matt writes...

matt writes...
is the Labyrinth that the clones and mutates live in really a labyrinth? it didn't seem too much like a maze whenever we would see it in the series, and lots of characters went down there and didn't get lost or anything.

Greg responds...

It's mostly just a name. But there are tons of corridors, tunnels, etc. Some of them hidden, like the one where Fang found the old Cyberbiotics weapons cache. So you could get lost and you could call it a maze.

And honestly, matt, doesn't this question seem a bit nit-picky?

recorded on 09-11-01

___________________________________

ok, i'll admit that sometimes i DO nitpick at things, but generally my questions do have a point. since you asked i'll tell you that i asked this cuz i really did want to know if it was an actual labyrinth or just a name. and now knowing that its just a name mostly doesn't bother me or anything. i just like to know the little details alot of times. its not nit-picking, its just being complete and precise, i guess.

Shan writes...

Matt asked re: "Leader of the Pack":

2. what does "snakes to a nest" mean anyway? from what i know of snakes, they all abandon their eggs completly or stay with their eggs until they hatch.

Greg responded:

2. Ask the writer. I was just the producer.

Shan contributes:

When I hear this phrase, "like snakes to a nest," it makes me think of snakes rushing to the nests of *other animals* to eat their eggs. There are some types of snakes that prefer only the eggs of other animals -- at least according to my Microsoft Encarta (R).

This sounds like a Southern (United States) phrase, but I'm not sure. My mother's from south-eastern Alabama, and I know they have do have some unusual turns of phrase in that part of the country.

The problem with this interpretation is that it gets muddled by the context, since Lex is theorizing that the Pack will return to familiar haunts. Which leads to the way Matt read Lex's comment (i.e. about snakes' own nests), which might have been the opposite of the writer's intentions. Since the Pack members can definitely be equated with "snakes" I can see how one would get Matt's reading.

Steve Perry's the writer, Michael Reaves Story Edited this episode. I confess I don't know too much on the non-professional background of either person, so I've got no clue where either person would have picked up that phrase.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts. Doesn't change the story any, but possibly of interest...

Richie Rich writes...

HEY, I'm back...and I came back with some milk to wash that cookie down. Santa came early to my house, but I wrestled the cookies away from him to give to you, he's getting big anyway. Mrs. Clause agrees with me. But afterwards Santa and I made up and had a cookie snack together. He told me that you've been a good little boy, Greg, and he's going to give you a big present in December for such great work you've been doing on this web site. He thinks that since you take time out of your valuable schedule to talk to complete strangers is a very noble idea. He's told me to tell you that. He sends his best and can't wait until December rolls around. HO HO HO.

Richie Rich writes...

wuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz up, Greg! Just writting to tell ya that this site is da bomb! You have your hands full with a lot of questions here, some quite philosophical, if I'm reading them right. You're DA MAN!!!!! Keep of the great work and maybe sometime I'll give you a cookie for such great work. SEE Ya!!

Entity writes...

Someone brought up the distinctive coloration of Thailog again, and I thought I'd throw in my two cents. You both agree, basically, that the idea to give Thailog a unique 'color scheme' was a good one, because it nulled the possibility of Thailog and Goliath being mistaken for each other, a very bad cliche. If you'd kept Thailog looking identical and just NOT done that cliche, we the viewers would simply be waiting for it, so the coloration difference was the best way to actively put it to rest.

You ask what the rest of us think about the general direction you and the other writers took Thailog. I'd just like to say that IMHO you guys played him BRILLIANTLY. And I mean it. So many shows bring in clones seemingly just to screw with the hero's identity. But in GARGOYLES Thailog plays such a more profound role. He is Goliath, but with a different soul. And that is what makes him disturbing. Also, in most shows, the clone remains the instrument of his creator, until perhaps he eventually dies, either slain or martyred. But in GARGOYLES Thailog breaks free of his creators in his very first appearence. Right off the bat, Thailog makes it clear that he is his own character, and that although his origin is as a clone, that isn't the extent of his profile. He is something never seen before in science fiction: a clone who so well establishes himself that the description "clone of Goliath" just sounds ignorant and pitiful.

Gipdac writes...

I was just watching Light House on the Sea of Time, and it sparked a memory. I couldn't read/write until I was fifteen years old; I was completely illiterate. My parents had taken me out of public school and home schooled me for a long time because of this, they had tried several different programs and nothing seemed to work. That was the year I saw Light House on the Sea of Time for the first time, and it really inspired me to want to read. I started a new read program that year, and I finally learned how to read. Now I can't imagine my life with out being able to read, I write short stories for fun, I joined the school newspaper, I LOVE reading. So. Thanks for helping me with that first step.

Jacob writes...

Like you, I'm not a biologist, but this thing about a garg's wings bug me. You said that there are bones inside the wings, though you were not sure. But if there are some, then they can't be like the ones inside the arms or legs. Just watch one episode and you should notice what I mean. To fold them over the shoulders with only two large bones, they must be made of rubber, but that seems pretty unlikely. I would say that either instead of two large bones there are many vertebras, or instead of bones something else like cartilage.

I hope you understand what I mean.

What do your thoughts about it?

Lord Sloth writes...

I already said this in the comment room, but you may not have read it. I just wanted to say sorry about how I put a bit too much attitude into some of my past questions (though at the time it felt more like righteous outrage to the way you answered questions). You were quite right in how you aren't obliged to answer for anything for us. This is your domain and your time you are putting out, and sometimes I and other people take that for granted. So in the future I will try to be more respectful.
That having been said, the reason I talked like that was I didn't see why making a small mistake in the question, was any reason not to answer. I didn't (and still don't) understand what you want when you avoid a question. You could want to not answer it at that moment, or it could just be a secret you don't want to get out (which I am quite willing to respect). So:

1) How can I tell which smart-ass response means what? As in When does it mean that you don't want to answer ever, you don't feel like answering now or you just don't want to answer because my spelling is getting aggravating.

2) Would you please be so kind as to grant me the knowledge of why Goliath, Angela and Gabriel weren't burned horribly when they fell into that water mixed with hot magma? By now I do have my own theory about this, but I would like to hear your answer.

And as for my spelling, since both you and Todd Jenson have told me how hard it is for you and him to read what I have to say, I have been making quite a fair effort to keep it clean (and the response as been fairly good in the CR). It seems people can change someone for the better, thanks for the incentive.
BTW, I was just slightly amused when I looked up "Pendantic" (which was what you called on of my questions) in the dictionary and couldn't find it. It was only when I asked my mom, that I found out it is spelled "Pedantic". But still, It's a cool word and thanks for teaching it to me.

Many thanks.
The Lord of the Sloths.

Shan writes...

Greg said:
In fact, Goliath's initial reaction to Thailog is not to form a bond. It's to call him an abomination. (You blithely skipped over that, Shan.) Part of what follows is a bit of guilt mixed in with him taking responsibility for Thailog as a parent.

As to Angela, you've again missed his initial reaction to her on Avalon. It is clearly one of paternal pride, just as he is proud of Gabriel and all of his children.

Shan responds:
You're right on both counts. I do remember having fallen asleep and just woken up in time to see the "Double Jeapordy" episode. Probably thought I remembered more than I really did, both about what I had just seen and Angela's situation. Lousy excuse though. I really should have researched better before asking a question of such an involved level (re: attempting to compare Thailog and Angela).

Shavri writes...

In the episode, "Future Tense," didn't it ever--disturb you looking back how Demona and Brooklyn were a couple? I mean, I see Goliath as a father to Brooklyn(even though G's only 10 garg years older). It wouldn't be right for a son to date his father's former wife/girlfriend. It would be downright disgusting. Yick! If my mother was single, I could never, EVER go out with a guy that has dated my her--even if he was around my age. Would you? And to make the B/D relationship concept/idea worse, Demona had been with THAILOG before she'd been with Brooklyn. Talk about hand-me-downs. Wow, that would be quite a marketing idea. I could just see it now: "Come on down and get the all-new 'Hand-Me-Down Demona' action figure! As a bonus you get to choose between Goliath, Thailog, or Brooklyn as her perspective "partner!" Heh heh! Demona would have a different outfit for which ever pairing you choose. Heh! Anyway, I'm just glad the whole thing was a dream-sequence scheme created by Puck and not something that would actually happen in "your" Gargoyle Universe.

Dan writes...

hey greig,
I wouldn't know were this would go but I think it's more of a one on one question i guess. I've been alot of gargoyle myths and legends lately and rumors about gargoyles actually living on earth. I was wondering if you actually believed the legends, myths, and rumors? That there might have been gargoyles here thousands of years ago?

Steven L writes...

Hey,
I've asked a few questions now (kinda had to warm myself up) so I thought I might give a little background, especially considering that the ability to post is back.
My first introduction to Gargoyles was from a number of ads in Marvel comic books back in '94. Seeing as I live in Australia, it took us a while to get the series, but when we did, I managed to watch it every Saturday morning (which is quite a feat for me, considering I'm not a morning person, and never have been).
At the end of the first season, I never saw Gargoyles on Saturday morning television again. Not sure if it was because whatever channel it was on stopped broadcasting it, or because I stopped getting up early to watch cartoons. In any case, all I had was a vague memory of the show, and that I liked it at the time.
Flash forward to about a year or so ago, and Gargoyles is on the Disney Channel on cable, seven nights a week. I'd managed to learn a bit about it from the internet, and I gave it another shot. I was addicted. High production values, strong characters and imaginative story-lines. What really sucked me in was "City of Stone". I found it amazing that "Macbeth" had been used not only as source material, but that the character himself was a recurring one in what was otherwise a kid's cartoon.
So I'd really like to thank you for creating such an inspirational and imaginitive show, and say how cool it is that you afford the fans this oppurtunity to pick your brains, as it were.
I might have lost out on the show when I was a kid, but I've gotten it back in spades as...well...legally I qualify as an "adult", but the term is debatable ; )
In any case, thank you.
~A fan

Josh Wurzel writes...

Monday:

It's all over! NOOOOOOOOO! I have to say, the past four days were probably
the highlight of my entire summer. Never have I had so much fun with people I
barely knew. I made some great friends in Greg X, Revel, Mara, Aaron, Dreamie,
and Winterwolf, and met a whole bunch of people, and even (according to Jannie)
picked up a fan club.

I have only ONE complaint about the ENTIRE gathering! Yes, just one. And its
something that can easily be fixed and would cost NOTHING to fix! The name
tags! Most of us meet over the internet, and few have any idea what the other
people look like. The name tags should have our Internet handle/callsign/nickname
in LARGE letters at the TOP of the badge, with the real name in smaller letters
underneath, with the picture/artwork taking up the bottom. In other words, reverse the ratio of name space to art space on
the badge. I should be able to see someone's nickname on their badge from more than 2 feet away. It was a little awkward
feeling like I was staring at everyone's chest to see their name. "I'm reading your badge, really!"

Gathering staff? What do you guys think about that?

I got to gathering late today, as I really didn't care much about the lectures that were happening. I picked up the artwork I
bid on and watched the closing ceremonies, which was basically a brief thank-you by Greg Weisman.

After that six of us (me, aaron, mara, dreamie, winter, and warpy) piled into Wolf's rented convertible and went for lunch
at a chinese restaurant my family likes. Everyone was happy, which is good because i'd have been really embarassed if
they relied on me to be their guide and disappointed them. After lunch we drove back to the con hotel and dropped off
Warpy so he could catch a shuttle. Then we left again to find a movie theater...the first one wasn't playing the movie we
wanted to see, so we headed to my house and hung out for a while until about 7, when Evolution was playing at a nearby
theater.

During the interim at my house, Aaron and crew (esp. aaron) became very buddy-buddy with my little bro. The six of us
(including my little bro) were talking up a storm in the kitchen. How we managed to keep it at his level is amazing to me,
considering the collection of gutterminds present. He'll start posting in here soon, as soon as I set up his new machine.
He's very excited. Now, keep in mind, he's 13, so try to stay PG-13 with him 8-). When he asks what yaoi is, don't tell
him 8-).

Seeing as I was a total 5th wheel (literally, as I was with 2 couples), I selected a theater with massive love-seat style
stadium seating for my friends. The armrests move back, big comfy chairs, you get the idea. After the movie, I insisted
that they drop me off and head back to the con hotel before I got violently ill. Being a confirmed bachelor for life definitely
has its advantages, but there's always that yucky feeling I get when I see sappiness among couples.

So that pretty much concluded my gathering experience. It was a blast, and as of today I'm actually considering GOING to
Virgina, if I can pull it off (doubtful, but who knows!?).

To Revel, Mara, Aaron, Dreamie, Winterwolf, Jannie, and GXB: You guys made my gathering infinitely valuable, and its
an experience I'll treasure forever. If any of you are in my neck of the woods (although I'd not call either of the concrete
jungles I inhabit "the woods"), look me up: you've got a place to stay. ::fake sobs:: I love you guys ;-). Oh, and I'd really
like at least one of you guys to post your view of events today, as I'd like to see it from the tourists point of view. 8-)

Sadly, the people I went to the movie with know where I live and they've seen where I sleep (good luck finding your way
back, though. Buwahahaha!). Now I'll have to kill them. ;-)

The pictures, greg, are posted at www.kicktothenuts.com/gathering

Thanks, Greg.

Josh Wurzel writes...

Sunday:

So much went on today. There was a big Q&A with some of the voice talent,
including Goliath, Brooklyn/Owen/Magus, Lex, Obsidiana, and Hyena (i'm using
character names instead of real names b/c quite frankly I don't care and most
people won't recognize the names). There was an auction of garg stuff, one cell
went for $420, and some artists bible went for $300. I was part of a pool on a
Carl Johnson Garg Music CD that went for $200.

Anyone interested in borrowing money: talk to Aaron. I swear, that guy has more
money than god. I watched him outbid people just for fun.

A bunch of original artwork was displayed, I took pictures and they will be
available for download as soon as I get them off my camera and onto the internet.

Saved $53 by walking down the road to Subway instead of staying for the Banquet. I'm told all I missed was Crispin (sp?)
kissing Thom Adcox.

The costume contest was...interesting. My personal favorite was Aaron and Shinigami, who dressed up as Fox and David,
RESPECTIVELY. They won the Gorebash cross-dressing award. Best couple award went to Thom and Crispin. Dreamie
and Winterwolf did this cute commando thing where they hijacked Thom and demanded his boxers, leading Thom to drop
his pants in the middle of the dance floor. Thom dropped trou again while dancing later. Greg Weissman made numerous
comments about "any excuse to take your pants off, huh Thom!?"

I didn't get anything signed because, quite frankly, the only stuff that goes up in value when signed is sports memorabilia. I
mean, who outside the fandom knows who Greg Weissman is?!

I got some great pictures of CR members and other stuff, also to be posted soon.

Josh Wurzel writes...

Saturday:

Another great day at the Gathering.

Lets see, what'd I do today. Well I went to a bunch of different seminars about
writing, storyboarding, etc. Saw the radio play, which was SOOOO funny. Greg
revealed that the second episode after "The Journey" was to be a 22-minute porn
scene between Goliath and Elisa. Spent some time watching "Best of Gargoyles",
and a bunch of time in the art room hanging out with other TGS CR members.

A special apology to Jannie and Denis, who I left out of my list of people I met
yesterday (aka the list of people I strongly suspect exist).

Oh, and I've confirmed the existence of Todd Jensen. Although he doesn't APPEAR to be a cat, his conversational skills
make me wonder if he's a cat in a human costume.

Spent a large chunk of the day in just blabbing with Warpy, Aaron, Mara, Lynati, Dreamie, and Winterwolf (who, in case
you haven't figured out, is Dreamie's other half - I think), Revel, and GXB. Its a lot of fun hanging out with CR people, as
we all know a bit about each other's history and personalities, its not at all like meeting completely new people.

I'm finding out that I've pissed off a lot of people unintentionally. I mean, it probably seemed provoking, but since I don't
remember doing it, I obviously wasn't being malicious. I remember that kind of stuff. So that said, an apology to Jennifer
Anderson (sp?). Its quite interesting being introduced to someone and having them say "can I kick your ass now?"

Josh Wurzel writes...

I see you were looking for gathering essays. Since Aaron posted his, I thought I'd follow suit. These were posted in the TGS CR.

Friday:

Greg X and Revel say: NEENEER NEENEER NEEEEEENER! WE'RE AT
GATHERING AND YOU'RE NOT!!!

Everyone else says: Does anyone have a computer?

Gathering rocks. Loving every minute of it. The following people are now on my
list of those I STRONGLY suspect exist: Winterwolf, Dreamie, Dreamie's
Boyfriend (much to everyone's chagrin, though I discovered today that I could
care less), Revel, Greg X, Lynati, Warpmind, Christine, Tim, Becca, Lexy, Greg
Weisman, Thom Adcox, Coyote, Ravyn, Daniel Johnson, Aaron, Mara,
Guandalug, Patrick Toman, Kathy, CrzyDemona

Cute chicks: Okay, I'm an california boy, so you can imagine my standards are pretty high/picky. So you can imagine I
don't think there are any "Perfect 10's" at the Gathering. As it is, there are a few cuties. They are: Sorow, Dreamie, Ylla
(sp?). Just so you guys who aren't there know that I'm looking. Pictures to be posted soon.

The following people MAY exist: SJ, Robby, Gside, DPH. I suspect that they aren't at Gathering because they really are
someone else who's already there (robby-aaron, sj-me, etc).

Its really cool meeting all these people in real life, some of them are even cool in real life. But I have to say, I've been from
one end of California to the other. I've been to Santa Monica, West LA, and Berkeley. I've seen a lot of weird stuff. But
I've never seen a freak show quite like the Gathering crew, and I'm a weekly attendee of the rocky horror picture show.
That says a lot.

Greg Weisman showed us a sketch for his "bad guys" series, which was pretty funny, and he also showed us preliminary
story arcs for New Olympians and Dark Ages. Too bad he never got to make any of this stuff. If I were king...

I went to a panel group that included Christine and Mara, and learned a few tips for improving my fic...it may see the
black of the fic archive yet.

Then we MiSTed the gargoyles eps "The Gathering", where I demonstrated to the 20 people in attendance that I do, in
fact, have quite the guttermind ("The Puck has played many roles, but never that of straight man" "Yes, puck, we know
you've never been a straight man!"). But MiSTing gargoyles episodes it more fun than I can shake a really big stick at.
Even though they are the bane of our fandom, I really would enjoy MiSTing the TGC episodes.

Ian writes...

Aren't Shan's well written questions just a delight to read?

Shan writes...

The following is in response to a question you answered for me.

Greg wrote:

Claw was mute. Renard was confined to a wheelchair. I'm not tooting my own horn here, I just think that maybe you're overlooking characters because they fit so naturally into the series that you forgot they were disabled.

Shan responds:

I'm beyond exhausted at the moment, so other than Garrett from the show I worked on I can't think of anyone else who has have appeared in every other show (except Brutto if ROUGHNECKS continued). I think you may be right about characters at the supporting level -- the Robbins and Renards of the animated universe -- but most do seem to be one shots, sometimes even in storylines where their disability is "repaired" by the end of the episode (such as an injury-created blindness that surgery or something else corrects), which usually seems a cop-out. IMNSHO.

And while I do like Renard, particularly as Fox's father, he is older than most of the characters we're talking about and from what Puck shows with his images in "Gathering Part Two," wasn't always in a chair, was he? (Again, beyond exhaustion, I might be wrong) It's a combination of age and illness, or at least that's the impression I've had. But then again, Robbins was blinded in Viet Nam and he's even younger. Showing ability with disability at all ages and stages of life -- and that it isn't always congenital -- is a good thing.

I have no clue why this is such a personal springboard for me, but I'm not embarrassed about it. I can tell you it predates my seizure disorder (circa 1992). On that note, I know that seizures are usually used to comic effect in film and TV and living it isn't funny to me. I close my eyes and let it be though. I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't do. I just don't have to like it.

(Now jumping off soapbox...)

Greg also wrote:

I also would love to do a hearing impaired animated character with Marlee Matlin doing the voice. She used to come into Rockets and I once had such a big crush on her that I swore that if she came in one more time, I'd ask her to marry me. (She must have sensed that cause she never came back.)

Shan replies:

:) If you did the character as a lip-reader, it would probably work in limited animation. Sign language is a whole different ball of wax, though I do know I saw it done once as a kid (I want to say on DEFENDERS OF THE EARTH, but I am so tired right now). Christy Marx and I talked about this waaaay back when I first met her, though it's become public knowledge on the TRULY OUTRAGEOUS! JEM Mailing List over the years. Hasbro had Christy developing a JEM feature that never really went past treatment since the TRANSFORMERS and GI JOE movies did so poorly. They were going to have a deaf girl in that movie, which was integral to the plot. Later on, Christy had dinner with a woman who taught her there are many variants of sign language; ASA (American Sign Language) is just one of several so it might not be understood well in some markets that aren't familiar with ASA and thereby not translate internationally. Also the complexity of the hand gestures just might not come out right in limited animation. So she told me at that time she wasn't sure if it ultimately would have worked out it.

Just FYI...

Shan writes...

Ian>Um... thank you, I think, for complementing my questions. (I was passing through to see what other questions had been posted as long as I was online and saw your comment).

Greg>I hope my questions better exemplify your preferences, but you and I both know I can be error prone on occasion. I can think of instances both where I was your student and not proofing myself well enough as an interviewer (the latter being the greater embarrassment) where that was the case.

(And I just had to go look up embarrassment. I always have to stop and think about the "r"s and "s"s...)

Todd Jensen writes...

One thing that I thought that I'd mention here today, now that the question queue has gotten started up again, is on Goliath's smashing the Praying Gargoyle and foiling Operation Clean Slate in "Hunter's Moon".

I think that it's obvious to us all that Goliath was taking a big risk there, since if Demona had smashed the vial after that, all the gargoyles would have died alongside all the humans. But I wonder how many of us have noticed something else, that foiling Demona's genocide scheme entirely (as indeed happened here) could be almost as fatal to the gargoyle race. After all, at this point, the existence of gargoyles has been revealed to the world, and the public wasn't too thrilled with that. At the time that Goliath was confronting Demona, St. Damien's Cathedral was surrounded by an angry crowd practically howling for the gargoyles' blood, which was even prepared to charge in vigilante-style if the police didn't do anything. And even afterwards, as we saw in "The Journey", the public attitude towards gargoyles remained hostile; people were eagerly joining the Quarrymen when Castaway set it up, Margot Yale was openly calling for the capture and incarceration of the entire species on television, etc. We know, of course, from your "Gargoyles 2198" announcement that eventually humans do learn to recognize gargoyles' right to exist, and that by 2198, the days of near-universal attempts on humanity's part to hunt down and kill gargoyles are over - but Goliath, obviously, couldn't have known that.

I don't know whether Goliath had time to realize when he smashed the Praying Gargoyle (he took action extremely quickly, after all) that he was thus potentially endangering his species twice over, and that by saving humanity he was potentially dooming his race to brutal massacres (and I'm sure that even if he did know it, he'd have felt that there are just certain things that you have to do that are more important than mere survival and that wiping out one race so that another can survive is wrong - not to mention that he also knew that not all humans were crazed anti-gargoyle zealots), but I still think that that action of his was probably one of the most courageous and altruistic deeds that he performed in the entire series. I just thought that I'd give my thoughts on that here.

Virginia writes...

Are you going to be able to make any kind of art gallery in the near future? I love your work and would be interested to be able to purchase picutres from the gargoyle and Max Steel series. My 3 year old son loves the show too, btw.

Punchinello writes...

Mr. Weisman,

I'm sorry I did not acknowledge your response before now. I only realized that you had addressed my post on sentience a moment ago.

I did not really think that you condoned the obliteration of a family of polar bears (anthropomorphic or otherwise). I was raising the issue because I think I am observing a trend wherein people are only assigning value to a life based upon an inference of anthropomorphism. That is to say, some people are investing their ethical concern in something based upon how much it resembles a human being; and this is hardly an objective premise to begin with. Semblance to human beings, mental or otherwise, can not constitute a requirement for being worthy of consideration or protection. However I do believe that it is reasonable to assign values based upon certain criteria from within our own perspectives (it's the only thing we can assign values from) as long as we make a concerted effort to avoid an obviously centrist sentiment like using ourselves as a template for what is worth consideration.

If someone were to ask me what criteria I thought were appropriate, I would probably return to what has already been implied. Intelligence. Emotional intuition. Volition. And a whole host of perceptual characteristics. Those things from which emerge a picture of mental life. Perhaps an ability to suffer and to anticipate conditions which cause or alleviate suffering, and to desire to distance ones self from a cause of it. However, if we are going to determine the presence of those capacities with nothing but purely verifiable data, then we fall in league with the evolutionary psychologists foundation of mental within the biological. And the biological machinery necessary to mediate these abilities is certainly not the exclusive domain of Homo Sapiens. (I _do_ subscribe to the evolutionary psychologist foundation by the way. I like to have data I can verify beyond "it is true because it is so.")

For a lot of people though, these emergent mental properties are always considered as something transcendent of biology, immeasurable, even inviolate, because I have observed others react with hostility to the reduction of mental qualities to biology. On numerous occasions. Thinking that way leads to all kinds of misunderstandings, however. Another contributor to this board, Entity, had taken the position that humans and gorillas were intelligent but dogs were not. I found this extremely interesting because even outside the realm of biological architectures in the brain I could use as a foundation for taking the evolutionary psychologist position, it needs to be acknowledged that even within social psychology dogs are attributed a measurable intelligence. It's not extraordinary. My dog has an IQ of 12 or so for instance. And of course these kinds of figures are disputable, because it really requires the participation of the test subject past his simple presence to get accurate results. I would submit that the whole concept of IQ as it is accepted within the social sciences borders on being fraudulent anyway. The point is that the ascription of non-intelligence that was made about the dog was arbitrary. It was not informed by the physical _or_ social sciences. It was just an assumption. And that kind of casual valuization can be dangerous when it functions as the basis for how much respect we offer another. This is not a slight against this Entity. I'm just using this as an example to outline the stated purpose of my original post. If people are going to hold these positions they maintain, then they need to ask themselves why they have that particular belief. If they have this mental dialogue with themselves and they cannot answer that first question, then it is time to evaluate how much their beliefs represent reality.

____________________________________________________________________________
I'm probably as guilty as anyone of overusing, or rather overbilling the issue of "sentience". I think the concept has its uses. But it's probably used as a crutch too often.
____________________________________________________________________________

I would agree. I think of it as a crutch of language. Some people subscribe to an ideology that is a holdover from religious impulses. It maintains that the mantle of "human" is sacred and unapproachable. They need to define what the quality of "human" is that makes it thus, without any background knowledge of cognitive science so that it fits their sensibilities. They can adopt the hazily defined expression, "sentience", imported from popular culture, via star trek, to articulate their position. For some others, the mental capacities of non human animals may be very well understood. They may acknowledge capacities for reflection and emotion, but they still need a convenient means of distinguishing various abilities. So an imprecise language becomes common.

Punchinello writes...

I just reviewed what I have written here. It's so formal it's almost offensive. I'm sorry. I don't think one can talk about issues like this without sounding (obtuse? Stuffy? Something like that.) And not a word about Gargoyles.

Let me leave the realm of animal intelligence's for a minute and consider the intelligence of some of the more fantastical characters in your story. The fae. When I think about this kind of (ethereal?) character, these are the kinds of associations that I make.

-The thought of angels moves faster than human thought. (I don't recall where that comes from)

-A four dimensional object or being will cast a three dimensional shadow. (That's an observation Buckminster Fuller made.)

-A being that cannot die will have no concept of death, and certainly will not attach values, positive or negative, to the ending of a life. (This is a condensed and bastardized summary of some of the speculation of extraterrestrial intelligence's that participants of the SETI program publicized.)

I hope some of the above makes sense. My thinking is this. That the content of fae thought/mentality may be fundamentally different from homo sapiens thinking. Not just an accelerated or enhanced analogue of human thought, but structurally different. Our mental world is the emergent condition of innumerable biological systems interacting with one another. I have no reason to conclude that the fae's intelligence emerges from anything reductionist in nature. It is a condition that exists without origin in biology (potentially). Everything that we think of as intelligence rests on an evolutionary foundation of connections to allow us to successfully distinguish between things we can eat and things that will eat us. It would be absurd to think that the fae (who I don't think were subject to natural selection through predation) would have an intelligence structured upon the same principles. Simple alternative concepts like "either or" may not have the same meaning to them. This could go far towards explaining why they are so damned irritating.

My second thought on the matter, in reference to the three dimensional shadow concept, is that the visual representation we get of the fae in the story may be a poor representation of the reality. I use the concept of a hypothetical four dimensional being to illustrate. A two dimensional being could be aware of my presence if I allowed it to, although it would be a simple matter to remove myself from it's perception with a minor movement. However it's awareness could not give it a complete representation of what I am. It could only understand me as a fragment that can be translated into something comprehensible within the context of it's world. I can easily attribute an extra dimensional quality to beings like Oberon and Puck who seem o appear and disappear at will. We might not be able to understand completely, what they are. Only that the portion of them that is represented in three dimensions resembles a group of tall, angular, oddly complexioned people in period costume.

My third observation of the fae, and in particular of Oberon who has demonstrated a dispassionate distance to killing his rivals in certain instances, is that he may have no concept of murder because he may have no concept of death. (Yes I know that he reacted to the iron bell in such a way that would indicate it was harmful to him. Even lethal.) However, even if he were to express a concept of death we would not be able to be certain that his concept was anything like our concept. Does death mean an end for him? If it does not, then the gravity we attach to it may be lost on him and the other fae.

I think my point is that while it would certainly not be appropriate to think of a creature like this in human terms, i'm not even certain you can extrapolate "human" from him. There could be creatures, so far removed from human experience that it would be impossible. Of course, the associations that I make with the fae are not going to be the same ones that you make. Your concept of them may fall within human experience. You have other creatures though. Your space spawn. They would certainly have been subject to mental dispositions grounded in a different biology. We're conditioned with the genetic remainders of our hunter gatherer ancestors. They would be conditioned with something else. I dont know what. Something spawny probably.

Punchinello writes...

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It brings me to another distinction: the one between sentience and artificial intelligence. Coyote, for instance, can throw a zinger, but is he self-aware? I don't think he is. Xanatos hasn't achieved (or would wish to achieve) that much, has he?
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I don't know anything about computer technology past it's relationship to cognitive studies into artificial intelligence. There is a lot of dispute about the possibility of an actual computer intelligence. I'm not competent to say if the possibility is real but I would not discount it. I can see numerous avenues for foundations for intelligence besides the neurochemical variety. Incidentally, I once took a Turing test...and failed. I was delighted.

Todd Jensen writes...

Many mythological scholars believe that in the early days of the myths, humanity was matriarchal, worshipping some sort of "Great Goddess"-figure, but as time went on, it underwent a shift to a more patriarchal culture, producing male gods such as Zeus who toppled the "Great Goddess" and replaced her. Did such theories (assuming that you're aware of them) influence your vision of Oberon overthrowing his mother Mab and replacing her?