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This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
Peter Maza arrives in Arizona to investigate Xanatos with his daughter Beth. That evening, Goliath, Elisa, Angela and Bronx depart Avalon and arrive in Flagstaff, where Beth goes to college. Fearing that her sister might be in trouble, Elisa takes the gargoyles to Beth's apartment. Meanwhile, Xanatos finally decides to bulldoze the mystic soil carving on the land he has leased from the local tribe. Almost immediately, the Coyote Trickster magically vandalizes the building site in order to stop Xanatos. Minutes later, Peter and Beth are allowed entry onto the Xanatos construction site by a mysterious "security guard". Xanatos has them arrested for trespassing.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
In order to flush out the Coyote Trickster, Xanatos Construction begins work on the Arizona property it has leased from a local Native American Tribe. The new Coyote 4.0 robot is on hand to capture the Trickster. But because Xanatos has, at this time, no real intention of destroying the Trickster's soil carving, the true Coyote does not show up.
This day in Gargoyles' Universe History....
The gargoyles, Mazas and were-panthers converges on the ancient ruins of Kara Digi. There they discover that Fara was largely manipulated by the Spider-Trickster Anansi. All concerned join forces to defeat Anansi. Fara and Tea remain were-panthers but are reconciled and vow to protect the jungle. Just before sunrise, Goliath finally acknowledges Angela as his daughter. After sunrise, Elisa tells her mother everything about her life with the gargoyles. At sunset, Elisa and the gargoyles once more return to Avalon. Diane Maza phones New York, informing her husband of Elisa's situation. Peter Maza contacts Matt Bluestone and Talon. Matt contacts Brooklyn, Lex, Broadway and Hudson.
Thanks for the "Cloud Fathers" ramble, Greg!
I will confess that I can't remember from my first-time viewing whether I was surprised or not by the revelation at the end that Carlos Maza had passed on. However, I do find myself wondering, whenever I watch it on tape now, whenever either Elisa or Beth asks Peter if he wants to "go visit grandfather" while he's in town, how many first-time viewers did suspect that Carlos was dead, and how many were surprised.
Arizona, incidentally, now has a little more personal significance to me than it did when the episode first aired; my mother and stepfather moved there a few years ago (they live in the Phoenix area). They've sometimes mentioned Flagstaff in conversations with me, but haven't as yet mentioned anything about sand-carvings of Coyote or Kachina dancers. :)
Xanatos's "cliched villainy" line is a particular favorite of mine; only Xanatos would make such a remark! Though the bit where he admits that he has no desire to kill Goliath or any of the other gargoyles - this is just a necessary part of his coyote-trap - definitely stands out to me as well. You don't see the main antagonist saying that to the hero too often in an animated adventure series!
I liked the touch of the Cauldron of Life being incorporated into Coyote 4.0. (As I mentioned once in chat, it reminds me a bit of the scene in "Camelot 3000" where Mordred incorporates the Holy Grail into his armor.) The mention of the iron obviously was a foreshadowing of what was coming in the very next episode. (Was Xanatos's follow-up remark of "Ironic" intended as a pun, by the way?)
I also got a kick out of the mild confusion over "Which Coyote are we talking about here?" - the best part of all being when Coyote the Trickster threatens to sue Xanatos for trademark infringement. (And Xanatos's response that he's a "trickster at heart" rings true to me - the man's living proof that you don't have to be a Child of Oberon to be a trickster. He fulfills the archetype just as surely as Puck, Raven, and the rest do.)
I hadn't noticed the similarity of the Coyote robot to Wile E. Coyote until you mentioned it here at "Ask Greg" (not in this ramble, but in earlier answers to questions), but I certainly see it now. (Though, judging from the name of a certain merchant in "Vendettas", Coyote the robot isn't the only "Gargoyles" character to be influenced by Wile E. Coyote!)
So the multiple trickster story was what you'd originally planned for the Puck-and-Alex story before you decided to merge it with the Cold Trio for "Possession"?
Thanks for another enjoyable ramble, Greg.
I'm not sure the iron/ironic thing was an intentional pun. But it was so long ago, I may have forgotten.
The Multi-Trickster story was indeed slotted for our 64th episode... with Reckoning planned as our 65th. Then at some point, we learned that Hunter's Moon would not be a direct to video, but would instead have to be folded into our regular series. So HM1-3 became episodes 63-65. Reckoning was moved back to 61, so that we'd have at least a little Demona distance between Reckoning and HM. And then we had to combine a few springboards to make room for Hunters Moon. (For example, Vendettas was a combo of two springboards: (1) Vinnie's Vendetta and (2) Hakon & Wolf's Vendetta.)
So another couple of springboards we combined were the Multi-Trickster story and the Coldtrio story. Cary Bates and I worked the combo for some time, but we finally RAN OUT OF TIME. We were on deadline, and we just couldn't crack a story with so much going on. So we simplified back down to one Trickster, i.e. Puck.
please, please, please tell me why you just cann't give me the anwser to, "can you compare Anansi and Raven the tricksters?", without makeing me do some thing for you cause I cann't put up with it.
Wow. You just like totally read my mind. It's like you knew I was going to answer with a smart-ass response two years before I even read your question.
I'm tempted to ask you to jump up and down on one foot while reciting the "Ryme of the Ancient Marineer".
And I'm tempted to be affronted about your "I cann't put up with it" attitude.
But what the heck...
I'm not sure exactly what you hope to see here, assuming your still here two years later...
But I see Raven as being nastier, more power-hungry. I see Anansi as more of a hedonist. Lazy and gluttonous.
Can you give me a family tree of oberon and titiania's children across the centuries? I can't figure out if Puck is Alexnder Xanatos is pucks nephew or not. I would really like to know about Puck's/owen's secret love that you mentioned earlier too.
I'm not going to reveal anything new at this time, but I will summarize what I've already revealed:
Lord Oberon is the son of Queen Mab.
Lord Oberon married Titania (who became Queen Titania after Mab was overthrown). (Note: Oberon intentionally did not take the title of King. Retaining his "Lord" title is his semi-skewed attempt at being more... egalitarian.)
Oberon and Titania have two children together: one male and one female. I know exactly who they are, but I'm keeping their identities and personas secret for the time being.
Oberon also has at least two sons by mortal women: Merlin and the changeling boy from Shakespeare's "A Midsummer Night's Dream".
Titania has one child with the mortal Halcyon Renard. This is Janine Renard, a.k.a. Fox.
Fox married David Xanatos. They have one child: Alexander Fox Xanatos.
Puck, a.k.a. Owen Burnett, is not directly related to ANY of these individuals.
Was Anasi living in Karadigi the whole time since he banished the people from it? If not where else did he go during the 1001 years of banishment?
Anansi is a pretty common figure in African mythology. So I'm guessing he may have done some traveling. But Karadigi was his home base outside of Avalon.
Why did Anasi have to change one of the Panther Queen's children into a panther? Is it a rule that Children of Oberon have to honor their word?
Something like that. Oberon's laws can be bent but not broken. Plus a trickster prides himself on the trick. Not on lying flat out.
How old are Anasi, Puck, Raven and Coyote? Which one is older? Which one is the youngest? Who is the second oldest and the second youngest of the four?
I haven't given this any thought. I'd probably have to do research to figure this out.
Is the Egyptian desert god Seth still alive in the Gargoyles Universe? According to Egyptian mythology, he died at some point before recorded history but that didn't stop some Egyptians from worshipping him. Then again worshipping dead guys wasn't unusual back then. I'm just curious about Seth's status in gargoyles. I would like to thank you for your time.
I have some notions about Set, but he's pretty far down my list of priorities. He's basically a Trickster figure (though a nastier one), and I already have four of those to play with.
This is a question that I've been meaning to ask for a while, but kept on forgetting to submit.
In one of your answers last year, you mentioned that, after Raven was driven by Natsilane from Queen Florence Island, he spent some time in Spain and Alaska until the time of the Gathering. Now, I can see why Raven would spend some time in Alaska, since if I recall correctly, the figure of Raven the Trickster is quite prominent in the local legends there. But I'm at a loss as to why Spain. Is there any particular significance to Raven going there?
If I said that, there probably was, but I can't remember why now.
Disappointing, I know, but honest.
Why can't I sleep?
I've been up since 7 am yesterday. This just isn't fair.
Getting to the *actual* question...(I've looked through the archives, and haven't seen this one. I apologize if I missed it. And even more so If I've previously asked this question but forgot your response because it was a smart-ass one.)
"All things are true" you say, but I would appreciate it if you would clarify this for me:
In your conception of the gargoyles universe, are all "non-mortal" beings of the Fae race, or do you allow for the existence of anthropomorphic personifications?
(My, you do get a lot of Neil Gaimen inspired questions, don't you?)
[And as Aaron seems to have become lax in his posting of webcomic (and related) links...]
Well, I hope you've been able to get some sleep since November 9, 2001...
I guess, and I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, I'm not sure how you're defining "anthropomorphic personifications"? How is that different from, say, Anansi or The Stone of Destiny?
Anansi is definitely a "Child of Oberon." Not literally his kid, but one of his race. (Note: he's not Fae, which is not a term from the series. I view the Fae as a subset of the Children. Same with the Norse Pantheon and the Egyptian Pantheon, etc.)
Whereas, the Stone of Destiny is either an enchanted object or a Child of Oberon. I've intentionally left that vague for now.
As you've seen, the New Olympians are, strictly speaking, not Children of Oberon, though they are descended from them. Do they count as anthromorphic personifications?
So, I'm not trying to dodge the answer. I just honestly don't know how to define your terms.
1.Will there be more were-panthers besides Fara Maku and Tea?
2.You said Tea can mark only one person so my question is isn't this a dumb way of propagation? I mean if Tea died there won't be any were-panthers unless anasi decides to step in.
1. I hadn't planned on any.
2. I don't think Anansi was trying to create a self-sustaining species.
Time to ramble...
This chapter was written by Adam Gilad. Story Edited by Gary Sperling, and directed by Frank Paur.
As I watch each episode with my family, I've got my journal open in front of me to take notes for these rambles. During the opening credits, my five-year-old son Benny said: "I like Gargoyles." I was very pleased, of course. Then he said, "Can you write down that?" So I did. And so I have.
SHE'S GOTTA HAVE IT
Back on the skiff, and Elisa still hasn't QUITE gotten the idea. She still anticipates being back in Manhattan. Like visiting Scotland was an anamoly, but now surely Avalon will send them home. (What did you all think at the time?)
And boy, that girl likes her hot dogs. Make her one with everything, you know?
Our Sea Monster attacks. It's a cool design, based on research that we did. (It happens to look a lot like a pre-historic whale I saw last night on a Discovery Channel special: "Walking with Pre-Historic Beasts".)
I wish we could have found a less generic name for the creature than "Sea Monster". Thunderbird is a cool name -- particularly since I have fond memories of the L.A. T-Birds from Roller Derby telecasts of my youth -- but our research never turned up another name for the Sea Monster.
Keep in mind that though we did research, we also had time constraints. We couldn't keep researching a topic indefinitely. Eventually, we'd have to use what we had and run with it in order for the story and script to be delivered on time.
But I know Gary and Adam did quite a bit of backgrounding for this story. The Sea Monster, Thunderbird, Raven and Grandmother all came from Haida stories -- though we conflated quite a bit, I think. We did always try to be as true as possible to the history and legends we were riffing on.
HEY, WEREN'T THERE FOUR OF YOU?
As the battle with the Sea Monster came to a close, my seven-year-old daughter Erin said: "What about Elisa? Where's Elisa?"
Five seconds later, Goliath surfaces and says pretty much the same thing, before fearing her drowned by shouting "ELISAAAAA!!" (Shades of things to come -- in Hunter's Moon III.)
Speaking of research, the origin of the whole episode was the fact that Totem Poles caught my eye as being a particularly gargoylesque deal. Then we did some preliminary research and found that they weren't carved in anything that seemed to resemble a gargoyle tradition. They were 'carved to honor animal ancestors'. So rather than stretch (or abuse) the truth, we decided to let the characters (and audience) be lured off course by the poles, just as we had been.
Fake GARGOYLES, right here in North America.
In many ways, I think it could be argued that what takes place in this episode is handled or covered in other episodes to come. We have another episode with a 'sea monster'... a more famous sea monster in a certain loch... coming up rapidly in "Monsters". Also in that ep, one of our cast is lost and feared drowned after an early attack by that monster. And much of Nick/Natsilane's dilemma is also re-covered with a more-important recurring character (Peter Maza) in our other Native American-themed episode: "Cloud Fathers". We even do more with a volcano in "Ill Met by Moonlight". On some level I suppose I regret the duplication of efforts. I don't think we usually did this sort of thing.
But I don't regret the episode. I had plans for Raven. Plans for Queen Florence Island. Plans for Nick/Natsilane. I still think the ep has some cool stuff in it. And I think we NEEDED to cover Totem Poles. It was a natural.
HAR with a V. VAR with a D.
I went to a high school in North Hollywood, CA named "Harvard High School". Named after the University. (Some people have incorrectly stated I went to Harvard for college. But I went to Stanford for Undergrad and U.S.C. to get my Masters.)
I don't remember who's idea it was to have Nick be a graduate of Harvard. Might have been mine. Harvard of course is useful as a symbol.
I like Nick/Natsilane. He's got some nice attitude here and a nice shift. Maybe not the most impressive of our so-called "International Heroes". But very likable.
I give a lot of credit to the voice actor for bringing him to life. Gregg Rainwater was brought in by our Voice Director Jamie Thomason. Gregg was terrific. We used him again in Cloud Fathers, but I've used him many times since Gargoyles. I've even written parts with Gregg in mind. He was Jake Nez in Max Steel. And I cast him as Jake MacDonald in 3x3 Eyes. He always brings incredible humanity to a part, I think. Heroic, but real.
THAT'S NOT A CROW
It's a raven. Our second Trickster makes his first appearance. Of the four (Puck, Raven, Anansi and Coyote), Raven was the guy we gave the most evil bent to.
I like all the shape-shifting he does. (Though when he flees at the end, I wanted him to flee in his bird form, not his Raven-Goyle form.) I also like how he lies by using pieces of the Truth.
Raven-Goyle: "There is an evil sorceress named Grandmother. She summoned the monster that you fought."
When he said that, did you believe him?
Of course, Grandmother does have magic power and she did, in a way, summon the Sea Monster.
IT COULD BE WORSE. I ONCE LIVED ON 28TH STREET.
While doing our research, we encountered names of Islands off the Canadian coast like Queen Charlotte Island. So I named the fictional island we'd be using "Queen Florence Island."
Growing up in Woodland Hills, California, I lived on Queen Florence Lane, a street off Queen Victoria Road. Victoria and Florence were the daughters of Michael Curtiz, the director of such films as CASABLANCA. Curtiz, at one time, owned all the property in that area, so he named the two streets after his daughters.
OR so I once was told... by a ghost named Humphrey who tried to convince me that he was Humphrey Bogart, though you could tell by looking at him that he wasn't.
WHO EXACTLY IS THE SICK ONE HERE?
Elisa is so strong so much of the time, that it's kinda sexy to see her vulnerable and feverish.
Notice that Grandmother doesn't use Fairy magic to heal Elisa. She uses Haida medicine. Thus the rule of non-interference is bent not broken.
I like when Nick comes back in and the Fever's broken. And he says just don't tell me you cured her with tree bark.
When she says, "...and roots." His expression is priceless.
I like the lighting in the Volcano scene.
Goliath is so glad to learn that other clans have survived, that he doesn't notice -- in fact defends -- the inconsistencies in Raven's story.
Angela, on the other hand is suspicious. This was done, in part, to further develop her character. She's naive about certain things. Having been raised by humans, she's not inclined to judge them harshly or fear their prejudices. But she's not stupid. Something doesn't smell right and she notices.
For once, Bronx though does not. I chalk this up to the high quantity of magic being tossed around on this dying island. Grandmother is not what she seems. Neither is Raven. Bronx is confused.
Anyway, Goliath speaks to Gargoyles protecting to explain away why "Raven's Clan" can both hate humans and protect them. You get the sense that he understands all too well. Like despite everything, there's a part of him -- a prejudiced part -- that hasn't forgiven the human race for what happened at Wyvern. (Also keep in mind, he was just at Wyvern again, rehashing all those old memories.)
Of course, once Goliath learns that Raven was pulling something, he's furious at the trickster. Playing on his hopes AND his prejudices, Raven has risked G's wrath.
At the end of this scene, the three silent gargs vanish magically.
Erin said: "What happened? What just happened?"
Benny said: "How did they just vanish?"
They know I know the answer. But I resist telling them. It's a touch cruel. What did you guys think?
YOU CAN TAKE THE GIRL OUT OF THE CITY...
Elisa is such a New Yorker. Everything is compared to that. "This sure isn't Central Park."
Anyway, Raven, then a bear, then Bronx and finally Angela and Goliath find Elisa. I love Goliath and Elisa's hug. It's so unselfconscious. They were so worried about each other that they forgot the usual distance that they maintain.
So who did you trust? When the gargs disappeared, that had to indicate that something was up with the Raven-goyle.
So when Goliath tells Elisa that Grandmother is a sorceress, particularly given that Grandmother saved Elisa's life, we all tend to think that G's been duped. Then we spot Grandmother turning into Thunderbird. What did you all think then?
Benny noticed "her ears" and suspected her even before she turned into T-Bird.
THAT'S GOTTA HOIT
A cool moment in the battle against T-Bird is when Goliath rakes the creature with his claws.
Then Angela spots the Illusion. And plays it cool with Raven.
I like Goliath's line to Grandmother: "We live. We do not thrive."
Grandmother than establishes that Raven is a Trickster and that they are both "Children of Oberon". Thus we establish that aspect of our series.
She states that they are forbidden from directly interfering in human affairs. Reinforcing what the Weird Sisters said a few episodes before.
Raven joins the party. The jigs up, but he revels in it. He's got a few decent lines too.
I like "It's so messy."
POOR HORATIO, ALWAYS A BRIDESMAID, NEVER A BRIDE
Elisa more-or-less quotes Shakespeare: "There are more things in heaven and earth, Natsilane, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
I've always loved that line.
Anyway, Goliath and Angela depart to fight Raven. They arrive first, but given the fact that Nick had to...
1. Have a final change of heart.
2. Change clothes.
3. Get up to the volcano without wings.
...He makes good time, don't you think?
Raven brings the totem beasts to life. This was always a bit weird. We introduce illusion gargs based on the totem beasts. But then when we bring the totem pole to actual life (or semblance) we have new designs for the woody creatures.
Does everyone see Goliath play dead for that bear?
Raven has a nice exit line here: "This place no longer amuses me."
Neither does this Ramble.
You know that comment one of those peepers made about Oberon's children and fear of death etc? I found it very very interesting. It makes me wonder just a little about Puck. Now I know your not him... But considering most of the gargoyles characters share a little of your own opinion...
1) Do you think Puck had any sort of 'rude awakening' mortality feeling in City of Stone since he almost shattered? I'm sure Xanatos would've probably mentioned it.
2) Or... do you think Puck is more of a "what happens happens" type of person? (one of the reasons he didn't really care too too much in "The Price" about his hand)
3) Personally I think that he's one of those 'always out to experience new things' type of persons, and mayyyybe at first it would just been like. "Le meeps! For a second there I was almost not able to have fun." And when mayyyybe Oberon limited his powers, himself to the mortal form, and exiled he might've been. "uh oh, this really isn't too good... nuts".
Of course! Maybe it doesn't actually hit him, until 2198 when Alex vanishes and he has no outlet to turn back into Puck. In essence leaving him in a possibly permanent mortal form. Because up until then, he always had a sense of immortality to him.
4) Do you think in 2198 if Owen, always being one step ahead of everything (even Xanatos and Oberon both in "The Gathering", a none too easy feat)... actually has doubts about rescuing Alexander? Or a thought go across his mind that he may never be the Puck again? Especially if its uncertain if Alex is alive?
5) Do ya think Puck prides himself on being called "the" Puck? One single word, but emphasizing as much title as "Lord" does to Oberon, for the enjoyment of things he does himself.
Well anywhos. =) just some questions on personality of my favorite trickster. wheeeee!
1. Perhaps. But Xanatos may not have mentioned it. And Puck as Owen may be quite wired as Owen, which would tend to smooth out any internal crisis.
2. Well, the hand is a different issue. Owen can afford to lose something like that (particularly before Gathering, Part II) because he knows he's Puck and can get it back at any time he feels like it.
3. I think there's truth in everything you're saying.
4. I don't think he has any doubts about rescuing Alex, who he helped raise from infancy. His own self-interest undoubtedly crosses his mind. That happens to all of us, I think. But I think he genuinely loves Alex as something akin to a son. Or at least a favorite nephew.
How did Fara Maku find Karadigi when nobody else found it?
Maybe for once, Anansi wanted it to be found...
1) There any reason why Nick Natsilane Maza is connected to all four of the tricksters? (His Maza family line is part of a tribe closely related to Coyote, Diane's family has roots with a tribe associated with Anansi, the Natsilane family is of course connected to Raven, and Nick has some relation with Owen/Puck)
2) If the answer to 1) is yes, what is that reason?
I think you're stretching the point.
Diane's association with Anansi is limited to her having met him. And Nick's association with Puck is limited to him having met Owen.
1.Who made the tools that Natsilane used to defeat Raven in Heritage? Why was it so easy for Natsilane to defeat Raven?
2.Where did Raven go after Natsilane defeated him?
1. His ancestors.
1a. Raven wasn't prepped for any opposition.
2. Spain for a bit. Alaska. Eventually to Avalon.
Who exactly were Anasi's parents?
Pops and Mr. Weatherby. (I'm gonna run out of Riverdale characters any minute now.)
How did Raven get around Oberon's non-intervention edict when he laid Queen Florence Island waste in "Heritage"?
There was pattern and precedent established. From Raven's point of view it was Natsilane who was abandoning the island. That left it in Raven's hands.
Anansi>"he came to me storyteller" how did Anansi know Diane Maza was a storyteller?
He has many ears in the jungle.
Does the cyotie dimond have anything to do with cyotie robot? How bout the immortal cyotie? What does it have ti do with either/both if it has something to do with them at all? Hope you get my language!
Connections will be made someday.
Are there actual gargoyles that resemble Raven's clan of illusion?
Ok, this has been on my mind for a while, and checked the archives and didn't find it there.
What was Raven hoping to gain by driving everyone away from Queen Florence Island in "Heritage". I don't really understand his motivations there.
I used to live on Queen Florence Lane in Woodland Hills, California.
He was looking to gain power. Queen Florence Island was a place of power. He didn't want to share.
Is Odin in any way related by blood to Oberon? In what way? How about the Weird Sister trio and the trickster quartet are they related to him by blood?
I'm not getting into this now.