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Charles writes...
just reading your lighthouse ramble
I was myself surprsied, and continue to be, at the same moment your daughter was, being the scene where Macbeth says he will test Merlin's magic on Broadway. It felt out of character. Even disregarding what we were to later know of him, up to this point he doesn't seem to be the same type of ruthless villain as Demona or Xanatos. He has already gained that grey shading of character and it is hard to get a handle on his exact motives, but it felt to me he was already established to be very interested in concepts of honor and wouldn't stoop to such actions as using a sentient being as a lab rat, especially after he'd given his word. It's not honorable.
After later episodes and more background is given on him, his behavior in this episode just feels even more out of character. It becomes established that he is a man of deep honor, and while he doesn't act altruistically, like the gargoyles, he doesn't act nefariously either. He acts in his own best interests, but within limits. His saying he'd test Merlin's magic on Broadway is teh equivalent of Xanatos about to test the Cauldron of Life on Hudson, but this just doesn't feel right in my understanding of Macbeth. Such an action is a depth I don't see him willing to take, no matter what his ends are.
I'm also reading your memo and getting uncomfortable about the term "villain" being used in regards to Macbeth as a description and as an explanation for his motives and actions in this episode. I guess it was always my own personal taste and regard for the character that I never once saw him in that light; I always saw him as distinguishly neutral.
I can understand when you say this type of confusion is exactly what you wanted, but sometimes I don't see it as much a story type of confusion, where we just don't know him yet and are trying to figure this guy out, but more as a consistency confusion, where his character in other places is inconsistent with his character here.
Just a few of my ideas. And I love being able to get this much discussion and difference of opinion out of a t.v. show.
Here's hoping to seeing you in Orlando.
8-)
Greg responds...
The fact that Macbeth said it doesn't mean he'd have actually gone through with it. But he might have. I think you underestimate how far the guy had fallen. He didn't start to climb out of his hole of depression until Sanctuary at least...
I don't think he's inconsistent here. This is only his second appearance, and he's been fairly nasty up to this point. The fact that we see touches of something better doesn't forgive or make impossible the nastiness. He is a bit of a hypocrite, after all. And I think you're basing your assumption on what you'd like him to be, based on the total picture of him, rather than on how he behaved in his first two appearances.
But that's just my opinion.
Anonymous writes...
I just found out that the real Grouch was related to Kenneth III. So wouldn't her relationship with MacBeth be classified as incestous?
Greg responds...
Related how? As distant cousins? Look, if it didn't concern them, I'm not going to let it concern me.
Vazmento writes...
First let me say that you are ressponible for an extremely well produced series of which I am a die hard fan.
I have some questions about Macbeth.
1: Besides the three episodes of "Avalon" did Macbeth ever meet Boudicca?
2: How (primarily) did Macbeth make his fortune?
3: How long was Macbeth employed as a security guard at the prison where Xanatos was held?
4: I know Demona is a socceress, but shouldn't Macbeth have been more wary about entering into a spell with the Weird Sisters?
5: How long was it before Macbeth decided to track down Demona and end his life?
Greg responds...
First, thanks.
1. Not that I can recall.
2. Holdings that matured. Primarily.
3. He wasn't.
4. He was desperate.
5. Centuries.
Demona (repost by Aris) writes...
Hi, Greg! I have a quick question for you -- why did Avalon send Demona and MacBeth to Paris? Goliath, Angela, Elisa, and Bronx were sent to Paris because of Demona and MacBeth. So, why were Demona and MacBeth there? Thanks!! :)
Greg responds...
Thailog. And a need for them to confront each other one more time.
Moby the Mariner writes...
It's always seemed to me that Macbeth earlier apearences were much more villanious than his later ones. Clearly the Macbeth who cares not whether the Scrolls of Merlin were burned is very differet from the one who willingly knelt before Arthur. He's certinlly extreamly different from the Macbeth who defended the Gargoyles on national television.
I'm curious, did you always plan for Macbeth's character to become more grey as the series went on, or was this a choice you made after learning some of the real Macbeth's history?
Greg responds...
I always intend for nearly every character to become more grey as the series progresses.
But keep in mind, that Macbeth DID end up caring whether or not the scrolls were burnt, as soon as Broadway pointed out why they were worth saving. He was always pretty grey. Except perhaps in his very first appearance, where he was more mysterious than evil. He had an agenda. We just didn't know what it was back then.
Still, as time passed, after revealing about him what we did, it was hard not to view him in a more sympathetic light. So much so, that people were suprised he was even playing a vaguely villainous role in Pendragon.
Charles writes...
me again. I was just reading the archives again and a question about demona and macbeth's immortalkity, and what they could survive through. You said that neither character was too eager to test the limits of their immoratlity by saying cutting off their own head or such. I would think this is something Macbeth actually would've done. Now, maybe I misread it or read into it too much, and please correct me, but I thought one of Macbeth's main motivations in "Enter Macbeth" and "City of Stone" was to kill Demona so that he could finally die as well. Almost suicidal. part of my reason for saying this, which is maybe where i read into the episode too much, was in City of Stone at the ending when he just confesses, so tragically in my opinion and I really loved that part, that he was just so tired. I read it as he was just so tired of being alive and living with his heartache of seeing all his loved ones die and tired of this vendetta against Demona. He was tired of being alive and wanted to rejoin his lost loved ones. Am I reading too much into it, and if I am, would you explain how you interpret his actions and motivations?
Greg responds...
I think he was suicidal. But I don't think he was prepared to fully admit that to himself. Macbeth was raised to believe suicide is sinful. etc, etc.
tk writes...
My question today is if Demona and Macbeth can only die by hands of each others hand or so, What would happen if say Macbeth committed suicide not that he really would.
Thanks thats all for now,
Bye!
Greg responds...
It wouldn't work.
Todd Jensen writes...
I've recently read a book on Shakespeare's famous "history play" cycle (the eight history plays from "Richard II" to "Richard III" about the Wars of the Roses) called "Shakespeare's Kings" by John Julius Norwich, which focused on the relations of Shakespeare's cycle to actual English history. And that inspired a fresh question on my part.
In your vision of the Gargoyles Universe, did any of the immortal characters (Demona, Macbeth, Puck, etc.) get involved in any way in this period of English history that Shakespeare was drawing on for his cycle, from Richard II's deposition in 1399 to Richard III's death at Bosworth in 1485? (We know, of course, where Demona was in 1495, ten years after Bosworth, and that it wasn't in England).
Greg responds...
I doubt Demona was around. Maybe in France during the Joan of Arc years. Macbeth might have been around. Or in and out of the country at least.
Puck -- well, I'd have to think about that.
Anyway, as you can see, I haven't really given it any thought.
Is it disappointing when I admit that I don't literally know everything yet?
If so, just imagine that it's a message from the Gargoyle Universe that hasn't come to me (ala Coleridge) in a dream yet.
LSZ writes...
1) Do Banquo and Fleance know Macbeth is THE Macbeth?
2) If so, did Macbeth tell them or did they find out some other way?
3) If Macbeth told them, why did he?
4) How do they feel about him being the real Macbeth?
Greg responds...
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. They knew too much. It was either that or kill them.
4. He pays them well. Nothing else much matters to them.
Cave writes...
why do civilians like macbeth and xanatos have laser weapons while the police force is using automatics and slugs?
Greg responds...
Macbeth largely uses Electro-Magnetic technology, but I get your point. Both these guys are extremely rich and have the time and money to invest in the development of hi-tech experimental weapons.
And generally speaking, aren't cops always a step behind technologically? (That's not meant as a criticism, just as a reality check.)
Chapter XVII: "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time"
Written by Brynne Chandler Reaves & Lydia C. Marano
Story Edited by Michael Reaves
Well, I watched "Lighthouse" again last night with my family. First thing I noticed was the bad "Previously" recap. This is all my fault. The recap features Macbeth, because I wanted to make sure the audience knew who he was. But that blows out the first act surprise reveal that he's behind it all. Up to that point in the story, you'd be thinking Xanatos. But because of the dopey recap, you know it MUST be Mac. Later in the season, after I got hammered over these recaps by the folks on the Disney Afternoon e-Mailing list, I learned never to put anything into the recap that wasn't revealed in the first five minutes of the show to follow. But here's a perfect example of me screwing up my own mystery.
We introduce archeologists Lydia Duane and Arthur Morwood-Smythe. Dr. Duane was named after writers Lydia Marano and Diane Duane. Professor Morwood-Smythe was named after writers Arthur Byron Cover and Peter Morwood. Arthur is Lydia's husband. Peter is Diane's husband. I don't know anyone named Smythe.
Macbeth episodes, at least up to this point, seem to be cursed with mediocre animation. (Of course, everything's relative. Mediocre on Gargs was still better than most series got. But relative to our expectations, this ep is pretty weak.) I bet Elisa would have really looked cute in that red baseball hat if the animation had been even slightly better.
I don't know how clear it is in the prologue. The idea there, was that the wind was blowing through the lyre. The haunting sound drew the archeologists further into the cave. They read the warning which indicates that the seeker of knowledge has nothing to fear, the destroyer everything. They are supposed to hesitate, look at each other, decide that they are seekers not destroyers and then open the chest. Merlin's clearly put a safety spell of some kind on the chest. An image of the old man appears and basically checks to confirm whether the archeologists are in fact seekers or destroyers. Satisfied, the spell disipates. But you can imagine what would have happened if a Hakon type had stumbled in.
Anyway, it never felt like all that came across. Did it?
Brooklyn (re: Broadway): "Ignorance is bliss." In High School, I had a classmate named Howard Bliss. We had chemistry together with Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller once asked the class a question that we all should have known. No one knew the answer, and our own idiocy generated laughter among Miller's students. He just shook his head and said: "Ignorance is bliss." He forgot that he had a student named Bliss. It generated more laughter. I don't know why I told you that. But it's what I thought about when Brooklyn read that line.
There's a semi-heavy-handed "Read More About It" feel to the clock tower conversation regarding Merlin. Goliath practically quotes those public service announcements, saying there are many books about him in the library. I don't mind. I had wanted to cite a few actual books -- like Mary Stewart's THE CRYSTAL CAVE -- but our legal department wouldn't give us clearance for that. Very short-sighted.
A connection is made between Merlin and the Magus. This was not an accident, as at that time, I had planned to have the Magus journey with Arthur on his Pendragon quests to find Excalibur and Merlin. I later changed my mind. But the Magus does at least play a Merlin-esque roll in the Avalon three parter.
I always wonder who was playing in "Celebrity Hockey" that night.
Macbeth's standard Electro-Magnetic weapon was my idea. I didn't design it exactly, but I did make crude little drawings of something that looked vaguely like a staple gun, with two electrodes that generated the charge. I was always proud of that weapon. It was uniquely Macbeth's (and Banquo and Fleances'). Set him apart from all the concussion, laser and particle beam weapons we used elsewhere. (I did the same kind of thing on the Quarymen's hammers.)
It's fun to listen to B.J. Ward voice both sides of the confrontation between Fleance and Duane.
Banquo's model sheet showed him squinting out of one eye. Some episodes, not so much this one, but some took that to mean he only had one eye. So he walks around looking like Popeye for the entire episode. (His big lantern jaw helps accentuate that.) There are a couple of Popeye moments in this ep. But more in his next appearance I think.
It was my idea to just have Mac's mansion rebuilt without explanation. I don't exactly regret it, but it's kinda cheap. We burned it way down. He has it rebuilt. It makes sense. But we usually dealt with consequences more than that.
When he rebuilds it, he installs those cannons. They were supposed to be giant-sized versions of the hand-held E-M guns. But they don't come off that way. Instead they fire at the gargoyles. And mostly seem to destroy the various turrets of Macbeth's own place. Ugghh.
As in "Leader" we get another scene of Goliath and friends confronting Owen at the castle. Looking for Xanatos, when in fact Xanatos isn't the threat. It made sense in both episodes. And it's always nice to showcase Owen a bit. But after two of those in four episodes, I wasn't gonna do that again. (At least not until KINGDOM.)
I love the "Macbeth Theme" that Carl Johnson created for the villain, which is featured at the end of ACT ONE.
Macbeth opens the "second scroll" and starts to read Merlin's seal. This caused tons of fan confusion, as he read "Sealed by my own [i.e. Merlin's] hand". No one seemed to get that he was reading that. They thought Mac was saying that he [i.e. Macbeth] had sealed the scroll. Of course that notion renders the whole thing confusing as hell. But it never occured to us that anyone would take it that way.
We also introduce Jeffrey Robbins and Gilly in this episode. Gilly is of course short for Gilgamesh, one of the legendary characters that Robbins once wrote about. It's just a bit odd, because Gilly is a female.
Robbins is a very cool character. Wish we had had the opportunity to use him more.
I like how when Robbins and Hudson are introducing themselves, Robbins gives his first and last name. Hudson says, I'm Hudson, "like the river". An echo of how he got the name. And a reminder that names aren't natural to him. Even if they are addictive.
John Rhys-Davies is just fantastic as Macbeth. I love his speech to Broadway. It accomplishes everything we needed it too. That line about the "human heart" by the way is a reference to the Arthur/Lance/Gwen triangle.
I also love his line: "I'm Old, but not THAT Old." This was a little hint to what we'd reveal in CITY OF STONE. Sure Macbeth's from the eleventh century, but not the fifth or sixth. It's like someone saying to someone my age, "So what did you do during World War II?"
Lennox Macduff. That was a cool touch. Also a hint as to how Macbeth feels about Shakespeare.
I like the Phone Book scene too. Hudson says "Hmm. Magic Book." Robbins replies: "Aren't they all." Great stuff.
By the way, as Robbins goes through the phone book, scanning names, he passes "Macduff, Cameron". One of my college roommates was Cameron Douglas, who was really interested in his Scotish heritage. That was a mini-tribute to him.
My daughter Erin reacts to the fact that Macbeth threatens to use Merlin's spells on Broadway. She points out that Macbeth had promised to let Broadway go after he had the scrolls. She's surprised he hasn't kept his word. My wife at that point reminds Erin that Macbeth is the villain. Erin gets that. But you can tell it isn't quite sitting right with her.
Later when Macbeth DOES let everyone go without a struggle, Erin is clearly not sure what to make of him.
And on one level, that's exactly as we wanted it. Macbeth is a troubled guy -- a hero who's devolved into a villain. A suicidal villain on top of that, though we hadn't revealed that yet. But he is a villain. Later, it's debatable, but here he's taken to being an ends-justify-the-means kinda guy. And even his ends are hazy at best.
I love Broadway's "precious magic" speech. It's so wierd hearing poetry from the big galoot. But that's so Broadway. The soul of a poet. Bill Faggerbakke was a huge help.
And I love Robbins "They are lighthouses in the dark sea of time..." speech. I love that it's not exactly the title. Brynne and Lydia did fine work on this one.
I wonder what happened to that lyre?
Abigail Thorne writes...
How did Goliath and the others learn that Demona and Macbeth can only be killed if one kills the other? Demona told Brooklyn in "Temptation" how she had been dealing with humans for hundreds of years, and Macbeth told Goliath in "Enter Macbeth" how he had named Demona, which she herself said in "Awakening Part 5" happened long ago. So I get how they could figure out both were immortal, but how exactly did they figure out the terms of the spell?
And another thing--if they knew that only Macbeth could kill Demona and vice versa, how come they thought Macbeth died in the crash in "The Price" and Demona died in the fire in "The Reckoning'?
Greg responds...
From the Weird Sisters, after they were captured -- but before they were released -- in "Avalon, Part Three".
"The Price" took place before "Avalon". And they never said she was dead in "The Reckoning". Goliath simply acknowledged that he wasn't sure. I mean how many questions have I had to answer here about the rules of the whole Macbeth/Demona thing. If you all have some doubts about how that spell works, don't you think Goliath and Angela might also.
Vashkoda writes...
Hello again. These questions are about King Arthur. 1) Would he still be alive by 2158? 2) Would Arthur ever be recognized by world leaders as being the actual "King Arthur"? 3) Would Arthur ever rule Britain again? (he's supposed to be the once and future king, right?) 4) Would he ever rule anything? 4) Will he have an heir? 5) You previously mentioned that McBeth wouldn't "inherit" Excalibur from Arthur. Would McBeth ever even own Excalibur? 6) What's the largest number (rough estimate) of knights that you picture Arthur having, from the time he was awakened until he dies? 7) About how many of those knights do you think might be gargoyles? 8) Do you picture Griff staying at Arthur's side until death claims one of them?
(please forgive the obvious "monstly" typo in my previous post. I would really appreciate an answer to those questions)
Greg responds...
1. Maybe.
2. By some. Not all.
3. Once and Future King of something, all right.
4. That would be telling.
5. He might hold it once or twice.
6. I'm not good with numbers. (It's amazing I can count to fourteen over and over again.)
7. See 6.
8. Yep.
LSZ writes...
Wealth:
1) Who has more money, Macbeth or Xanatos?
2) How much money do the Canmores have?
3) Just how much did the Pack profit financially from their tv show?
Greg responds...
1. From a liquid standpoint, Xanatos. Macbeth may have some extremely valuable items, that would be worth a fortune if he was willing to part with them, but he's largely not...
2. An extremely large trust.
3. Quite a bit. But not as much as Xanatos did.
LSZ writes...
Did Macbeth ever encounter any Gargoyles besides Demona in the centuries between his first 'death' and his first encounter with Goliath's clan in the 20th century?
Greg responds...
maybe... maybe not....
Todd Jensen writes...
A sort of "ramble-reply" to "Long Way Till Morning".
I'll have to confess that the only part of my "first time I saw it" response to this episode that I now remember (other than my delight at another medieval sequence - the 984 scenes in this case) was that I initially believed that Prince Malcolm would actually succumb to the Archmage's poisoned dart, and that this was how he'd died. (It was obvious that he must have died at some point before the 994 events in "Awakening", naturally, since Katharine's ruling Wyvern by then). So the fact that, in the succeeding flashbacks in this episode after the initial one, he does live in the end, surprised me.
I certainly agree with you on the Katharine-and-Malcolm scenes; I'd also felt on my own before reading that ramble that Malcolm was unwittingly planting the seeds of bigotry in his daughter when he used the gargoyles as a means of frightening her to be good. (Kind of reminds me of something I'd read once in either "Dear Abby" or "Ann Landers" about a policeman protesting the way that a few parents use police as "bogeymen" to scare their children into being good similarly). Indeed, Prince Malcolm's judgement really does come across in this episode as a bit on the poor side beyond Katharine; he's overly confident about the Archmage no longer being a threat, while Hudson correctly recognizes that the sorcerer could return for revenge - and indeed, the Archmage does.
Demona's ambitious streak in the 984 scene reminds me a bit of Lady Macbeth similarly urging Macbeth to dispose of Duncan in Shakespeare's play - which, when you stop to think over her future, is rather appropriate. (Indeed, in "Sanctuary", Demona actually becomes "Lady Macbeth" in a literal sense - and if you ask me, she fits the Shakespearean character far better than Gruoch ever did).
I must admit that I've always had a certain fondness for Hudson, and he certainly comes across as a sympathetic figure here. One can't help but admire his dogged persistence in keeping Goliath safe from Demona in the present day. He may think of himself as all washed up, but he still does his duty in protecting Goliath against a very determined adversary.
Two scenes I particularly like in this episode, both near the end: the sight of Demona slowly approaching through the graveyard in the distance, and the bit where she emerges from behind the stone angel - both positively creepy.
Greg responds...
This was a great story, I thought.
And I agree with your Demona/Lady Macbeth assessment. A lot of that was intentional.
Kevy Kakes writes...
In the episode 'Future Tense,' Demona is killed by Cyber-Xanatos, didn't Goliath know something was up then? Because clearly Xanatos is not MacBeth, and therefore cannot kill Demona...Puck knew Demona was immortal because of 'The Mirror,' did Puck just kinda forget, or was he not worried about the details of his little scheme. Just a little somethin' somethin' to ponder and answer for us, or just me
Greg responds...
I think that Goliath's head was fairly well turned upside down by all that had happened up to that point.
As for Puck, what in "The Mirror" gives you the impression that Puck/Owen knows about the Demona/Macbeth connection?
Bengali writes...
1.What happened to Grouchs mother?
Greg responds...
She died.
Bengali writes...
1.What happened to Macbeths mother?
Greg responds...
She died.
Bengali writes...
1.What is Demonas opinion of Bodhe?
Greg responds...
I'm sure she hates the sniveling coward.
Bengali writes...
1.What is Demonas opinion of Gruoch?
Greg responds...
1. I think they kept their distance from each other, generally. No animosity. But I don't see them as friendly. Of course, after it went bad, they hated each other.
Bengali writes...
1.What is Demonas opinion of Luoch?, after all, he was a major supporter of her clan and was outraged when Bodhe suggested that Macbeth betray Demonas clan.
Greg responds...
I think she liked him during those 17 golden years. Or at any rate, liked him well enough. Probably wouldn't admit it, but liked him.
After it all went bad, I think he became just another human to her. But by then she was fleeing Scotland. And he didn't have long for the world.
Faieq Ali writes...
In Huter's moon part three, Demona was going to cast a spell which would wipe out all life except gargoyles. But wouldn't she kill herself because, she would have killed Macbeth and she would have perished as well or would Macbeth be the only human alive? Would Demona's disease or plague have reached the shores of Avalon and killed tom and the Princess?
Greg responds...
Both these points are debatable. I've answered the first one before. (Check the archives for a fuller answer.) It would depend on her mindset. It's possible her survival would have kept Macbeth alive.
I think it's unlikely that it would have hit Avalon.
Mike J. writes...
ENTER MACBETH
A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.
As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)
My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.
My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.
Greg responds...
Bronx is tough. And probably a bit underused in the series. One of the reasons I was determined to take him on the World Tour.
Macbeth is also tough. Resourceful, etc. Definitely wanted to establish that in his first appearance. He's a major kick-ass guy.
Both fun characters to write.
Robin Wynn writes...
Hey Greg,
I thought I'd just add my two cents on something I saw a couple of ppl ask.
The question was concerning the scene in Highnoon (i think that's the right ep.) when Demona and Elisa are fighting, and Macbeth is just sitting there not feeling anything. Your reply was that you lost track of the whole pain thing, (i think there was another explanation that you gave, but I cant' remember it right now) Well, I had always been under the impression, that in that scene, when Coldstone says "Well, this is diverting" (or something like that) And Macbeth replies, "You don't know the half of it" I always figured that that was what he was refering to. That he could feel the pain, and so it was even more 'diverting' that it seemed. But maybe he didn't react to it because he had seen teh pain coming, and so braced himself for the impact. And, maybe he was getting a tad bit of pleasure at watching Demona get her but whipped by Elisa. ;)
Anyway, that's my two cents worth..
Greg responds...
I do think I more or less said that as my "in-Universe" explanation, but at any rate , I like your interpretation.
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