Blaise writes...

LIGHTHOUSE IN THE SEA OF TIME

This is a good ep with a message that had the potential to be quite preachy. I'm glad you guys avoided that for the most part (I'll get to that later).
Yeah, Macbeth as the villain was pretty much tipped off at the beginning. It indeed would have been better if we had suspected Xanatos as the villain all through Act I. At least we got some dramatic irony out of the situation.
Anyway, Macbeth is always a good villain--and you just can't beat his first appearance here. The "Macbeth Theme" comes up in the background (and I love it, too), the lightening flashes, and Macbeth walks towards the screen. You'd have to go a long way to beat that. And I did associate that "Electricity Gun" (as I called it) with Macbeth (he and his flunkies were the only one's who used it).
Actually, Banquo and Fleance were pretty good too, as far as henchmen go. They had their own personalities and B.J. Ward and Frank Welker did good work with their voices. And yes, I have to smile when B.J. Ward talks to herself in the ep.

Animation-wise, I don't suppose it was too bad. *I* thought Elisa looked cute with the red cap. Though how she managed to yank it off without pulling out her hair (since she put it through the hole in the back) is beyond me.
I noticed that Goliath visited the Eyrie building and confronted Owen again (only this time with Brooklyn and Lex in tow), but it works for me.

Robbins...a great addition. Paul Winfield (that is his name, right?) did a great job on his voice (you were going to shoot for Ray Charles?), and his lines were very well written. I find his exchange with Hudson about the phonebook and his final monologue to be some of the best lines in the series.

The opening prologue with the archeologists (after looking at the credits for so long, I knew they were named after your writers and staff) serves it's purpose. The lyre's role is fairly easily deduced, and the full import of the spell on the chest becomes apparent in later viewings. But I agree it would have played better as you described it.
The Scrolls themselves presented a wonderful "Left-turn in the last Act" so to speak. I was quite surprised myself that they turned out to be a diary, and I have to agree that Merlin's Journal would indeed be priceless. I was pleased at the revelation.
I did think along with everyone else that Macbeth had sealed the Scrolls himself. Maybe knowing so little about Macbeth would make us latch onto anything that could even be remotely considered a clue. In later viewings I understood it, though.

On the moral itself...like I said, I felt it was very well done. I didn't find Goliath's mentioning the "library downstairs [being] full of books about [Merlin]" to sound like those Public Service announcements at all. Maybe it's because I don't pay any attention to them or because it just sounded like something Goliath would say (I mean, he loves reading). And I love how Hudson's illiteracy is revealed and handled. I felt it was quite moving. And Macbeth's speech about Arthur was good too. However, Broadway's growth is where I enter into a more grey area. I felt it worked quite well for the most part, especially his line "When your life is this exciting, who needs books?". However, his last speech...I suppose it isn't so bad, but it did seem a little thick with his expression "They take you there". It is true, and probably the best thing to say, but I just can't get into it. Maybe I'm just too used to reading to be able to fully empathize with Broadway's sense of wonderment.

Still, an ep I enjoy wathing. I just wonder how Broadway was able to rip open the hull of the harrier without any noise.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble on "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time", and here are my thoughts on that episode.

It will come as no surprise to those who know me well that this is one of my favorite episodes in "Gargoyles", and I don't even need to say why this is. :) In fact, one of the things that I really like about it is the way that it handled Merlin and the Arthurian legend. As I've mentioned before, lots of animated series do an Arthurian episode at some point, and particularly do so by including Merlin somewhere in it. But "Gargoyles" handled Merlin as more than just "some stupid magician", to quote Broadway. It focused on him, not as just a medieval wizard, but as King Arthur's mentor figure who guided him in the creation of Camelot. This particularly made itself plain not just in Macbeth's speech, but even in the fact that the precise part of the Scrolls that we hear Macbeth read deals with Merlin first meeting the young Arthur, presumably to take him on as his pupil. (And, given that this episode did include some teaching functions in the process, as in teaching Hudson and Broadway that reading is a worthwhile pursuit, I found that appropriate).

Indeed, that was precisely what I liked about "Gargoyles" handling Arthurian legend (and legends in general); it did so in a very intelligent and literate fashion, getting into "What is the significance of this story for us? Why does it still endure in our hearts after all these years?" This, combined with your comments here on Arthur and Co., make me certainly hope that you can either get to do "Pendragon" some day, or if Disney never agrees to that, create some other Arthurian series (as you've mentioned having hopes of doing).

One amusing side-note about this episode: I'd earlier read an article about what was in store for Season Two of "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine that mentioned that time travel would be a part of the season. So when I saw the title, I got the notion from the "Time" part of it that this would be the episode involving it, and that the Scrolls of Merlin would be the means for it. Turns out that I was wrong and that that element wouldn't show up until "Vows" - but I wasn't disappointed.

(I might add that I was certainly not disappointed by the revelation of the Scrolls' true nature, unlike Macbeth - if anything, that made them more exciting to me. An eyewitness account of Arthur's times, written by Merlin himself! Now that's a real treasure! Hudson and Broadway were right to urge Goliath not to burn the Scrolls! And I certainly can't help but imagine the boon that they'd be to Arthurian scholarship).

Macbeth's speech on Arthur and Merlin was not only a very beautiful one, but also helped illustrate his character a bit more and the fact that he had heroic qualities under his villain role. After all, he stressed with such admiration Arthur's ruling "with justice and compassion", something that only a man with some nobility in him could find a positive interest in. Even though he engaged in theft and planning to use Broadway for a guinea-pig, he still came across as not so bad a chap in some ways.

I agree with you that Goliath's bit about "books on Merlin in the library" does have something of a public service announcement, although I don't mind that. (I was initially puzzled as to what books on a legendary wizard would be doing in a police station, until I later on learned that the library that Goliath was talking about was next door to the station rather than part of it). I liked Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" myself, and thought it a bit of a pity that you couldn't have Goliath cite it, although I can understand why it didn't get in. (Interestingly enough, the book was first published in 1970, so it would be having its 25th anniversary the same year that "Lighthouse" first aired).

And I also appreciate the differing angles of Hudson and Broadway's illiteracy; Broadway illiterate and not seeing why that should be so bad a thing, while Hudson is ashamed of his illiteracy and hides it. That was another lovely touch, IMHO.

Ambrosia writes...

Response to A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time
This is one of the few episodes I managed to record. I envy those who have the entire series, but I watch the ones I do have over breakfast all the time. (Have you ever noticed how there's never anything on in the morning?) It seemed to me that Lighthouse and Deadly Force played most often when Gargoyles was in reruns. Maybe that's my imagination, but it seems I groaned whenever this ep was on. Initially, I think the animation was a turn off for me. But seeing it many, many times during my gargoyles breakfasts made me realize the value and indeed, quality of this ep and now, ironically, it's one of my very favorites.
I liked how you dealt with the different reasons Broadway and Hudson had for not learning to read and how they paralleled the reasons given by teenagers and adults, respectively. Also, I thought it was responsible of you to refrain from mudslinging TV and other visual media. Like you've said before, a lot of good can come from other mediums, but shouldn't take the place of reading. Many people get preoccupied with bashing TV, saying it's the root of the evil in our kids today, etc. There is a lot of junk around, but there's a lot that isn't as well. Saying that TV is evil and glorifying reading doesn't accomplish much. A good balance between the two (and others) is what people should go for.
Jeffrey Robbins: I love this guy! I wish he were real so I could talk with him. Of course, the whole behind-the-scenes revelation that he was originally going to be a famous author and Arthurian expert makes me all the more thankful that he wasn't. Many times, the characters of shows are the BEST at something or the WORLD'S GREATEST this or that. It's important to remember that average people, doing something special like writing, can be interesting too. It gives kids a different place to look for heroes other than athletes and musicians.
Elisa: From Guinevere to a baseball cap? Care to elaborate? Since we've all only seen the episode that made it to the screen (of course) we have no idea why you were going to have Elisa dress like Guinevere. But hey, better that than the hat. It was totally impractical for the windy ship (even now, I keep expecting it to blow off in the wind) and it looked ridiculous on her. It's silly, but I smile when she throws it down in the alley in frustration. The hat's dead.
Broadway: I can't think of anyone who has matured as widely as Broadway. First he learns the terribly hard way to respect guns, and now he's back being ignorant again (about literacy this time), but he LEARNS. I love how he (Bill) whispers "But you describe it like you were there..." He says something similar to this in another episode. I can't remember the name or what happened in the rest of it, but Elisa helps him with a word he's struggling with without her having looked at the magazine and he pipes up, "Were you there?" But anyway, he's beginning to understand the importance of reading. By the time he's chained up in MacBeth's house, he's had time to think about it and desperately stops Goliath from endangering the scrolls (which Goliath had done in an attempt to save *Broadway*). I really thought his line was cheesy, though. "When you read them, they take you there..." Maybe not the line so much, but how he looked off into space and his voice got all mystical and mysterious... ah well, beautiful though.
Thank you so much for this episode and for taking the time to share your thoughts with us!

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of rambling about gargoyles in general which I finally remembered to submit.

One thing that I have to hand to "Gargoyles" is that it really did change the way I viewed gargoyles. Before the series came out and I started watching it, I'd always taken it for granted, whenever I thought of "living gargoyles" in a fantasy context, to imagine them as the "bad guys", given that almost every fantasy book, game, television program, or what-not out there portrayed living gargoyles as evil. (Particularly fantasy role-playing games). I wasn't even aware of gargoyles being placed on medieval cathedrals and castles to protect them from evil.

Then I watched the series, and was actually presented with the notion of "gargoyles as 'good guys'". I became interested enough in real-world gargoyles, as a result of the series, to read up on them and discover that indeed, their original function was as protectors. And since then, I've found my own attitude towards gargoyles to be more positive - in particular, I like looking out for architectural gargoyles wherever I can. (I've actually come across metal ones as a part of old-fashioned street lamps in my neighborhood). It's become almost hard for me to realize that I used to see gargoyles as I did before the series came out. (At the same time, though, those memories of how I used to view gargoyles make it all the more understandable for me why so many humans in the Gargoyles Universe would hate and fear gargoyles - which is, in a sense, an acknowledgement on the series' part of the modern-day angle on gargoyles, although the gargs are based ultimately more on the original medieval concept of them).

Just thought that you might find these comments interesting.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is a sort of addendum to my "Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" response, since there were a couple of things in it that I'd meant to say but forgot about at the time.

One little touch that I always liked in this one was the brief scenelets with Bronx - first, when Lexington is yanking a magazine out from underneath him with great difficulty, and then when Hudson calls him, and Bronx jumps up, bounds over to Hudson's armchair, and lies down beside it again.

I don't recall having any problems over misinterpreting the "sealed by my own hand" part, but it is interesting to note that the closed captioning that I saw on my taped copy put Macbeth reading the Scrolls' inscription within quotation marks, indicating that they did recognize that he was reading the writing and that it was Merlin who'd sealed the Scrolls. (I just thought that I'd cite a case where the folks in charge of the closed captioning correctly interpreted something).

I was a bit surprised by your account that the lyre's music was caused by the wind blowing through it; I'd always assumed that it was playing by itself through some sort of magic (particularly given the way that it was shimmering). Thanks for clearing up the account of the visit to Merlin's cave.

(And, regarding Merlin's inscription on the chest, one reflection that I had about it was that the Scrolls truly would be valuable only to the "seeker after knowledge" and not to the "destroyer", as Macbeth found out at the end when he actually read them).

Charles writes...

just reading your lighthouse ramble

I was myself surprsied, and continue to be, at the same moment your daughter was, being the scene where Macbeth says he will test Merlin's magic on Broadway. It felt out of character. Even disregarding what we were to later know of him, up to this point he doesn't seem to be the same type of ruthless villain as Demona or Xanatos. He has already gained that grey shading of character and it is hard to get a handle on his exact motives, but it felt to me he was already established to be very interested in concepts of honor and wouldn't stoop to such actions as using a sentient being as a lab rat, especially after he'd given his word. It's not honorable.

After later episodes and more background is given on him, his behavior in this episode just feels even more out of character. It becomes established that he is a man of deep honor, and while he doesn't act altruistically, like the gargoyles, he doesn't act nefariously either. He acts in his own best interests, but within limits. His saying he'd test Merlin's magic on Broadway is teh equivalent of Xanatos about to test the Cauldron of Life on Hudson, but this just doesn't feel right in my understanding of Macbeth. Such an action is a depth I don't see him willing to take, no matter what his ends are.

I'm also reading your memo and getting uncomfortable about the term "villain" being used in regards to Macbeth as a description and as an explanation for his motives and actions in this episode. I guess it was always my own personal taste and regard for the character that I never once saw him in that light; I always saw him as distinguishly neutral.

I can understand when you say this type of confusion is exactly what you wanted, but sometimes I don't see it as much a story type of confusion, where we just don't know him yet and are trying to figure this guy out, but more as a consistency confusion, where his character in other places is inconsistent with his character here.

Just a few of my ideas. And I love being able to get this much discussion and difference of opinion out of a t.v. show.
Here's hoping to seeing you in Orlando.
8-)

Entity writes...

Hi Greg,

As I read the latest set of responses, I became inspired to share something. My grandmother was over one evening for dinner, and I was transfering Awakening 1-5 from one tape to another. Thus, it was playing downstairs. Well, my grandma sat down there for about the whole evening, talking with my dad and such. Now, some info on my grandma (since it's painfully obvious where this is heading): She's almost 80. It would be an understatement to call her a devout Catholic. She thought "Sister Act" was unwholesome. So, I was scared the whole evening that she'd eventually get to asking what show was playing. Instead, she came upstairs at the end of the evening commenting, in that 'stamp of approval' kind of way, that "that show" was really good. I mean, she honestly seemed damned taken with it.

Guardian writes...

In an earlier post, you said Gargoyles airs after 10 pm. However in my time zone it airs at 9:00 pm so your argument about the time it aired was invalid.

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Not a question, but I thought you might appreciate an anecdote: The JSU at Columbia University sponsers a visit by a professional storyteller once a year. The first year the guest speaker was Penina Shram and she spent some time focused on trickster myths from around the world. She was taken aback by the small but vocal group in front that ~happened~ to know of every one she mentioned. Gargoyles was in the middle of the World tour at the time.

Cassandra writes...

Rambling about Legion.

Between Gargoyles and Highlander, the Silver Cup is on my list of places to see if I ever get to New York.

The backstory between Goliath, Othello, Desdemona and Iago was clear enough for the purposes of the episode. But vague enough to warrent an episode or a sub-plot in "Dark Ages." Iago strikes me as a bit like Xanatos, suave and charming when you first meet him but then you find out what he's really up to.

I realized that more than one person had to be inside Coldstone when he started going bonkers at Ellis Island. Though I believe my initial reaction was "he's possessed!", coming from the Bibical quote I believe. Much more cool to actually make the multiple personalties a part of Coldstone's creation. I didn't realize how much damage the computer virus was doing until I read your memo. So I guess sorcery is the reason Iago's soul/personality is still around in High Noon?

I like the idea that "subconsciously Demona knows her man." Her attacks on Elisa are tinged with so much jealousy, it's surprising her eyes don't light up green instead of red. <G>

Mike J. writes...

First a question, then a brief ramble...

Question: To your knowledge, were there ever any Rocky Horror Show jokes at Tim Currey's expense while he was recording Dr. Servarius? You know, him doing the whole mad scientist bit and all.

Ramble: I don't post here often, but I read what's here all the time. I hope the appearance of some treatise sized responces to your episode rambles illustrates to you how successful Gargoyles really was. Despite lackluster ratings, the people you reached, you reached deeply. Speaking as a writer myself, I think that's about the best we can hope to do.

Joel Hodgeson (creator of Mystery Science Theater 3000) was once asked if he ever worried that people wouldn't get some of the more obscure jokes/references he put in the show. He answered that it didn't worry him because the RIGHT people would get it. I think that sums it up nicely.

Damien writes...

I've just recently gotten into Gargoyles and love it so far, especially Demona. I have to say that I really feel sorry for the way she's been treated by humans in the past and it explains her behaviour when she meets Goliath again.
I loved the animation, even 'Enter Macbeth' wasn't that bad (the storyline compensates for the animation I suppose).
I'd have to say that the overall concept (good monsters fighting evil) was aimed at kids. But the individul
episodes, plots and storylines (including Shakespeare characters and plays) attracted an older audience.
I love the idea of the interspecies romance between Elisa and Goliath. It brings the two races together. This also probably attracted an older audience. If gargoyles was ever revived on television again, would you consider putting it on a channel that more adults watched? It might help the ratings of the show.
I was disappointed to learn that the I was watching re-runs of the show.
I can't wait to see the movie and I'm sure it will encourage Disney to revive the show again.

Abigail Thorne writes...

A few days ago I took out my store-bought copy of "Gargoyles, The Movie," which is the first five episodes without commercials. I was trying to remember why I hadn't watched it in a while. That question was immediately answered once I started watching it.

There are certain details in the movie--background music, sound effects, scene editing--that are either off or just plain wrong. The sound of Goliath crushing Elisa's gun, the arrows flying through the air during the Viking battle, the metallic sounds of the Steel Clan opening their wings and firing their cannons--they are all different, and they drive me crazy!! Then there's the background music, which either starts too late or is completely wrong for that particular scene. But the most excrutiatingly obnoxious error of all is the sound of the gargoyles gliding--it's this high-pitched swooping noise, like a mechanical glider, or something, I don't know what exactly, but it's NOT RIGHT!! {Loud scream of frustration!!!!!!!}

I know, I know, these are fussy nitpicks, but the little details really do effect the quality of the program. I'm a diehard Gargoyles fan who's seen these episodes dozens of times, so hearing a difference makes me cringe. So yeah, what's the point of this post? To ramble, to complain, and to ask if anyone else (yourself included) had noticed and were annoyed by the changes made in "Gargoyles, The Movie."

Thanks for letting me rant. And vent. I feel better now.

Tana writes...

Dear Greg,

Just read your Legion ramble...and I have to say this:

At the time when I first saw that Episode, I knew that Iago was trying to indicate that Goliath was betraying Othello with Desdemona, but I didn't understand why the credits listed the characters with such names. Boy was I naive.

A couple years later I was taking a Shakespeare class and read Othello. Can you imagine, about Act 2 somewhere we're reading it outloud and all of a sudden I say outloud: OH I GET IT. My friends thought I was insane. I had to give a quick explination for my outburst, which didn't help much to prove my sanity (none of them had watched Gargoyles).

Since reading the play Othello has become my favorite of the Shakespearian Tragedies (though I admit I have to read several more) And the Love "Pentagram" has become a delightful flavoring to the show.

I say Pentagram because I do believe that Demona would have been caught up in the whole mess. Especially given that Iago likens so well to the Shakespearian version. If he's going to ruin Goliath (and Othello as well) Then "In for a penny, in for a pound" Demona would have to go too. And probably the whole clan (including Hudson) probably would have been at Odds with Goliath thanks to Iago's whispering.

Which leads me to my first question:

1. Did the incident between Othello, Desdemona, Iago and Goliath occur before or after Goliath became leader to the clan? I ask because it strikes me that if after, Iago would not only try to win Desdemona, but Leadership as well.

2. Since Demona collected pieces of the shattered Iago to create Coldstone, we know he was banish from the clan. So what punishment was set upon Iago for causing such a clash between rookery brothers.

3. For that matter, would anyone have truely realized what Iago was doing, that he was responsible for it?

4. In City of Stone's flashback, we see Demona almost warning Othello and Desdemona about the upcoming attack. In one way, these two were used so that it wouldn't be just random gargs...But given the idea that Demona would have gotten tied up in the whole love scandal, it would seem Demona wouldn't exactly like Desdemona (even if the whole thing proved false; she's got trouble forgiving people) So why, in a character sense would Demona have gone to these two?

Well, I'm sure I had more questions along this topic, but I can't think of them after all that typing, so I'll let you get on with the other questions.

"So will I turn her virtue into pitch; and out of her own goodness make a net that shall emesh them all." -Iago (my fav quote from the play)

John D (Jack's Dad) writes...

Greg,

I hope you remember me and my son. We were at 1999 Gathering (Jack was the little boy dressed as Goliath in the costume contest). Anyway, we cannot attend the Orlando Gathering this year (despite having airline tickets) as I must go to SE Asia for business. Anyway....some updates for you as well as a question or 2

1 -In Japan, Gargoyles memorabilia is quite popular. I have been in Japan quite a few times and Jack has brought some of his Gargoyle figures etc;. AS we interact with more kids, they cling to the show. Of course, translating this into Japanese is time consuming...some of the references and history is impossible for me to adequately translate. But here is the point. With Pokemon and Dragonball Z very much the norm, the kids were taken by the STORIES, not just random colors flying by the TV. The kids have been asking questions about the Clan, and I am trying my darndest to aid them.

2 - As part of my business, Disney is a client. In June, we were on holiday and met up with a mid-level person from the main digs. We had dinner with our family (2 kids on my side, 1 on his) and our spouses. Anyway, trying to be polite, he asked my kids their thoughts on cartoons and the like. Jack is strange in that he is more retro than anything else. He is into Tetsujin 28 (Gigantor in the US) and Gargoyles. So this gentleman was given the perspective of a 7 year old that likes Gargoyles. As a Dad, the proudest moment was when the guy asked...Why is/was Gargoyles so special. (Actually Jack's answer made me proud, not the question) Jack's answer was a mix of normal 7 year old ramblings ("because I was at the Gathering in 1999 and will (as noted above we now must change 2000) also in 2000", "because I have so many toys from the series"), but the kicker was when he said.....because I could use my imagination....this from a 7-year old!. He gets it....if only Disney would.

3 - As I mentioned to you in Dallas, Carl Johnson lives very close to my US residence. He burned a CD of numerous Gargoyle tunes............ - real cool. Upon our return, we were going to bring down to the Gathering a full set of the Gargoyle music from Carl, but now this must wait until 2001. I promised to give him some Gargoyle items for his studio from Jack's collection.....He has a huge photo of the Gargoyles now.

4- lastly.... when we met you in Dallas, my son was overwhelmed. He is a true Gargoyles fan and he was very happy to attend. You and Thom Adcox were very gracious to him when you had a few minutes to spare. No one was around, just Thom and yourself and you made the day of a little boy. For that I am grateful. The true measure of character is doing something (the right thing) when nobody else is around to see it!

I hope the series comes back soon. I have seen many postings from the ASK GREG archives and my feelings are I would not change any of the 66 episodes you created..... except maybe wish there were at least 66 more.

If there is any additional insight on how we can aid your efforts to get the series back, I/we are open to suggestions. We have written to numerous Disney executives to seeming no avail.

Best of luck to you in the future. Hope to see you in 2001 at LA Gathering.

John D (aka Jack's Dad)

Blaise writes...

LEGION

At the time I first saw this ep, I did not know that any play such as "Othello" existed (stupid, uncultured me, I know). I always wondered how you guys chose the two names you did in the credits. Later, after I discovered the fandom on the 'Net, I learned that the names came from the play, and I eventually picked up a (edited-Signet) copy, and bettered myself. The character of Iago utterly fascinated me in it, for his sheer malice and his ability to dupe people so thouroghly. But on with the show...

I remember finding myself quite confused by Coldstone's personality shifts. When Desdemona and Iago showed up in his eye, I thought he was remembering previous conversations. Then (being the dense person I am), I finally got the situation in Act 3 when Desdemona pretty much spells it all out (even then, the Xanatos Program's part in the drama for me took a back seat to the interplay of the souls. It was in later viewings that I fully realized it's own influence).
One thing I noticed from your outline was that Iago had been briefed on his situation by the Xanatos Program. Unfortunately, I didn't see too much of that in the finished product. That they wanted Othello to go after Goliath was apparent, and then they merged, but I hadn't realised that they had been in cahoots before Goliath even entered Cyberspace.
BTW: That is a very cool scene where Iago and Program X merge. I just wonder what exactly that accomplished. Did it make Iago that much more powerful in Coldstone's mind?
And I also love the annoyance on Desdemona's face when Goliath hugs her--it's perfect.
On the subject of animation, the two scenes you mentioned--Coldstone/Othello attacking Goliath, and Goliath getting hit with the laser--didn't bother me so much. Othello's attack on Goliath would have indeed worked better had G been in shadow, but even the way it is, Othello strikes me as very on-edge at that moment, and may have been more ready to attack first than look at his visitor. As for the laser, once again I rationalize--the laser has variable power settings, and Iago, though he may know how to work the laser hadn't taken the time to see what power level it was on. It works for me.
My gripes with animation come on a different scene. When Lex, G, and CS are flying to the Clock Tower, and Lex talks to G, the image gets flipped. Not only do the characters switch positions on-screen, but Coldstone's robotic/cannon arm has suddenly become his left. Also, I've always preferred Coldstone's eye to be black with the red iris (as opposed to the white with the red pupil here).

Once again, my density shines through with RECAP. It wasn't until the second viewing that I noticed the Scarab logo (THANK YOU for telling us why that was the logo of Xanatos' robotics stuff). I think I may have looked away from the screen then. But the tag is still pretty good. This ep, and the two eps preceeding it, are what I like to call "Xanatos' Winning Streak." True, he may not have had COMPLETE victories, but he seemed to get more than he lost (or at least seemed to feel that way).
Matt handling RECAP made sense to me, and the "six months of manuals" line seemed like a nice touch (anyone handling high-priced equipment would have to be at least that knowledgable of it). I also love his reaction when he finally tracks down the visor and finds a rat instead of a creature (oooh, he's gonna get some razzin' back at work...).

Good ep, all around. Just one final note. Clancy Brown's character in "Highlander" is called "the Kurgan"--not "Kragen." Just thought you should know.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your ramble on "Legion" this morning, and my comments on it.

The thing that probably most excited and delighted me about this episode was the bit in the ending credits which named the two new gargoyles introduced in this story as "Desdemona" and "Iago". I wasn't quite certain if I actually had seen those names in the ending credits, and so I was pleased when I later on discovered Gargoyle sites on the Internet and was able to get that information confirmed. But I was pleased by the Shakespearean reference there, and saw at once the appropriateness of it.

("Iago" really does look like a gargoylized version of the way that his namesake usually gets depicted in Shakespearean art - lean, saturnine visage - although I should add that the most convincing interpretation of Iago that I've yet seen in a Shakespearean performance was by Frank Finlay when he did the character in the Laurence Olivier "Othello". Finlay's Iago, while still definitely villainous, *looked* like a bluff and honest soldier, which, to me, made his ability to dupe Othello far more convincing. It bothered me to have to imagine Othello as stupid enough to get taken in by somebody who looked as if he was about ready to sprout horns and cloven hooves any moment).

"Legion" strikes me as a story that one can better understand when you're seeing it a second time and know that there are two other gargoyles stuck inside Coldstone. The first time that I saw the initial shift from Othello in control of Coldstone to Desdemona in control of Coldstone, in the clock tower, I thought that the computer virus had simply caused some sort of short-term memory loss. When I later on saw it again, however, I understood what was really going on here, and found it very effective.

The Biblical background for "Legion" - in a couple of the Gospels, Jesus heals a man with insanity, which is treated in the story as demonic possession. Jesus asks the demon for its name and it replies, "I am Legion, for we are many." (This is the occasion where when Jesus casts out the demons, they immediately flee into a herd of swine nearby which immediately drown themselves).

Incidentally, I've sometimes found it a bit of a pity that we never saw a story where Xanatos would be putting that virus to use, which I was expecting him to do at some point in the future. Of course, if "Gargoyles" ever gets revived, maybe we will.

Jay P. writes...

hello

i just whanted to take the time to say thank for all your eforts in make Gargoules. And allso taking the time to anser all our questions. Allso i love your rambles about the episodes. i can`t what to read the next ones.

i hope you and you famally have great lives.

Razorclaw writes...

Comments on Metamorphosis:

What an episode! This rank on my favorites! The whole idea of having Sevarius looking different at the beginnig and at the end confused me. I didn't realized until "The Cage". Of course, I understood eveything on the reruns.

And yes I got fooled by the Sevarius's fake death, but I don't watch Gargoyles to try to guess what will happen, but to be suprised and impress. Of course that's why I've put high hopes on TGC some years back and it hurted a lot when I saw the results.

A final word, there's not always happy endings, but they make realistic and original twists. In those cases I say: "I can't wait to see the next episode where they resolve that!"

Puck<40> writes...

la la la... bored. going to comment on "Enter Macbeth".
what can I say? badass. I saw the show from day one. I was surprised by every turn of events. Elisa still having crutches made me think.... wow. show has continuity. impressive. Would Goliath lose the castle? I didn't think he would. It wouldn't follow the typical "villian of the week" shows. Fooled again I spose... Xanatos not caring about the Gargs... just happy to be home. And you can tell he was impressed with Macbeth. Of course... he never saw Macbeth in his own castle. That would've completely stunned him. Shot for shot. He went shot for shot with Goliath. I was just watching like. "oh my god, he's not just fancy gadgets man". It was here that I thought he was *the* Macbeth. Just maybe.. a possible sure he might be before. But to go blow for blow like that. Wow.

Loved Brooklyns "ow *bzstz* ow *bzstz*". Bronx running through the streets and Goliath diving down to get get him. That would've scared the hell out of me if I was in one of those cars.

I didn't like something though..... Macbeths way of weilding the sword. He seemed to me like he should've been more talented than to do an overhead charge. I mean the reflection in the sword spoke BADASS! He's gonna get some! And then... blah. But the drop down from the trench was amazingly cool.

And one other thing... Owen. I always loved him as a character. He took Hudson down! Its here you know he's definitely got more to him. Outnumbered, I saw why he drew the gun, I don't think he would've ever fired. It seemed to me like how one man can hold back a mob with one bullet and one gun. Thats why I think he drew. Of course Elisa had to go and wreck it. =( I think I routed for the villians in this show more than the heroes. I *wanted* Macbeth to win.

Any case, in closing. This show has been and will always remain on my top 3 favorite list.

Siren writes...

No questions, just a worshipping moment...
I have said this before, long ago, but the more I watch tv nowadays, the more I feel I need to thank you for such a wonderful show that actually had a point to being made, besides mindless entertainment. It's a shame where tv has gone. Most shows for kids teach nothing. Especially Nickelodeon and the new Cartoon Network crap they keep shelling out. I believe it is the parent who needs to set examples, but unfortunatly, majority of these kids role models and such are not their parents, but bumbling idiots from tv. So with all the tv kids do watch, they should have some message in them. Gargoyles had that. As does shoes like X-Men, Spiderman, and Batman. They aren't always right on the surface for all to see, you have to dig a little deeper. In just one of your episodes you covered racisim, family values, violence, etc. It was just great! When I use to babysit, I had this one boy who loved guns, only 6 at the time. So I brought Deadly Force. What shock he was in when he saw Elisa near death. Majority of cartoon shows don't go that deep. Unfortunatly it wasn't enough to make him stop loving gun and he still thinks he's a big shot cop 4 years later, but at least for that one moment, he was concerned about guns. I love the whole racisim deal in there as well. The Hunters/Quarrymen remind me of the KKK, though nothing is said, it just took that bit of looking farther. You have these scary looking creatures who are gentle, kind, loving...just like humans. And just like humans, there are good and bad gargoyles. No one race is totally the nicest people. I wish Disney would not have started forcusing on those more cartoonish shows like Doug, Recess, Hercules, etc and focused more on a show with depth and character. A show that isn't easily forgotten and displaced. After these years without new eps of Gargoyles, my love for it has not weakened, neither has the hope that they will bring it back, in one form or another. Thank you Greg for such a wonderful show. I have a young daughter who'll be 2 in October, I plan to let her watch Gargoyles in a few years, when she understands it a little better...*sigh* Till then, I am stuck with Teletubbies. LOL! I already have her a Gargoyle t-shirt.

Sharon writes...

I'd just like to make a quick comment about the show. Sadly, my only exposure to Gargoyles comes from Toon Disney. Consequently, I have never seen the episode where Elisa gets shot. Therefore, I appreciated your rambling on the episode.

Finally, someone else asked if you would like the chance to air a more "adult" Gargoyles on stations like HBO. I am an adult, and I love the show as it is (was). Indeed, I think the show is geared to people of all ages. The stories were intelligent and interesting. Although I admit I would like to see the original unedited version of Gargoyles, I would hate to see a change in the basic spirit of the show. Gargoyles (in my humble opinion) is not Spawn. It doesn't need (nor should it contain) the same level of violence, sex or cursing that was evident on that show. I have nothing against Spawn (heck, I watched it when I could), I just like the ... I guess ... innocence of Gargoyles. I believe that a more violent or sexually charged show would cheapen it. Although I agree that the more liberal atmosphere offered by cable would be great, I would hate to see it change the tone of the show. Or, to fall back on an old cliche, if it ain't broke don't fix it.
(So ends a ramble of my own).

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

ENTER MACBETH

I'm sorry to hear you guys had such trouble with keeping the continuity straight in this one. But I'm very glad you did.
It always impressed me that you guys put Elisa on crutches and didn't have her "right as rain" in the episode after she got shot.
One thing that makes me smile in this ep is Xanatos's prison cell. A rug, a nice desk with computer...even in PRISON this guy lives better than the people around him. I love his line, too, when he's in the cafeteria: "Just like mom used to make--when mom was a prison cook." Xanatos calls it a "learning experience." What did he learn--not to get caught again? ;-)
And Macbeth, WOW! I didn't really know it was John Rhys-Davis doing the voice at the time (I just wondered who the Sean Connery sound-a-like was), but everything about him was arresting. The way he held his own against Goliath, his connection with Demona (I was totally floored when he said he had named her), and his overall style was just wonderful.
I also liked the fact that the gargoyles DID have to leave the castle. It didn't surprise me as much because I had already figured they had no choice. A castle is just not so easily won anymore. However, I didn't know that it was a Clocktower to which they were moving--I thought it was Elisa's home. Silly me.
Yeah, I noticed the use of repeated dialogue--easily ignorable for me in Elisa's case, but not so much with Lex and Brooklyn. And the animation does have areas I don't particularly care for, but with this good of a story it doesn't really matter.
Goliath's appearance on the street is pretty impressive, but a lot of us still tend to wonder how so many people seeing him still put "living gargoyles" as an urban myth. I guess the ol' ignore-'em/publicity-stunt mentality is pretty strong, eh?
I always enjoy Brooklyn and Lexington's banter when they're in the cage. Brooklyn constantly touching the cage and giving out a dead-pan "Ouch" is always amusing. Then there's the part where Goliath lets out a roar while in Macbeth's house and Lex just says in a subdued voice "Bronx must've found Goliath" with only Brooklyn's equally-subdued "Yeah" as a response. I LOVE that part.
Goliath laughing maniacally--so in addition to inheiriting Goliath's temper, Thailog also inherited his laugh. At least we now know the answer to Hudson's question in DOUBLE JEOPARDY. Actually, I kind of like it that the hero gave a maniacal laugh. The gargs still have that edge here.
And how about Owen? I still think it kicks @$$ that he took down Hudson and pulled a gun on Broadway in trying to protect the Grimorum. Shame he didn't keep an eye on the injured party, though. Still he demonstrates once again why he's head and shoulders above all "villain sidekicks."

Pyro X (repost by Aris) writes...

Enter MacBeth and Deadly force:

I thought the Animation in Enter MacBteh wasn't half bad. I thought the expression on MacBeth's face when he see's Bronx escape [He pulls his his towards his chest and his teeth go in a figure 8] was funny. I also liked the Goliath expression on his face when he said: "How dare you!"
Also, the stained glass of Demona and MacBeth: Great forshadowing. the sword part... now that just looked cool.

the one part I though was stupid was when Goliath smashed the brick wall. You could see the outline of the hole he was ABOUT to smash! seesh.

I knew something was up between Demona and MacBeth when I saw the glass. But it became way more clear when he said, "I want your queen." Still, I loved MacBeth's Character. I still do.

Deadly Force: When Broadway is flying out of the woods, he goes up, the trees go down and the city comes up. I though that was very cool. When Dracon laughs at stealing the guns, it's a comical laugh. It just looks funny. Go figure.

Derek seems like a no nonsense guy here... Ma Maza asks about calling up Sister Maza from Arizona... Derek says "Don't talk like that." [Or something to that effect.] Right then I knew that he was a tough guy, and would later have a bigger role.

What else? Nothing I guess. Most of what I liked contradicts what you like... but nobody's perfect.

Thanks!

Mike J. (repost by Aris) writes...

ENTER MACBETH

A series like "Gargoyles" is build (in my opinion) on the strength of its villians, and Gargoyles had some of the BEST villians going, especially Macbeth. Even Xanatos, in armor, didn't try to take on all the gargs at once (The Edge) much less succeed the way Macbeth does. Throw in the character's phenomanal personality and history, and you have one very engaging and dangerous guy.

As to the episode itself... I'm forced to agree it was the worst animation in season one. Did you notice in the final shot of Macbeth (in the tape Owen shows Xanatos) that he's got a mustache! Personally that bugged me more than the other probelems. At least keep the character's LOOK right! :)

My favorite part of the episode, amongst many cool moments: While Goliath battles Macbeth, Bronx frees Brooklyn and Lex by CRASHING BODILY STRAIGHT THROUGH THE ELECTRIFIED BARS! This time without the benefit of diveted current. This feat is so impressive it even shocks Brooklyn and Lex. Just look at their faces! I think their actually scared of him at this moment. In my mind, this established Bronx as being, pound for pound stronger than all the gargs, including Goliath.

My two cents... thanks for listening, er.. reading.

Ed writes...

"METAMORPHOSIS" - a big favourite of mine.

I liked Derek after "HER BROTHER'S KEEPER"; I suppose his situation was so believable and yet immensely gripping.

But "METAMORPHOSIS" stunned me. I remember that I timed this episode for some reason - I think I'd assumed up until then that cartoons were cut to exactly 20 minutes and wanted to check it out just out of curiosity. So when I was timing it I was thinking "yeah, right - how long until he gets his cure?" Despite everything, I thought they'd suddenly turn up with a cure eventually. Of course, when my watch told me the thing had been running 19 minutes, my eyebrow raised.

The ending was incredible. I was hooked. I just had to know what happened to Talon. In fact, GMTV never showed it. Eventually I caught "THE CAGE" on the Disney Channel (which I didn't have access to when they showed the episodes first time around). In fact, I think the first episode I saw on TDC that I hadn't already seen was "THE CAGE", which pleased me. That was great too.

I think the whole business of Sevarius' death play and the serum bothered me. How on earth could they have timed it so precisely that Sevarius had his serum to smash at the same time the "Gargoyles" arrived, and that he could be sure of a good way to "die".

Siren writes...

METAMORPHOSIS

I have a thing for cat-like characters as well. Catwoman from Batman has always been one of my favorite characters. So I liked the mutantes a lot. I love the electric eel thing too, it was very cool and very different. I like Talon's attitude. And Fang was a nice addition. I like Claw, but wish I could have seen more of him in the series. Maggie was a slight disappointment, mainly cause we didn't get to see her grow as much. They all seem to accept their new form later in the series, enjoy it even. Maggie was very different from the other mutants. She was more afraid, unsure, cautious...can't blame her. I am getting ahead of myself with this episode into other mutant episodes...but oh well...Maggie is very weak at first. Like a scared little kitten really. Very different from all the other strong female characters.
I think this episode also defined the moment for Brooklyn and all Brooklyn fans from then on. Here's ya got a handsome young gargoyle, who loves this new "gargoyle-like" creature and she blows him off, calling him a monster, even though she resembled a gargoyle. Then she runs to Talon. So ya got this sympathy for Brooklyn. Cause Lex and Broadway didn't seem as interested in her as he was. Ya got Demona even, in Temptation, to me, I felt that when he started to trust her, he started to like her, then she betrays him horribly. Then later, Angela goes for Broadway, when a lot of fans, including me, thought it would be Brooklyn. And poor Brook get's upstaged again, by one of his best friends too. Not that I wasn't happy myself. Actually, I like Broadway/Angela better then Brooklyn with her. Broadway isn't so "pushy"...I am gonna get it from all them Brook fans...So Brooklyn grows slightly from this. It's been over a thousand years, most of those sleeping, but the waking, with no females, so ya got this 16 year old boy, trapped on an island and suddenly the only female blows him off. It's hard for him and he develops the jealousy with Talon.
I also was slightly surprised, but certainly not disappointed by the ending. It was perfect for the episode and I wouldn't want to see it any other way.
BTW, I like look you developed later for the the mutants as well.

Blaise writes...

METAMORPHOSIS

Ah, one of my favs. Pity I missed it the first time it aired.
Throughout the second season, the show was on while I was still in school, so I had to tape it all the time. Three times the VCR, for one reason or another, failed to tape. Each time, the eps that aired were new ones--METAMORPHOSIS, THE CAGE, and KINGDOM (are you sensing a pattern here?). What made this twist of fate REALLY cruel is that these are some of my favorite eps. I love cats for one thing, so I was instantly attracted to the Mutates. This episode was also the one that cemented Brooklyn as my favorite character, so there's another. And, in two of the missed eps, Tim Curry, one of my (again) favorite actors, is featured.
Missing this ep didn't put me too far out of the loop. The only reference to it I picked up was Elisa's remark in EYE OF THE BEHOLDER that the Werefox was "human once, just like [her] brother." For some reason I didn't catch the reference to "mutated victims" and in OUTFOXED, after an initial "Huh?", I forgot about Renard's mention of some "Anton Sevarius" (keeping the strength of THAT revelation safe until the second time around). But, I digress. On with the ep itself.

Brooklyn's attraction to Maggie (whom I instantly recognized and grew interested in--what can I say, I have an affinity for cat-women) intrigued me. I always wondered if the fact that she wasn't a true gargoyle even mattered to him. Did I root for him and Maggie to get together? Not neccesarily. Did I *expect* it? Actually, yes. The attitude Brooklyn displays here is usually as deep as most animated shows go in depicting "love." After some intiial shock, my admiration for the series increased when Maggie wound up with Talon and Brooklyn's attraction was shown as just a crush. Regardless, his "love at first sight" mentality was something in Brooklyn I found appealing (a fellow hopeless romantic, perhaps). His experiences here and his final acceptance of the facts grabbed my notice and from this ep on, I always tended to favor him (though I made an effort not to do so at the expense of the other characters).
Looking at the ep, knowing what I know about the characters now, Brodway's ability to "read people" versus Brooklyn's self-delusion is very nicely juxtaposed, and they have some good exchanges. When Brooklyn tells Broadway "You don't know anything about her" there is much irony--Broadway knows more about her than Brooklyn does.

For what it's worth, I believed Xanatos (probably helped because I had seen EYE OF THE BEHOLDER before I got to see this). He seemed sincere enough to me, and mutation seemed ultra-slimy even for him. Boy was I surprised at the end. I was even more surprised by the end than by Sevarius' "death"--you guys had let people die in the series before, why not now? My surprise was tripled when I saw that Sevarius looked much younger and had a less thick accent than how he'd been played. I thought Sevarius the "mad scientist" was the real thing--he was voiced by Tim Curry who is usually thrown into the roles of over-the-top scientists and (in his own words) "east-European villains" so it was a pleasure to see a sort of send-up of type-casting in this. (And who couldn't recognize Sevarius? Even without the accent, he still had Tim Curry's inimitable pipes.)
The ending: Morbidly enough, this ending is one of my favorites because the good guys actually lost this round. Brooklyn's brooding and Elisa's crying really drove this point home. I am, strangly enough, reminded of a joke T-shirt: "Sometimes, the dragon wins."
And FINALLY! I now know who did the voice of the as-yet-unnamed Fang in this ep. I knew it wasn't James Belushi (it didn't have quite the same "growling" quality) but I couldn't for the life of me figure it out, something I can normally do. Truth be told, I would NEVER have guessed it was Jonathan Frakes (though now it seems so obvious to me). Still, the voices are similar enough, and even if they weren't, the Mutates' voices tended to change with their appearance (Rocky Caroll's (sp?) voice for Derek is different than his voice for Talon, and Kath Souci's voice for Maggie was slightly different in KINGDOM than for her first two appearances). But, nice trivia to know.
I hadn't really noticed how much the theme of self-deception was a factor in this, but it makes sense.
And yes, the animation is sub-par, but I just like the story so much I can live with it (and if I can live with the animation in KINGDOM, I think I can live with anything).
POINTLESS OBSERVATION> Not only does Hudson get left at the Clock Tower, but in this ep (as well as TEMPTATION) he doesn't get a single line). In fact his first words to Maggie are "Who's there?" in THE CAGE.

I'm sure there was more I wanted to say, but I think this message is thick enough already.

Punchinello writes...

Hello.
I see you are making progress with your backlog of questions. This question is kind of an ammendment to another question of mine.

A couple of months ago I asked if your idea for Owen was influenced by an archetype I referred to as being "a supernatural charachter indentured to a human master." I made reference to djinn being bound within oak or silver. Now, I dont recall if I was thinking this at the time, but...

I had just recently viewed "Prospero's Books" by Peter Greenaway again. There is a rather disturbing scene therin, of Ariel, bound in his "cloven pine." Spitting out splinters of wood and carring on. It's all rather ghastly. I had, in the past, made the observation that Ariel could be an other example of this archetype. I think, however, that I needed the emphasis Greenaway placed on certain elements to make some connections apparent to me. Of some peripheral interest is the fact that ariel is another spirit bound in a tree, but of greater interest is the stress placed on the characters servitude to Prospero. It was not much of a stretch to *read Owen* into the character.

OF GREATER INTEREST was how easy it became to read Xanatos into Prospero. I was struck by several things in this vein. The first being the parallel between the two men's status as "mortal's" who had aquired great power through supernatural means; particularly through the service of a captive spirit. (I realize the term "captive" does not really describe Owen's situation.) Further, Xanatos' collection of supernatural artifacts (The Eye, the Grimorrim, even the Gargoyles) could be a reflection of Prospero's robes and staff. The artifacts which empower him.

I also considered (perhaps on the heels of watching an adaptation that placed such emphasis on Pospero's Books) that the Grimorrim might be a volume Xanatos "valued above his dukedom."

I wonder also if a reading of Xanatos as *the exiled duke* would be too far off. Milan is in rather close proximity to Greece. I believe you placed Petros Xanatos as a native, there. While Xanatos may not have been physically exiled from his place of birth, it could be argued that his distance from his father and their conflicted relationship could be read as a kind of exile.

Now, I realize you have your reasons for not wanting to confirm or deny ideas that you had for the show, but were not able to elaborate on before it's cancellation. I read the anecdote about the guy who thought you had stolen his idea. (Wasn't he asking about the characters from "The Tempest," actually?) At this point, however, I think you have rather concretely established that Shakespeare plays a rather prominent and consistent theme in "Gargoyles." I cant imagine that anyone would not be inclined to believe that you were going for this reading from the beginning.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about all of this, but I'm sure it will elicit some interesting commentary from you.

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your "Metamorphosis" ramble. Thanks for it.

"Metamorphosis" is one of my favorite episodes - largely because of what I thought was a very effective ending (Elisa letting Xanatos have it verbally for what he did to Derek, then weeping back at the clock tower); I certainly agree with you that it made a great tragic close to the story. Elisa's weeping scene remains for me, to this day, one of my favorite "great moments" in "Gargoyles".

And I was certainly fooled by Xanatos the first time that I saw this episode. I actually believed him when he made it look as if he wanted to help Derek. In fact, when he refused to let Sevarius cage Derek, saying, "He's a man, not an animal", I practically gave him a mental standing ovation. And then, of course, when I discovered the truth at the end....

But it's interesting to note that I got fooled by Xanatos even AFTER I was familiar with his being the main villain in the series. I knew perfectly well what he was capable of, and yet still actually wanted to think that his concern for Derek was genuine.

Sevarius's apparent death also took me quite by surprise; even though I knew that "Gargoyles" wasn't a typical Disney cartoon, I was still staring at the scene where he apparently gets electrocuted and Xanatos announces his death, with an attitude of "They actually killed somebody in a Disney television cartoon?" (Of course, I must have forgotten about the Wyvern massacre, the fates of the Captain and Hakon, and even Elisa getting shot in "Deadly Force" - although she doesn't actually die there - at the time). Sevarius turning out to be alive at the end definitely astonished me as well.

I don't recall, on the other hand, what I thought at the time about Brooklyn and Maggie's sub-plot (I hadn't even realized, I might add, until after reading your memo, that that and Derek's part of the story both shared the "self-deception" theme, although it makes perfect sense to me now). I did sympathize a lot with Maggie, though; she gets mutated as almost a conscript for a war that she knew nothing about.

One last little note of interest: although you don't mention it in your ramble, Xanatos and Sevarius tell an additional lie that doesn't even get exposed as a lie until later on in the series, about not yet having any gargoyle genetic material to create a clone from. And then we discover in "Double Jeopardy" that they'd already created a clone (given that they got the blood sample from Goliath needed to create Thailog before the gargs even left the castle in "Enter Macbeth").

As for Sevarius's name: well, I think that it's kind of appropriate that it would sound cliched, given the way that the guy revels in cliches.

Ray Kremer (repost by Aris) writes...

I'm writing this after reading your review of Enter MacBeth. I guess I don't have such a discerning eye, I don't remember noticing the animation. I did wonder how the fire spread so quickly in that stone castle, but some liberties can be allowed, I guess.

Continuity? Stuff's great. Elisa on crutches at the start - beautiful touch. Absolutely beautiful. The previously on Gargoyles clips also helped to reinforce the idea that there was something greater here than just episodic television. I didn't mind the early reruns either. Even though I was excited about a cartoon with Star Trek actors in it, when premier week came I forgot all about it until Friday. Just in time for the "surprise" ending that Demona and Xanatos were both bad guys. Oh well, you win some...

MacBeth. Fun guy. John Rhys-Davies has one of those marvelous voices. But I never gave him much thought until City of Stone. "You mean, MacBeth is the ACTUAL MacBeth? Cool!!!" That's gotta be one of the best surprise revelations in a cartoon show ever.

Hmmm, should there be a question here? Okay, how about this. Did you know our man David Xanatos made the Hall of Evil Geniuses? Yep, some guy's webpage roots for evil, and David's on it:
http://home1.gte.net/locke/genius.html

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

DEADLY FORCE

When I first saw this, I missed the first few minutes (it was on early in the morning where I lived and I accidentally overslept). I came in when Broadway was munching the popcorn. Still, when I did see the first few moments, Owen's actions didn't surprise me--I was already impressed enough with him (I had already seen his work in ENTER MACBETH). Dracon did make for an interesting addition to the cast of villains here. Not of the same caliber as Xanatos and Demona, sure, but in his own right he's pretty good.
Now, as for the shooting itself...how do I say this? I was surprised and I wasn't. Let me put it this way--I wasn't surprised that the show would have someone actually getting shot and I figured that Elisa would get shot the instant I saw Broadway pick up the gun. What DID surprise me was how close to death Elisa came. Not to mention the final image of Act I. Then of course there's the end of Act II where Elisa actually flat-lines. You guys always could do shocking cliff-hangers. Yeah, so you couldn't have Elisa die and make it real. She was the secondary lead. At least you did have her flat-line.
How Broadway deals with it is very well done. This is the ep that always impresses me about him. You're right, his rage here is indeed awe-inspiring. Everytime I see the way he handles Glasses I wince in sympathy. I'd hate to have him mad at me.
Him or Goliath. This is another thing I like about this series--the main hero has come close to killing someone in the name of vengence several times already. I like this edge--I like it that the heroes in this show are presented with very real flaws. And yeah, his unbeknownst-to-him-love for Elisa is pretty well shown here. I especially like the last moment the two of them have together.
Back on Broadway, compliments on pulling him out of the "eating machine" pidgeon hole. So many shows just designate a character as that and leave him there. Kudos for giving him something more.
Yeah, about the second or third time I saw this, I noticed it was Matt driving Chavez's car. That always brought a grin to my face the way you guys thougth ahead like that.
One of my favorite parts comes when Owen complains about Goliath destroying Xanatos's guns, and Goliath comments with a veiled threat; "I'll be happy to discuss the matter with him." Do you think he also destroyed those guns to get back at Xanatos? Not as a primary reason, but just as sort of a "bonus."

I always enjoy watching this episode for these little touches.

Ambrosia (repost by Aris) writes...

Don?t worry about coming off as arrogant, Greg. I love hearing your take on the episodes and I look forward to reading them. I always learn so much? Here?s my responses:

Kid movies and, yes, even Disney movies are obviously getting more and more violent. In 1936, the men working on Snow White said that it was too violent for them to take their kids to see. This summer, Clayton fell out of a really big tree with a vine wrapped around his neck and hung himself. A couple years ago, Frollo, obsessed with Gypsy Esmeralda, tried to burn her at the stake. Both of these things were violence and drama for their own sake. Deadly Force, as you said, was making a *statement*. A statement that REALLY needs to be heard these days. It?s easy to look at it superficially and go, ?Nope. Guns, blood. Can?t show that on television.? I?m upset that Toon Disney didn?t look closer.

About Elisa almost dying: I believe this is pretty close to what Doctor Sato said, ?The bullet entered high in the chest, ricocheted off the collarbone, nicked the heart muscle and passed through the right lung. I?ve removed it from the base of the spine.? Yeah. She?s damn lucky to be alive.

I liked what you said about time travel. You can?t change the past. I?d never thought about it farther than that that was the rules of the Phoenix Gate: time corrects itself. Like a river. But it?s true with or without the Gate. You CAN?T change the past.

Matt, as I recall, was also camioed in Her Brother?s Keeper. In his underwear. Briefs. Purple.

I work in a theater. We never keep bagged popcorn for more than overnight.

Tana (repost by Aris) writes...

Greg,

Read your "Temptation" Ramble, and there were a few things that I would love to point out about that episode.
First off: I loved the leather jacket and HOW brooklyn folded his wings under his arms. He really did look good in that episode. ^_^

Second: The bike. It was a cool bike! BUT, the bikers when they see it say: "Cool Hog." Now, okay people who don't know much about motorcycles would refer to any bike as a hog, but these Biker's would know better. A Hog is a Harley Davidson...and Lex's creation looked nothing like a Harley. I dunno if that was you, or somebody else. But oh well, it was still a cool bike.

Third: The spell. Now Elisa says: "I want you to act, FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, as if you weren't under a spell." Wouldn't that in sense nullify some future spells on the big guy? I mean sure, Puck's spell worked well, cause he still ACTED like he wasn't under a spell. Were you maybe planning on keeping with this for future continuity?

oh, and I LOVE your little analizations (sp?) of the episodes. It really lets us get more into your head, and into the world of the Gargoyles.

Blaise (repost by Aris) writes...

TEMPTATION

While this isn't the ep that cemented Brooklyn in my head as "Favorite Character," I have to admit he is GREAT in it.
I still love Lexington's remark about building a horse from spare parts.
Demona's tour of the city--Yeah, the DEAD BODY surprised me too. Very powerful, very good, as were Demona's other two "examples" of humanity. Bennett and Sirtis did WONDERFUL jobs with their voice acting here.
As for the bikers not noticing Brooklyn, yeah everybody notices that. I just try to ignore it and that seems to work. If nothing else, most of the bikers in that scene WERE wearing sunglasses at night (as someone else already pointed out). Come to think of it, some of them weren't even wearing helmets....;-)
Elisa's finger--great, now that you've mentioned it, *I'LL* probably look for it and not be able to see anything else in the scene.
I was surprised to hear that Brooklyn's description of the Cloisters was taken by some folks as "proof" that gargoyles were not native to this planet. Anyone who saw the first two episodes should have understood what Brooklyn meant. Come to think of it, why WOULD people want the gargoyles to be from another planet?
One of my favorite lines in this episode--Brooklyn: "You hold the book, Demona. But *I* hold the *spell*!" I just LOVE that.
The resolution of the spell may have been a bit of a cheat, but it WAS a creative and original solution to the problem. So, you guys still get some points in that area.
Lex and Brooklyn talking about the motorcycle at the end and Lex's reaction are always enjoyable.
Pointless note: Hudson doesn't speak a single line in this episode. Odd, when I think about it. Still, you do at least SEE him a few times.

Good ep.

Entity (repost by Aris) writes...

This is (also) in response to Exolexy's commentary on the post-Avalon episodes. First and foremost, while I do not agree with Exolexy, I do not think it in good taste to make him an anti-fan; an object at which to toss glares as we hang on your arms.

With that said, I would like to say that the post-Avalon episodes had a very jarring effect on me, I believe similar to the one it had on Exolexy. I simply found things to be a bit overwhelming. "The Mirror" had been an early taste, but after "Avalon" things just skyrocketed.

Gargoyles had never struck me as that thick of a fantasy series before that point. My interpretation had been that the gargoyles were the sole fantasy elements, and that that was the premise: Fantasy creatures in a real world. But then the viel was brought back... and at first I didn't like it.

I was a sci-fi fan. Fantasy wasn't my thing. I couldn't grasp beings like Oberon, as it appears Exolexy wasn't able to. My science-fiction conditioned mind kept trying to compare him to Star Trek's "Q", like two puzzle pieces that wouldn't go together. 'If he's onmipotent, why isn't he noncorporeal?' I said. 'Omnipotence demands you be noncorporeal!'

After a while, though, I began to thaw. Then I began to re-watch. And with each re-viewing I came to appreciate the rich mythological and fantasy elements more. Now I couldn't imagine a Gargoyles without all of that.

In short, I owe my appreciation for the fantasy genre to Gargoyles. It was responsible for 'bridging' me over.

Aris Katsaris writes...

After a long delay I am now beginning again to repost much of what had been lost in the crash. Sorry for the delay.

Comment: there were a couple high-tensioned posts of Exolex, Lexy and me which I won't repost - my reason for that is that Exolexy made a comment which seemed to imply to me he wouldn't mind their deletion: if however any of you wants their specific lost comments reposted, just say the word and I'll do so: I'm not exercising censorship, just caution.

Aaron writes...

The caption. Must've been my imagination then. But thank you for the confirmation.

Of course, I goofed up anyway, since the prison is actually *Ryker's* Island, not Riker's Island. Must've been thinking of something else. ;)

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Not questions- comments:

I read your Leader of the Pack posting... as usual, I loved it. Thank you again for posting such things.

I think I remember being surprized by "Xanatos" under the helmut. At the time I was still blown away by one of my all time favorite tv lines; "Because Nietzchi is too butch and Kafka reminds me of your friends down there." {AND the close up on enough letters to recognize Sarte!} I know I was shocked to find out the truth. I thought little of Xanatos for going on a revenge binge, but modern tv has lowered my expectations. However I was stunned when Bronx went for "Xanatos' head", just shocked.

Oddly enough I thought the gargoyles flying away was a nice choice. Many other times there has been widespread ignoring of the "glide, not fly" principle. Here they circled around this unusual unexpected heat source. Under normal circumstances there might have been no way to get back in the air. Coming out to a place without sirious updrafts was a choice the gargoyles made because they had to, a ramiphication of Lex's hastiness. Showing them circling, using the fire to get back in the air, was a touoch of realism with interesting implications. Swimming would have taken away the open question whether they all could swim the distance, especially the part of Bronx howling as if he will drown. It would have been a more explicit version of the 'can't just fly' problem, but not an example of the gargoyles clearly using aor currents to glide.

MAybe I'm just rambling- it is late.

One other thought.
Now that the answers are coming in every day, and the recently answered page is actually moving, I find myself afraid I've missed something that came and scrolled off already, but reluctant to search the entire archive. Perhaps another page would be a good idea. A Relatively New Page in which newer messages, irespective of catagory, would sit for a set amount of time. Each message would automatically fall off the list in 30 days or the like. Just a thought.

Demonskrye writes...

Hi Greg,
I'm working on responding to your rambles on the individual episodes while spacing myself enough that you don't have to read a whole slew of them at once. Hopefully, I'll eventually be caught up enough that you'll remember the rambles I'm refering to.
Without further ado...

"The Thrill of the Hunt"

First off, I think the Trio tryptic was a good followup to "Awakening", since it developed the Trio much more fully beyond their comic relief teenager personalities. Though each of them stand alone well enough, they also fit together nicely with an "Innocence Betrayed" theme. Lex believes the TV version of the Pack is the real thing and gets a rude awakening upon actually meeting them. Brooklyn makes an attempt to fit in with modern humanity and is nearly killed. Broadway accepts the media vision of guns and ends up injuring Elisa. The Trio is discovering the modern world and it's not always a pretty picture.

I also appreciated the fact that Lex was right and in spite of the fact that the episode's events seemed to prove him wrong, Goliath acknowledged that Lex was right. Unfortunately, Goliath didn't seem to do much in the way of "seeking out kindred spirits" for the rest of the season. Though unless I remember wrong (which is entirely likely), Brooklyn uses the same term to describe the bikers he approaches in "Temptation". So maybe the task fell to him.

I love continuity. It's one of the reasons I was so addicted to "Gargoyles" when it was still on Disney Afternoon. And I loved seeing ramifications to the characters actions. I can't remember if I had expected Xanatos to be out of jail by this episode, but I know I appreciate that he wasn't.
And on the other end of the spectrum, we have the clashes between Elisa and Goliath over the status of the castle as the gargoyles' home. Kind of a sign of what was to come, slowly setting up the idea that the victory in "Awakening Pt 5" wasn't as final as Goliath would like it to be.
I agree, this was probably Wolf's shining moment. Much like the gargoyles, we weren't sure what he was capable of at this point. He seemed focused, a skilled hunter, and maybe even strong enough to take on Goliath. Later on, he kind of degenerated into more of a bully type; strong and not exactly stupid, but no strategist either. By the time "Vendettas" aired, he just seemed so inept that I could hardly take him seriously.
The Pack hype was fun. I didn't equate it with Power Rangers at the time, but I can see it now. It also adds to the idea of the gargoyles being from a completely different era that Lex would be completely taken in by something any human teenager could easily identify as so much special effects.
If I was going to compare this episode to "Temptations", I'd probably say that Fox is Lex's Demona. As a rule, Lex hates the Pack in general well into season two, but Fox is the one who seems to really get to him. Thinking on her feet, she dupes him into bringing Goliath to meet the Pack. And judging by his face after she stroked his chin, Lex was pretty well under her spell at that point. Having him so enthralled with the pack really sets him up for the fall later on.
Was that A "Beauty and the Beast" nod when the Pack are seeking out Goliath and Lex on a rooful of stone gargoyles? Or just coincidence? That particular film is one of my other great loves and I enjoyed the ocassional reference to it in "Gargoyles", Elisa's Halloween costume being the most obvious.

That should be all for me. Thanks for listening and thanks as always for helping to make such a fine show.

Greg "Xanatos" Bishansky writes...

Comments on "Leader of the Pack"

When I first saw Coyote scaling the prison wall I immediatly said, "that is SO obviously Xanatos." And when he took off the helmet I honnestly thought you were running out of surprises, I was pleasantly surprised at the end. When Bronx leapt on Coyote and chewed his face off, I literally screamed "WHAT THE F---! THEY KILLED XANATOS!" Then as soon as he got off the ground, for a moment I thought he was still Xanatos and that he would acquire a Dr. Doom esque look to hide his disfigurement. Than he turned out to be a robot, and it all made sense. Than I bust my gut laughing at Hyena's reaction.

Did I think that Xanatos truly loved Fox, well to be honest, no. I thought they were like Boris and Natasha as lovers. But I did like the development in "Eye" and "Vows". Now, I did think that Fox was in love with him after "Brother", just something I knew.

You created two great characters there.

Abigail Thorne writes...

Quick comment on "Leader of the Pack." I had already figured out that Fox loved Xanatos from that scene in "Her Brother's Keeper." But I had no idea that Xanatos returned those feelings or that the two of them were an item--that last scene in the limo was an awesome surprise. I was also totally duped by the Coyote robot--I thought that was Xanatos. I had felt a little uneasy about Coyote's tunnel-vision focus on vengence, but dismissed it because the story was so cool and I was glad the show was back. But when you showed that Coyote was a robot, and that Xanatos clearly didn't care about vengence, it all clicked. Great surprise, great clue, great episode!!

Scott Iskow writes...

Re: "Leader of the Pack"

I have to admit, "Leader" wasn't one of my favorite episodes. In fact, it's near the bottom of the list, right above "Monsters." It did have some great moments, though. I loved the ending with Xanatos and Fox. I liked the scene between Hyena and Fox before they were sprung loose. I also liked the interaction between Brooklyn and Lexington.

But what I liked most of all was something I hadn't noticed until your ramble: The trickery. A lot of clever bits in this show had me fooled. For one thing, I never expected a robot to have to wear a suit of armor, which contributed to my believing it was actually Xanatos. Coyote is the first robot on the show to hide his face under helmet. In a way, it was wearing *two* masks: The helmet, and Xanatos' likeness. The whole show is laced with this kind of trickery.

Too often, I find myself able to predict what is going to happen on a show. It seems that too many of them follow the tired old conventions. Even "Batman," which started out new and fresh, sank into predictable patterns toward the end of its run on the WB Network.

I respect any story that can take me by surprise. Even if it's not my favorite one. In my opinion, that's what separates the talented writers from the ones who merely regurgitate ideas from a preset formula. I think the word for it is... "creativity."

Puck<40> writes...

O.o; just saw all those clan posts you had to look through. Some people have lots of time on there hands. <like I'm one to talk>. Anycase. 9.9; as so my useless comment won't get kicked. A sincere note of..
Thank you for giving us a show <with a little help from the evil hordes of Disney under the name of Buena Vista cause they didn't have full faith in the show>. And thanks to all the people who helped with it. And you for somehow having the weird mindzap to tap into a universe that is not of our own. :) Thats it. <runs of>

Bråndeewine writes...

Greg, your ramblings on "Leader of the Pack" were great. You are too cool. I may only be 23, but I remember Westworld too. :oP As for Fembots, well, I didn't see any machine guns sticking out of Coyote's "jumblies". :oP
*chuckles then sighs* I would really love to get my hands on all of those episodes. I suppose I'll have to go get a satelite....cable sucks anyway. Hearing you talk about the episodes, sounding like such a kid with the enthusium and vigor of one seeing it for the first time...well, it is truly captivating. I love your rambles. Man! What great eye-openers they are!

Bud-Clare writes...

Leader of the Pack comments...

I love the part where Bronx bites Coyote. The first time I watched it, I was sitting there thinking, "Come on, Bronx, bite his head!" I was pretty amused when he actually did it...

(Kind of like in Eye of the Beholder, when Xanatos gave Fox the Eye and I got really grossed out. I thought I was just being silly... until I saw Eye of the Storm.)

As for when I realized that Fox was in love with David, it was in Her Brother's Keeper, since she was getting all gushy. You said that anyone who saw later episodes first is disqualified, but the only episode with Fox in it that I saw prior to the first season was when I saw her at the end of Possession (I missed the beginning), which should have tipped me off big time, except I didn't even notice her. I was too busy boggling over the fact that Owen had turned into a strange blond human. Oh, and I saw CoS before HBK, but I didn't catch on.

I would have loved to have seen the gargoyles swimming back to shore. They glide all the time, where's the fun in that?

I didn't think that Xanatos was lying about being in love with Fox, but I didn't necessarily think he was telling the truth, either. If he didn't care about her at all, he probably wouldn't have bothered getting her out, but "true love" probably seemed a bit excessive.

Blaise writes...

LEADER OF THE PACK
(vrOOM vrOOM! Sorry, couldn't resist!)

I thought this was a pretty good season premiere episode myself. Actually, my brother was watching it with me as well, the first time it aired, and he actually got into it a bit.
I was surprised to hear the narration in the new opening sequence. I do think the dramatic impact was greater when it was purely music, but then again...it's Keith David's voice. It worked.
The prison break had some great imagery and Coyote really steals the show here. Even though the voice was modulated, enough mannerisms were able to pass through (aided by the quips) to make my brother ID Coyote as Xanatos. Me, I wasn't so sure--just didn't seem quite his style. Of course at the end of the act, Coyote takes off his mask and reveals the distinctive Xanatos mug, so I gave my brother a point there. At the end of the episode, however, guess who felt vindicated.
I can't be sure if "Xanatos'" lust for revenge clued me in that he wasn't the REAL Xanatos, but I knew something was up.
Lexington's grudge worked for me. I also liked that it's Brooklyn who relates to him and tries to reach him. It made sense in light of their similar experiences, and coupled with his much sounder "strategic thinking" continued to show him as a growing leader. And I caught his reference to ENTER MACBETH. I always thought it was a nice touch.
But this is Lex's show. And I still LOVE that scene where he blows a hole through Coyote. Violent, but cool (and he does come across more dangerous here than where he's "hopping"--I agree with you there). Of course he gets his "priorities straight" at the end--predictably of course. But I think Thom's reading of Lex's final lines in the episode is some great acting.
Owen--Still knocking 'em dead. Impeccable mannerisms and definitely hints of the Puck.
Random observation: Durning Brook, Bronx, and Lex's fight with the Pack, the three of them are really taken out by only TWO Pack members--Dingo and Coyote. I just find it interesting.
The climactic fight with the Pack does seem to have trouble keeping track of who's fighting who. In fact, between escaping from the hold and the shot of Lex holding the gun and saying "Who's next?" I can't find Brooklyn anywhere. Bias again. Ignore that comment.
Anyway, the scenes with Coyote's head being gnawed on/kicked off/rocketing away are some of my favorite images in the episode (I can be real sick sometimes) and wouldn't you know it, those are the scenes Toon Disney gets rid of.
XANATOS TAG>> I knew Fox had the hots for Xanatos at the end of HER BROTHER'S KEEPER. I DID NOT know that Xanatos reciprocated those feelings. So I was pleasantly surprised, and I liked his line about revenge, robots and true love. I remember my brother voicing his hope that Xanatos was sincere about that part. Me, I don't know why...but I believed he loved her.

OTHER NOTES> You mentioned a "Hudson-game show scenlet" and Lex using "reflective mirrors." Care to elaborate?
Also, I always wondered why Elisa was only in one scene in the season premiere. Now I have a better idea.
Thanks!

Todd Jensen writes...

Just read your "Leader of the Pack" ramble, and a very good one too. Thank you for it; it was really worth the wait.

Re Xanatos and Fox: I was certainly surprised to see at the end that the two were an item - I doubt that I'd even quite picked up on it in Fox's scene in "Her Brother's Keeper". I'm not certain as to my full response to it the first time that I saw it, but I know that it got my attention.

Hyena and Coyote: I've got to admit, I find that the most disturbing relationship in all of "Gargoyles" (come to think of it, even Jackal finds it disturbing, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redoing Goliath's features in his stone sleep). Definite proof that Hyena is strange. (That's probably why I never answered the "Why is Hyena smiling?" contest that you set up after "Her Brother's Keeper" - I'm not certain that I wanted to know the answer :)

I certainly agree with you about the bit where Lexington blasts the hole in Coyote; I also felt that he seemed ready to do the same thing to the human Pack members.

One touch that I like about Coyote, incidentally, is his name. On one level, it fits in with the Pack's habit of using "dog-names" for their members. However, it also fits a robot who starts off by masquerading as Xanatos, and who was designed that way by Xanatos himself, because of the "Coyote the Trickster" element (which you eventually brought into the series in "Cloud Fathers") - not only because Xanatos himself is a trickster, but also because Coyote himself was a trickster in "Leader of the Pack" by duping everyone into believing him Xanatos (everyone but Bronx, that is).

I hadn't given any real thought to Hyena's Santa Claus remark before, but now (in light of your earlier mention that you had a story planned for old St. Nick), I'm wondering if that was a subtle little foreshadowing reference like Elisa's mention of Loch Ness and UFOs in "The Edge".

Oh, and I might add that I also liked the way that Owen was handled in it (it's just like him to deliver the Pack's whereabouts to the gargs in the manner of an invitation to a social event), and Fox's mention of various philosophers that she reads (that's one thing that I like about "Gargoyles"; its very literate quality.

Bråndeewine writes...

*chuckles* I just ~LOVE~ the answer given to Gside on June 20, 2000. That really made my day! *chuckles again mumbling "sneaky-bastard"* .... *snickers as she walks out*

Bråndeewine writes...

Uhh....Sheesh, but you had a lot to go through to get here! LOL, I bet your eyes are red and stinging! Thanks for taking the time to deal with us annoying, curious poeple! :oP