathers.
I must confess that one thing that surprises me a little about Demona is how long it took her to realize the truth about Thailog. After all, we're dealing here with a gargoyle who prides herself on not trusting anyone, who's utterly and thoroughly suspicious about everyone. And Thailog strikes me as being about as thoroughly untrustworthy as they come. But the interesting thing is that Demona doesn't seem to suspect that Thailog is an unreliable ally until he finally comes out and says it in "The Reckoning" with his "I've decided to: a) kill your daughter, and b) dump you in favor of a clone that I made of you, who, by the way, is also a part-clone of Elisa." Of course, the guy is thoroughly cunning (I particularly noted how, in "Sanctuary", he cleverly drew attention away from himself after Macbeth blasts his way to freedom with the laser gun that Thailog slipped him by shouting at Demona "Didn't you search him?"), and as Macbeth himself admitted when Angela raised the same question at the end of "Sanctuary", love can be blind. But I do find it intriguing that Demona was so thoroughly duped by Thailog for so long (though it has a certain appropriateness to it).
I find it appropriate to. Indicative of her desire to be with someone who she could believe shared her worldview. (It has little to do with Thailog personally, I think -- and more to do with his resemblence to Goliath and yet the obvious contrast in his personality.)
But my question to you is what would you think could have possibly given Thailog away to Demona, before he was ready to drop his facade?
I don't know why I'm bothering to ask this, but just in case you're in a generous mood:
1a) Does Thailog ever find a mate (other than Demona, if you could call them mates)? b) Which race is she/he? (New Olympian, human, Child of Oberon, gargoyle, etc)?
2a) Does Hollywood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
3a) Does Burbank ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
4a) Does Brentwood ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
5a) Does Malibu ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
6a) Does Claw ever find a mate? b) Which race is she/he?
7) Which race is Delilah's mate?
8) Which race is Lex's mate?
9) Will the Labyrinth clan have any gargoyle beasts by 2198?
1-8. I'm not revealing any of this at this time, though I will say that at least some will find mates.
9. Yes.
How did Thailog get that armor? Was it tailor made?
He spent money. The logistics don't interest me too much. I'm sure it was made to his precise specifications, however.
I know we've spent a lot time talking about Demona's motivations, but what of Thailog's. I'm guessing a desire to prove his own legitamacy in light of his unique origins and the long shadow cast by his fathers, especially Goliath.
One thing that never made complete since to me though was why he turned on Demona. There can't be that many Gargoyles who would ally themselves with his "unique slant on things." Clones are fine but Thailog initially relegated them to the status of servile drones. Was it that Demona was a loose canon. Was he simply bored with her? Finally it occured to me that if he is trying to prove himself to be a better Gargoyle,by his own defintion, tthen Demona might very well seem like a "hand me down." Or perhaps, he realized that Demona saw him not as "Thailog", but as a Goliath substitute. Talk about a blow to your self worth!
All very interesting observations. Lot of truth there.
I think you may be right about Demona, but you're also leaving his attraction (for whatever reason) to Elisa out of the equation.
And you may be giving the long shadow of Goliath too much credit. I tend to think Xanatos was the bigger influence and the longer shadow.
But it all sounds smart to me. (Except the "bored with her" part. Demona is many things, but never boring.)
I'd have to say that my favorite "off camera" moment for the series would have been Demona 1st encounter with Thailog. I know it wasn't necessary to show it, but such moments exist shearly for the look of shock and surprise you see on peoples faces. Had you actually imagined how it transpired? For, example, die Demona mistake Thailog for Goliath? Did Thailog get the drop on Demona first? Would have been a classic moment. Possibly the perfect counter point to "The Kiss".
It'll make a good flashback some day.
What are the names of the clones clan?
thanks!
You mean the names of the clones or the name of their clan?
Anyway, as of 1996, when one might argue the Labyrinth Clan was founded, the cloned gargs included Hollywood, Brentwood, Malibu, Burbank and Delilah. There were also Mutates down there: Talon, Maggie the Cat, Claw and an imprisoned Fang. And a number of homeless humans who had found a home beneath.
Thailog's also a clone, but he wasn't exactly part of this clan.
ok, now a few questions about "The Reckoning"...
1. did Demona keep a "mosquito" in her belt buckle for each gargoyle or just Lexington?
2. did she and Thailog plan to get Elisa's DNA together or was everything about Delilah a secreat from Demona? what i mean is, did Demona plan on getting Elisa's DNA or not?
3. TGC episode "Genesis Undone" is not canon, and you've said that Thailog had not died in the fire, is that right? if so, would he have suffered any major lasting injuries from the fire? if he did survive, why did he let Demona go on running Nightstone Unlimited even though some of it belonged to him?
4. i'm guessing Fang went back to his cell, correct?
5. if Sevarius could so easily combine human and gargoyle DNA to make Delilah, why not mix and match different gargoyle DNA for a bit of diversity? or did he? i've noticed that the four main clones seem to have combinations of different gargs. for instance, Hudson's clone looks mostly like Hudson, but has Lex's coloring, and Brooklyn's clone looks mostly like Brooklyn, but has Broadway's coloring and fanned ears. was there mixing going on?
1. More than one for each.
2. Not.
3. He was laying low.
4. For a bit.
5. No. The coloring changes were a result of the forced aging. The same thing that caused Thailog's coloring to be different from Goliath's.
Hey:
1) Does Burbank have a bad eye like Hudson?
2) Does Burbank,(after adjusting to making his own choices) like the same activities as Hudson?
3) Whose idea was it to make the clones? I don't mean YOU I mean Demona or Thailog. I mean I am sure that making clones is a very expensive and time consuming endevour and it seems odd to think Demona would be happy to have clones of the clan she hates. Of course Demona doesn't exactly think things out very well....
1. No.
2. Not necessarily.
3. Thailog's initially. But Demona didn't resist the idea.
I'm probably thinking too human on this, but there is one thing that has always bugged me.
Goliath takes such issue to being Angela's parent, but he was ready to adopt Thailog as his son?
I presume he meant in the rookery father sense, although the language seemed a bit off. Maybe because I'd regard a clone, particularily one who was as physically mature as me, as a brother rather then a son. But again, that's just me.
Adopt is a strong word. He simply was ready to take responsibility and try to bring him into the fold, in the rookery sense.
Cary Bates agreed with you. Wanted to view Thailog as a brother, not a son. But that didn't match up either with the biology or with Goliath's mindset. At least not in my mind.
Did Demona and Thailog "mate" as in reproduce? That was what I meant by mate.
No. Timing wasn't right.
how long had Demona and Thailog been a couple when Goliath arrived in Paris? how long had Demona and Macbeth been in Paris?
The following dates are tentative, based on my current reworking of the timeline -- still a rework in progress.
Demona and Macbeth arrived in Paris on 1-1-96.
Demona first encountered Thailog on 1-2-96.
Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx arrived in Paris on 1-21-96.
If Demona had never "turned on" Thailog as she did in THE RECKONING, what would he have done with Delilah?
Frankly, he'd have kept her around. On the sly.
In "Double Jeopardy" Sevarius implied that Thailog's odd skin and hair color was due to the "artificial maturation rate". That said, would Thailog have been the same color as Goliath if he had been allowed to age "naturally"?
Yes.
Did Thailog turn to stone during the day when he was in his growth tank?
Yes.
Delilah is a Human/Gargoyle hybrid but she seems to be more of a combination of Demona and Elisa as a garg as she was seen in "The Mirror". given that we've seen only one episode with Delilah but why does she seem totally garg without any human characteristics?
That's arguable. And I don't feel like arguing write now.
Largely, Thailog wanted a garg mate, but he wanted her to be visually reminiscent of Elisa.
Did Demona mate with Thailog?
What do you mean by "mate"?
is it possible that Demona could lay an egg every twenty years since she is biologically a middle aged garg and (probably) still responds to those Earth rythm things? do gargs mate any time they want or only every twenty years? did Demona have sex with Thailog? sorry about the vulgar questions... :)
Gargoyles potentially have sexual relations more often than once every twenty years. Fertility and lust are two separate issues, not that they are mutually exclusive either.
In theory, Demona could lay an egg every twenty years, assuming she had a mate who mated with her when she was fertile. That hasn't been the case.
As to Thailog, to be blunt, the answer is almost certainly yes. But they broke up years before Demona would be fertile again.
Angela is genetically Thailog's daughter too, correct. now, i realize these are wierd circumstances but wouldn't he feel some sort of kinship to her or at least have feigned it to avoid a conflict with Demona? I just don't understand why he wanted to kill her so badly or at least why her death should come before the others. demona said that, "She belongs to me!" why didn't Thailog just let Demona keep Angela chained up, it would have saved him alot of trouble, really.
I agree with your last statement.
But I don't think Thailog views Angela as a daughter at all.
And keep in mind that from Thailog's point of view, Demona had weeks to turn the girl and failed. Now he wanted to test Demona. And maybe he was more than ready to replace her with Delilah.
You've said that Xanatos basically stopped trying to make his own gargoyles after Thailog because Thailog scared him. For what reasons is Xanatos scared by Thailog?
As Owen pointed out, Thailog was stronger and smarter than Xanatos. His creation, no longer under HIS control.
Scares me, anyway.
Hmm, one more question I think. . .
I've been curious about Thailog lately, and I'm not sure if it's a subject that has really been covered. I know you've said before that you don't have any immediate plans for making him an ally for the clan. But what about later in the future? Does he have any inner struggles or regrets that could later humble him? Or is he plain and simply just flat out evil? I have a hard time believing in true evil unless you're someone like the devil - whose name I HATE to mention. And likewise, I have a hard time seeing him as purely evil. . . . but maybe that's just me.
Is there anything that you could tell us that might suggest a change of heart in Thailog maybe a season or two - if ever - before he dies - again if ever -? Probably a touchy subject, but I just thought I'ld ask.
He's amoral and twisted. But "pure evil" isn't really the way I think of him.
That's all I'll say now.
I am curious... I know Xanatos *programmed* Thailog. But is that just a way of saying that he thaugh him everything or does it really mean that Thailog can be *programmed* with a computer or something.
I just don't understand the concept.
Thank you
Specific information was forcefed to Thailog while he was still in his maturation chamber. The choice of info and the spin put on that info, was Xanatos'.
This is a comment inspired by your recent answers to the "Tempest" question. While you never did manage to get "The Tempest" into Gargoyles outright (and I found that a pity, for my own part), I've sometimes thought that Angela does resemble Miranda a little (in the same way that, to me, Thailog resembles Edmund in "King Lear" and Demona Shylock) - there's the same general concept there of a sweet, innocent girl being brought up on a mysterious magical island and filled with wonder at the outside world (Miranda's "brave new world" lines strike me as being just as suitable for Angela as they were for the original speaker). I just thought that you might be interested.
Yeah. Angela/Miranda. That's there. But I won't pretend I was conscious of it. But like with Thailog/Edmund, the play is such an intrinsic part of my consciousness and education, I'm sure I was influenced by it.
At the end of "Double Jeopardy", Xanatos comments about Goliath and Thailog, "I should have known that no copy could ever live up to the original." What I found interesting about that remark is that Thailog was the last attempt that Xanatos made to create "his own gargoyles". After that, he made no new efforts to come up with "gargoyle-substitutes" - he used the already-made Steel Clan robots in a few cases, and he also welcomed the Mutates' services when they came back to work for him in "The Cage", but he did not come up with brand-new schemes of that sort. Did this remark of Xanatos's above indeed indicate the end of that particular strategy on his part?
Yep. Also, I think for once he was chastened. Thailog scared him a bit.
How did you or one of your fellow creators come up with the idea for Thailog's name? I realize it is Goliath spelled pretty much backwards.
I was at a sound mix session for the edited version of AWAKENING. We kept playing scenes over and over to make sure the sound was right. We'd listen to it and then rewind to listen again. I kept hearing the word "Thailog" over and over and over again. It was driving me nuts. Finally, I realized it was "Goliath" SAID (not spelled) backwards. Right then and there, I came up with the idea for Goliath's evil clone. I knew what he looked like (inspired somewhat -- believe it or not -- by what John Byrne did to the Fantastic Four's costumes after their trip to the Negative Zone and by Darkwing Duck's nemesis NegaDuck) and I knew where he'd come from and I knew what he'd be named: THAILOG. It just sounded so great.
Hi, Greg! I have a quick question for you -- why did Avalon send Demona and MacBeth to Paris? Goliath, Angela, Elisa, and Bronx were sent to Paris because of Demona and MacBeth. So, why were Demona and MacBeth there? Thanks!! :)
Thailog. And a need for them to confront each other one more time.
Ok, let me cut my question into smaller bits (again, based on your revelation that "Thailog/Deliah wasn't over from my POV"). 1a) What exactly were you implying by the above statement? 1b) What is the nature of the Thailog/Delilah interaction you are implying in the above statement? 2) Will Thailog and Delilah resume their prior relationship? 3) When will the encounter/relationship implied by your statement occur (a general idea of the time, if possible, in relation to other events in the show (ie: several months after Hunter's Moon)). 4) How long will this encounter/relationship last? 5a) What would be Delilah's level of intelligence during this encounter/relationship with Thailog? 5b) How far would she have advanced beyond her original programming at the time of this encounter (or at the beginning of it, if it lasts any significant period of time)? 6) Was Delilah's attraction to Thailog that we saw in "The Reckoning", entirely a product of her programming, or was there something more? 7a) Is Thailog capable of true love? 7b) If the answer to 7a is yes, is he willing to admit/express these feelings, or will he deny them as Xanatos did until the end of "Eye of the Beholder"? 8) Considering how much of Xanatos's way of thinking was programmed into him, how concerned with immortality *is* Thailog?
1a. That their story hadn't ended.
1b. I'm not telling now.
2. Not exactly.
3. Don't have it nailed down with that kind of precision.
4. Not telling.
5a. Her intelligence has never been in question.
5b. Don't know.
6. All of the above.
7a. Everyone's capable. Doesn't mean everyone allows it to happen.
7b. Depends.
8. Less.
Do you think because the Way Thailog acts twoards Elisa if she was in trouble and he was there would he save her? Thank you sir
If he thought he could use her.
(Hypothetical questions make me uncomfortable. Everything is situational.)
Does Elisa feel uncomfortable when Thailog is around?
Does Goliath feel uncomfortable when Thailog is around when Elisa is around?
EX: In " Double Jeopardy" When Thailog was talking about/to Elisa.
Thanks THats all For Now
Thank YOU
1. Well, she doesn't feel cudly.
2. He's a villain who could put her at risk. What do you think?
Did Demona ever actually love Thailog? My impression was that she went to him because he was a sort of Goliath with her goals. I always thought that in her heart, Demona still loves Goliath, but her obsession with denying her guilt was so great that she could not allow herself to care for him. Is this at all correct?
More or less.
Though what she convinced herself of and what was true may have been two different things.
Hi mr. Weisman!
In Metamorphosis, why Xanatos didn't provided Goliath's DNA to Sevarius?
Thanks!
He had already. That was a lie to help fool Derek. Thailog was already in the works.
Today you revealed that "Thailog/Delilah wasn't over from my POV". Were you planning on having them get back together early on, before Delilah became educated and understood that Thaylog was trouble? (In other words, she would go to him because she was still controlled by her programming and not because Thaylog won her affection legitimately?)
You're question makes so many assumptions, there's no way for me to answer it simply. And I'm not prepared to go into the ENTIRE story here. Try breaking the question down a bit and resubmitting it.
At any rate, it's not as simple as your alternatives suggest.
I'd like to apologize ahead of time if this question has been asked but I checked the archives and I couldn't find it. Soooo...
Would Jon Canmore/Castaway keep trying to kill Demona if he found out she was immortal, since he seems to be VERY hell bent on killing her? Would he refuse to believe it, and try anyway?
He'd keep trying. But he's sophisticated enough to try methods that he felt had at least a chance of working. These methods would depend on what he knows at any given time. But, hell, Thailog found a way. ("Sanctuary") He failed, but he found a way. If he can do it, so can someone else.
As promised, I'll now attempt to recreate the lost ramble on this episode, which I recently watched again with my family.
For those of you who haven't seen it, I refer you to my recently posted "Memo" on this episode dated back in April of 1994. One thing you might have noticed was that the title of the episode was "The Awakening". In the memo, I suggested what I thought was the more appropriate title "Reawakening". Michael liked that idea but had a suggestion that did it one better. He suggested renaming our pilot five-parter "Awakening". I jumped at the idea. At the time, the five-parter was simply titled "Gargoyles, Part One", "Gargoyles, Part Two", etc. I've never liked that sort of cop out where the pilot's title is simply the series' title. Among other things, it lacks imagination. And it's dishonest. By that standard, "The Journey"'s real title should have been "Gargoyles, Part Sixty-Six". So giving our pilot its own title seemed like a very good idea to me.
But there was another reason why I liked Michael's plan. We were working on our last episode of the first season. It was April of 1994, nearly a year before that episode would air. And a good six months before our premiere. There was no way of knowing whether or not there would ever be a SECOND season. And so to protect myself (emotionally) I had to operate on the assumption that their might not be. Obviously, I wasn't going to do anything apocalyptic. I wanted there to be a second season, so I wanted to leave the doorway open for it. So Michael, Frank, Brynne and I discussed the idea of open-ended closure. If there never was a second season, we'd go out with a bang. We'd give some small amount of closure to our characters. Let them reach a turning point. If this was to be it, we'd have created a little 13 episode novel that brought the Gargoyles from the past to the present and renewed (reawakened) their sense of purpose.
Nice. We'd done the open-ended closure thing (to a lesser degree) at the end of what would eventually be called "Awakening, Part Five" and we'd eventually do it again at the end of "Hunter's Moon, Part Three". And I'd do it for myself in my script for "The Journey".
But there are tricks to achieving a sense of closure. And one of the tricks is to create parallels with the episodes that launched your story.
So by retro-titling our pilot "Awakening" and naming our last ep "RE-Awakening" you can see how we gave ourselves a headstart.
But there were other parallels. The flashback to the past, (which we intentionally built so that it could theoretically be edited into the pilot if necessary) included the Magus at his most pre-Avalon obnoxious. Obviously, that flashback also intro'd pre-Coldstone, but it served the purpose of calling those first couple of flashback episodes clearly into the viewers' minds. (The only problem with that scene, is that Hudson has his sword in a couple of the shots. This is a mistake, as any good Garg fan knows that Hudson first acquired his sword in the battle with the Vikings that took place the following night.)
We also did the big event VILLAIN TEAM-UP thing, bringing Xanatos and Demona back together for the first time since "Awakening, Part Five". (I love the exquisite tension that plays between them. They are both SO using each other. When Demona tells Coldstone that X is her servant, you know that she's partly doing that to circumvent Coldstone's questions, but that she also partly believes that it's true.)
We also used Morgan in Times Square in a very similar way to how he was used in "Awakening, Part One" (reiterated in "Awakening, Part Two").
And then there's that moment near the end where Elisa asks Goliath if there's anything he needs. He answers "A Detective" verbally echoing a key moment from their first meeting in "Awakening, Part Three". That still tickles me.
HOMAGE
Obviously, Frank and I both worked overtime to pay homage to the classic Universal "FRANKENSTEIN" movie. I can say "pay homage" with a straight face (as opposed to rip off) because we so clearly acknowledged the source. Frank's art direction of the lab. X's line: "It's alive! Alive!" (Wonderfully undercut by Jonathan Frakes' reading of the follow-up "I've always wanted to say that.") And the whole idea behind Coldstone. (More on this when I eventually ramble on "Legion".)
Coldstone would be our Frankenstein's monster. Pieced together. Gargoyle & Machine. Reanimated (reawakened). I even love the Coldstone name. And wasn't Michael Dorn's sepulchral tones just perfect for the role?
And Goliath's reaction is so multi-faceted, so Dr. Frankenstein... [You know Goliath's response to his brother here, would be echoed later in his response to his "son" Thailog in "Double Jeopardy". Initially, Goliath's simply repulsed by what he sees, calling Coldstone "an abomination". But given a bit of time, Goliath quickly sees past appearances and attempts whole-heartedly to save his brother. He'll go through the same changes with Thailog. Well... at least we (and Goliath) were consistent.]
CONTINUITY
Snow. It started snowing in "Her Brother's Keeper" and now the city is blanketed in the stuff. (And doesn't Elisa look cute in her scarf and gloves.)
Brooklyn's still pissed off at Demona, specifically and sarcastically asking if she has anymore "spells to save you now". In fact, we wanted to make clear that the spell used to resurrect (reawaken) Coldstone was one of the spells she tore out of the Grimorum in "Temptation". Instead, we cheated a bit. By having her tell Xanatos that the "Cantrips have already been spoken" it saved us the trouble of getting another spell translated into Latin. We were either lazy or short on time or -- most likely -- both.
Following out of "The Edge", and until the helmet comes off at the bridge, the gargs assume that Xanatos in his armor is simply another Steel Clan Robot. The next upgrade. The red model. They have no idea it's actually Xanatos himself in armor.
Small observation: Mirrors don't fare too well in the Gargoyles Universe.
Emotionally, I think the story is very successful at taking the audience through Goliath's spiritual reawakening. I love how he starts out pensive and brooding, listening to that great exchange between the trio and Hudson, realizing that all of them have lost track of their true purpose. Hudson recites the Gargoyle credo merely as an excuse not to go out in the cold. (And I love Thom's reading on Lex's "We don't even live in a castle anymore" response.) The trio are clearly missing the point, but methodical thinker Goliath isn't sure he remembers what the point is either.
And that dovetails SO nicely with Elisa revealing the Police motto "Protect and Serve". The police motto/gargoyle credo connection is so perfect, it struck me even at the time as further proof that we were tapping into something very true in our little fictions. (And don't cops -- for better and sometimes for worse -- act just like a clan?)
From there, Goliath moves past the notion of simply being a reactive character, struggling only to SURVIVE one crisis after another. Now he will strive to be proactive. To rededicate (reawaken) the clan toward their original life purpose. Extending the term "castle" to Manhattan island was always our plan. Even that was intentionally primitive in our view. Goliath doesn't protect New York City. Not all five burroughs anyway. That's beyond his medieval scope at this still-early stage. He can get his head around protecting an island surrounded by water. Not the whole world. But eventually, the plan would include expanding the clan's definition until Castle Earth was the only thing that made sense. Of course, that might not have been fully realized until 2158. But we'd have gotten there. And the World Tour was part of that process too.
PROBLEMS
(Besides Hudson's sword...)
--One line in the ep. that for some reason still makes me cringe is Elisa's "My car's big." It just seems awkward to me. Not sure why.
X & D watch Coldstone's progress from the castle. Almost instantaneously they're at Times Square. We always knew we were just skating by on that.
Goliath & Coldstone go into the water at the bridge TWICE within the span of a couple of minutes or so. The first time, Goliath nearly drowns. The second time he's completely uneffected (physically) by the experience. We get away with it because the second time he's diving in on purpose. But just the fact that we had to dunk them both twice is an awkward construction (and my fault). At least, Goliath looks good with wet hair.
Some really graceful animation here. Goliath has some great moves, and I love that moment when Matt and especially Elisa are diving into the snow, out of the way of the car that Coldstone has just thrown... And speaking of that scene...
TIMES SQUARE SEQUENCE
There's some very interesting, fun stuff here besides what I've already mentioned about it above. A sampling:
Explosions in Bambi. :)
Demona's Clan: Herself, Coldstone, a Steel Clan Robot and Xanatos in Gargoyle Battle Armor. It's so twisted. I love it.
Goliath's very smart here. He doesn't want the fight to take place in public and basically convinces Xanatos to take his side on the issue by flattering him. Goliath refers to Manhattan as "your city" (i.e. Xanatos' city), this despite the obvious fact that Goliath does NOT regard Manhattan as Xanatos' personal property. And Xanatos, usually immune to such stuff, falls for it -- maybe BECAUSE it comes from the ultra-sincere Goliath.
I also am very fond of the Mr. Jaffe book-ends. I think they're a lot of fun. And I love how Matt talks about Mr. Jaffe. It gives us insight into Matt's character, his background, his youth. His empathy for Jaffe really helps humanize him. Matt was always eminently human.
Signing off now...
"Because six monsters just told me to..."
What was Thailog thinking when he turned on Demona? He can't kill her and after all the quality time he'd spent with
her, he has to know that she can carry a grudge for centuries.
I think Thailog perceived Demona as the kind of loose cannon that he ultimately had to eliminate one way or another. If that meant chaining her in a funhouse basement, so be it.
Greg,
Did you think about expanding the Thailog/Delilah relationship beyond the master/slave idea?? After all, combining Demona's and Elisa's DNA had to make Delilah more inteligent than Thailog realized. It just seems that since Xanatos has Fox, Thailog may need/want a Delilah. A father like son situation.
Thailog/Delilah wasn't over from my POV.
Hello, Greg. Quick question -- what exactly does Demona's company "Nightstone Unlimited" do? Does she just use it to hire people to do her dirty work? Thanks!
It's into a lot of things, attempting to compete with the likes of Xanatos Enterprises and Cyberbiotics.
From what I understand Avalon sent Macbeth and Demona to Paris because Thailog was already there. But why had Thailog decided to go to Paris? What was he doing there before he met Demona?
Setting up Nightstone and enjoying the City of Lights.
Hi Greg! #1) Are any of the Labirynth clones going to have children? #2) Will Thailog? Thanks!
1. Yes.
2. Good question.
I noticed recently that there are several recurring names in the series. For instance, Peter Maza and Petros Xanatos have similar first names (both mean "rock", right?). Also, Thailog's chosen first name during "Sanctuary" was Alexander, the same name the Xanatos' named their baby. If you want to go a little on a limb, their's even a name connection between Alex, the baby, and Lexington, or Lex, the gargoyle. Is all this coincedental, planned, or a fluke?
And if it was planned, what were the reasons for it?
The Peter/Petros thing was something that I planned that wound up being a fluke. Petros was my original name for Petros, but somehow in the script for "VOWS" the writer chose another name. (My memory on this is very vague.) At the recording session, someone had an objection to the new name. (It wasn't me.) But since there was a desire to switch, I piped up with Petros again.
The Alexanders was semi-planned. That is when it came time for Thailog to choose a name, I couldn't think of anything else he would choose besides Alexander. Same for Fox & David. Nothing else worked. (Nothing I could think of anyway.) Obviously, I was aware that both Thailog and the Xanatos' were choosing the same name. But I liked that. Made perfect sense to me, since Xanatos programmed Thailog.
As for the Lex/Alex thing, well that is more of a fluke. Not that I was unaware of it. But it just worked out that way.
Did Demona like Thailog because he was what she wanted Goliath to be like? I mean, he practically was Goliath genetically, but he was bad. Thanks, Greg!
I think that was part of the equation. A large part. Though I doubt, Demona would have thought of the Thailog of that time as being "bad". Though Thailog might not have minded, as long as you said he was "very bad."
Does Thailog have an Oedipus complex? I mean, the combination of his effort to kill his "fathers" (Goliath, Xanatos, and Sevarius), and his choosing for a mate first Demona (Goliath's original mate) and then Delilah (a combination of Demona and Elisa, Goliath's past and future mates, with this feature being his idea) does get me wondering whether he could have such a feature.
That's a fair assessment.
Yeah, Todd, the archetype of the Bastard (particularly the more villainous Edmund version) was definitely running around my head when Cary and I created Thailog.
I recall that Cary was thinking of Thailog in more evil twin mode. As Goliath's brother (after a fashion). This was a legitimate approach, but I guided him toward making Goliath and Thailog into father/son figures. And by throwing in Xanatos and Sevarius as father-figures as well, I was hitting the Bastard idea head on.
After all, who is Theseus' father? Aegeus or Poseidon? Both had "intercourse" with Theseus' mother. Both claimed Theseus as his son. And Theseus was smart enough not to disagree with either.
(Though in his heart, I think Theseus' true "father-figure" was his maternal Grandfather.)
When Thailog reappeared in TGC, he had as a result of the rollercoaster fire a damaged left hand. But what damage did you intend him to have as a result of that fire? Was it to be of the same extent as TGC did, or did you intend for it to be worse, or did you intend for there to be no physical damage whatsoever?
I wasn't planning any long-term damage -- not with his healing factor. BUT PLEASE stop asking me questions in the context of TGC. It makes me very uncomfortable.
In the time the clones have been living with Talon in the Labyrinth, have they evolved at all beyond their programming or would they run back and "Obey Thailog" at the drop of a hat if they saw him?
That would make the premise of a good story don't you think?
At any rate, that was my plan.
Hello there, Greg--was wondering two things.
First-- How did the Childern of Oberon come into existance?
Second--Why did Golith tell Elisa that Thailog was his son in the ep "Double Jeapordy". Did he do it out of concern for him or guilt?
1. Incubated magic. Evolution. God. CHOOSE YOUR POISON.
Sorry, as per the new rules, you'll have to resubmit question #2. I hope you do. (Though if you watch the episode again, you won't need to.)
Me again! Since I tend to think up questions one at atime, your request is one I can easily handle! Anyway:
1. Does Thailog have a certain attraction to Elisa? His behavior in "Double Jeopardy" and "The Reckoning" Seem to indicate this (the way he speaks and acts toward her in "Double Jeopardy" and the fact that he mixed her DNA with Demona's instead of making a ordinary clone of Demona to create Delilah in "The Reckoning"). If he does, is it because of the fact that he was created with Goliath's DNA? Or does he just naturally find something about her attractive?
Thailog clearly finds Elisa attractive.
Now as to the cause....
Well you could attribute it to Goliath's DNA. But that sounds extremely unlikely as Goliath wasn't physically attracted to Elisa until he saw her transformed into a Gargoyle in "The Mirror".
So you either have to attribute it to some facet or facets of Xanatos' programming...
Or to the knowledge of Goliath's feelings for Elisa.
Or both.
Or something else.
1. What would be Katana and Nashville's reaction to Malibu?
2. Do you have designs in mind for Katana, Nashville, Tachi, Fudog, and Hudson's mate? If so, could you describe them?
3. You said that Brooklyn ended up with Mary and Finella in the 1970's. So doesn't that mean that they would still be alive today?
4. Why did you say that Shakespeare's MACBETH would amuse Macbeth? It portrays Gruoch as a Princess of Darkness. How can he take pleasure in that?
5. In what era did Demona arrive in America (Colonial, Antebellum, Reconstruction, etc)?
6. In what era did Macbeth arrive in America (Colonial, Antebellum, Reconstruction, etc)?
7. Now that Renard knows the truth about Anastasia, has it changed anything for him in terms of his feelings for her?
8. Considering that after all is said and done, Goliath was raised and lived most of his life in the 10th century, what is his stand on capital punishment?
9. What are the feelings of the Trio about the Magus and Katharine, considering that they only knew them before they changed, and have never seen their redemption, only heard of it?
10. What are the Mutates feelings about the Gargoyles now living in the castle?
11. Any news on the movie?
12. If you had done BAD GUYS, would Macbeth and/or Demona have appeared?
13. Why didn't anyone ever figure out that Gilcomgain was the Hunter? He has slash marks on his face that match the one's on the mask.
14. Broadway's blindness in FUTURE TENSE, was it just Puck playing with Goliath's sanity AND a prophecy or was it only just Puck playing with Goliath's mind?
15. If the show ever did come back, would you ever bring up or try to make clearer that the people Demona smashed in CITY OF STONE were truly dead?
16. You said that Demona would find love again. But what about Macbeth? Would he have found love again?
17. How rich would you classify Xanatos, Demona, Macbeth, and Post-RECKONING Thailog (Mildly rich, extremely rich, stinking rich, beyond the reach of ordinary people rich)?
18. What did the Mutates do with Sevarious' potion from THE CAGE?
19. Would you have shown us some of Fang's past and also some of his family if BAD GUYS had been done?
20. Can you give us a clue, where in the world, which hemisphere, which continent, where ever, is Coldstone and Coldfire's new clan going to be?
21. What was the name of Xanatos' mother and when did she die?
22. You said you haven't come up with real names for Jackal and Hyena. But do you have anything in mind?
23. Does Macbeth know about the Illuminati?
24. Does the Illuminati know about Macbeth?
25. Would we have seen some of Lexington's descendants in GARGOYLES 2158?
1. That would depend on the circumstances of their introduction, don't you think?
2. I've dealt with this recently. I do have a fairly clear idea about Fu Dog. But I'm not going to pin myself down at this point.
3. Doesn't preclude the possibility.
4. It has a lot to do with Mac's relationship to Will.
5. In the immortal words of my Magic Eightball: "Try Again Later".
6. Which time?
7. What exactly does he know?
8. He probably has little trouble with it but feels that in an ideal world (which he knows this is not) it's a less than stellar solution. Of course, that's all very theoretical. In practice, we've seen how he responds.
9. Distanced.
10. The Mutates aren't a monolith.
11. Nothing new, since I last answered.
12. Maybe, eventually, but not in my immediate plans.
13. Dramatic license? Or.... There were a lot of people with similar scars running around Scotland back then. Yeah. That's the ticket.
14. You didn't really think I'd answer that, did you?
15. You mean go out of my way to cover that?
16. Sure. Why not? (I'm such an old softy.)
17. Xanatos is Beyond the Reach rich. Macbeth is just stinking rich. Demona's extremely rich. Thailog's just rich.
18. Maggie saved it.
19. Yes.
20. Huh?
21. Not saying now.
22. Jack and Hanna. (Just kidding.) (Unless, I decide that those names really amuse me.)
23. Not saying.
24. Not saying.
25. Not saying.
Hi there Greg... welcome back! Lemme jump right on in:
1) Ok, we know that demona felt love for thailog (or at least as much love as she's able to feel), however, what exactly were Thailog's feelings for her? Was he really only using her for money and (I'm assuming sex also)? Or did he ever feel genuine that was something close to love?
2) What are Delilah's true feelings towards Thailog? i mean, does she Love him (or even really like him?) or is she only following her programing?
1. Gotta say that Thailog doesn't get the whole "love" concept yet. Not exactly programmed for it, and nothing in his experience has taught him that lesson. It's easy to forget that he was practically born yesterday.
2. Delilah was born even closer to yesterday than Thailog. Asking her to distinguish between her true feelings and her programming at this early stage in her development (i.e. at the time of "The Reckoning") is tough.
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