Entity writes...

I'd just like to say that the Magus' death is, I think, the strongest moment in GARGOYLES. The Magus is loved by every fan, and it's because of all the humanity you were able to instill in him in about five minutes of screen time. His tragic love for Katherine coupled with his guilt which almost seems biblical by this point in the series, and the enchanting setting of Avalon, all make the Magus into... I don't even know! Just recalling his final moments brings tears to my eyes. That trembling finger. And his reaction to Goliath's thanks is heart-swelling. He simply doesn't comprehend how Goliath could be thankful to him and it's too much. Good job.

Blaise writes...

SHADOWS OF THE PAST

And so the World Tour truly begins.
Right off I'll say I agree that the numerous reruns did little to help the appeal of the "long absence from home." This might have been allieviated a litte if KINGDOM had been able to air when it was intended (it didn't, at least not on my stations, and prolonged the absence of the Trio and Hudson). I also think that AVALON PART THREE might have been a good "chapter break" (for lack of a better term) for reruns until the majority of the WT eps were finished. But then, I'm just a struggling actor, what do I know?
At any rate, I felt it fitting that Wyvern should be the first stop. Visiting the place where everything started, and bringing some closure (at least for Goliath) to an immense part of the clan's history. I love how he says, "It's home! My home." In terms of both dialogue and acting, it's very well done.
I also instantly liked Angela's mention of the weather in Avalon. A very nice bit of fleshing out (both for character and universe) that felt completely natural.
I'll say right now that I love the animation here, too. Granted, about half-way through the first act Angela's eyes seem to change size/shape and it drives me a little nuts, but overall it's just fantastic. I'm glad you and Frank stuck to you guys' guns, Greg, and made sure things like the cliffside and Elisa's wardrobe remained consistant. Shows the dedication.
I always noticed the awkward (sp?) moment between Elisa and Angela when Goliath instantly starts climbing the cliff. I don't think Elisa had been expecting this, but I believe she understands.
Goliath's description of all his old haunts--the Rookery (I just love the line "I was hatched here" for some reason), the caves--are just so wonderful. Detailed and told with the weight of one visiting a past lifetime almost.
Hakon's axe: I was always torn between seeing it as the same one as in VENDETTAS, because that's just what GARGOYLES would do, and a different one because it only had one blade. I suppose the "eldritch, spectral energy" of Hakon may have reformed it, though. But yeah, a mace (THE mace, in fact) would have been just ripping. Practical and symbolic at the same time, with so much emotional resonance.
But on with the show. I liked how Goliath admits he still wanted revenge. Very in character, and realistic. It sounds like he's admitting it as much to himself as to Angela and Elisa. I wonder if that (coupled with hearing her voice) made Goliath think a little about what Demona had become. Or I might be going overboard here. Don't hesitate to say so.
The "old wounds" line--yeah, that's another one I liked right off as well.
Then Goliath sees Hakon and the Captain (or thinks he does) and instantly attacks. I'm not sure if, during my initial viewing, I thought Goliath was going insane. I think I picked up that Bronx was sensing something and so was prepared for something more supernatural. Or maybe not--like I said, I can't remember. Still, I think Goliath may have gone a *little* insane when he instantly attacked Elisa/Hakon and Angela/Captain without wondering how those two got there. Just shows that even the strongest rock can crack given enough pressure in just the right areas.
The glowing...blobs, floating in the air. Yeah, by that time I think I pretty much knew what was going on, a suspicion that was confirmed when Desdemona, Demona and Othello turned into Hakon and the Captain when Goliath wasn't looking their way.
Keith did a lot of good line readings for Goliath when he begins to doubt his sanity, but one of my favorites is "I can't trust what I see!" The pain and frustration conveyed by Mr. David is wonderful there.
I love it when Hakon's ghost comes flying right at the camera (Goliath's POV) with glowing eyes and mouth while Clancy Brown gives that great, gurggling-sort of yell. That was pretty cool/creepy.
I always wince when Bronx bites G in the arm to keep him from falling. Very painful, but you have to admire the pooch's determination. As well as Elisa's when she decides to climb down after her falling (more than) friend. I always liked the contrast between Angela's shocked reaction and Elisa's strong decision.
Goliath's fall is well done, and I'm glad it took him two tries to really stop himself.
The Captain always does seem to be the dissenting opinion against Hakon. Even before the Captain demands an end to Goliath's torture, he gives Goliath the credit of suspecting their plan. Maybe, deep down in the bottom of his...ectoplasym, the Captain was hoping Goliath would escape.
The rock zombies. :) Yes, their final "death" was cool and creepy, with their disintegration, but their original integration, with the pieces seeming to literally fall upward into place was also pretty neat in my book. Their sounds were good, too, with some of those weird high pitched roars and the double voices (were those both Ed Gilbert and Clancy Brown?). I also liked the look of "Hakon's Gargoyle" with the large nose.
Then they bring "Demona" out and everything (literally) goes to pieces. I loved the hand turning into a mace, BTW. Very cool.
The energy transfer. Maybe the fact that the Captian seemed rather gloating when he described to Goliath what would happen made his chage of heart seem to come out of left field. At any rate, I'm glad that when it came to getting what he thought he wanted, the Captain realized it wasn't really. As for Hakon, he's a jerk but the utter joy in his voice at being able to feel again is rather disarming. If he weren't a bad guy he'd be almost sympathetic. With Goliath, I like how he chooses to win this fight, not by taking out Hakon but by reasoning with the Captain (even when the process begins, his first impluse is to remind the Captain who had wronged whom). And even if the Captain's decision to attack Hakon seemed a bit sudden, it frankly made more sense to me. Hell, it was the only right way! The Captain was woefully misguided yes, but he wasn't the evil that was Hakon.
"LINES of power!" That's what Hakon was saying! I finally get it now.
The megalith dance was pretty cool all around (concept and execution), but, frankly, it almost gets overshadowed by the character interaction going on around/inside it.
Then, after the destruction, Goliath again describes the Captian as a friend (and again, Mr. David puts great emotion into that line). And then we see the Captain appear one final time. And yes...my first thought was that he looks younger than before. Maybe just less care-worn. At any rate, he has a truly heavenly type of exit. Beautiful.
I like how Goliath answers the question of what happened to Hakon. "He has made his fate, Angela, whatever it might be." I just love that line, and have seen how it could be applied to all sorts of people and incidents. And it just seems right that Goliath would say something like that.
And then we see Hakon. I don't know if I would have preferred seeing Hakon stay there. I suppose I knew, deep down, that a bad guy like him can't stay locked away forever. However, I must say that, IMHO, there's something inherently scary about complete stagnation. Even though we don't know where he finally went to after VENDETTAS, he at least moved on. To be trapped (inside a rock of all places) in complete solitude...with no guarantee of "moving on" before the "end of creation" seems to me to be a singularly scary prospect. Still, it's nice contrasting the spectral Captain's final passing here with Hakon's later on.
For me, this was an excellent start to the World Tour.

Todd Jensen writes...

Here's my ramble on "Shadows of the Past".

First off, of course, this is where the Avalon World Tour begins (if you don't count the "Avalon" triptych), which makes it a biggie. I agree with you that the reruns in between the three instalments of it (which aired, as I recall, in November-December 1995, February 1996, and May 1996 - more or less) make the World Tour seem longer than it really was. (Incidentally, you're right that you were able to bring out more than 18 episodes of "Gargoyles" in the September-December period; I remembered that the "fall run" ended with "Grief", and so worked out that it was 30 new episodes during that period).

As I mentioned before, I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour, and agree with you that something like that was necessary for the series at some point (especially in bringing in enough other gargoyles to make it feasible for the species to survive and recover - as I've mentioned here before, something along the lines of the World Tour was probably the only realistic way for Goliath to discover that there were gargoyles left in other parts of the world, given that he couldn't simply hop on board the next flight from New York to London or Japan).

Angela's correct (from the original legends perspective) about it always being summer on Avalon; in fact, I remember that the old Welsh legends about Avalon (or, more accurately, its "literary predecessors") called it the Summer Country or the Region of the Summer Stars.

In hindsight from "Vendettas", I picked up on the significance of that axe that Goliath unearths - and agree with you now that Hakon's mace from the Wyvern Massacre would indeed have worked better. Too late for that now, though.

I also liked that line (which I considered very poetic) of Elisa's about "old wounds".

The Captain and Hakon's tormenting of Goliath was very effective - probably the creepiest part, in my opinion, was when Angela and Elisa appear in Goliath's eyes to be the Captain and Hakon - but then we hear Angela and Elisa's voices coming from the Captain and Hakon's mouths.

The Captain of the Guard's change of heart worked for me (again, I especially liked the bit that you mentioned where he's looking troubledly at his hands as he and Hakon solidify). In fact, it made sense in view of his role in "Awakening" - he'd never wanted the clan massacred, and was horrified as to how that had gone wrong. I might add that Hakon showed, again, just how creepy he is when he gets into the fight with Goliath and begins laughing as his fists pass through Goliath - the reason for that being now, not that Hakon's insubstantial and Goliath solid, but the other way around.

Incidentally, the Captain actually appears better-looking in the scene where he's giving Goliath his thanks, just before he ascends.

And I'll confess that I'm one of those who would have preferred Hakon to have remained trapped in the cave for all time - I felt, when "Vendettas" aired, that it destroyed some of the effectiveness, in retrospect, of Hakon's sentence: trapped alone for eternity, with nobody at hand for him to hate. (Also, "Vendettas" felt anticlimactic on the Hakon front; in "Shadows of the Past", he battles Goliath by skillfully undermining him with a lot of psychological subtlety; in "Vendettas", he's reduced to simply fighting him in a slugfest with a big dumb werewolf - though don't tell Wolf that I called him that. :) ). But I do think that you made a good point about how, ultimately, Hakon would have to be given more permanent resolution than just that.

Incidentally, your treatment of the megalith that the Captain and Hakon were using, and your comments on it, make me wonder now how you would have handled Stonehenge if you'd ever gotten to do an episode involving it (especially since you mentioned having had plans to send King Arthur and Griff there during their quest for Merlin) - a pity that we may never know the answer to that now.

Petronius the Younger writes...

Hi, I have really enjoyed your ramblings, even though I haven't posted any of mine until now. Your "That's my ramble, where's yours?" line finally brought me to write one. :)

Avalon

After City of Stone, I was really looking forward to another multi-parter. It's quite amazing to me that with all the expectations, they never fail to deliver, even now.

Seeing Tom as the Guardian was quite a surprise. You almost never see characters age in cartoons. Seeing Tom go from the chubby cheeked little kid to an old man is quite a shock.

The middle age parts were excellent, as always. The transition from Wyvern to Edinburgh was very natural. It must have been the 4th or 5th time that the scenes right after the massacre. It's interesting to see it from different character's perspective each time.

The ending though was kind of a downer. I didn't like the fight between the characters too much, too cliched I thought. It seems strange that so much focus was put on Arthur, and then when he is awaken, he is just another foot soldier who fights Macbeth. Obviously Macbeth is a formidable character, but I was expecting something a bit more out of King Arthur, like taking on the archmage. Then that leaves Goliath who has to pull the eye of odin out of the archmage, which was kind of a bummer from all the focus on Archmage's powers.

The magus's death scene was really touching, one of the top moments in the show. I too wondered if he was really dead, but I figured that it was a way to leave it up in the air so as to leave for some creative wiggle room. I was very happy to read what you wrote on that subject. It put that subject to rest and was how I thought should be. Thanks.

Todd Jensen writes...

"Avalon Part Three" ramble.

I really liked this episode as well, especially with King Arthur being brought in. (And in my case, I was familiar with the "Pendragon" part of his name long before "Gargoyles" came out, and was both pleased and impressed that it was incorporated into the episode).

I may be biased (being a King Arthur fan), but I do look upon Elisa's awakening of King Arthur as one of the grand moments of her career; she actually restores to the world one of the most famous legendary heroes of all time. (One other note that occurs to me; Elisa isn't of British ancestry, which does fit in with your intention that Arthur's new destiny, after leaving Avalon, would ultimately lie outside Britain, and upon a larger stage).

The Magus might be old, but he was clearly still tough; Elisa had trouble keeping up with him all the way to the Hollow Hill.

I very much enjoyed the Magus's character development here, including his guilt over his hasty curse a thousand years before, his shouldering the responsibility for it without complaint or excuses, and his unrequited love for Princess Katharine. He really did become a sympathetic figure here.

(Incidentally, in light of your original idea of having him accompany Arthur - the Magus really does look much like the way that Merlin is often conventionally depicted in Arthurian art - except that his beard's shorter than Merlin's beard in the conventional representations of him. And, for that matter, although he doesn't leave with Arthur in the actual story, he's laid to rest on Arthur's sleeping place at the end).

I'm probably one of the extremely few "Gargoyles" fans who *didn't* think that that flashback scene with the hatchlings was taking place in the daytime. I always viewed it as being at night (it looked dark enough to me, in fact). I'd always assumed that the fans who thought that it was daytime were mentally merging it with the daytime flashback scenes where the hatchlings aren't present.

I liked the battle scene, including the choice of pairings, which struck me as appropriate ones (particularly Arthur versus Macbeth), and also the bit where the Archmage and Goliath are teleporting all about with the Phoenix Gate. (One possible nit here, though, is Princess Katharine being able to pick up so quickly on how to operate a laser cannon, given that back when she lived in the outside world, they were using bows and arrows and hadn't dreamed up even conventional fire-arms. But I think that the scene where she defeats Demona with it makes up for that nit).

The Magus's death: I agree that it's a tragic and moving moment. On the other hand, I've long felt that the fact that Goliath is able to forgive the Magus before he dies, and show him that what he'll be remembering him for is raising the hatchlings rather than cursing the clan, makes a good consolation for the old man.

I was excited to see Arthur also leaving Avalon, and hoped that we'd see more of his adventures in the series (and was right, even though it was just one episode and that spin-off never got made).

And I don't quite know what I was expecting when Tom called out at the end that "Avalon sends you where you need to me", but I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour when it came.

And thanks for the latest ramble, Greg.

Ancient Kaa The Souless writes...

My ramble of Avalon 2

Avalon 1-2-3 are among my best Gargoyles' episodes. However, 2 was always my favorite of the three, so I'll just talk about this one.

The exchanges between Archmage and Archmage+ were amazing. Funny too, specially:

- I could put you back where I found you. - No, no, no, no. (extra no added by me :-) )

- Are we going to take the grimoire from her now? - Weren't you listening?! (the background music really play well along with this line :-) )

- What am I supposed to do, eat it?! - You are learning.

- 900 and 75 years?! (it only takes a frown from Archmage+ to shut him up :-) )

- Then they must DIE!! - EXACLTY!! (OK I am saditic, so sue me)

David Warner stole the show. Love the new oufit of Archmage+. He also seem like he is having pointed ears.

In the early script, we now get to know the missing scenes from the Archamge flashbacks (FINALLY!). Wonder what our two Archmages would have worn in modern clothes :-)

The whole scene with the arifacts being given to Archmage was great. We also see that he isn't very polite and very rude: he just snatch the relic without saying "thanks".

My only complaint is that the assault on the castle didn't last long enough. But I still very love that episode. I'm just sorry Archamge+ be gone after ep 3. (Save for some flashbacks, Timedancer...)

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART THREE

One thing I forgot to mention in my thoughts on Part Two (and it's still relevant because it was featured in the recap): the Archmage's devouring of the Grimorum. I, too, found that a great image, and a nice way of sidestepping the "no magics" rule. Not to mention I love the little "[gulp] Ah..." the Archmage does.
Anyway, onto the fight.
When the folks at the palace decide to check out the Sleeping King, and Tom prepares to go, the Magus looks at Katharine's worried face and then volunteers to go instead. Yet another something I had to watch several times before I could fully appreciate it.
Angela and Gabriel check out the grotto (is that what it's called?). I like it when Demona jabs the laser rifle in Angela's ribs, and the younger gargoyle's first reaction is to elbow Gabriel and say "Stop it!" It was cool how Goliath temporarily overrode Macbeth and Demona's mind control by "appealing to their better natures," and then how the Archmage so easily reasserted his control. He had become quite a bit more powerful here, afterall. And then, of course, once things turn sour, and one of his enemies tries to take the Eye, the Archmage loses his cool and decides to start attacking NOW. His lines here are pretty neat and chilling ("They're my creatures now," and "...if they are so *eager* to *DIE*!" are ones I rather like, too).
It never ceases to amaze me how the Magus, a 72 year-old scholarly type, is able to make Elisa, a 27 year-old athletic type, ask him to slow down. I like Magus' line about being used to traveling alone, and how Elisa's mention of "the Princess and the Guardian" is contrasted with the Magus calling them "Katharine and Tom." His story was both a surprise and heartbreak to me--I had really thought from AVALON PART ONE that he would "get the girl" as most heroes do. As I said then (three weeks ago), the Magus had never looked quite so heroic. I had disliked him quite a bit in AWAKENING ONE and TWO, yet by the end of his appearance in TWO, his remorse kind of mitigated my disdain for him. In the first part of AVALON I really got to like him--you could see the depth of his feeling for Katharine, and his resolve and cunning with the way he saved the eggs and all. In PART TWO he showed how weak he felt without his magic book, and here...well by this time, the Magus had become a character I really liked and sympathized with.
Perhaps that's one reason that I became pretty much goggle-eyed upon learning that Katharine had fallen in love with Tom and vice versa. Then again, I did (and to some extent still do) suffer from a sort of "agism in male and female relationships." Of course, for that reason, I also applaud the princess and the pauper getting together simply because it now becomes a bit more unique. And I love the baby gargoyles!
BTW, Greg: rest assured that Elisa's lips were corrected in later airings, and on my tape the scene with the baby gargs actually looks more like a night scene (don't ask me how, maybe it's just my tape).
The Hollow Hill sequence was cool! I loved the Magus' spellcasting (now he has to ryhme like an Oberati), though I was of course confused until the Magus explained how he was able to do that. The "leap of faith"...Indy Jones, yeah, but I like how Elisa looked jumping.
And then the pillar lowers with (to me) some guy on it. She walks up to him, and says his name, "Arthur Pendragon..." It was at about that point that my jaw hit the floor and my eyes became as big as the moon. This was something I had not been expecting (due to my unfamiliarity with Arthur's "death") and as such became a huge, and enjoyable surprise to me.
I also like his presentation to the rest of the good guys. Until Elisa mentioned it, I had never realized that Goliath had never truly beaten Demona or Macbeth. I really liked this--it made them seem even more dangerous than before. And of course, King Arthur Pendragon, the legendary hero, reveals that he hasn't the slightest idea "what's going on." A funny moment that shows that, though legendary, Arthur is still a human.
I like how the Archmage looks when he says "I will wait here...for Goliath." An uber-villain look without a doubt.
Arthur's taking command of the situation and showing his strategist side is a nice scene (and he later proves that he is indeed a great warrior as well), and I noticed right away how (thematically) well paired off the adversaries were.
I think I'll follow your lead, Greg, and divide them up:
Arthur and Macbeth: The way Macbeth had spoken of Arthur in LIGHTHOUSE, this battle was only to be expected. I didn't mind Arthur's "manner of magic" as oppossed to "sorcery" (a little variety is alright in my book). I was surprised at Macbeth's sucker-kick when it took down Arthur. *That* part of the cliffhanger--Macbeth's sword at Arthur's throat--really got me (they were all tense, but Mac had the greatest warrior in legend at sword point!). Of course, Arthur still manages to defeat Macbeth (marvelously, I might add) with that oh-so-cool image of his ringed fist heading straight for Macbeth's face (the camera).
Demona vs. half the cast: I guess it says something that Demona needs THAT many people to take her down. One thing I love about this fight is how badly Gabriel's wings get torn up. The poor guy really gets battle damage here. Another moment--the gargoyles on the battlements fire arrows point blank at Demona...and MISS COMPLETELY!! "Not prepared...never honed combat skills" indeed! And then Demona goes after Elisa. I wonder if maybe somewhere in Demona's ensorcelled brain she sees this as a rematch of their previous hand-to-hand in HIGH NOON. Eventually, Katharine gets into the act in a very unexpected way. A bit of a stretch with her firing the gun perhaps, but still kind of fun.
The Magus vs the Sisters: I never caught the full meaning of Luna's "There is no future for you," but somehow I knew that the Magus was going to die in this battle. Something about his character, the tragedy and struggling. It made sense to me, from the moment he said "Leave them to me" about facing the Sisters, that he would die fighting them. His use of the magic is extrodinary, and I liked how the Sisters became outraged by his using Avalon's power. I also love Phoebe's fearful "Where is the Sleeping King?" when the Sisters finally make it into the Hollow Hill. And then the Magus casts his last spell. To be honest, I thought he was "all dead" when his hand went limp and fell backward onto the beir (sp?). I was actually kind of glad that we had a little bit more time with him afterwards.
Goliath and the Archmage (and Angela): This was a big one for me. The Archmage is pretty much the oldest adversary of the Wyvern Clan (with the possible exception of Iago). There is a sort of "epic" quality here with the way the Archmage and Goliath talk to each other (A: "I've waited a millenium for this." G: "You lose again, Archmage"--how many times have superheroes said that last one to their archfoes?). I remember wondering how Goliath was going to get out of this, until Angela showed up. One of my favorite scenes in this ep is when the Archmage freezes the lake, Goliath sinks out of sight as the Archmage laughs, and then the Archmage's eyes go wide as Goliath shoots up from the depths, giving a gurgling roar, and leaps through the ice. Finally, Goliath removes the Eye and the Archmage almost seems like he will continue being a threat. Then he gets incinerated by "magic energy" and dissolves in a cool death scene. Count me as another one who thinks the final line of the Archmage is pretty cool. There is a sort of sense of that "epic" quality coming to an end here. Goliath has defeated what was (as far as we know) the first true arch-villain he had ever encountered. There could be a world of meaning within his "It is over." And then the Archmage's scrying pool, as if to spite them, displays the dying Magus.
The death scene is a good one. In some ways, I find it more moving now than I did then (again, don't ask me why). I like the final exchange with Goliath.
G: "I owe you."
M: "You...but, I cursed your clan."
G: (shaking his head) "You saved my children."
And of course Katharine's grief over the passing of her friend from childhood caps the touching moment. Good voicework from Jeff Bennett and Kath Souci. It took me several viewings to notice it, but I thought the shooting star was a nice touch.
I always wondered why the "good-byes" seemed so strange to me. I suppose individual good-byes would be more realistic, but for a narrative...eh. I kind of got that Arthur would be visiting Manhattan eventually, so the foreshadowing was not wasted.
Goliath should laugh more. ;)
Angela's coming along. A new regular. This was something I had been wondering about for some time--if one of these new gargoyles we had just been introduced to would actually come along for the rest of the show. It made sense that it was Angela, what with all the angst her parentage would bring to light.
When Tom spoke about Avalon sending you where "you need to be," I kind of got a smile as I thought to myself "Oh, you guys aren't going to be getting back home for a while..." and got prepared for a world tour. Perhaps my reading about gargoyles in Guatemala, London, and Japan influenced me here.
One last interesting note. As with the previous two, I showed this one to my mother when it first aired. YEARS LATER, as I was telling her about your original plans for sending the Magus with Arthur, Greg, and your reasons for giving him a "good death" instead, she said, "Well, they also probably had to kill him off because his voice was too expensive." I, confused, looked at her and asked "What do you mean?" She, now looking confused herself, said, "Well, he was voiced by Michael York...wasn't he?" So when you see Jeff Bennett again, you may want to pass onto him that he does a good York!
This was a good ep with a feeling of closure and a sense of something exciting coming just over the horizon. It could have been a season finale, even. Just my thoughts.

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART TWO

Ah, the Archmage's ep. David Warner is another actor whose name and/or voice instantly catch my attention. He really does fantastic work in any of his roles (his turn as The Lobe on FREAKAZOID! always makes me smile), and this episode is no exception.
But I'm getting a little ahead of myself.
When Angela showed up, I can't quite remember what my exact thoughts were. I think I may have been pleasantly surprised that here was a *good* female gargoyle, who was also *alive*. I'm pretty sure that within the first few seconds of seeing her, I recognized her coloring pattern, and determined who she was. I thought it neat that she was named Angela (the opposite of Demona, and fitting, I thought, with the mindsets of her human parents). Gabriel's parentage took a bit longer for me. I think, some weeks later, I was trying to envision Gabriel in my head and Coldstone's face kept popping up (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, at that moment, I pretty much recieved a lightning bolt to the brain and realized Gaberiel's lineage.
The beach fight. I thought it was very well done (and am a little surprised that it wasn't in there originally), with the Archmage making good use of the material. I enjoyed the lines, too (especially Tom's idea that the air might attack them). In fact, when I showed this episode to my mother, she got a great kick out of "You beat up a beach." Just the way David Warner says it is great, too.
I had never picked up on Elisa's jelousy over the idea that Goliath and Demona were actually parents. It's a nice touch, a great character bit, and I wish I was more aware of it the first time.
Seeing Katharine and The Magus as older was a neat thing for me. I liked their new designs. And Kath Soucie and Jeff Bennett did good work aging their voices (although when old Magus speaks for the first time, Jeff Bennett seems to sound slightly different than he does for the rest of the three-parter).
I liked Goliath's reaction to seeing "laser burns." I don't know why, exactly. It just struck me.
I got the Archmage's Time Loop right off the bat. I liked it a lot--to me it was (at the time) a different approach to the whole "time travel" business. This sort of "you do what you always did" thing was touched on in VOWS, but here it's really exploited for all its worth. And I think it works well.
Now back to David Warner. I still find it hard to believe that he did both versions of the Archmage during the same session. He's able to invest each with particular mannerisms and yet keep the idea that they're basically the same guy. His line readings are great, too. You've already mentioned most of them, Greg, but the "No, no," and "Nine-hundred and seventy-five YEARS??!!" bear repeating.
The Archmage's plan was also pretty cool to watch. The picture of the happenings in Demona and Macbeth's life began to be completed, and (as cliched as he may have been) the Archmage took on a somewhat more majestic tone with the revelation that he had orchestrated so much (with a little help from the timestream/Luna--man, that girl can be subtle). I would have loved to have seen the rest of his planned time stops in there, but what we got was still pretty good.
As for the Weird Sisters...I think I was more disappointed than angry when I saw their "Fury" aspect dominant in these eps. It seemed to diminish their majesty and mystique when they revealed how much "vengence" had motivated them to do. (Hmmm, actually that could be another "lesson against vengence" there, Greg--it diminishes the respect one has in the eyes of others...or something like that, I guess).
BTW, in later airings, older Demona's model was fixed some. At least her hair's red, now.
The Archmage's intial attack on the palace was well choreographed (funny thing--even with the gargoyles as flesh, if he kept up like he did, he would have won; pity he didn't think about that). One thing that really struck me during the battle was Ophelia (of course, until ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT, I just knew her as "that female gargoyle with the triceratops plate"). Her design was that striking, probably because of her unique forehead. I think I was one of the ones who kind of thought there might have been something going on between Angela and Gabriel (they had always been seen together up until now, and, like I said, expectations of "animated relationships" kind of led me down that path). Even then, I had always found the scene with Gabriel and Ophelia here one that gave me pause. I really wish enough screentime remained to get a sort of stronger "nod" to the fact that THEY were the item (and for the rest of the Archmage+'s travels--they made his plan seem even bigger, and gave a better explanation of his knowledge of Goliath's being alive). But, "what you gonna do?"
The "caption countdown" was something I don't think I noticed, at least not consiously (sp?), the first time around. But it was pretty neat.
We return, finally, to "NOW" and the good guys as they start to come up with a plan. I liked the little moment between the Magus and Katharine after M has his bout of self-pity and K tries to snap him out of it. One wonders if they've had this conversation before. Goliath takes Angela and Gabriel with him for a strike on the Archmage, and suggests to Elisa that she come up with a contingency plan (I'm not sure, but I think my mother may have said, "Smart Goliath."). I like the look on Elisa's face here--the phrase "in case this doesn't work," is never really good, but it has the potential to be very bad.
Then she asks about "the Sleeping King" (and I *know* my mother said, "OOoo, smart Elisa!"). Now, I will admit my ignorance and say that at the time I watched this, my knowledge of Arthurian Legend encompassed only the Disney movie "The Sword in the Stone," a few episodes of the Family Channel's "Prince Valiant," and various pop-culture references. As such, I had no idea about Arthur's connection with Avalon, and in fact had never even heard of Avalon before this (I just liked the sound of the name). So the revelation of who "the Sleeping King" was turned out to be quite a nice surprise for me. (As for my mother...I'm pretty sure she knew who they were talking about--she had read ONCE AND FUTURE KING).
And then the Archmage sees his would-be attackers, and laughs...and quickly vanishes for "To be concluded." I liked that phrase here, actually. It begged the question of how they were going to get out of this mess in so little time.
A cool episode, it served as the centerpiece of the "triptych" (sp?) quite well.

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble on "Avalon Part Two".

I really liked this episode (and never had any confusion with the time loop, since I've done similar things in my own fiction, conceived years before "Gargoyles" ever came out; indeed, a certain time loop that I've planned in the book that I'm currently writing - although I can't say anything more about it than that - fits beautifully the part where the Archmages say to each other "You're sure you know what to do?" "Of course. I've watched you do it.")

The introduction of Angela and Gabriel's names (alongside the whole "gargoyles being given names" process that you referred to) illustrates nicely just how Princess Katharine and the Magus's attitudes towards gargoyles have changed since "Awakening Part One". Now, they're naming gargoyles after angels rather than villainous giants. (Although, regarding Boudicca's name, as we agreed earlier, they couldn't have been too familiar with the original Boudicca's career when they named the gargoyle beast.)

I picked up easily enough on Angela's parentage (especially because of that article that I mentioned in the "Double Jeopardy" ramble); I never even suspected that Gabriel might be Othello and Desdemona's biological offspring until I discovered Gargoyles fandom on the Internet, though.

I definitely guessed from the start who the Sleeping King was (of course, from the moment that Avalon got into the story, I was hoping that Arthur would show up - and was mentally jumping up and down in excitement when Elisa actually asked about him at the end of Part Two). It's interesting to note that, judging from the Archmage's response, even by the late 10th century in the Gargoyles Universe, Arthur had faded into the mists of legend (of course, the same thing must have been true of him in the real world, judging from what I've read about early mentions of him in medieval writings predating Geoffrey of Monmouth).

About the Weird Sisters: I was more bothered over the Grace vs. Vengeance conflict than the Fate vs. Vengeance one, for my part. I was having a very difficult time reconciling their desire for blood and vengeance with all their talk in "City of Stone" about every life being precious and vengeance being wrong. (It actually made them seem worse than the Archmage, in fact; he, at least, was introduced in the series as a villain from the start, while the Sisters started off appearing to be benevolent. Truth to tell, my response to their behavior in "Avalon" was probably not too different from how Lexington felt in "The Thrill of the Hunt" when he discovered that the Pack weren't quite so heroic as they'd seemed to be).

I agree with you on David Warner's voice; it's great. Definitely justified bringing the Archmage back. (I'm actually reminded of an episode of "Batman Beyond" that I once saw. In it, Bruce Wayne had a reunion with Talia, only to discover that she'd been "taken over" by Reis el-Ghul following his final defeat by Batman (off-stage, some years previous), who'd somehow transferred his consciousness into her body. During the latter part of the episode - after the truth was revealed - Talia spoke in Reis's voice, done by David Warner as per "Batman: TAS". Although I knew that that was scientifically impossible - a mere mind-transplant couldn't have altered her voice - I didn't protest because David Warner did such a great job that he simply had to be in that episode. Leaving him out of the voice actor roster for the story would have been unthinkable.)

And I agree with you that, despite all his power, the Archmage ultimately comes across as not all that bright. (My favorite part is where he has to admit that, although he's spent all that time seeking to unite all three magical objects into one big Triad of Power, he hasn't even decided what he's going to do with it. And he even has to be nudged by his future self into picking the obvious goal for a cliched villain: Taking Over the World.) I LOL when you mentioned that the real reason why the two Archmages can't work together for long was because of their utter arrogance.

The scene where he becomes the "enhanced Archmage", as I call him, was very effective - and the bit where he eats the Grimorum definitely jolted me. It'd been around from the very start of the series, and so it shook me up a bit to see it go. (I know that the book's real end is in Part Three, but for me, the bit where the Archmage eats it is where it exits the series). And I also really liked the "caption countdown". It gave a feel of approaching ominousness and tension.

I'm eagerly awaiting your Part Three ramble now.

Ed writes...

Although I don't really have time to rewatch and ramble to most of the episodes as you do them (at least, not right now), I wanted to respond to one of the questions you posed in your "AVALON PART ONE" ramble.

With regard to denoting 'parts' on continued episodes, I'm massively in favour of it. The conventional wisdom you mention, for me at least, is completely wrong: "part one" tells me that there's something worth watching, or at least more likely to be worth watching, particularly as it's such a rare thing in cartoons, and many television programmes.

Although they were titled separately as I recall, I loved the multi-part stories that Disney did for 'Ducktales' with Gizmoduck and Bubba. I love continuity, and particularly given that the last 'Gargoyles' multi-part outing was 'CITY OF STONE'... well, it was a good move to mark the 'part one' at the beginning.

Ray Kremer writes...

The funny thing about the first time I saw the Avalon trilogy is that I knew next to nothing about Arthurian legend. The name Avalon meant nothing to me and that the "sleeping king" was Arthur came as quite a surprise. And then maybe a month later my high school enlgish class began doing Arthurian legend. When we got to his death a big light went on in my head as everything finally connected. I even asked the teacher if the island of Avalon had any other special significance, half expecting her to say it was the kingdom of Oberon and the fairies.

Heh. That reminds me. Earlier that year we read MacBeth, and since City of Stone had already been on I didn't enjoy the play one bit. Mac as the villian just seemed wrong. Even so, it was the voice of John Rhys-Davies in my head as I read. That classroom had a big poster on one wall displaying the family tree of British royalty through the centuries, and as you might expect I went looking and indeed found MacBeth, Gruoch, Luoch, Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore back in 11th century Scotland.

Blondewookiee writes...

Well I don't really have a question my sister MaryMack has been here a couple of times and says that you were making references to how many licks does it takes to get to the center of a tootsieroll pop, well I know. The number is 1478 approx.

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART ONE

I liked having the "Part 1" addendum to the title. It whetted (sp?) my appetite for a longer and more involved story than usual. Plus, the "To be continued" at the end didn't piss me off nearly so much since I knew it was coming and had mentally prepared for it.
There's so much cool stuff in this episode, I hardly know where to begin. Well, I might as well start at the beginning.
The clan goes out on patrol, minus Bronx, as per usual, and Goliath--a bit of a surprise that. But then, the big G does seem like the type to want to finish book when he gets to the good part. I wonder what exactly it was he was reading (and how miffed was he when it turned out it would be months before he could get back to it?).
Bronx's saddness at not going with the others helped to underline this particular instance. You know, I guess it says something that I never realized how often Bronx was left behind. Well, this time pooch is getting exposure.
The Guardian. I knew it had to be Tom for the same reason I knew Brooklyn was going to be Second-in-Command--Disney Adventures (an article this time, as oppossed to a comic). The article also said that the show would feature gargoyles native to other parts of the world, including (fanfare, please) Avalon! So I had some idea of what to expect there as well. But I will say that Tom the Guardian's entrance was quite impressive. I love his armor, and the way he refers to the lead ruffian as "sirrah."
Laws of TV and movies at work: within about two seconds of the breaking of the store window, the police show up. Two patrol cars, and 2-3 cops on foot (including Morgan). Talk about being in the right place at the right time.
Morgan's interaction with the Guardian is great. Tom's initial accusation of them being lawless undercut by Morgan's identifying himself, and Tom's rather knightly way of submitting to the law. A nice dignified bit until Morgan drops the sword.
Morgan talks to Elisa, and I like the way he describes the Guardian as "differnt, good somehow." Morgan definitely has a rather insightful and perceptive quality to him.
I didn't pick up on the meeting by Belvedere castle as a clue of any kind, unfortunately. Nor did I believe that when Tom was referring to the "eggs" he meant it in the literal sense of the term (after all, gargoyle eggs hatch after ten years (this was in the article, too) so they must have grown at least a little bit).
Let me just finish with the article now--the revelation that gargoyles existed in other parts of the world really excited me. Now the characters were no longer "the last of their kind," so this was something of a new approach in a series for me (I hadn't gotten to see that much of the GUMMI BEARS). This turning upside down of what my expectations had been at the beginning of the series was really fun.
Back to the show, the Guardian eventually mentions the Archmage. This was a complete and total surprise to me. He was dead! How could he come back like this? If I hadn't been hooked already (and I was) this would have clinched it.
The flashback starts. It's interesting to contrast Tom's traveling in the back of the cart with the eggs here to Demona's memory of him sitting up front (aah, it's probably just two different animation studios/storyboards, but I like the idea of a POV prism). Tom's solemnity (sp?) about his vow is rather touching in its way.
I liked the little scene with Tom and the Magus pushing the cart through the rain. They were becoming friends as well, it seems.
First impressions at the dinner: The King was a nice enough gentleman (voiced by Morgan Shepard), while Constantine's brief appearance here was not enough for me to form any opinions about him yet. Finella aroused some distrust in me for some reason...maybe her hollowed cheeks (that's how they looked to me), or the hint of insincerity in her voice when she spoke to the king, OR the scowl she gave when Constantine proposed the toast to Katharine. Anyway, next to her there was Maol Chalvim--who definitely looked more than a little sinister to me. This might have something to do with his sour expression, hollowed face, stylized eyebrows and Xanatosian beard. Suffice to say, their turning out to be "good guys" in this episode surprised me a bit (but the knowledge that Maol Chalvim would kill his cousin and take the throne did not surprise me at all).
I liked that people (at least Maol Chalvim) tended to look askance at Katharine's care for the gargoyle eggs. And Maol Chalvim already suspected Constantine's treachery ("they can smell their own" sort of thing I guess). I liked Constantine's scowl after Maol's thinly veiled insult.
Details. You just gotta love details. The Magus is writing in the Grimorum (the story of his cursing the gargoyles, perhaps?) and stops to look up when Constantine enters. Then he remains in the background while the future-usurper talks with Katharine. He senses the same thing Finella does (not that Constantine does much to hide it).
I love how when Finella mentions the King's proposal of marriage to her, Constantine seems somewhat incredulous that she has not accepted. A telling bit of character that.
Then Constantine murders Kenneth (who saw that coming? *countless hands raise into the air*). I liked how Finella turned out to be a more sympathetic figure here, through her devestation at this turn of events. And Tom (details--the tears down his cheeks) sees it all. I know kids had to grow up more quickly then, but MAN! Seeing that has got to affect a kid, no matter what era.
Scenes of the usurpation occur, and of course show what a jerk Constantine is. Maol Chalvim kills a guard (off-screen, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened), and tries to get Katharine to flee. You're right, Greg, he is rather heroic here actually. I didn't see any smile though, after Katharine tells him to go for the last time. His face registers more a shocked expression. It's still an awkward transistion (especially because you only see it for half a second), but better than a smile.
Constantine tries to force Katharine into marriage, and it's only Mary and Tom that keep the Magus from rushing him (details again, yay!) while Finella runs away in, what seemed to me, a rather embarrassed fasion (one wonders if she, *ahem* gave more to Constantine than that one kiss).
About this scene, where Constantine is crowned, I find a contrast between this and Macbeth's back in CITY OF STONE. When Macbeth did it, I really believed that he meant those words. With Constantine, it seemed more of a PR thing. That could be just because we already knew what those characters were like before they took the oath, but I also think that Ian Buchanan just does good voice work here (and throughout the episode).
RE: The amount of broken crockery. Maybe Tom went and broke it for the plan to work. Or, hey, maybe Constantine and his boys are just a rowdy lot who like to break things (now THAT would be ironic). I like how the "magical glow" begins and ends with the eggs and their dopplegangers.
I loved the romantic moment between the Magus and Katharine in the next scene where he promises to take her beyond the ends of the earth. I did expect them to wind up together. Actually, I kind of expected it from AWAKENING PART 5--his anger there seemed very much like that of a man who lost his love.
Finella shows up and offers her help in the matter. I like her admission that she does it "more to hurt Constantine." True to the character, and a nice moment in an animated series.
Then the Magus tells us the "spiked-cider" plan. Actually, the Magus really gets to shine as a hero in this episode. He comes up with the plan to get the eggs to safety, and then, once Finella is brought in, comes up with the method to get Katharine out of the castle. Throughout all this, he has planned to take them all to Avalon, and when the Weird Sisters block their path, he is able to defeat them, not just with magic, but by skillfully weilding the steering pole as well. And then, for love, he gives up his magic book. It really isn't surprising that a fair number of fans really like this guy. Once he got past that "bigot" problem, he could be quite dashing and romantic (then again, since some folks take the same view of Brooklyn, maybe it's got something to do with Jeff Bennett).
I liked how Finella offered to take the book. This was a surprisingly noble gesture on her part. And not one that I expected. And then Mary offers to stay with her. I love her line, "One woman alone could get into trouble. TWO women can cause plenty of it." Mary is an interesting character. Like Katharine, once she got past the "bigot" problem she was quite a good judge of character. Also quite daring in her own right. I hadn't even noticed Kath Soucie voiced Mary until...I want to say the credits, but when Mary said "I'll stay with Finella" I half-thought that came from Katharine (leaving me very confused), until Mary's image popped up on the screen again. So that was how I figured they were both voiced by the same woman. Still, excellent work otherwise. Kind of sad that Mary and Tom had to separate, but then too, boys tended to become men much earlier in those days.
Back in the present, the Guardian spells out the time difference (fair enough) and Goliath asks about the Archmage, mentioning how that cad died before Tom was even born (a nod to continuity I was grateful for). Then we get to Avalon, and get our first glimpse of the new clan. I think I only recognized that we had a female, a male, and a beast, before Goliath's surprised face filled the screen. And excellent little cliffhanger that left me eager for the next episode as well.

Entity writes...

AVALON, PART ONE

I agree with Todd that, in principle, I like that you identified the multi-parters as such. Looking back, it feels more honest and manageable that way. But I gotta admit, upon the FIRST viewing, the labeling always made "Part One" stick out. Once you knew it was a multi-parter, you set yourself up for something big, so it was less fluid. For instance, in "Avolon, Part One," I knew it was a multi-parter, so when they arrive at the shore of Avalon and glimpse the "eggs" I don't blow soda out of my nose, but rather say, "Oh, so they're finally getting around to tieing up that loose-end about the Wyvern eggs. Cool." For me, at least, the honesty of telling the viewer ahead of time that it is going to be a multi-parter "spoiled" me, so that I expected something big, rather than getting it rewarded to me.

Todd Jensen writes...

My thoughts on "Avalon Part One".

First off, a little about the eggs. I honestly hadn't expected to see anything further with the eggs at this point. The reason was that I'd always assumed that the eggs were indeed all gone, as Xanatos had claimed in "Awakening Part Two", even after we found out what he was really like, for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the Awakening. Since I didn't think it likely that gargoyles live naturally for a thousand years, my assumption always was that the eggs had hatched long ago and that the gargoyles that had hatched from them had grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before as well. I hadn't taken into account the possibility of a place where time moved slower.

(Of course, thinking over it some more, I should have expected the eggs to return, simply because, if they weren't going to, their inclusion to date would have been almost pointless. After all, they'd had no real impact on the storyline in "Awakening" - the mere fact that the video version was able to edit them out is proof enough of that - so that would have to mean that something further with them would have to be done, or else why include them in "Awakening" at all?)

Regarding your multi-parter comments: I also prefer it when the first episode of a multi-parter clearly labels itself as "Part One". That way, I'm already prepared for the "To Be Continued" part. So I'm glad that you always labeled the multi-parters as such.

I was a bit amused to notice the Brigadoon alternative to Avalon, in light of the fact that you did manage to use Brigadoon as the Avalon-substitute in your "Gargoyles meet Captain Atom" story. And, yep, I was definitely looking out for King Arthur to show up at some point in this story, given that the thing that Avalon is most famous for is being his resting-place. (More about that in my ramble on Part Two when it comes).

Needless to say, I enjoyed the flashback. More 10th century Scotland! And more real Scottish history! In some ways, it was even more fun than the Macbeth backstory in "City of Stone"; after all, I already knew about the historical Macbeth before "Gargoyles" ever came out, but I'd never heard of Kenneth II and Constantine III before. After seeing this episode, I eagerly looked up everything on them that I could at the local library (although I wasn't able to find much, thanks to the scanty records for this part of Scottish history).

Constantine definitely struck me as shrewd when he provided a very convincing "innocent reason" for the secret meeting in the drying-house (the argument that it would be better for Kenneth's dignity to have Finella turn down his suit in private, rather than before his entire court). I thought he made a good antagonist here, even if for only one episode.

(I haven't seen the McKellen "Richard III" movie, by the way, but I do have a book that McKellen wrote about the making of it, including the screenplay, which I found fascinating reading.)

I also liked the mention of Michaelmas, which added to the medieval flavor of the story. (It's things like this that make me regret the fact that you never got to make the "Dark Ages" spin-off. Of course, I suppose that an animated series set entirely in 10th century Scotland wouldn't be all that commercially viable, more's the pity.)

I'm looking forward to your rambles on Part Two and Part Three, as well.

Blaise writes...

THE PRICE

I really like this ep. I liked it when I first saw it and I still like it now.
It's nice to have Hudson in the spotlight again, and Xanatos' quest for immortality is expanded upon while, just for good measure, we get a greater glimpse into Owen's character. Yeesh! Quite a lot stuffed into this ep.
I didn't begin to guess that "Macbeth" wasn't the real deal until the second time he appeared. His "Trophies" line, though not in character for the old Scottish noble, as Todd pointed out, seemed to me like it could have just been something of a joke. But when he showed up the second time, and repeated a line he had said before, in the exact same way, I began to figure out he/it was a robot. I did love how it "died"--Goliath punching his arm straight through its gut, and then the eye-pop, as the voice runs down, followed by a final explosion! I loved it.
When "Hudson" didn't wake up along with the other gargoyles, I was completely convinced that we were seeing the real Hudson under another magic spell. I had not read the Disney Adventures comic by Mr. Nordling, and consequently suspected nothing. At the end of Act I, I did indeed see Hudson's appearance in the cage as taking place within his mind. It wasn't until Act II had begun, and I saw the strange floor underneath the cage (not to mention the appearance of Xanatos and Owen), that I realized here was the real Hudson, and the one the other's were looking after was a decoy.
Hudson and Xanatos did have some great interaction here. I don't know about them being better adversaries than Goliath and (David) Xanatos, but there is something there. I think Hudson can figure out what really scares Xanatos because he himself is already there (the possibility that he was the last survivor of his generation even before the massacre leads to a certain viewpoint on the inevitability of death). Also, they throw their own quips and insults back and forth quite a bit.
Then too, there's Hudson's attitude towards Xanatos' plans. When X takes the stone skin, Hudson just asks "So, are ya through with me?" This is interesting because Goliath's most probable reaction, IMHO, would be to ask what game Xanatos was playing now. And at the end, Goliath would have probably destroyed the cauldron to keep Xanatos from any power it might bestow (and possibly just to spite X as well). Hudson, however, doesn't see any point to destroying the cauldron, and just wants to go home. He even shares a profound thought with Xanatos. And Xanatos, for his part, let's Hudson go in a rather honorable fashion. As I said, I don't know if they're "better natural adversaries" than Goliath and David, but Hudson and X do have an undeniable dynamic here.
Somehow, I knew that Goliath would suggest trying to seek out Demona at some point. I mean, she is the only sorceress they know of. I liked how that was worked in--a last resort sort-of thing.
Broadway's turning to stone in mid-air was something I had been waiting for. Well, not Broadway specifically, but one of the gargoyles, of course--it had to happen sooner or later. I kind of figured the box on the crane had something in it to save BW from shattering, but personally, I would have preferred "Extra Comfy-Soft Mattresses" (sp?) to the rolled up Persian rugs. Eh, minor quibble.
I didn't much care that the Hudson statue was blown up because I already knew about Hudson's being alive. I did, however, like the way the various reactions were portrayed. Goliath's rage was awesome. One of his most chilling moments in the series.
The "semi-Wind Ceremony" for Hudson, was nicely done, and nicely undercut by the old codger himself. I also liked his little remark about the head. On that track, I always enjoyed the way Hudson escaped from Xanatos and all ("Swordless maybe, helpless NEVER!"--too cool).
Although I thought Owen was cool, this episode was the one that really impressed me in regards to his character. I was completely stupefied when Owen just went up and dunked his arm into the Cauldron, resulting in it turning to stone. He had been permanently changed. Another one of the cool things about GARGOYLES: changes occur and cannot be reversed. I silently applauded the episode for daring to do this with one of its characters.
Of course, this aired out of order in my area, and although I missed THE CAGE, I saw DOUBLE JEOPARDY after this and noted that Owen's left hand was still flesh. Although I considered this a possible oversight, maybe somewhere at the back of my mind I realized that this just aired early, so I didn't mind too much.
OTHER NOTES: Lot's of fun lines and exchanges here. All those already mentioned, as well as the following between Brooklyn and Lexington:
LEX: "The city sure is different when it snows."
BROOK: "Yeah. It's colder."
I still laugh at that.
When Macbeth's guns were manned by Banquo and Fleance, the old man's mansion got pretty shot up in the ensuing fight. This time however, run by a computer, the mansion did not seem to sustain a single hit. Still, the cannons did shoot each other, so...nevermind.
I don't think I even realized that Brooklyn had said the word "Jalapena" until after I had watched PROTECTION (which had aired after this) and this one a second time. The first time around, I guess I just ignored it because I couldn't really understand it.
When "Macbeth" dies the first time, and Goliath says "I had no choice," Hudson calmly brushes the incident (and some of the dust) off. I like this sort of reasonableness about Hudson. He shows he's defintely more of the "old soldier," the 10th century warrior even, than the younger gargoyles in the clan. Incidentally, I never thought Hudson was going to die in this episode. That might have been me being tv-savvy...or just in denial.
And I thought the animation was spectacular (though the shadows in the beginning did make it look almost as though Goliath had a moustache (sp?).
At any rate, a wonderful episode.

Todd Jensen writes...

My own ramble on "The Price".

You mentioned in the course of your ramble a number of misconceptions that first-time viewers of this one could have had; I'll confess that, the first time that I saw "The Price", I fell victim to all of them!

1. I thought at first that Hudson might actually die in this episode, between the name of it and Goliath's line in the "Previously on Gargoyles" section about how Hudson had years ahead of him to live. I was relieved to see that Hudson doesn't actually pay the price (although Owen does, in a different sense, but I'll get to that later).

2. I thought at first that Macbeth really had turned Hudson to stone (and, when you stop to think it over, it probably wasn't too difficult to dupe the audience into believing it, thanks to the fact that we already knew that it was possible to trap a gargoyle in his stone sleep, with the Magus in "Awakening").

3. Since I knew that only Demona could kill Macbeth, I wasn't surprised at all by the fact that Macbeth "returned from the grave", to battle the clan again, and thought that he'd survived because it was Goliath who "slew" him rather than Demona.

4. And when I first saw Hudson in the cage, I thought that it was a metaphor for the spell imprisoning him. Even after Xanatos and Owen showed up, I initially thought that they were just "metaphors", like Xanatos being the shape of the Xanatos Program in "Legion". But I soon understood otherwise.

I did get suspicious about "Macbeth" in this episode, though, not so much from the "only a few lines", as from the fact that he appeared to be acting out-of-character here. I found it hard to believe that Macbeth really would go gargoyle-hunting just for the sake of a few trophies; that motivation was more appropriate to, say, the Pack. I could buy the notion of Macbeth going after the gargoyles again, but for a cause much bigger than just something to have stuffed and mounted. (Especially since, after "City of Stone", I'd become quite fond of him). So the "robot revelation" worked for me.

I also get a kick out of the scene where Xanatos acquired a bit of Hudson's stone skin. Just one of those moments that makes it so hard not to have a sneaking admiration for the man. "There, that wasn't so hard now, was it?"

This is the episode where we learn about Xanatos's desire for immortality, but it occurs to me that we also get a hint of it in "City of Stone", where Demona dupes Xanatos into thinking that the effect of her spell is to steal one minute of life from everybody who watches it, which she can use to augment their life-spans.

I very much enjoyed the interplay between Hudson, Xanatos, and Owen (I honestly hadn't thought that "The Price" helped lead to Puck's use of Xanatos and Hudson slaying each other in "Future Tense" prior to your ramble, I must admit), which certainly had some fine moments there. Like many viewers, I particularly found interesting the fact that Hudson wasn't interested in destroying the Cauldron of Life, but just in regaining his freedom. And also how Xanatos lets him escape from the castle on the grounds of "he's earned it".

Of course, the biggie here is Owen getting his hand turned to stone. That was one bit that definitely got my attention, because of the permanent change to a major character. (Interestingly enough, I didn't pay that much attention to the characters' response to the stone hand, maybe because I was too busy dealing with the mere physical change to pay attention to the fact that Owen was just staring at it. In fact, it wasn't until "The Gathering Part One" that I started to really suspect the truth about Owen, but that's another story.) Still, you've got to admit that it beats being turned into an anthropomorphic aardvark. :)

Entity writes...

THE PRICE

This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. The revelation that Macbeth was an android was done with astounding grace. I didn't realize he was a robot until Goliath's arm literally went through him. And then when I did realize, I didn't feel cheated, because it made sense out of everything (why he would be working for Xanatos, why he kept repeating those same four lines, why he had become such a narrow-minded character all of a sudden).

In general, I watched GARGOYLES with a jaded perspective. I kept waiting for it to become the run-of-the-mill, hackneyed cartoon series. I did this because I was so terrified of the show becoming that. So, when it appeared Macbeth was being used as a stock antagonist, I rolled my eyes. When it looked like we were supposed to be fooled into thinking Macbeth really died and then being surprised when he returned, I rolled my eyes. When it all made sense, it kind of restrengthened my resolve in the show.

I didn't expect Hudsun to leave without doing anything to the Cauldron. That was well-done. I was also left with my mouth hanging open when Owen stonified his arm.

My only complaints about this episode are that I think your original hunches were better on. We should've seen Banquo and Fleance at Macbeth's, and Broadway shouldn't have gotten frozen in stone in mid-air. The rescue was too hard to believe. I noticed and appreciated Elisa not hitting the cable on the first shot, but it was still too convenient, and really, it was a distraction. Hudson was the one in jeopardy this episode, not Broadway.

But none of that matters. Macbeth was a robot. I don't think another scene had me in more shock, short of when Elisa seemed to fall to her death in HUNTER'S MOON.

pizza girl writes...

dear greg, i have oftin wondered if there is a behgining to the end of the real show like right after the last episode i see all these new carectors in the fanfic and am lost is there a begining to all the new carectors? thanx!

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble on "The Cage".

I quite liked this episode, especially since I'd been wondering a little over what happened to the Mutates after "Metamorphosis"; oddly enough, the one whom I was really wondering over was Maggie more than Talon. (Part of it was that I always had a strong sense of sympathy for Maggie, finding herself suddenly and unexpectedly "drafted" into a "war" that she didn't even suspect was taking place when she came to New York, and feeling much more the "ordinary person" in all of this than Derek/Talon did. I especially found myself wondering whether she'd find a cure, and even, at the climax, was half-expecting her to get cured when she took the phial from Sevarius.)

Regarding the identity of Sevarius's kidnapper: I honestly don't recall for certain what I thought the first time that I saw this episode. But Goliath as the kidnapper did make sense, given that he had the motive. I thought that the interaction between Goliath and Elisa over that act was well-done.

I hadn't really thought that Claw's muteness was in part a way of saving on voice actors (though it does make sense) - a lot of that comes, in part, from the fact that my writing has always been of the "written page" variety as opposed to the so that I've never had to give serious consideration to the logistics for writing for television (or the movies, for that matter), where you do have to concern yourself with things such as actor availability or actors needing to be paid. I saw his muteness more in terms of the cornerstone of his characterization (assuming that it's based on the shock and horror of his situation). I hadn't noticed before now that Diane doesn't speak in the episode, by the way.

I share your enjoyment and delight in Xanatos's lines such as "He's the scientist; you're just the experiment. Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there." Definitely ranks among Xanatos's all-time great lines. Another of my favorites is Sevarius's "Nothing is so annoying as having someone watching over my shoulder" (though, frankly, I'm a little surprised that he actually dared speak that way to Goliath!)

The ending with the Mutates and Mazas is a lovely one, and it is nice to see Talon's family still accepting him despite his condition. Not to mention the shot of Goliath watching with an approving smile behind the curtain.

As for the "cage symbolism", I honestly hadn't picked up on it all the way until now. It's nice to know about that at last.

Blaise writes...

THE CAGE

Like METAMORPHOSIS and later, KINGDOM, I missed this episode the first time it aired. I did see it after METAMORPHOSIS though, and the rest of the second season (sans KINGDOM). Consequently, I had already become familiar with Vinnie in VENDETTAS, and had seen the new designs of the Mutates in THE RECKONING. Even though I had seen Claw in FUTURE TENSE, I wasn't sure if he was the same character as the "Tiger Mutate" because he didn't have wings. Fang in a jail cell...didn't surprise me. Having seen the way he liked his new form at the end of METAMORPHOSIS, I kind of figured he was a ne'er-do-well. Regardless, I was *extremely* happy to see this "lost chapter" in the series.
Even after having seen VENDETTAS, I still remained convinced that it was Talon who had kidnapped Sevarius. I think it was the kidnapping-sillohuette (sp?) that sold me--it looked enough like Talon in my eyes. And I remained convinced until I saw the image on Vinnie's security screen.
Speaking of which, it was fun watching Vinnie here, even in hindsight.
I had seen Beth Maza first in CLOUD FATHERS, so her appearance here had less impact on me than it probably would have, but she had some nice moments (especially the reminisce (sp?) about Derek).
I did rather like the new character designs (and my Mom, who has a thing for black panthers, *loves* Talon). I also like that Maggie tries to be the peacemaker in the first battle.
Actually there's a lot of interesting things about Maggie in this episode. Even though she's not a "warrior" she is confident enough to disagree with Talon, something she does in the beginning fight, when Talon accuses Goliath of being in cahoots with Sevarius, and at the end when Talon is ready to kill the doctor regardless of the chance for a cure.
Her interaction with the gargoyles themselves presents some fascinating qualities. She's openly apologetic to Hudson when Fang and Claw capture him and Bronx, and seems rather quiet around all the others...except Brooklyn. He is the *only* one in this episode who she becomes angry or confrontational with. I really like this. It's like a holdover from their first encounter, and has her actually arguing against Brooklyn for the idea she had disagreed with in the first place (especially when his thoughts threaten the hope that Xanatos will cure her). Also, it strikes me that the ease with which Maggie can confront Brooklyn is an indication that he is...more familiar to her, maybe? She just seems (to me) to act far less awkward around him. Of course, she did take him out with an electric bolt a month and more back.
As for Brooklyn, he really showed his maturity in this ep. He does not make a decision based on his crush here, and his letting Maggie and the rest go free probably went farther towards gaining their trust than trying to argue with them about Xanatos (well, Maggie and Claw anyway, Fang was out cold).
Re: Talon and Maggie's relationship. I saw it happen pretty much right when she glided down to stand between Talon and Elisa & Goliath. The way they talked to each other, the way they touched each other--it's amazing how close a couple can become when they've got nothing to rely on but each other (and two others, one who doesn't talk and other who talks too much) for several weeks.
Sevarius (and unfortunately, Greg, the misspelled briefcase was never corrected) is a lot of fun in this ep. We see him at the mercy of a gargoyle again, and he has some fun lines here ("I dislike having to work with someone hanging over my shoulder--Oh, wonderful, now there's two of you!"). My brother (who watched this with me the first time) loved one sequence in particular: in the third Act, when Goliath and Elisa are having their heart-to-heart, Sevarius is in the background mixing chemicals that frequently produce small explosions of green smoke. Fun!
Fang I had already known at length before, so it didn't surprise me that he was a bit of a jerk to Claw and abrasive with everyone else. What surprised me was that, despite this, he seemed rather chummy with them all (especially at the end) and never even argued with Talon. Maybe he did like being part of the group at first, and didn't have a bone to pick with Talon as long as he was sent to beat people up.
I finally got to learn more about Claw, too. I liked that his muteness was a result of trauma from the transformation.
Goliath and Elisa stay true to their personalities. Even when I found out that Goliath was the one who kidnapped Sevarius, I didn't feel for a minute that it was out of character for "our hero." I had never thought that Goliath's behavior here was a sort of indicator of what he would be like in EYE OF THE STORM, but it certainly makes sense. I did like Goliath's spying on the happy reunion at the end. It's not often you get to see the big guy smiling like that.
It's both frustrating and cool the way Xanatos dupes Derek. You'd think Derek would be more likely to at least investigate the claims of his sister (whom he's known his whole life) as oppossed to a man he's known personally for less than a year. But Derek, in addition to being blinded by rage may be in a bit of denial. Maybe he's still not entirely ready to admit that he was wrong about Xanatos? On the other hand, Xanatos is just that good. Before even mentioning the "placebo" Xanatos reinforces the idea in Derek's mind that Goliath is in cahoots with Sevarius. And Owen of course picks up on it ("It appears Sevarius *left* with Goliath").
There's an animation moment that I really like: when Owen is scanning the computer for labs that Talon might have taken Sevarius to, the readout is reflected in his glasses.
In contrast,an animation moment that bugs me: twice at the clocktower, once while fighting Brooklyn, and again when he's hanging unconcious between Maggie and Claw, Fang is inexplicably replaced with Talon. It just so mars otherwise good moments.
During the fight at the tower, I love it when Brooklyn uses the clock hand to get the jump on Fang. He looks so neat doing that.
On the subject of fights, Goliath and Talon's skirmish in the Labyrinth always puzzles me. Goliath seems to fare pretty poorly in the fight, more than I would have expected from him. I sometimes wonder if maybe Goliath was hesitant to hurt Elisa's brother.
The finale in which Xanatos finally reveals himself to Talon is, without a doubt, one of the highlights of the series. Talon of course has one of those great realizations of betrayal and irony ("I trusted you! You turned me into a monster and I defended you!"). And Xanatos...doesn't gloat, doesn't patronize, he just states simple facts. And then, half-surprised half-cheerful, acknowledges Goliath. This is an antagonist for the ages.
I liked the moment when Maggie was willing to take the potion, and Talon talks her out of it. It's a great individual character & relationship moment. I really enjoy it.
Of course Goliath offers to have the Mutates join his clan. I knew that Goliath would do something like that (again, he's staying true to his personality). I also, already knew that Talon and co. wouldn't be part of the clan proper (from seeing later episodes), but I was still surprised at how the Mutates decided to stick out on their own.
It was pleasant to have a rather upbeat ending in Derek's story for a change. I was glad (and maybe a little surprised) at how the Maza family was able to deal with this change in their son. It's just so good to see such a strong family, I guess.
It was several viewings before I really noticed the open cage at the end and got the symbolism. Regardless, I liked it.
Despite some animation problems, this is a really good episode.

Cristian Alvernaz writes...

Just got finished reading your ramblings on the Gargs episodes. WOW is all I can say, reading those has rekindled what I love about this wonderful show you've given us. I know some of these are a little over due, but they were going thru my mind as I was reading here we go.

UPGRADE- This episode actually kept me up at night the first time I saw it. I, like Dingo, was disgusted emotionally of they wy the pack treated their bodies. Wolf was just physically changed, but Jackal and Hayena were down right freaky, there was very little left that was actually human (I'm guessing Jackal's head and Hayena's torso & head). a reocurring mental image was the garbage bags containing their bodies callously tossed into the GEN-U-TECH dump. Really freaky stuff.Yes, I always had considered Brok the second in command.

HIGH NOON- A personal fav. As was intended, I got that feeling of "whoah, THREE villains!" and continue to feel that way every time I see it, maybe just cause we didn't see Coldstone all that often, and he's one of my favorite characters. Comming off of City of Stone I was baffled as to why Demona and Macbeth were working together, but I came to the conclusion that they were under the control of the Weird Sisters. The "comming battle" line at the end intrigued me, my friend ws baffled by it, even beyon watching Avalon he was expecting some monstrous epic brawl, I feel the line referred directly to their machinations with the Archmage. I feel the toy of Coldstone helps to establish more the re-animated stone cause his actual skin was all cracked, a truly morbid thought indeed! I still the CS toy was the best one released followed by Bronx.

CITY OF STONE- Great episode, but I was put off by the first showing of Macbeth feeling Demona's pain. I didn't gather it, honestly ,I thought it was an animation error the first time. After re-watching it I'm like "ahhhh I get it now , those smart guy have thought of everything!" Also, I took note of Owen recognising the wrong spell, tho it took some time for the payoff, I did catch it.

The Mirror- Another fav. what can I say, it was perfect, I love it when the Gargs use their "extra" limbs for other things, like Demona's tail poking Puck and Goliath's wing in HighNoon. The only thing that was odd to me was when Demona, holding Puck with her wings, hovers into the subway. Upon re-watching I hear the sound effect of Puck hovering her , but I didn't catch this the first time.

Vows- I wish the animation was a liitle better in depicting the difference of older characters than it was, I mena Hudson had the obvious eye thing , y.Demona didn't have the arm jewelry and was thinner, and Goliath was only thinner and happier sounding. No biggie tho. I love how time travel was handled on the show, it always made perfect sence to me, leaving me explaining it to my friends (one of them STILL doesn't understnd how Gryff showed up!) Xanatos was awesome in this one! Fox's dress was reaaalllllyy low cut in the back, that's probably why their clothes were react to as such, she was real close to flashing some behind (not that I'd complain!

EYE OF THE BEHOLDER- I missed this one and cought it next re-run. Was it just me or was the animation during Act2 diferent from Acts 1&3? I liked Xanatos' variation of the armor. I was also shocked that you were able to get away with Fox not wearing anything, really interesting ;]. Of course watching this one in re-run I was spoiled to the notion that the Eye of Odin was important by the Avalon arc, but I would've noticed it anyway, the Edge was my bros' all time fav episode.

Keep em' coming and I'll keep enjoying them. now, because I'm kinda lazy, is Gargoyles 2198 merely an idea that is being pitched around or is it something more? Thanks alot!

Blaise writes...

PROTECTION

I'll be honest and say that this isn't one of my favorite episodes. Of course, in the initial airing that may have largely been the result of not having my favorite garg (Brooklyn) even appearing. And while I have definitely gotten over that, I think I really would have appreciated at least some mention of where the others were at this time (even if only "They're out on patrol...with Bronx").
Even then, there are a few other things that put me off. Broadway's "mobster lingo" for one. I'm sure some may find it humorous, and it is in keeping with Broadway's character, no doubt about that, but I just cringe every time he talks like that. I suppose I may have liked it better if there had been shots of the other characters reacting to it--Dracon and gang looking perplexed, Elisa embarrassed, and Goliath...well, the stoic look works for him.
There were other bits and pieces of dialogue that didn't really work for me, and they usually run along the lines of "stereotypical cops & mobsters" phrases (Elisa and Glasses get a few of that). On the other hand, I don't have any better suggestions for dialogue, so that's how much my two cents are worth.
And chalk me up as another one who didn't think Elisa had gone bad or was a clone (or even suspected that she was being framed--her telling Pal Joey that "Dracon's territory is [her] territory" led me to believe that she was the "lady cop" Glasses had been talking about...a conclusion I had already drawn when Glasses mentioned it).
All that said, this ep has gotten better with age for me, and there are quite a few nice things in it.
Elisa's clothes were a plus. I loved seeing her in something a little more..."fun," I guess you could say.
And while there may have been dialogue I didn't like, there was a fair amount that I did find enjoyable. Most of the one's that you listed, Greg, but also some that I like mostly because of the way the actor's read them:
Elisa: (as Goliath and Broadway attack) "Oh, not now!"
Dracon: (after Elisa has introduced Dracon to the gargoyles) "We've met."
Pal Joey: "Knock out the people, blow up the building: simple." (Gotta love that guyes ease when it comes to mob work.)
There are also some animation moments I like--standouts being Elisa's facial reactions when Dracon drapes his arm around her shoulders, and Goliath's gripping his belt at the end of Act 2 (you don't see him do that often).
Character-wise, the one's that are presented are still enjoyable. Goliath's outrage at the perversion of "protection" was something I didn't fully appreciate until later viewings. For a gargoyle that lives up to the ideals of his people, that's got to be something akin to blasphemy. [Note: I had not read Todd's comments when I wrote this, but I am in full agreement with him here.]
I loved Matt's interaction with Jaffe as well (and I could kick myself for not getting the "tilting at windmills" reference right off the bat). I also smile at how Matt looks in his disguise.
The whole supporting cast is enjoyable. Art and Lois are a nice introductory couple, and I love Art's defiance, how he almost names Dracon, only to be talked down, grudgingly, by Lois. A nice contrast in personalities, and you really feel sorry that their business of 30-years was gone in an instant.
I think Dracon, while not the mightiest of the garg's adversaries, has some enjoyable character aspects. Mostly, his chutzpah (sp?)--in his first appearance he took on Xanatos, here...he pats Goliath on the shoulder (I love G's growl). Glasses and Pal Joey are also unique, each in their own ways. I noticed Dracon's quiet insult to Glasses about how he's obviously not "the man in charge." You highlighted an interesting difference between Dracon and Xanatos, Greg--Dracon treats his henchmen in a fashion closer to a "normal" animated villain. Of course, he doesn't have the normal animated sidekicks--Glasses is more intelligent, and Pal Joey more ruthless. Seriously, Pal Joey really makes an impression here; his attitude during the interrogation, his "professional" demeanor in attmepting to blow up the laundromat, all very cool.
I didn't figure out who the laundromat owners were until after they dropped their act. :)
Dracon getting the drop on Elisa in the general store was a bit of a stretch, but I love that Elisa extricated herself from it and KICKED DRACON'S GANGERSTER @$$! I also loved it when she stuck it to Dracon about his habit of calling her "sugar."
One thing I saw in my first viewing that I really liked was the fact that Dracon's being out of jail was at least brought up. In a show like BATMAN, you don't mind that the villains just appear out on the streets again without an explanation, but in GARGOYLES, Xanatos kind of set a precedent. Bottom line, I was glad that at least some explanation was given for why Dracon was free to run business as usual.
Watching Broadway racing against the bomb's timer is always a nice sequence for me, and it still gets me how he just barely escapes the explosion.
I really liked Goliath's speech to Dracon when he had the jerk in the air. I hadn't really picked up on the clue of Goliath's eyes losing their "anger-glow," but I did find it a neat image all the same.
I also loved Goliath's, "I will protect you, you will protect me, and together we will protect this city." That was a line that really hit me.
As for the whole "Jalapena" thing...eh, it didn't leave too great an impression on me except for Goliath's one at the end. It did make for a cheesy, but somewhat fun way to finish the ep. I hadn't expected it to appear as a curse word throughout the rest of the series. I do agree that the gargs should have found some sort of substitute swear word, but I would have loved something with a more...gaelic (sp?) sound, maybe?
Anyway, while its not at the top of my list, there are things to like in this episode.

Todd Jensen writes...

My "ramble" about "Protection".

I'll admit that this isn't one of my favorite ones (more out of my personal tastes, I suppose, than anything else), although a few parts of it did stand out to me. Especially Goliath's disgust that Dracon would actually call his extortion racket "protection" (and indeed, to him, that misuse of the word would be approaching blasphemy).

Looking back on my "first-time response", I know that I definitely didn't think that the "Elisa gone bad" was a clone (maybe because the story concept here was so obviously a mundane one - Dracon, the most "mundane" of the recurring antagonists running an extortion racket - that such a notion just didn't occur to me). I'm not sure if I thought that it was a frame-up; what I do know is that I was surprised to see Elisa acting that way, and it made sense to me when it turned out that she was just acting. (I noticed that Goliath believed that she'd been placed under a spell - his 10th century upbringing naturally at work again here - but that Broadway made the correct realization almost at once.)

One nice touch during the "acting" scene for Pal Joey's benefit: Chavez mentioning about how Elisa's been acting strange lately - I can't help wondering whether she really was wondering about that at the time. (It certainly had the advantage of making the "acting" less obvious to the audience).

I've occasionally wondered just how much Dave knew about what was really going on when Elisa was visiting him in the pool hall. Did he really believe that Elisa was a crooked cop?

One other favorite part: the bit where Dracon asks Goliath if Elisa's his woman (just goes to show that he may be a crook, but he's not blind), then starts patting him on the shoulder, commenting on how he's got good taste - Goliath glowers at him for that familiarity, and Tony hurriedly retreats. (I can't say that I blame him, but I'm amazed that he was actually daring to pat Goliath to begin with).

Broadway lets out another rude crude belch while helping himself to the jalapena peppers. Though it's the last one that I can recall in the series.

I couldn't help but think that Matt looked almost hopelessly geeky in his grocery clerk disguise. Jaffe's "tilting at windmills" line reminded me of your remark about how "quixotic" is a very good word to describe Matt (I recall that I initially used it in my comments about his pursuit of the Illuminati).

We also find out how Dracon keeps on showing up again in spite of his getting arrested each time in the previous episode - though obviously, in light of his being behind bars at the beginning of "Turf", there are limits to what even his lawyers can do.

It's really great to have the rambles going again. I'm eagerly awaiting the next one.