Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

In your latest beat sheet for the series opener, I see that the idea of the Trio being young and inexperienced was still prominant. I understand where you came from in eventually changing that, but when I first watched AWAKENING I was distraught by the Trio. Every gargoyle we saw was a full-fledged warrior. Where _were_ the inexperienced kids? The elderly? It seemed slightly out-of-sync that the Trio were such able-bodied fighters. Was the Viking attack a real threat or wasn't it?

That is just my original impression of the events of the initial Viking attack. Later on, when the gang counterattacks the camp, I can understand their participation.

I guess the battle just came off too light-heartedly when we glimped the Trio, starkly contrasting with characters like Goliath's and Demona's scenes. A real sense of danger is added by Hakon drawing Goliath's blood, boulders crashing into stone, refugees huddling about, the Captain barking orders, etc. But then we have the Trio gallavanting through the battle like it's, as Brooklyn puts it, just "fun."

I think their innocense could have been portrayed in a way that didn't detract from the realism that was so effectively installed earlier on.

This isn't intended to come off as pure criticism. AWAKENINGS was brilliant, especially Part 1. But I thought I'd mention my first impressions.

Another little thing I noticed from the beat sheet is that the flashback originally began showing the refugees entering the castle, with the Marauders/Vikings on their tail, and then both parties camp for the day till dusk. This struck me in two ways: First, it gave me a better grip of realism. Enemy attackers camping right outside the castle, both sides waiting for the battle to begin... that could've added a cool flavor to things, and immerse us more into the medieval setting. Secondly, showing the refugees herded into the castle beforehand would've better clarified the events surrounding the battle. In the final product, we jump straight into the fight and, as a result, a reason is not even necessarily needed. The Captain's off-hand comment about refugees comes off as superfluous. I remember shrugging. 'That's nice' I thought. We were in the battle. Who needed backstory? Of course, the refugees were an important component, for the sake of Tom and his mother, and to better portray the environment of 10th century Scotland. If we'd seen the prologue to the battle, that's included in the beat sheet, I think it would've been much more effective.

I guess what this comes down to in the end is my earlier message I sent to you, in which I asked about trimming episodes with Last Time and Next Time segments. You defended, saying they were useful for tightening the episodes, but I put forth, as shown here, that some valuable stuff can be lost. Of course, it's doubtful you would've wanted or could've gotten a 6th Part to AWAKENINGS, but don't you think you could use ANY extra time you have to better flesh things out?

matt writes...

i'd just like to make a comment about gargoyles kissing. i think that stroking the brow ridges or hair is an extremely intelligent and important things in the garg series. first of all, it gives them some culture very different from humans and second, given that many gargs have beaks kissing becomes kinda hard to do. i'm surprised that Broadway and Angela kiss but i understand Greg's explanation that this is because of human influences on these two. good job, Greg, these subtle differences between humans and gargs really gives depth to the show!

Corrine Blaquen writes...

I was reading your "beat sheet" for the pilot you drew up, and it seemed that at first you didn't intend for Demona to be Goliath's mate. What made you change it, if you hadn't planned it since the beginning?

Blaise writes...

CITY OF STONE

[flexes fingers] Gonna be doing a LOT of typing about this one.

The opening scenes with the hostage situation are pretty good (Terrorist fires off a round of gun-fire and Matt wryly responds, "Think they're starting to see it our way?" The more I think about it, the more I realize how fun this guy is).
Slow person that I am, I didn't pick up on the Weird Sisters' oddity until they started talking to Goliath. Then they disappeared and that sort of clinched it. I knew they were talking about Demona (an idea probably helped by my reading a "Disney Adventures" article on GARGOYLES that litterally described her as a "Gargoyle terrorist").

The heretofore(sp?) unseen conversation between Demona and the Captain is finally revealed (and thanks to your ramble, the reason Demona looked a bit aged in some of the shots--that always drives me CRAZY!). On about my second viewing (I'm still slow) I finally picked up that the "Dawn Attack" was a back-up plan, and the original plan was attacking at night with the gargoyles away from the castle.
It always kills me to see Demona ALMOST tell Othello and Desdemona...and then not. Just like it always kills me later when she ALMOST accepts responsibility for what just happened...and then pushes it off on the humans. The first time I saw that, I was almost literally left breathless, it just seemed so...I don't know--I really cannot describe what that scene made me feel.

Backtracking a bit--The "Tears of Stone" are indeed a nice touch. Very effective, even the second time. In fact that whole sequence where Demona kisses the Goliath statue good-bye is one of the more heartbreaking parts in the series (especially considering the fact that now Demona tries to KILL Goliath).
Love the shattered "Coldstone-head" and Demona's anguished wail/roar; an excellent Act-ender.
The Eggs--You're right, I never gave them a thought after Xanatos mentioned them. Even after this, I didn't give them much thought, for much the same reason as Todd (a thousand years? Honey, they're dead by now--Avalon? Well now, that's different).
Gillcomgain (however you spell it). I liked the trickle of blood that came through his hands after Demona had slashed him. That's just the fiend in me.

Back in the present:
I entirely bought Demona's story about how she lived forever. Xanatos' interest in immortality caught me by surprise a bit. Wasn't this like the first time his desire to live forever was brought up?
"Listen, or watch, but not both." I wondered why Xanatos seemed so intent about this, and it took Hudson's explanation in the next episode for me to catch on. But I like it. It gives that extra complication to the magic.
Yeah, Owen being mesmerized and lifted into a chair while Demona gave the final phrase of the spell was a bit of a cheat. I try to rationalize it, like always (she...had a special talisman palmed in her hand--yeah, yeah!).

Then the Weird Sisters as "Modern Maidens" (if you will). Yeah, Phoebe looking at Seline while she's addressing Luna is a bit aggrivating, but on my tape, as she's finishing the line, after turning her head to Seline, Pheobe's eyes look back in Luna's direction. Maybe in times of great excitement Pheobe just gets her sisters mixed up (for half a second).

Demona and the guards. Yeah, she did NOT age well. The guards--in my mind, they're dead (that mace coming down seemed pretty final to me). I liked that about this 4-parter--people actually DIED. It added more emotional weight.

Demona's Second (I KNEW IT! I just KNEW that was John Rhys-Davies doing his voice). Yeah, I like him too, probably because he was the only other gargoyle in Demona's band who spoke and managed to develop a definitive personality (even when he wasn't speaking, his animated actions/reactions were great). Considering what happens to him off-screen in part 4...so much for not personalizing the victims.
The Weird Sisters as gargoyles--good, and I love their designs.

Ah, the happy days of Macbeth's youth. Like Todd, I find it all the more despicable of Duncan to order Findlaech's(sp?) death after Findlaech's true pledge of loyalty. Bodhe's cowerdice did register for me, but I only REALLY began to take full note of it as the multi-parter progressed and in later viewings.
The Hunter (I LOVE that title--any one word title that has a "The" before it just really piques my fancy). Yeah, I knew it was Gillcomgain (thanks to the painted scars on the mask). Yeah, the more I thought on it the less sense it made that no one would suspect him with those scars on his face. Still, he did wear a hood, and the very nature of his business may make a few people want to overlook any similarities, assuming they even had time to make note of the scars on the Hunter's mask before he A) gutted them or B) disappeared again.

Findlaech's death is the "fall-death," but I don't mind it too much here, and Macbeth's reaction makes it all the more tragic.
Demona saves the young couple. It's actually nice to see her make the "good-guy" choice here. It still shows a glimmer of what she once was, as opposed to how she now acts.

Unfortunately, no I never got the impression that Gillcomgain was going to attack Prince Duncan. But on the plus side the Weird Sisters' appearance really gave the scene an extra impact.
For the record, I was thrilled when I heard Jim Cummings as the Hunter--I think this guy does great voice work.

It was nice seeing Fox here (I had forgotten that in the original outline Derek was the pilot. I'm probably being redundant, but I'm glad you guys were able to go with Fox, it personalizes things even more for Xanatos). And the whole "humans turned to stone" thing really worked for me. When Owen changed, it was just shock--seeing the true nature of the spell. Fox's, more amazing for the danger it put both her and Xanatos in at that moment. Elisa's...her's was the eeriest, due in part to the camera shot and the closing music. I couldn't wait to see the next episode.

Be careful with the rest of these rambles--When it comes to CITY OF STONE I tend to be very long winded and go over almost every scene.

matt writes...

Jim R. and i were just discussing how to get certain with-held info from you by tricking you when we realized just how ruthless we fans can be. thats okay, cuz your smart-ass responses are worth not getting the answers we seek. keep up the good work!!!

Sixshot writes...

I always loved City of Stone 1-4.

My favorite moments :
- Demona smashing the soldiers at the food raid. Vengeance never tasted so cold.
- Gillecomegain entrance at Moray. Nice cloak.
- Demona ripping the mask off Gillecomegain. Demona never realized that she ruined a little boy's life.
- Duncan quote about the mask to baby Canmore.
- The coronation of Luach by Bodhe. Very dramatic.
- Final battle at the Eyrie Building. The double-punch by Demona-MacBeth at Goliath was priceless.
- Xanatos' quote about 'fire at them, sort this out later'.
- The mask passing from one Hunter to another during the whole series.
- And of course, Oeqn's note about 'even cable'.

My only complaints:
- Demona waiting all night to make up her mind on revealing or not her bargain with the captain.
- Demona didn't slaughter Katherine and Magus to retake the eggs.
- Gillecomegain putting the mask to kill MacBeth. Hey buddy, you only for the hunt!
- MacBeth comment about Robots/Gargoyles taking off from the world tallest building in a frozen city. Frozen or not, you can still notice Robots/Gargoyles taking off from the world tallest building.

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble-response on "City of Stone Part Two".

I very much enjoyed it (like the other parts of "City of Stone"). A few specific thoughts:

The 11th century flashbacks continued to be good ones. I particularly liked Macbeth and Gruoch's scene on the hill, the "villains-fall-out" part between Duncan and Gillecomgain, and Duncan's afterwards duping Macbeth into going against Gillecomgain. (One thing that I recently found myself wondering was whether Duncan was hoping to trick Macbeth into killing Gillecomgain for him as a means of disposing of a former henchman who was now becoming of a problem to him, as a means of forcing Gillecomgain into killing Macbeth by having Macbeth attack him, or maybe even whether he was hoping that they'd kill each other and get rid of two problems for him at once).

One thing that strikes me about the Duncan of "City of Stone" (here already in the first two parts and even more in Part Three): he's a lot closer to the Macbeth of Shakespeare than the Macbeth of "City of Stone" is. Duncan is here the one who ensures a clear path to the throne by murdering the opposition; furthermore, he moves against Macbeth in a manner almost evocative of Macbeth's moving against Banquo in the play, because of the fear that Macbeth will cheat him and his future lineage of the throne. (It strikes me as significant that Duncan renews his scheming against Macbeth after Canmore's birth, as if that was the catalyst for it: now he has a future dynasty to protect, rather than just his own personal ambitions). The one significant difference is that the Duncan of "Gargoyles" never shows any of the internal torment or remorse that the Macbeth of Shakespeare shows over his criminal deeds; apparently Prince Duncan is much more hardened and callous.

I also like the touch of Demona genuinely failing to recognize Gillecomgain as the boy she attacked back in 994, even after he spells it out to her. (Definitely fits Demona's character a lot).

For the present-day parts: I liked Jeffrey Robbins' return, and thought that it was well-integrated into the story. Demona's massacre was very chilling. As for Xanatos shutting off the broadcast, I picked up on later showings the notion that he initially thought that that would be enough to undo Demona's spell, but I'm not so certain that it occurred to me the first time around.

The thing that interests me most about the ending, actually, isn't so much Xanatos and Goliath calling a truce as the fact that it's Xanatos who brings up the need for a truce with the words "Do you want vengeance, or a solution?" Temporary truces between the hero and the villain over a common foe happen often in adventure cartoons - but how often is it the villain who realizes the need for it first and has to convince the hero of it? The line tells us a lot, I think, about Xanatos's uniqueness: he has common sense, and the clear understanding that finding a way to undo Demona's spell is a much greater priority than just looking for someone to punish.

Looking forward to the rambles on the remaining two parts.

matt writes...

Jim R., i think that Greg explained time travel pretty well and it makes sense to me. if you were to go back in time to save JFK one way or another you failed cuz JFK was assasinated! its like Xanatos said, "You won't, because you didn't. Time travels funny, that way." you wouldn,t succeed it saving JFK because you obviously didn't save him, he was killed despite what you would do. another example is "M.I.A." Goliath knew from meeting Leo and Una that Griff didn't come home that night so when he went back in time even if he did everything to keep Griff in his time something else would have happened. Griff would have been killed etc. time is like a river and any attempt to change it will end in failure because if history had been changed you would never had wanted to try and change it in the first place! does all this make sense?

He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named writes...

I just returned from a vacation in Disney Land. (Boy, was it crowded!) So I figured that I could find some Gargoyle merchandise there; those stores have everything Disney. I walked into one, then another...and another...and another...with no luck. Not a single piece of Gargoyles merchandise anywhere in the park!!!
In one store, I asked an employee, "Do you have any Gargoyles stuff?"
He replied, "I...don't know what you mean...I don't know what a Gargoyles is."
It's nice to know that Disney employees know so much about there company's works. (And they use good grammar, too!) I have searched everywhere for Garg stuff, without luck. Where can I find it? Why isn't there any to be found; especially in Disney Land?

Ed writes...

"CITY OF STONE"

I first watched this about four years ago. I'd seen some of the later episodes of "Gargoyles" when we got the Disney Channel for the first time in the summer but I only saw a few episodes before they stopped airing the show. Later episodes - "EYE OF THE BEHOLDER", "THE GREEN", "THE NEW OLYMPIANS" and "CLOUD FATHERS" through to "THE GATHERING" PART ONE). You can imagine how it was to wait 14 months to find out how it ended. Anyway, I stumbled across the first part of "AWAKENING" completely by accident on GMTV one morning only a few weeks later. When they got to "REAWAKENING", they had a little advert in the break - for the next two weeks they planned to show two back-to-back episodes, and they showed teasers which made me sit up in my seat - Demona smashing stone humans with her "another human bites the dust" line being the one that always rings in my mind.

So, of course, I tuned in. I think, in hindsight, that I missed out by not having the cliffhangers to parts 1 and 3 in the same way. But I still feel now about part 1 as I did then. It's probably the most chilling cliffhanger you did. "HUNTER'S MOON" had two dramatic ones and I guess part 1 of that certainly ranks as quite scary. But I didn't see that until over a year later (GMTV only showed about 30 episodes and I had to wait until Disney started again). By that time, I'd seen many of the "Goliath Chronicles" episodes and had found a clip online showing "They did this to her," but cutting out the final "and I will kill them". Anyway, this cliffhanger I came to completely cold.

I think it's the music that gets me. It's so perfectly controlled and quiet, and pairs so well with the still face of Elisa. And the accompanying loose ends were fascinating too. For one, the stone humans - I knew what was going to happen to some of them from the teaser of Demona's smashing spree and this didn't do anything to lessen my appreciation of it. But then there was Xanatos and Fox. Bear in mind that at this point, I hadn't seen "VOWS" and hadn't yet realised that season 2 was being aired out of continuity. I remembered that they had a baby in "THE GATHERING" though, and was pretty hooked by their characters as such. Owen and Fox added to the drama really well: Fox's 'what can I say, I was curious' line is great and beautifully read. Same with Owen's 'Demona lied to us'. It's so simple, so urgent - a real panicked Owen. Loved it. Xanatos didn't have any particular outstanding dialogue here, but the animation on him is great. You're right - having a show where you really care about the villains, heck having a show where you can have a 4-part story where the problem is created by and solved by the villains (if you include the Weird Sisters and Xanatos), is something pretty special as well.

Basically, this is my favourite of the three cliffhangers. (Part 2's grew on me a lot. Part 3's lost its impact.)

As for Macbeth, I already was fascinated by him. I'd seen him only about five weeks ago in 'ENTER MACBETH' and the name intrigued me. So did the character. And it didn't hurt that his debut episode was great as well. (I can't help wondering how I'd have felt about Macbeth here had I seen 'LIGHTHOUSE' first - Macbeth appeared a lot less mysterious and a lot more villainous there). I never thought it was the same Macbeth that Shakespeare had written about. And I don't remember the naming thing being of particular interest to me. My reaction was more 'yes, it's Macbeth!', rather than 'wow, maybe we'll find out how he named her'. I can't remember when I realised he was in it either (whether he was in the ad or not). But I was bowled for six when I realised that he was the real Macbeth. And I knew nothing about the actual history of Macbeth at the time, although I'd seen several Shakepeare plays in the adaptation series that the BBC ran recently.

It was nice to see Matt too. I notice in your original draft you included Derek in place of Fox. Now, Fox is perfect for the situation but I'd seen 'HER BROTHER'S KEEPER' only a little while ago and Derek really impressed me - I couldn't wait to see how that story turned out. (And even longer to see 'THE CAGE' after that!). Anyway, I always thought it was a pity we didn't see more of Derek working for Xanatos. (Although since 'METAMORPHOSIS' is so early in the season I guess I now see why).

The Wyvern rerun. I'm so glad that you included some revision on the Demona/Captain betrayal thing. I'd seen 'AWAKENING' pretty recently (well, a few months anyway). But still, seeing episodes a week apart and the fact that the story was quite complicated led me to be thankful that there was some explanation. I only got confused once. I mixed up the Magus and the Archmage in 'VOWS'. Eventually I realised that I should just stick a tape in and should have done this from the very start. I regretted that immensely, especially with this story.

And yeah, it was painfully obvious that Macbeth was Macbeth. I didn't care. I was just desperate to see more of the guy. Not as much as the Weird Sisters though. What a presence. Every time they appeared they confused the hell out of me and I loved it.

Of course, I didn't really have to wait very long for part 2 and so most of what I remember is mixed up with that. So I'd better wait for your next ramble to say more…

Todd Jensen writes...

Oh, one other thing about "City of Stone Part One" that I forgot to mention. One touch that I liked was the bit about Findlaech's declaration of loyalty to Prince Duncan. I particularly liked it because of the light that it gives to Duncan's having Findlaech assassinated: not only was it an evil deed, but it was also unnecessary. Findlaech really didn't have any plans to put Macbeth on the throne and outmaneuver Duncan. So Duncan would have become King anyway without needing to send the Hunter over to Castle Moray. In fact, by having Findlaech assassinated, he wound up moving one step closer to the very future that he feared (Macbeth becoming king in his place).

You might almost view it as a parallel to Demona's helping to bring about the Wyvern Massacre, partly to avert the vision that she'd seen in "Vows" (assuming that my suspicion is correct that Demona believed that the massacre had been carried out by Princess Katharine's people; as I mentioned before, the Demona from 1995 tells her only that the humans did it without saying which humans, which could make misinterpretation very easy). In each case, the very attempt that the character makes to avoid an undesired future helps to bring about that future. The old self-fulfilling prophecy business again. (And it crops up, of course, even more in Part Three).

Todd Jensen writes...

After having read your ramble on "City of Stone Part One", I thought that I'd give my own response on it.

I've already given a previous comment on "City of Stone" focusing more on Demona and Macbeth than on the gargs, and how while I usually don't like episodes of a series that focus mainly on the antagonists and leave the protagonists to one side, this occasion was different, and why I believe that to be. So I'll move on to other matters.

1. About the Eggs: To tell the truth, I honestly hadn't given their fate in the series any real thought (beyond the fact that I did believe that Princess Katharine, the Magus, and Tom had taken good care of them) for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the present day. I didn't think it likely that gargoyles naturally lived for a thousand years (and of course, we now know that they don't and that Demona's only managed it because of the Weird Sisters' help), so I assumed that the eggs had long ago hatched, and the young gargoyles grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before Xanatos ever relocated Castle Wyvern to New York. I hadn't anticipated the possibility of a place such as Avalon where time moved slower. So I simply hadn't given any thought to the eggs having any impact on present-day events in the Gargoyles Universe.

2. The first set of flashbacks, the one to the Wyvern Massacre of 994, felt very effective to me - I particularly find Demona's grieving farewell to a stone Goliath extremely moving (and the musical accompaniment fits it very well). You'd have to have a heart of stone (pun not intended) to remain unmoved by it, as well. And the "What have I - what have they done?" moment is a memorable and chilling point for me. (One thing that I've noticed is how often Demona comes close to realizing her error and turning around for the better - and then she rejects the opportunity and the moment passes. Kind of sad, really).

3. I must confess that the subtle hints about Owen's true nature slipped past me; I hadn't equated the "tricky" adjective with "trickster" as in "Puck the trickster". I was just assuming, I suppose, that Demona was considering Owen the more cunning of the two (which I mentally disagreed with since I don't like to imagine Xanatos as less smart than Owen).

And I'd also noticed the way that Demona magically overpowers Owen at the same time that she's reading the spell, and felt a bit puzzled by it. It seemed to me almost as if she was casting two spells at once.

4. The 1020 flashback: The big thing that I thought that I'd say about the Macbeth flashbacks here (for the entire four-parter, actually) is that I do feel that I was better prepared for the differences between the "Gargoyles" Macbeth and the Shakespearean Macbeth than most of the viewers may have been, since I'd read up on the historical Macbeth already. So I knew a good deal of the data about him that showed up in "City of Stone". I knew that Gruoch was the real name of the historical Lady Macbeth (and so I could immediately guess as to the role of the character Gruoch in "City of Stone" when she was first introduced). I knew that Macbeth was, in actual history, a much better king than Duncan was, and that he had overthrown Duncan in battle rather than murdering him in his sleep. I knew about Duncan's son Malcolm being nicknamed Canmore (the name that "Gargoyles" used for him). So I felt quite prepared for the story that "City of Stone" used.

The one case where the Shakespeare version did throw me was when, in the course of watching this episode for the first time, I thought "Findlaech being given as the name of Macbeth's father? But I thought that it was Sinell." (The name of Macbeth's father in the play). But then that evening, I happened to be reading something up on the historical Macbeth, and discovered that his father was indeed named Findlaech - which quite amazed and impressed me. (I also spotted Gillecomgain on Macbeth's family tree as Gruoch's first husband, and was astounded to discover that the first Hunter was a real historical figure thereby; I had known before, however, that in actual history Gruoch had been married to somebody else before Macbeth, and about Luach/Lulach).

5. The bits at the end with Owen, Fox, and Elisa turning to stone were very chilling to me; I'd known that something nasty was going to happen from Demona's spell, but not what, and when we actually saw it take place, it definitely felt spooky. And it's certainly a great cliffhanger, as you said (and I hadn't even noticed that the cliffhanger was directed more towards Xanatos and his associates than to the protagonists).

6. I had indeed believed, for a while, that Demona's spell was how she survived - though by the end of Part Four, I knew otherwise.

At any rate, I thought that it was a great episode, and a great beginning to the second season's first multi-parter. Thanks for the ramble, Greg.

matt writes...

i just watched "Heritage" today. i didn't like this episode for a long time but i've started to like it more and more. i think this episode forshadowed the rest of the series even more than "Future Tense" did.

for instance, when Goliath is in the water and shouts, "Elisa!!" it sounds and looks exactly like Elisa's "death Scene" in "Hunter's Moon III" and Elisa and Goliath's reunion really shows their growing relationship, so much so that i had never thought of those two as a possible couple until this episode (i know, i must have been an idiot not to see it).

"Heritage" also really shows that while Angela is very intelligent she is also very naive about the world outside of Avalon. i don't think she really begin to understand the way the world works until "The Reckoning".

Also, when the whole world tour began i figured Goliath and co. would meet other gargs somewhere and i was so anxious for this that i was fooled into believeing those gargs were real even after Grandmother said that there were no gargs there. poor Goliath, he thought he finally found another clan...

its a good episode, Greg. like "Turf" and "The Silver Falcon" i kinda grew to really like this episode alot!

Jim R. writes...

Happy New Year!
What are your New Years resolutions, Greg? I'm hoping one of them is to get Gargoyles back on the air. But I'm sure you've had that one on your list for at least 2-3 years, right?
If matt was the first to post in 2001, then I hope to be the last person to post today (01/01/01).

Todd Jensen writes...

Re your comment on changing Broadway's character from female to male:

Well, maybe it was cowardice, but I'm certain that it was a good thing for Angela that you did. She wouldn't have been able to have had a S&P-approved relationship with Broadway otherwise, after all :)

Heather N. Allen writes...

City of Stone...what a great miniseries! Not one of my specific favorite sets of episodes, but I love how everything storywise came together ('what a tangled web we weave'!) I ADORE continuing story lines, which is why I never got into many 'sitcom' cartoons. (I DO admit having a weakness for "Freakazoid", though...)

And thanks for explaining that whole screw up with Demona looking too old in that 'new' scene with the Captain of the Guard. That has always annoyed the heck outta me, but I wasn't thinking along the lines of the poor animators trying to keep things straight. Considering I want to go into some type of animation, I feel guilty for not being more thoughtful! ^_^

Now, on to some questions/musings/etc...

"If it turns out short, we can add the bit about 'Birnam Wood coming to Dunsinane', which I've left out for now."

1>You planned to use this witches' prophecy from the play in the show? How were you going to fit it in exactly?

This was one of my favorite ironies in the play (now that I've read it!), right next to the prophecy about Mac not being killed 'by a man of woman-born'. And if you think about it, that irony _was_ portrayed in the series. Demona isn't woman-born, and she certainly ain't a man! ^_~

"He gets in his helicopter heading for Studio, with Derek at pilot."

2> You mean you didn't have "Metamorphosis" planned out at this point in time? Or were you just confused? Or am I just confused...?

"Duncan goes to destroy them starting with Demona."

3> Whoa, hold on! I just thought of something...how'd Duncan know about Gil's feud with Demona specifically? Did Gil tell him? And did he pass on the legend of "The Demon" down to Canmore? How did the Eternal Hunt for the Demon get passed down (I mean, how did future Canmores specifcally know to hunt HER?)

"Duncan is killed in some way. (Preferably the same way Find & Gil bought it.)"

4> Well, we know he DIDN'T die this way. How did that whole magical orb thing come into the picture? Who's idea was it? (Yours? Mr. Reaves?)

"...To Demona, who is having a grand old time with the 'stoners'..."
"...She's practically giddy, talking to herself and the 'stoners'..."
"...In the skies above Manhattan, Xanatos & Goliath fly abreast for a moment as they 'pass gas'..."

>No questions here, I just thought that was funny. ^_~

>Hmm...I just ran this by spell check, and it suggested "manatees" for "Xanatos". How the heck do you get _manatees_ outta that?! There's no "X" in manatees! Sheesh!

Ciao, thanks again!
~H\A~

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

We've all been awaiting this ramble for a long time, and no doubt, the coming weeks will be VERY enjoyable. :)

CITY OF STONE, PT 1.

I'll admit to you that the opening terrorist sequence wasn't all that effective to me. It came off rushed. But it provided an excellent transition to Demona. And then... THE FLASHBACK. The first of many. My God, this was glorious. I always imagine that if I were to ever show off Gargoyles to someone new in under 5 minutes I'd show them this flashback. Even though deductive reasoning filled the holes that this flashback does in, it was still such an experience actually seeing it take place, like witnessing history. The Wyvern Massacre was the defining moment of the series. And now, to see the behind-the-scenes was breathtaking beyond description. Demona's tearful turn to stone, then horrific discovery at sundown were amazing. That 'blood-curdle' music is just great, too.

Let's see, I can't go on like this with every scene, so I'll try to sum up from here.

You mentioned it was originally going to be a three-parter. Allow me to accidentally spit my drink all over my keyboard at reading that. Even now, I think about how much better it could've told its story with five or even six parts. Just three? Impossible. There is so much jammed in there. Too much, really. I'm glad you're here for insight, because I'll be honest: I got scarcely any of what you had in mind for various characters' motivations and inter-relating. Everything was crunched to 'sound bites' and didn't get enough flesh for me to interpret what you were aiming for. Of course, I got all the necessary things needed to understand the flow of the story, but I regret not getting the rest...

This is completely random, but I just thought I'd say that when Macbeth removes his Hunter's Mask later, in Part 4 I think, I like how his hair was ruffled. A nice touch. Very appreciated.

Anyway, to do with Part 1, I have really one more comment. I think the "mistake" you made with the Weird Sisters in their portrayel in this multi-parter has to do with just one key scene... aww, crap, here I go referring all the way to Part 4 again. Oh well, the scene in question is the very end, the "they are our responsibility... our children... that is a story for another day" scene. Up until then, I believe our impression of the Sisters was of benevolent helpers, like you wanted us to believe, according to your memos. However, in this scene, they suddenly "reveal" that they actually had a reason for helping them. That there is a greater design. That Demona and Macbeth have destinies to fulfill. I, and I'm sure most other people, suddenly got insanely excited thinking that D&M were going to be instrumental in saving the world from some great prophecy or something. But as it turns out, it's just a petty strike on an island...

Just my take. (I'd be interested - if this doesn't sound like me usurping your forum, Greg - in what others' takes were.)

Lastly, I just thought I'd mention that, ironically, I was talking with a friend this morning about the play Macbeth. I mentioned Gargoyles and off-handedly about its superior historical accuracy, to which Friend reponded that Macbeth, the play, was fiction. I insisted there really was a Macbeth and Duncan, but he was convinced otherwise. Interesting, huh?

Of course, I myself thought it was all made-up by you and the makers of the show till I looked it up in my Encyclopedia, to see what kind of historical "damage" you were doing in drawing these elaborate tales set in real countries' pasts... heh.

Dracolich writes...

Hello again.

After checking a great website called Encyclopedia Mythica (probably the most extensive list of mythology) I discovered an interesting tidbit on a being that might make the unusual depiction of the Banshee in the Garg universe understandible. The creature there is called a Baobhan Sith, and on a different webpage, it is considered to be another name for the Banshee.
This being is supposed to be a fairy-vampire. Interesting to note that it is supposed to wear green clothes, like the Banshee of the series. Interesting.

Tim writes...

City of Stone 1 ramble:

The Revelation about the Weird Sisters double agent motiviations was a thrill to read. It worked on me exactly like you said it did...did you have a camera inside our heads? Those are still the most wonderfully mysterious fey ever...I loooove Kathie Soucie's voicework.

In the top 5 of the most heart and gut wrenching scenes ever, Demona turinng to stone with a tear in her eye, the massacre finding scene (I thought "COLDSTONE!!!" when she picked up the piece of face) and her tearful goodbye to Goliath and any hope of a non-vengeful life.

1. Eggs: I never gave any thought to the eggs, but once they were shown driven away, it just opened up a whole new subplot to wonder about.

2. MacBeth, I was wondering about, he was neither a hero, nor a villian, something grey in between, which is always the best character. Young Macbeth and Young Gruoch certainly had to grow up fast. Loved the battle scene between Young MacBeth the Hunter and his "Nooooo!" Bodhe seemed to be a shrewed negotiator...probalby would make a good ambasador.

3. I really thought that was how Demona got her immortality, from the Grimorum. Why the heck not? Xanatos seemed to be desperate enough to trust her. Either he would have used the spell on Fox if it worked on him, or he didn't love her enough to ask her about it...wouldn't he have tested it on somebody first?

4. Yeah, Owen being caught by the spell was a bit cheating...but that's okay. :) Never even thought about the "tricky one" comment until I saw the Gathering. Once again, love the latin spells, gives the show authenticity, plus latin sounds just really darn cool and mystical.

Overall, the fact that this show provides wonderful backstories for the "villians" in a FOUR PARTER episode just goes to show why this is on nearly everybody's top 5 best episodes list.

Questions: 1. What did Standards and Practices think about the implications of Goliath and Elisa's relationship by the end of the series?

2. Who came up with the brilliant idea of the access code being "ALONE"? That just fits so well. Thanks so much for these episode rambles!

Yadira - xena_lawless@hotmail.com writes...

Comment:

Shutting off the broadcast, did not make me think that would work in breaking the spell and I thought it foolish of Xanatos to be so sure that it would work. I thought I was going to see a bit of hesitation and uncertainty in Xanatos right before he shuts off the broadcast. It seemed too simple a solution. In many experiences, it's easier to start something, but a bit more complicated to end it.

I did pick up on the fact that Demona recognized and knew the true identity of the person behind the mask when they felt each other's pain, an incident which I found rather interesting and wanted to learn more about it.

I do like Xanatos' line "You want vengeance or a solution." Something a true businessman would say. Put all your personal feelings aside and let's get right down to business , this needs to be fixed right away. That line is totally Xanatos.

Then at the end when Xanatos and Goliath shook hands...I didn't like it. I thought Goliath too forgiving....I mean shaking the hands of a man who's attacked you, paid people to attack you, manipulated you, and evicted you from the only home you've ever known....to shake hands with that man after only one situation where they had to work together and call a truce....for me...it was too soon. I think they should have just nodded to each other
when they parted...letting the other know that they appreciated the other's help, but I still don't trust you. Sometimes I don't blame Demona for being so upset at Goliath and calling him a fool....because sometimes he's too trusting and forgiving....but then again that's why I love him.

Thanks again, Greg, for helping to create a fascinating
series which I will continue to watch on tape and adore.

JADE writes...

Hi Greg,
Your always asking for some feed-back, and well here's mine, well it's more of my thoughts of a certain character--Demona. In the show she always seemed to filled with so much hatred, hatred for every one it seemed. Seeing the person she was before and after the raid of the castle really made me think. Having my own bad days, like every one else, I know what it feels like to "hate" the world, and during those days I realise it takes more strength to stay mad at the world than it does to "like" it. So thinking of Demona always being so full hate all the time is really sad, of course in a way she put herself in it...it was her own hatred for humans that did her brothers and sisters "in". Of course she'll never understand this, I guess her pride gets in her way some times, like every one does. In closeing I would like to say that I think Demona was a good character to throw in, it made the viewers see what a long time of hatred does to the heart.

Dexter writes...

Why is Angela so DAMN sexy? Oh I love her SO much! Dude, do you think she'd go for a blonde-haired punk? I mean, her own dad even went for a human, so maybe there's hope for me yet. Hmm...I bet you're gonna give me a smart-ass remark like "she's taken" or something cuz "gargoyles mate for life" BUT Demona proved that it is not true! Go me! Long live the beautiful Angela!

WereFox writes...

Greg

Just read your rambling about COS part 2 and I must confess I didn't ever pick up on Goliaths intention on killing Demona. It makes sense even though it would have been futile. Still, say he did try it (Big IF I know), I wonder what her reaction would be. As often as she's thrown his feelings for her back in his face, she'd view his attempt to kill her as a sign that his sentimental weakness regarding her was over. On the other hand, would it be so shocking that Demona would express sorrow that Goliath's feeling for her had so diminshed that he was capable of killing her?

Anonymous writes...

Addressed to "matt":
About Goliath "abandoning" the eggs: There IS no justification for him leaving the responsibility of taking care of the eggs to Princess Katherine and the Magus. BUT I do "understand" why. Perhaps it was because he was so depressed and traumatized he couldn't think things all the way through. Perhaps because he didn't feel himself "suitable" or "worthy" of taking care of the eggs and that even the humans would do a better job than he would; he must have blamed himself and not just the captain of the guard and Hakon for what happened at Wyvern. He must have felt he deserved the fate of the surviving members of the clan. And it seems that you have forgotten how sincerely remourseful the Princess and Magus were toward Goliath and how they offered to do anything they could for him. It wasn't as if they grudgingly offered to help him; so they were not very likely to go back on their promise. Also he is mortal and imperfect, and as an imperfect being he made a bad decision. Everyone makes a bad decision, and no one is codoning it, I just want to make sure you understand that.

Anonymous writes...

Hi! I'm Mel from Malaysia and I just wan't to tell you that how much that I'm REALLY hooked and into your original and unique cartoon and it's colourful characters I adore. Well, actually, I do have a vast of shooting questions that might just nip your time away....But you know how Daddies monitor their 17 year old daughters, so I'll just ask a few.
1.I'm so head over heels giddy about the 'steam' between the romantic Duo(G&E), but it also kinda surprises me that the other clan member didn't mind the sparks, I mean, being two different species(I don't mind,REALLY!=]); How come? What did they see within that?
2.Should ever IF THEY have a kid, how'd Demona react to the hybrid

matt writes...

hey, Jim R., thanks again for the kind words but stop putting quotations around my name. Matt is my real name and i'm fortunate enough that one of my favirote characters in the series shares my name! HEY, no one has emailed me!! whoops! i forgot i wasn't going to talk about non-garg stuff!!

matt writes...

i figured since i was singled out to everyone by "Jim R." earlier i'd write something about me... also cuz i like to talk about myself.:)
i don't know Greg personally but i wish i did. i ask Greg so many questions because i'm a big fan and i want to know everything about "Gargoyles" that Greg is willing (or able) to share with us. i've watched garg. since it first came on and i've come up with a lot of questions and when i came across this website i started asking them. i just really love this show! if i had one wish i'd wish for world peace, but if i had two wishes i'd wish that "Gargoyles" had its own television station and played nonstop!! to show how much a fan i am, those last two sentences instantly reminded me of Puck's "does this look like Alladin's lamp" line!!!!
anyway, so as not to clutter up this page with anymore non-garg stuff if you want to email me you can at ewoks11@hotmail.com. i'd love hearing from other fans esspecially since none of my friends were ever really into gargoyles.
and as for all my really great questions: "I can't help it if you can't keep up with Greg and me!". joke. see "Turf".
oh, and thanks for comparing me to Mr. Spock!

demona writes...

gerg in the chat room who is hudson?

WereFox writes...

Greg

My aplogies for all of the typos in my previous post. Thats what I get for posting this at 2:45 in the morning.

Joxter writes...

How much fuu could a fuu dog fuu if a fuu dog could fuu fuu?

Yes, that was a variation on the How much wood could a woodchuck chuck bit... And yes, it made no sense at all. But, Timedancer Brooklyn has a fuu dog... And if you say it all really fast then add a "HEY!" to the end it's pretty fun actually. Just a fun little thing, since I can't think of any questions for you to give a smart-ass answer to at the moment...

Jim R. writes...

Suggestion: give "matt" his own category whenever in the "Greg Archives 3.0". I mean that as a compliment. I know, I know, what can I say...I'm done for tonight.

Jim R. writes...

Greg, who is "matt"? Do you know him personally? "matt", if you're reading this, why do ask Greg so many questions? I hate to be the backseat driver here, but must you require a logical explanation for everything? Mr. Spock would think so, but geez man...

Oh, yes, and Gorebash, I know you will read this...I might be the only person just to ask how do you handle all these questions? You must be damn good at your job! Keep up the good work. I hope this gets posted. (Elvis has left the building...)

Aaron writes...

Hmmmm, a couple of random replies that probably won't make any sense due to the lag. But what the hey.

On the G99 radio play:

<<I had some specific kind of space iron that they were vulnerable to. (I had a name for it. I can't remember it now.)>> If nobody's reminded you by now, it was Dark Iron.

From the comedy development documents:

<<Pat Riley would have had a hard time with this group.>> Hee hee, being nearly as big an NBA fan as I am a gargs fan, you have no idea how funny I find that. Now I'm trying to picture Demona in a dark suit with her hair slicked back, stalking the sidelines like a caged lion.

Oh, and Xavier promised to make Demona the head of security for Glint Enterprises? I know it's a comedy, and so perhaps not such a big deal, but I still get a grin over the idea of his security corps being introduced to their new boss.

"I guess when they said Glint Enterprises was an equal opportunity employer, they weren't kidding."

I do find it kind of ironic though, since being head of security, while primarily about power and control, does sort of fall under the "gargoyles protect" heading.

DCB writes...

More of a general comment than a question, Greg. You don't have to say anything :)

I watch Demona's twice-daily transformation, and it suddenly dawns on me how excruciatingly painful that must be. Which is strange and probably silly, considering her tortured howling and screeching through it all, but I still have to wonder. As much as I hate to admit it, I myself never truly respect physical pain until I actually feel it, and afterwards I'll ''forget'' what it was like until I feel it again. Or I'll recall a time I was in ''unspeakable'' pain, and the feeling itself will be remembered vaguely at best. Pain demands respect, but it isn't as deserving or demanding as . . . oh, say, love and emotion . . . or even mental anguish, which can be far worse than its cousin physical pain.

But the point is, since Demona's situation . . . her lot of pain, both physical and mental, is unique in all the world (save for MacBeth, perhaps), I have to wonder what it's like to go through all that, to live the life of the tortured soul who won't (openly or willingly) admit she's a tortured soul to anyone but no one, even though I'd be insane to jump at the chance to experience that tapestry of pain. A small part of me, the part that wonders, wants to feel it just for the sake of knowing, and the rest of me keeps that one part small.

And when that part grows some, I imagine what it'd be like to have my feet grow several sizes and explode from my shoes like that and come to my senses :)

I guess what I'm actually saying is that "Gargoyles" really makes me think about a lot of things, perhaps even things you never intended your audience to think about or realize.

Happy Holidays, Greg. And thanks.

WereFox writes...

Hi Greg. Just a few thought about the Post Hunter's Moon Demona. My sense from reading the archives is that even though her ultimate plan, representing 500 years of work, has been foiled, her resolve to destroy humanity has not weakened. I can buy this argument, but I'll admit my bias now. Another plan, even one with your usually creative flare, to destroy humanity would still seem anticlimactic to me. Plus any actions by Demona to just pick up where she left off would seem unnatural.

Hi, I've just built a nuclear in my basement and the other day I came within an inch of pushing the button. Does my life continue on as it did before? I'd hope not. There would be consequences, grave ones.

To me, Hunters Moon should be a similar watershed in Demona's plot development. I'm sure she has plenty of other ideas, but would she be allowed to act on them? Even if the Robin Canmore and her brothers keep quiet, Xanatos knows what she almost pulled off. Here is a man with the resources, the motivation, and determination to move mountains to protect his son. I'd be disappointed if he didn't react. If he knows then presumably Fox knows. I can imagine the conversation now. "Mom, you'll won't believe what that nut job Demona almost did." I'm sure Titania would have plenty to say to Demona on this matter. And then there is always the possibility of the Illuminati learning about it. I'm not advocating retribution here, but the bottom line is consequences. You play with a big fire, you get badly burned. Would Demona be allowed to continue scheming while carrying on as president of Nightstone Unlimited? I'd think her first instinct should be to go into hinding for a long while, or something... It just wouldn't feel honest if she just went back to going about her daily life as if nothing had happened.

I once saw a 60 Minutes interview with the surviving families of Herman Goering and Martin Boreman. What I chiefly took away from that show was the sence of overwhelming shame that these people lived with on a daily basis, due to the actions of their genocidal relatives. How does Angela absorb the impact of knowing just how close her mother came on Hunters Moon and not be completely devastated? What kind of a relationship would she want with her mother now that she know just how far she is willing to go?

I can go on but I think you see my point. In the Goliath Chronicles episode, Generations, no mention was made of Hunters Moon. I see that it is also played down somewhat in The Gargoyles Saga. I hope that in any of your future plans for Gargoyles, the consequences for Demonas actions are appropriately profound. Thanks for putting up with the rant.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a comment on your answer to Jason Barnett's question about Rogue. I'd read your ramble on the "X-Files" movie where you explained why you weren't too keen on Rogue as portrayed in the comics, particularly because of what you viewed as a clumsy introduction (her story being mostly crammed-in backstory rather than happening on-stage).

WB's currently doing an X-Men cartoon in which Rogue's a major character, in which they handle her introduction differently. They introduce her in the "now" of the series at the point where her "draining" ability first manifests itself, whereupon Mystique finds out and recruits her for her followers; in the "now" of the series thereafter, Rogue is thus portrayed as a "villainess" of sorts in that she's one of a group of mutants whom Mystique's recruiting in opposition to Xavier and the X-Men - but also portrayed as not feeling quite at home with them (she even reluctantly helps out the X-Men in one episode, though she doesn't feel quite ready to join them even then and heads back to Mystique immediately afterwards).

Actually, I've found it a rather good series (I've been able to quite enjoy it and follow it, even though I've next to no knowledge of the X-Men; they went for a "start continuity over from scratch" approach of the sort that you praised in both the movie and "Batman:TAS"); incidentally, Frank Paur is one of the directors.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of early ramble for "City of Stone" in general; I know that you haven't started any rambles on it yet, but this was a thought that I'd had for some time on the four-parter in general that I thought I'd share with you now, since it is next in line on the Episode Ramblings list.

One thing that has surprised me for some time is that "City of Stone" is one of my favorite "Gargoyles" stories. Surprised me because, as you once said (although I honestly didn't realize that this was the case until after you pointed it out) that the episode focused more on the villains (Demona and Macbeth) than on Goliath and his clan. And when I thought over that, it surprised me. Because I've found that I generally don't like episodes in a series which focus on the antagonists and leave the protagonists off to one side. But I very much enjoyed "City of Stone".

Once I realized that, I began wondering over why "City of Stone" was an exception to the rule. And I did provide myself with two possible answers for why that was the case:

1. The focus of the Demona/Macbeth backstory was on something that genuinely interested me very much, long before "Gargoyles" came out. For one thing, it was set in the medieval period, which is my favorite part of history (and indeed, the "medieval Scotland" flashbacks were always one of my favorite parts of "Gargoyles"). But, even more significantly, the backstory in the flashbacks was all about Macbeth. "Macbeth" is one of my favorite Shakespeare plays, and I was genuinely delighted and thrilled to see Macbeth turn out to be *the* Macbeth in it, and to see his story unfold in the course of the flashbacks. And all the more so when I saw that you were basing it on the historical Macbeth (whom I was already fairly familiar with), even if with some elements from the play (such as the Weird Sisters). So the story there was very much my cup of tea.

And second, Demona was, to me at least, never just another villain in "Gargoyles". She was a very crucial figure in the series. After all, she's a survivor of the original gargoyle clan, and thus as legitimately one of the title characters as Goliath, Brooklyn, Hudson, etc. Not only that, but she's also Goliath's former mate, and thus very much part of his story. So the strong flashback element around her worked for me.

At least, that's the explanation that I've worked out for why my response was and is different to "City of Stone" than to other episodes in other series of that nature (i.e., episodes where the protagonists are given a relatively smaller role). I just thought that I'd share it with you.

AbVibiA writes...

Since you always ask for feedback, Greg, Here I am!!!!!
Thanks to you and many others for:

1. Your old notes from the earliest days and silly thoughts. Some of them make me laugh, and some of them make me wish you had used them. (Ala the Elisa- Goliath scene when she mimics Goliath's poses. CUTE!)
2. Gotta love those smart-ass responses!
3. The enduring mystery that you keep about the rest of your plot. I wish you, or some other heavenly creature, could find a way to get that show back on the air!
4. The priceless scenes that endure in the minds of children and obscessive adults alike that I know you had a hand in creating.

Okay, It's short, but what can I say? I just wish the Gatherings weren't so far away, especially for those of us who live in the NorthEast US! Maybe I'll actually get to meet you someday!
-AbVibiA, 13

Mel writes...

Hello, I'm doing an assignment at school for art on Gargoyles, & I thought I'd take a look here to see if I could find some info on them.

I'm LOVE watching the show on Thursdays. I favour Bronsen the best, he's so cute.

Please send a reply to this message to: missee83@yahoo.com.au
because I don't think I'll be able to find this site again.
Thankyou.

matt writes...

i was just looking through the archives and i noticed that everyone always uses the term "the humans" just as we would say "the gargoyles" or "the new olypians". that really struck me as odd because i assume everyone submiting questions is human, as well as you, Greg. we probably say "the humans" for clarification in a universe of diverse peoples, but i wonder if we sometimes say it to distance ourselves from "the humans" in the series who besides Elisa and other friends of the clans (who we are not) usually are the ones to cause trouble for the gargs (which we would not do). well, just another pointless ramble from matt, although i hope its food for thought...

Kathy Lowe writes...

I just want to tell you how much I have enjoyed reading both your rambles on the episodes as well as all the development memo's. I never realized how much effort went into a production or how long in advance people start working on an idea. Your memos certainly show that a lot of team work was involved with the advanced details.
Thank you for sharing this priceless information.
See you at the gathering.

matt writes...

i know you get this alot, but i'd like to say thank you from all the fans, not just for the series itself, but for answering all of our questions and pushing to get episodes (new and old) back on tv. i've loved gargoyles from the beginning and even if there are no new spinoffs or movies i know "gargoyles" will still live on in our imaginations due to your commitment to the series. i love reading an answer to a question and going back to watch the episode talked about and seeing or realizing something i didn't before. thanks again.

JESS writes...

This is a general comment not a question, sorry.
matt writes about bronx not being able to feel pride ...
if he's comparing bronx to a dog, i know for a fact some dogs have a sense of humour, and can get jelous - so why not pride ??
also bronx seems to show considerable intelligence in the series, and to understand, pretty much, what is being said.
( cue "why not pride" question again!)
OK here's one for you, greg - does he?

matt writes...

at the end of "hound of Ulster" Goliath says that Bronx has a right to be proud of himself. now, i like Bronx and i think he is smarter and at times more emotional than your average dog but he is still an animal and i don't quite see how he can feel pride. maybe love, and fear, and loyalty, but pride???

matt writes...

in your analysis of "the mirror" (or somewhere) you mentioned that you wondered what the humans of New York thought when they suddenly relized they were not wearing shoes. last night, as i watched the episode i noticed that only one human was shown without shoes at the end of the episode. i don't think he was wearing shoes to begin with, here's why: the animators would probably pay closest attention to Elisa's changes back and forth cuz she was the main human character. when she became a gargoyle she no longer had shoes (or a jacket for that matter) and when she changed back she did. i think therefore that when Puck changed everyone back they would be as they were before, as Elisa was. that one guy probably was at home or something without shoes on when he was changed to a gargoyle than left his house and happened to be in the street when changed back. i realize i just rambled on about something completely pointless, but it was an observation that i had to share with everyone at "ask Greg".

Aris Katsaris writes...

Random thoughts about Vows:

I think it was around this episode that I decided I really loved the series. Or perhaps it was "The Mirror". One way or another this ep solidified the feeling...

There's an interesting thing about the greek dubbing. When the series was first shown in all the episodes the word "Illuminati" was spoken translated with the (archaic) Greek "Pefotismenoi"-"Enlightened Ones".

This created a very nice subtlety when the Norman ambassador greets Xanatos. He didn't say the obvious "a fellow Illuminatus" (in fact I was quite surprised -and disappointed- when I learned that's what was spoken in the original ep). He said "an Enlightened comrade." I really, *really* loved that line. Both the viewers and Xanatos knew what he was referring to. But the bystanders would get no special meaning by this, other than that the ambassador was praising Xanatos...

Something more about the translation was that it was strangely constructed in the speeches of the 10th century humans- adjectives after the nouns, a rhythm in their speech: Almost as if they were speaking poetry. Probably meant to make a distinction between their speech and the modern-day one... Was there anything analogous in the original?

<<Was anyone expecting Fox and X to really get married? And once they were, did you think you'd see them have a kid by season's end?>>

Once they'd gotten engaged, I did expect them to get married - but the child certainly stunned me. I think my mouth was hanging open at the end of "Outfoxed".

And I certainly didn't expect how that arc would go - that it'd cause Xanatos's redemption. What I had thought immediately after Outfoxed was "Poor kid! He's going to be experimented upon.". I knew that Xanatos had feelings for Fox, but I didn't know that he'd also have feelings for his son...

VF writes...

I've not read anything here before about this theory, so I hope I don't shock anybody. But have you ever thought about the evidence in the series that - gulp - there is a bit of a subconscious attraction between Elisa and Xanatos? Were you deliberate in creating this underlying current? Again, the intricacies of the characters and the stories are why this show appeals to me so much. Not that either Elisa or Xanatos would ever admit to such a thing, let alone act upon it. In fact, if I read Elisa's characterization right, she'd probably kill me for even suggesting such a thing.

But consider that Xanatos - although looking at Elisa as an adversary - will say things like "the charming Detective Maza" and "I love a woman with delicate wrists," etc. And, really, isn't he just a little too interested in her life? I have no doubt of his love and attraction for Fox, but Elisa is very similar to Fox - only working on the side of selflessness vs. selfishness. Xanatos seems to like strong women who can hold their own. And when he claims the feud against the gargoyles is over in "Hunter's Moon," his voice is almost - gulp again - tender when he says to Elisa, "He's waiting for you."

For Elisa's part in this - well, sure it's absurd to be attracted to a man who's turned your brother into a mutate. So I'll again caution that I'm meaning this on a very, very subconscious level. But you can't convince me there isn't some very passionate love/hate heat passing between these two in "Eye of the Beholder" when Xanatos prepares to take off in pursuit of Fox-as-werefox and Goliath, and Elisa jumps up and grabs her arms around him, looks him in the eye and very emphatically says, "I trust you about as far as I can throw you, Xanatos." And then he puts his arm around her waist and they're off because he doesn't have time to argue with her. It's almost as if you don't know if she wants to strangle him or kiss him. Similarly, look at the intensity of love/hate Demona has for Goliath. I also think you could argue that another reason why Fox attacks Elisa (who, to the werefox, appears to transform into Fox) is out of a tinge of jealousy. (You did say that episode was very romantically charged.) Also, Xanatos is a strong, attractive, intelligent ... human male (!) who, like Elisa, seems to have a bit of a nocturnal nature and has a seemingly predestined interest in and connection to the gargoyles. If he weren't so self-serving and nasty and wouldn't alter the physical chemistries of her relatives ... and if she hadn't met Goliath ... , heck, she could really go for a guy like him.

So, enough sacrilege out of me. I'd love to get your take on this. And thanks.

DrFaust writes...

Re: Working time paradoxes.

I must confess, I've always liked "changing the past" time travel stories. I was indoctrinated by "Back to the Future" at a young age. <shrug>

Unfortunately, I have yet to find a book with Heinlein's "All You Zombies." All the libraries around seem to focus on his monumental novels that hammer home the same points over and over. (Annoying nit I feel obligated to mention: all his characters have the same vocabulary and speech mannerisms. Drives me nuts.)

So, er, about the paradox thingy. Wish I had more to comment on it. There is a certain sense of balance and rightness to a self-fulfilling paradox. Makes for a neater and cleaner story. The first time I came across it was a short story by someone I can't remember called "Up By His Bootstraps" (or something similar). The idea blew me away.

It's almost a kind of aethestic, I think. While there is the appeal of a neat paradox, some people like the messy timeloops. Take Lawrence Miles' Faction Paradox ("Alien Bodies" and "Interference"). One of their forms of punishment is for a member to kill his or her's younger self.

Of course, Simon Bucher-Jones suggested in "Ghost Devices" that a self-cancelling paradox would loop over and over, variating slightly each time until some sequence of events occurred that allowed the universe to go on. Sort of like that mythical first time around that Vashkoda suggested.

Aesthetically pleasing as it may be, I always thought this kind of history was somewhat depressing. How do you *know* it was free will? If there never was a first time, and you've always been doing a particular action, then there's nothing to you say you could change. Which you can't.

Anyhoo, just a thought or two buried in all that.

"...full of sound and fury, signifying nothing..."

Jason Barnett writes...

I just read your thoughts on the X-men movie and the books' continuity. About Rogue, she actually first appeared in Avengers Annual 10 and apparently had several appearences in Dazzler, so she was with the Brotherhood for a little while at least. And as for the Ms. Marvel powers, they weren't that vague, super strength, invulnerability, flight. I always felt they were necessary to make a potentially interesting character viable. Half the time when she absorbed somebody their mind took her over so she was against the X-men, so she had to have something she could do to benefit the team.

demona writes...

greg could u give me some sits where i might find other gargoyle fans?