A Station Eight Fan Web Site
2 - In the gargoyle version of macbeth retold via City of Stone flashbacks, why is it that the character of hecate seen in the original play was never featured?
What role would she have played?
I was hesitant about making this comment for a while, since I was afraid that it might be read as an idea. But I finally decided (especially since it only uses information directly from "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time") that it was probably safe.
You mentioned in your ramble on "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time" that the significance of the inscription on the chest containing Merlin's Scrolls, "The seeker of knowledge has nothing to fear; the destroyer everything" was that the chest was magically warded so that anybody intending to destroy the Scrolls in the manner of Hakon burning pages from the Grimorium Arcanorum would apparently have met an unpleasant fate (and that it was a good thing for Morwood-Smythe and Duane that they were seekers of knowledge). But I found myself seeing another significance to those words beside that.
Macbeth's purpose in stealing the Scrolls was to use the magic that he believed was in them for his own purposes, apparently as part of his hunt for Demona. Goliath clearly feared that others would be after Merlin's magic for the same reason (such as Xanatos - and indeed, we've seen at least two other magic-workers in the series who would have no doubt been eager to exploit the spells that Merlin's Scrolls were thought to contain for their own dark ends). I believe that you could term anyone seeking to put the Scrolls to such use a "destroyer".
But it turns out that the Scrolls are of no value to a "destroyer" in that sense, but only to the "seeker of knowledge" - for what they contain is not Merlin's spells but his memoirs about his life and his tutoring the young King Arthur. Such information seemed useless to Macbeth, but a "seeker of knowledge" would indeed have found them invaluable - an eye-witness account of King Arthur's times, written by Merlin himself! So indeed, in a different sense than you mentioned in the ramble, the search for the Scrolls of Merlin would only be rewarding to the "seeker of knowledge" and not to the "destroyer".
I like that analysis... and it fits in with plans I have. Stay tuned...
Here is a question I've been meaning to ask you for a long time.
Demona and Macbeth's link implies that they will basically live eternally until one kills the other. However, I wonder - does that not mean that they can still be maimed, crippled, or permanently physically disabled? Mentally damaged? They seem to have survived things that should have been fatal, and because of the enchantment it is acceptable that they survive. But why not even sustain serious injury? On top of surviving, will their bodies always be restored to a state of full health?
Additionally, gotta say that I'm loving the comic book! I'm not going to say a lot about it here, because I'm sending a letter through the snail mail, but just gotta let you know that it's good to be back in the Gargoyles' universe!
Thanks. It's good to be back for me too.
I've answered your question MANY times before. Which is to say, I can't answer it. They've never been maimed, etc. So how would I know?
Why did Macbeth allow Banquo and Fleance to fight (and possibly kill, since he surely knew their attitudes towards gargoyles) Goliath's clan members right after Goliath and co. saved his life? You've always seemed baffled that some people considered Pendragon to be an out-of-character episode for Macbeth. I've never understood that. He's just plain spiteful towards Arthur, seems on pretty bitter terms with Goliath's clan (he even refers to them as "my enemies," etc...
Well, let's just agree to disagree.
Is Macbeth still wealthy by 2198?
Is Demona still wealthy by 2198?
I'm not revealing this information at this time.
Does being aged physically from 35 to 52 have much of an effect on Macbeth? He seems to be in incredible shape for his physical age, much better than that of someone younger.
He's in great shape. 52 is the new 42, I'm told.
Who does Demona hate most: Goliath, Macbeth, or Elisa?
I feel like I've answered this already. But even if I haven't... Why quantify something unquantifiable.
But if I had to guess, I'd say Elisa.
In COS part four, Luna tells Macbeth "And thus you both shall live, eternally linked, sharing each others pain and anguish. With no release until one destroys the other. Only then shall both finally perish, together. What she making a prophesy of what would occur, or was she just stating the rules of their link?
You said on the COS dvd commentary, when Demona swings Macbeth around, "I think she's just a little bit in love with him there." While I don't think it was an strong romantic love, I do think she was much more affectionate towards him than she would have been to someone else. We never see her that friendly towards anyone else she's not romantically involved with, not even her own clan members. My question is, was she aware of it? Was he? Was Gruoch? >=)
No. Not really. No comment.
Why hadn't Macbeth and Gruoch gotten married by 1032? They were 27 years old by the time she was betrothed to Gillecomgain. Why didn't they marry before that?
He had NO prospects. And Duncan probably wouldn't give permission (as both were of the royal blood). The fact that both were still unmarried to anyone else at the advanced age of 27, I think is an indication of how much they were in love.
Was Macbeth genuinely in love (not just smitten) with Dominique? I only ask this because he had known her for such a short time, and even then knew very little about her.
I believe I'll let the story stand on its own without my commentary. You can evaluate for yourself.
Someone asked if Macbeth had ever been married to anyone other than Gruoch and Dominique, and you said "Maybe, but not often." Why not? Why didn't he get married more often?
It's painful to survive one's loved ones. It takes powerful incentives to overcome the natural resistance to get that close to someone.
You've said that Macbeth sometimes works as a stage actor. In what sort of productions? How well does he get along with taking orders from the directors? =)
He's done some Shakespeare, certainly. Probably other stuff as well. Maybe some Stoppard or Shaw. I could definitely see him doing some Shaw.
And I'm sure he got along just fine with the directors. He's not a prima dona or anything.
What was Macbeth's relationship with Gillecomgain like after Gillecomgain became the High Steward of Moray?
What was Macbeth's relationship with Bodhe like after he became King in 1040? By 1057, neither he nor Luach seemed particularly fond of him.
I think they were FOND of him, actually. Doesn't mean they agreed with him much.
How was Demona able to get Macbeth to marry her in such a short time? He only knew 'Dominique' for less than a month, according to the dates you've given.
How do YOU think?
You said that, besides pain, pleasure also passes between Macbeth and Demona. Why would the Weird Sisters toss that in? Doesn't it creep Mac and D out a bit?
For that matter, when did they first find out about that? It must've been a pretty shocking experience.
Your premise is faulty. You make it sound like the Weird Sisters made a choice. No one has definitively stated that. They made a link.
As to Mac & D's reaction, etc., I'm not revealing that now.
Did any of the historical events of Macbeth's reign also occur in the Gargoyles universe? For instance, his war with Duncan's father, Crinan, his pilgrimage to Rome, etc...
Yes. All or nearly all.
Why did Macbeth have Banquo and Fleance as best man and maid of honor at his wedding? He doesn't seem to like them, and the feeling seems to be mutual. So why did he bring them all the way to Paris for his wedding?
They were his employees. They didn't come for the wedding. They came to serve his needs, whatever his needs might be.
Why did Macbeth want the Scrolls of Merlin? That was never answered in the episode Lighthouse in a Sea of Time.
Yes, it was, actually. He thought they'd contain powerful magical spells... useful (potentially) in his conflict with/hunt for Demona.
What was the relationship between Macbeth and Duncan like during the eight years that Duncan was king? By 1040, he seemed to trust Macbeth enough to go walking with him and his son.
Macbeth tried to demonstrate his loyalty. Duncan always regarded these attempts with suspicion.
You answered, when asked if Macbeth and Demona share emotional pain, "Metaphorically." I didn't quite understand that. Could you explain in greater detail?
Where did Macbeth go when he fled Scotland in 1057? Did he ever return?
I'm not answering the former at this time. But, yes, he has been back to Scotland since 1057.
Did Macbeth really die when Canmore stabbed him? The Weird Sisters said to Demona that "though the pain is great, child, you are unharmed." Were she and Macbeth alive, but in pain, when Canmore declared himself victorious?
Six of one, half dozen of the other.
Can Demona or Macbeth sustain permanent damage? Like scars, lost limbs, etc... They're in impeccable shape for people who've been, as you said in one answer, "stabbed, shot, etc."
The question isn't can they, but HAVE they.
Does Demona still think that Macbeth was planning to betray her in 1057?
What was Macbeth and Demona's relationship like when he was king? How well did they get along?
What do Macbeth and Demona think of that golden age during his reign as king?
Macbeth probably sees it as a glorious time, capped by betrayal.
Demona probably sees it as part of an elaborate scheme to lull her into a false sense of security.
Does Demona know that Macbeth is no longer actively hunting her?
Are you so sure he's not?
How did Canmore find out about Macbeth and Demona's link? How did those rumors get started?
Think about it. Macbeth ages nearly twenty years in one night and suddenly has a gargoyle ally... Plus a few people knew about the "bargain" including Bodhe. Word was bound to get around. Not necessarily accurate word. But word.
Did Demona's low opinion of humans change at all during Macbeth's golden age of rule? She and her clan's treatment was very different from what it had been before, and his reign is the only time we ever see Demona truly happy and content.
I think it did -- at least briefly but certainly superficially.
What did Macbeth's subjects think of him aging suddenly from 35 to 52 overnight? Did he ever give an explanation for the change?
I'm sure he made a point NOT to give an explanation, and I'm sure everyone assumed the truth, i.e. sorcery.
Did Macbeth have any advisors other than Demona? If so, how well did they get along with Demona?
Clearly, he had Bodhe, who was probably afraid of Demona. But I'm sure he had others, and some would have gotten along with her better than others did. But I tend to think that Demona reported directly (and to some extent privately) with Macbeth, limiting her "camaradery" with the rest of his "staff".
What's Macbeth opinion about Gargoyles as a species?
See issue #2 of the comic for a fairly good idea.
The Scottish people seemed pretty hateful/fearful towards gargoyles before Macbeth's reign. How was he able to change opinions and get people to accept Demona and her clan?
Winners tend to get to make the rules. And the gargoyles helped the winning side win. So that went a LONG way toward reducing more OVERT prejudice.
Does Macbeth have any close friends? If so, do any of them know who he really is?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
Who came up with the idea for the Paris scheme against Macbeth? Thailog or Demona?
Is Macbeth conciously aware of how much his morals have changed since his youth? He does things in the present that he would never have done when he was young (attacking innocents to trap an enemy, theft, etc...) If he does realize how much he's changed, how does he feel about it?
I'll leave that to audience interpretation, I think.
Why didn't Goliath and co. (when they were in Paris) tell Macbeth about the Weird Sisters controlling him and Demona? Even if only to prevent him from being susceptible to their manipulations again.
How do you know they didn't?
What was Macbeth's position in WWII? We know he fought in it, but from what angle? Was he in the British or American militaries? Did he fight independently? Other?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
You've said that Macbeth doesn't get involved after the Space Spawn invade Earth in 2198, until some time later. Why? Surely he wouldn't just ignore his planet being taken over. He fought in WWII. Why would he stay out of this far more important war?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
Macbeth said to King Arthur that he was too long a king to serve another. Does this mean that he's never served or worked for anyone post-1057?
No, it doesn't necessarily mean that.
You've hinted that Luach was conceived during the time that Gruoch was married to Gillecomgain, with Macbeth being the father. Why would he and Gruoch take such a risk? He gave her up for her own safety... committing adultery would probably have resulted in her execution.
Yep. So why would they take the risk?
The only answer I have is... why do you think?
Just to be clear, I'd like to make the point that I haven't "hinted" that Luach was conceived during Gruoch's marriage to Gillecomgain. Luach was definitely conceived during that time. I have suggested that PERHAPS Macbeth was the biological father, but that neither Gruoch or Macbeth know for sure.
im asking about the famous line of lady mcbeth one of shakespeare's charater which starts with "blood, blood, blood"
What about it?
I've never asked a question here before, probably because I didn't have the patience to wait, but I just wrote this analysis of Demona and Macbeth's link for the GFW website, and I wanted to see what you thought of it. Am I on the right track?
Curses and Prophecies, Fate and Freewill
(Warning: This essay contains minor spoilers for Harry Potter books five and six. It's mostly about Gargoyles, so if you don't read HP you'll still understand this, but if you plan to read them soon, you may wish to stop reading now.)
Like most people reading this, Gargoyles had a major impact on my life. For me, the best it ever got was City of Stone. In fact, I would say that CoS was one of the highlights of my childhood. I still distinctly remember, when I was twelve years old, reaching the end of Part Three, seeing Demona advancing on stone Elisa with a mace, and then the words "To be Concluded." "You're telling me I have to wait a whole day to see what happens? I'm supposed to go to school? Screw that, I want to know how Elisa survives!" I've thought long and hard about CoS, and the key to it is the relationship between Demona and Macbeth. In fact, I think the Weird Sisters' spellcasting is, from a classical sense, the climax of the entire story. On the surface, the spell seems simple enough: Demona and Macbeth are linked so they feel each others' pain, and they will live forever. If someone were to kill one of them, (s)he would die and then quickly come back to life. If one of them were to kill the other, though, then they would both die. As I say, it seems simple. After reading Greg Weisman's numerous responses on the subject, I began to think about whether there was more to it than meets the eye, and it slowly dawned on me that it was much more subtle, deep, and brilliant than I'd ever considered.
For years, Greg has received questions like "What would happen if Macbeth got his head cut off? Would it reattach itself? Would it grow back immediately?" He has always answered something like, "Well, that hasn't happened, has it?" At first glance, that seems like just a weak cop out, with Greg trying to avoid a question he has no good answer to. In fact, he seemed to get pretty flustered at the way people kept projecting Highlander concepts onto Macbeth, which was probably inevitable given that they're both immortal Scottish nobles. Unlike Highlander, though, there are no explicitly stated rules as to how immortality works; all we have to go on are the Weird Sisters' words, and they clearly are not the most trustworthy or forthcoming of people. Remember that Luna is supposedly a representative of fate, and then think about the fact that the spell doesn't really talk about "what if this or that happened," but rather "what will happen." The final words of Luna to Macbeth in the past were that "you both shall live, eternally linked, sharing each other's pain and anguish, with no release until one destroys the other. Only then shall both finally perish together." From that, it's clear that the Sisters are not interested in playing hypotheticals about all the different ways things could happen: they simply pronounced what will happen. Rather than the spell being simply a safeguard against their dying, it could instead be thought of as a prophecy declaring quite simply what will happen to them in the future.
It turns out that at no point in the entire series do we see anything happen to either Demona or Macbeth that would be sure to kill them. In fact, there are only two times it really seems likely that one of them could die. The first is when Macbeth was stabbed in the back by Canmore- painful, to be sure, but not necessarily lethal. Certainly there are those who have survived a poorly aimed stab. The second is when Elisa shot Demona with Macbeth's electric gun. That one seems even less likely, as about three gargoyles get shot with one of those things in any given Macbeth episode. One might make a case that the roller coaster collapse in The Reckoning was potentially lethal, but that falls under the old comicbook rule of "if you don't see the body, the guy's not dead," and the fact that we know Thailog survived as well makes it clear that magic was not necessary to live through that incident. So, we have established that we have never seen anything unquestionably fatal befall Demona or Macbeth. Furthermore, Greg has told us that no such thing has ever happened. Knowing that, it follows that it is meaningless to ask what if such a thing were to happen- it hasn't! Such speculation is what is known logically as a vacuous proof: If A occurs, then B occurs, given that A is an impossible event. Consider the statement "All pink elephants can fly," or, more precisely, "If A is a pink elephant, then A can fly." This statement is absolutely true, since every pink elephant in the world can fly- there are none, so anything you can say about them is true. A simpler way of thinking about it, though less rigorous, is that the statement "all pink elephants can fly" could never be disproved, since to do so one would have to find a pink elephant that could not fly, which can never be done. It is equally true that every pink elephant cannot fly. What this means, then, is there's no point asking "what if Demona or Macbeth were beheaded" if it cannot happen- it's true that if Macbeth were beheaded, he'd die, and it's true that if he were beheaded, he would be revived, and it's true that if he were beheaded, they'd both die, etc. All of those statements are true, because they are all based on an impossible hypothetical.
So let us then accept that neither of them has ever been beheaded. That still doesn't prove that neither of them could ever be beheaded, in which case it would still be relevant to ask what would happen. To answer that, it's worth thinking of the Weird Sisters' pronouncement as a prophecy rather than a spell. Suppose we think of the Macbeth/Demona connection in these terms: The spell allows them long life and they share each others' pain. Since they share pain, if one of them were killed, then the other would die too. Then we see that what Luna meant by saying that they would live on until one destroys the other is not that they are somehow magically protected from injury, but simply that she was predicting what would happen, as an avatar of fate. Such a prophecy brings Harry Potter to mind. When Harry was an infant, a prophecy was made which roughly stated that either he would kill Voldemort or Voldemort would kill him. That prophecy was overheard and found its way back to Voldemort, who immediately acted on it by attempting to kill Harry and fulfill it in a way favorable to him. In so doing, he nearly destroyed himself and gave Harry powers that would enable him to finish Voldemort once and for all. Moreover, he gave Harry a desire to end Voldemort. Harry lost his parents and knew first hand the sort of pain Voldemort inflicted on others, and so he would not rest until Voldemort was finished. On the other hand, Voldemort believed in the prophecy, and thus saw Harry as the greatest danger to him, so he would not rest until Harry was dead. So the result was that the two enemies were both determined to kill each other. As such, it was inevitable that one of them would eventually succeed, and the prophecy would be proven true. However, it was not true because of some incomprehensible hand of fate hovering over them, but rather it was based on simple extrapolations from the subjects' characters, and the fact that they knew about the prophecy (fittingly enough, Rowling has acknowledged Shakespeare's Macbeth as an inspiration for the prophecy).
The same can apply to Demona and Macbeth. At the time of the spell's casting, they were already great warriors, and with unlimited time to practice, they would become even greater. So it is highly unlikely that anyone else would kill them. Yet based on the events of their falling out, an intense hatred blossomed between them, one that would keep them hunting each other and make it inevitable that one would eventually kill the other. And since Macbeth heard the Weird Sisters' pronouncement, he believed that he could not die without killing Demona. It never would have even occurred to him to jump off a tall building and see what happened, because he believed that it would fail. Thus, the prophecy has the added bonus of controlling any possible suicidal tendencies Demona or Macbeth might develop by telling them it's impossible to kill themselves, since while Luna's side of their personality may simply be prophesying, Selene's needs them to survive for their future plans. Plus, even if Macbeth thought it would work, he probably would still feel the need to settle the score with Demona first. With all of that in mind, it is not hard for the avatar of fate to predict that one of them will end up killing the other, and the fact that she makes the prediction helps it to occur.
The question then is this: Is there a difference between saying something cannot happen and saying it will not happen? Suppose a man plans to stay home one day. Can we then say that it is impossible that he will get in his car and drive to another state that day? Let's say it's early in the morning, so he's got plenty of time. He's got a full tank of gas. He's not in Alaska or Hawaii, so there are connecting states he could go to. However, he has no desire at all to do so. Without that desire, it simply will not happen. We can then say that it is impossible. Now the obvious objection is that one never knows for sure what might happen, and if an emergency came up, he might have to leave the state that very day. For that reason, we distinguish between what can happen and what will happen- something can happen if it would happen provided the will to do it existed. If we knew for sure that the man would choose not to leave that day, it would then be fair to say that it was impossible for him to leave. Likewise, if we know with certainty that Demona and Macbeth will not die until one destroys the other, then we can say that it is impossible for anything else to happen.
This theory may seems very complicated at first, but if you take the time to think about it, it makes more sense than most other explanations out there. Rather than rely on vague magic powers and convoluted rules of "what if Demona were smashed in the day?" this theory eliminates all of the guesswork and gives an answer without the ambiguity; one that ultimately is simple and inevitable, yet firmly in the hands of the players. By thinking of Weird Sisters' spell as a prophecy, we can help resolve the fate vs. free will argument. Luna is an embodiment of fate, and so she is able to make predictions in the future, yet they are based simply on reading the characters of the subjects. While the prophecy that Demona and Macbeth will eventually die when one kills the other is a pronouncement of fate, it is only made true because of Demona's lack of trust and irresponsibility and Macbeth's lust for vengeance. The same could be said of the prophecy that Macbeth, Lulach, and Canmore would all become king- it wasn't hard to see that Duncan's paranoia would lead to him moving against Macbeth, a confrontation which would ultimately lead to Macbeth's ascension.
But what if you paint an elephant pink? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Otherwise I DO think you're on the right track.
I just caught City of Stone on the fantastic Season 2 DVD set, and a good (or so I hope) question occurred to me. Given Macbeth's on again/off again suicidal tendencies, was he masquerading as the Hunter in the hopes that Demona would take one look at him and nail him with a bazooka? Or was he just trying to go for a more satisfying psychological advantage in a hand-to-hand fight?
Definitely the latter, subconsciously the former. Though I think he probably had a clear preference to be the one doing the killing (and dying as a result) as opposed to letting Demona kill her. He'd have settled for either (at that time). But I do think he had a preference.
Hi, my question concerns Demona and Gruoch, two of my favourite characters (One of my favourite moments in "Gargoyles" is when Demona goes completely against her prejudices and saves Macbeth and Gruoch when they're slipping from the parapet, and Gruoch's nervous little "thank you" to her afterwards). But anyway:
1. During the "Golden Age" of Macbeth's rule, how well did Gruoch and Demona get on? Or to make the question a bit more generalised, what was their relationship?
Obviously they wouldn't have been best friends, but I also can assume that as such close companions to Macbeth they would have spent a reasonable amount of time in each other's company.
2a. Would they have considered each other as a "friend"?
2b. Or was there a little bit of resentment/jealously/competition going on in terms of their separate relationships with Macbeth?
2c. Or did they just stay out of each other's way?
Thank you very much in advance for any reply you give me, I think the time and effort you put into communicating with fans is amazing! My fingers are crossed that the second half of season two will make it to DVD.
1. I'd like to explore this someday. But generally, I think they got along on the surface, but that each had a healthy suspicion of the other.
2a. Try "ally".
2b. I'm not sure I'd characterize it that way. Demona distrusts humans. Gruoch distrusted Demona.
I was just wondering: you've mentioned that you had two more loves planned for Demona. As far as MacBeth is concerned, did you have any loves planned for him? I've read through the archives, and maybe I missed it, but you mentioned that MacBeth did have other marraiges, but not often. Were there any that we would find out about between 1996 and 2198 (aside from "Dominique")?
Dear Mr. Weisman-
I was wondering if you could clarify how William Shakespeare fits into the Gargoyle universe. Was he aware of the Third Race in some regard, or was he just a very talented writer whose stories were closer to truth than fiction?
Thank you for your time, and for your creation.
Will's place in our world is a story I've yet to tell, but want to tell -- eventually in the comic book. So I'm not going to spell it out here, other than to reiterate what I've already revealed: i.e. that Macbeth was a friend to Will, though Will never knew that Macbeth was MACBETH.
And, oh, yes, Will wrote his plays.
"31. What is the extent of the sensations that can be felt between Demona and Macbeth via their link? Can they feel other things besides pain?
Simple touching doesn't pass from one to the other. Intense feelings of pain and pleasure would."
So if the happened to have sex, it would be some sort of transfering chain re-action of pleasure?
I searched the archives, but I may have missed the answer...
Given his suicidal tendencies, why does Macbeth bother to put up such a fight against Demona at the end? As he opens his secret stash of weapons before the final battle, he says something like "Demona, it ends tonight." He's had 900 years to think about his situation, so it struck me as odd that he temporarily seems to forget that he can effectively kill Demona by letting her kill *him*. Why does he bother to jump out of the way of her shots? And why does he have such a quick change of heart after Elisa "kills" Demona?
P.S. Thanks so much for continuing to answer questions. Gargoyles was an amazing creation. I hope you feel some pride in the accomplishment. (I'm 31, and every time I watch an episode, I'm amazed at how well the whole story ties together. Truly great work. Thanks!)
I think Macbeth has seen in the past that Demona is not as consciously suicidal as he sometimes (and I emphasize "sometimes") is. He couldn't count on her being willing to kill him, since she knows that would result in her own death. In fact the best way to get Demona to gun for him is for him to gun for her and raise her anger to overcome her reason.
Plus, let's be honest, the guy is pissed off and humiliated and he'd like a bit of payback on his way out the door. His preference: he kills her, kiling them both. Just more satisfying then standing there like a target.
As for jumping out of the way... see above and also instinct. The fight or flight instinct is hard to overcome no matter how suicidal you may be. And Macbeth has always been a bit ambivalent on the subject at best.
Finally, why does he calm down? Well, a lot of the white hot anger has passed. Also, once again, he has briefly experienced death, and perhaps THAT'S not all it's cracked up to be. And Goliath's words eventually help too, I would think.
But frankly, I'll leave that for each of you to interpret.
Oh, and thanks for the kind words.
How did Demona feel about having to kiss Macbeth in "Sanctuary"?
I'm sure she told herself it was a necessary evil.
Did Hakon die before or after Macbeth was born?
I don't want to get all gushy, but Gargoyles changed my life and you can't even begin to imagine how much I appreciate the work you've done. That being said, I have a small question. Well, a series of questions.
Is Duncan a descendant of Constantine or Calvin? I guess what I'm asking is: Did Calvin reclaim the throne from Constantine after he murdered Kenneth? When Duncan first appears, he's the prince, but it was never specified who the King was. I'd guess that Duncan was of Constantine's blood, only because they sort of look similar, and also had common virtues of treachery and deceit.
Or am I just totally off base and are we even talking about the same throne? I don't really know much about Scotland, and when I think about it, it's remotely concievable that we could be talking about two different provinces or kingdoms or houses or whatever they call it.
I apologize for all the circumlocution. Thanks again for everything.
Keep in mind, you COULD look this stuff up for yourself, but...
Duncan is the grandson of Maol Chalvim II (i.e. the Maol Chalvim we saw in "Avalon, Part One").
Constantine III (again from "Avalon") would eventually be overthrown by Maol's older cousin Kenneth III (NOT to be confused with Maol's dad, Kenneth II from Avalon).
Maol himself would then overthrow his cousin Kenneth III and rule for years.
Maol had no sons and three daughters. So he made the son of his eldest daughter, Prince Duncan (of City of Stone), his heir. (Note: Macbeth is the son of Maol's middle daughter.)
Hope that clears it up.
MacBeth was Scottish nobility and related to the king; so is he a from the line of Princess Katherine or the usurper, Constantine?
Well, they're all related, at least distantly.
But here goes...
Kenneth I (the first high king of Scotland) had two sons Constantine I and Aodh.
Connie-1 begot Donald II. Meanwhile (to keep our generations straight) Aodh begot Constantine II.
Donnie-2 begot Maol Chalvim I, while Connie-2 begot Indulf. (Up to this point, NONE of these are people we've met in the series.)
Maollie-1 had three sons: Duff, Kenneth II and [the fictional] Malcolm of Wyvern, while Innie begot Culen.
Kennie-2 (Katharine's uncle) begot Maol Chalvim II (Katharine's cousin) while Malcolm of Wyvern begot [the equally fictional] Katharine... and while Cullie begot Constantine III. (All of these characters, except Cullen, were featured in "Avalon, Part One".)
Maollie-2 had three daughters and no sons.
The eldest Bethoc begot Duncan I (from "City of Stone"). The middle daughter Doada married Findlaech and begot Macbeth.
It's easier to see on a chart. But hopefully you can make your own chart with the info provided.
IN santurary why does Macbeth have a picture of Eliza over his fire place?
It perplexed me too.
This is about Demona and MacBeth. Let's say Demona's wing's or tail were injured. Would Macbeth still feel the pain even though he dosen't have them or would he not feel it at all. If he di where??
Good question. If the pain extended (for example) from wing down into the shoulder, he'd certainly feel it. Otherwise, I guess it would be very distant -- like phantom pain, maybe.
It's been a while since I asked a question here. Just couldn't think of an original question, but here some questions about Macbeth:
1. He did the best to defend the Gargoyles on Nightwatch on the Journey, so would he be more of an ally, enemy or neutral?
2. Would he play more of a role on Gargoyles or Pendragon?
3. Any plans for him to meet John Castaway (Canmore)?
1. I think at this point, he's more of an ally.
2. Hard to say in a hypothetical vacuum. He could be significant in both. He's not going to become a regular in either in the short term.
Hi Greg. I started watching Gargoyles on Toon Disney over my younger sisters shoulder a few weeks ago and haven't stopped since. Alas I've discovered that Toon Disney are only showing about half the total number of episodes, so there are probably gaping holes in my understanding of the overall theme (I get the impression there is one - correct me if I'm wrong;-).
First off, very well done. I'm very impressed. Not only are they extremely well written and animated, but there is subtlety of dialogue and expression! In a Disney Cartoon? Indeed.
Secondly: just finished City of Stone. Missed part of it the first time round. There's only one thing I can say... "Oi! The tragedy!" If Demona is not one of the most cathartic characters created in the last century I don't know who is! Despite her brutal treatment of Goliath it's hard not to empathise with her, or to enjoy her episodes perhaps more than the rest (is this unhealthy?;-). Macbeth is the perfect counterpoint, another very good character and equally engaging in his own way. However, I am frustrated. I glanced down an episode list and couldn't find anything further devoted to them. How does their story conclude? I must know!
Thirdly: somewhere I posted an e-mail to a Gargoyles site and the owner told me a film had been on the cards for the last five years, but with no apparent progress. Is anything known that you could tell? I did wonder if, when the reply mentioned it might be live action, whether this might change as a result of the successes of CGI films in recent years. I wonder which would best suit the genre - CGI or live action? With CGI the original voice cast could be used, of course.
Sorry for the long message, and thanks for indulging a new initiate.
First off, as far as I know Toon Disney regularly showed EVERY episode (in order) except "Deadly Force". (And I understand they've started showing that one too.)
I'm not sure how glancing at an "episode list" (a list of titles?) would reveal anything about the contents of our episodes.
Of course, you posted this in 2002 and it's 2004 now, so I'm assuming that if you had a real interest you've seen all the eps by now. But, yes of course we did more episodes with Demona and Macbeth after City of Stone. Many more.
My latest information is that the Live-Action movie has been put on hold. After five plus years of Touchstone actively pursuing a script, they finally gave up.
while watching "The Price" tonight, something struck me for the first time: when Xanatos builds the robot to distract the Clan while he does his thing with Hudson, why does he model the robot after MacBeth? he could've modeled any number of 'villains' or even a new character, so why MacBeth?
I think he felt that Macbeth would be the perfect character for misdirection. Had he chosen Demona, there would have been a greater risk of Goliath et al figuring out that it was a robot, because they know Demona so well. And obviously, he didn't want to chose any villains (Pack members, Thailog) that Goliath would associate with him.
Plus he needed someone that Goliath would believe knew some sorcery -- in order for his con to work.
Obviously, there were other options. But his pick made sense.
Long time watcher, first time question asker, I happen to be doing a research paper for colege concerning the literary references within Gargoyles (shakespeare and mythology). I was wondering what comments you might have concerning the way which you used these works. For example, your re-telling of McBeth in city of stone parts 1-4 is very different from the play. This makes sense because the play is an altered versain of the actual historical story to make it more entertaining as well as aceptable to the king of england. As i intend on focusing a majority of my paper to Mcbeth I was wondering how you went about combining history, shakespeare, and your own storyline. If you could make any general comments or speak about mythology in any way would be greatly apriciated. I ask not only because it would help my paper, but also it would be a personal thrill to even get a responce. I've known about this site for a while, but this is the first time i've had a decent question. Lastly, I know its quite possible this has been answered before, but i have not yet read all of the entries in the archives, you are creator and producer of one of my favorite cartoons of all time, how does one find themself in that possition of creater and producer? thanx for your time
Well, unless your paper wasn't due until 2004, I guess I'm too late to help you there.
Macbeth (with an "a" and a lower case "b") the play was indeed a major influence on our version of Macbeth, but we chose to follow the less-told tale that was the true (or truer) history. But we kept the Weird Sisters in it, and even a few lines of Shakespeare where possible. Plus of course we added the gargoyle race, weaving Demona in and out of Macbeth's story. Or rather, we weaved Macbeth's story into the tapestry that is the Gargoyles' Universe.
As to my background, I'd suggest checking the FAQ and coming back here if you have more specific questions that the FAQ didn't answer.
all this Demona/Macbeth talk (we've been reviewing City of Stone and High Noon lately, we are probably somewhere around The Gathering by the time you read this, both the episode and the event) and i thought of a question:
we know that the pain shared by Demona and Macbeth has a distance factor to it, if they are far away from each other when one gets hurt, the other probably won't feel it, but i was wondering if death is like this as well? if Demona was to get shot or whatever and died, would Macbeth miles and miles away also momentarily die?
Distance mitigates the effect, but doesn't shut it off. Pain, death, whatever.
In the Gargoyles universe, you mention that Luach was the son of Macbeth and Gruoch, and born in 1033. In actual history, Luach was the son of Gillcomgain and Gruoch, and born in 1030. After Gillcomgain's death in 1032, Macbeth married Gruoch and adopted Luach as his own son and heir, and Luach even succeeded Macbeth as King briefly in 1054. I was curious as to the reasons you modified these aspects of history?
I didn't. Not to my knowledge. My research indicates that Lulach (Luach) was born in early 1033, after Gillecomgain's death, but too soon to be Macbeth's son (at least legally). We glanced over it in the episode, but, yes, Macbeth adopts Gillecomgain after marrying Gruoch in 1032.
Further, my research indicated that rumors were rampant in court that Mac was actually Lulach's biological father, as well.
It's possible the research I received was faulty. (For example, a typo caused us to spell and pronounce Lulach's name incorrectly.) But we made every effort to weave our fiction among the facts -- without changing those facts.
The date of Lulach's birth is approximate anyway. So any time between 1030 and 1033 is probably "legitimate".
When, in "City of Stone Part Two", Duncan manipulated Macbeth into seeking out Gillecomgain to avenge his father, what was he hoping the result would be:
a. That Macbeth would slay Gillecomgain, thus ridding Duncan of an increasingly unreliable and likely rebellious former ally? (The result, of course, that actually happened).
b. That Gillecomgain would slay Macbeth, Duncan's leading rival to the throne?
c. That the two of them would kill each other, thus ridding Duncan of both of them?
Well, I'm sure his ultimate preference would have been c, of course. But either a or b were good news, so he'd settle happily for the a he got.
Silly question if Macbeth was to get his head chopped off or get blown to bit how would the weird sister's spell keep him alive?
Who knows? Maybe it wouldn't. Maybe it would.
I was just watching "City of Stone". It is a beutiful piece of work. I am very fond of it.
I espicially like the one scene where that woman runs up to Travis Marshall to relate what had happened and he just totally blows her off as "crazy". That got me thinking we ALL do that (as humans) completely discount the minority view as absurd and stupid. Classic example "The Flat Earth Society", oh, we just love to make fun of them. I have decided to be more open minded to even the most seemingly crazy ideas or beliefs. I have watched "CoS" many times but that scene never really hit me like it did just today. Was that intentional on your part? To show the err in human ways. You've said all things are true and what she said was true, just because no one believed her doesn't make it no less right. It reminded me of a Greek Philosopher I think his name was Isocrates I am not sure and his quote went
"If all mankind, minus one; were of a common opinion except the one of a differing opinion. All of mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one, than he, if he had the power; would be justified in silencing all of mankind..."
More things I loved about this episode.
King Duncan's death, in my mind one of the top 10 animated deaths ever.
Demona, saves Gruoch and Macbeth when she could have had her vengence, she chose the nobler of the two courses, made me feel all happy inside. I must admit though killing Gilcoumgain then would have saved her a lot of trouble and heart break later on.
Her plan was very sinister, and her killing of the statued humans was a very dark contrast to her more kind-hearted younger self we had just seen earlier in eps like "Vows". I also liked this too, she's not soft and weak as she is commited to her cause and for that I commend her. I agree with her goals, her means are brutal and me being human will make me possibly feel the urge to resist being smited, but I hope she sees her dream out and accomplishes it, power to her.
One thing very much dissapointed me, relating to Demona when she gave the access code to Goliath and Xanatos the code was "ALONE", not one you'd imagine she'd pick, totally took me by suprise when I first saw it; but Goliath was apparently unaffected by her choice of a password and the huge water works under her eyes. Does he have a heart of stone? She's not even real (I think), and I feel a lump in my throat, every time I see that; yet he knows she's real and didn't even care, creep.
MacBeth, what can I say I think he is great. I think his story is one of the more tragic on the show. Considering all that happens, he always loved and still loves Gruoch. The one time that we see him actually take interest in life and love again he is set up by Dominique and Thailog. His plight is very dramatic. Living but having to as Gruoch said "Remain dead", dead to his country, his home, and his family.
Gruoch: Even though she gets very little air time on the series I think she is great. My second favorite female character. She is strong, smart, wise, intuitive, loving, radiant, and very honest in commiting to her duty. I espicially like how she stood up to Demona at the end, what courage. She even scorned the Hunter as "Oh mighty" with her sarcasm, 'your not mighty your a coward'. I cannot see how you could not love her.
"COS" has its share of humorous wit to it as well. I absoulutely love this:
Elisa: "..the signal came from Pak-Media studios you own it so as usual this is your fault!"
Owen: "Mr. Xanatos is trying to fix things. What are you doing to help?"
I love Elisa's expression, that's good stuff.
-Since I do not want to go into great lenghty deatail about every detail of the show..-
King Duncan- Very paranoid.
Hudson+Trio- not much to say
Boudie(SP)- Probably has his heart in the right place but man what a --well cowardly guy--
Demona's Betrayl of MacBeth- this shocked me, leave him to die at the castle but she actually contacted Kenmore?
Wierd Sisters- I HATE them. I think they are corrupt, vile, and wicked, they should burn in a fiery lake in the seventh circle of Hell somewhere. For a very, very long time. (I make this judgement with my Knowledge of the "Avalon" eps)
Vengence begats nothing more than a vicious cycle of further vengence- true perhaps, but highly over exaggerated.
The betrayl of the Cast Wyvern- I want to know who slept at Demona's roost. When the Vikings sacked it.
Bronx and Demona's encounter- I loved it. Good job.
Demona and Macbeth- It's amazing how it goes, I like when Demona came back from the fight all happy and swirled Macbeth high off the ground. Her joyous attitude was refreshing, yet all to short in length.
That's all for this post. Thanks for listening.
A few responses to your comments...
1. Yes, the scene with Travis and the woman was a comedic way to make exactly that point.
2. Can't say I'm rooting for Demona to succeed. I'm rooting for Demona, but not in that way.
3. We had an entire contest to explain "Alone" and got some very interesting responses. You might check them out in the contest archive here at ASK GREG.
4. I think it's presumptuous of you to assume you know exactly what Goliath was feeling. But one thing to keep in mind is that he had just witnessed the results of her mass murder spree.
5. I've said this before, but we all got to watch Emma Samms blossom as a voice actress over the course of just these four episodes. She had never done cartoons before. She was a bit stiff in Gruoch's first appearance, but, MAN, by COS4, she was just ROCKING!!! I give her and voice director Jamie Thomason a ton of credit for really bringing Gruoch to life when we needed it most.
6. I'm not sure that Bodhe did have his heart in the right place -- until, I like to think, the very end.
7. The notion that vengeance begets nothing more than a vicious cycle of further vengeance, is not only true but is if anything UNDERSTATED. Hardly exagerated. One only has to look at a newspaper to see that the Montagues and Capulets of this world simply refuse to recognize this obvious, obvious FACT. It drives me insane. Your casual dismissal of the notion doesn't thrill me either. (Sorry.)
8. You're welcome. I like your posts.
In the episode "Sanctuary", how was it that Demona could knock MacBeth out cold and remain conscious herself? (right after the wedding, when she reveals her true identity to him?)
(Marina Sirtis did a pretty hokey French accent, if you ask me... ;-)
She was ready for the blow. Plus she's a garg. She feels the exact same force. But it's tougher to knock out a garg than a human.
Im a big fan of the gargoyles and all and I was wondering if the gargoyles were still on the air would you bring back the Hunter? and few other questions.. how many Hunters were in the gargoyle history? I know they were 1 in the ancient times and 3 in the present and McBeth was kind of one... and the other question if you did brought back the Hunter what kind of look would he have? a High Tech-ish look more beyond what the 3 Hunters had?
I don't know exactly how many hunters there have been. We've shown a sampling, including Gillecomegain, Duncan, Canmore, the Renaissance Hunter, Charles Canmore, Jason Canmore, Robyn Canmore, Jon Canmore. And, as you said, briefly, Macbeth. Fiona Canmore would have appeared in Team Atlantis, had that show gone forward, and Robyn would have continued as the Hunter in Bad Guys (though she'd largely be hunting other bad guys, not gargs) had that show gone forward.
There are more Hunters in the past, including some specific ones that I have in mind. But I won't pretend I've run the entire Canmore line from Canmore to Jon out in my head and listed every single one.
As for moving forward, I see the Hunters waning in favor of the waxing Quarrymen. But I'm not talking in absolutes.
what is king Duncan's reaction to the news that cawdor is a traitor ?what will happen to his title'
2-do Macbeth and Banquo have the same reaction to ROSS'NEWS?
3-WHAT ANNOUNCEMENT IS MADE ABOUT MALCOLM? WHAT IS MACBETH'S REACTION?
4-HOW DID LADY MACBETH FIND OUT ABOUT THE WITCHES' PROPHECIES?
5-HOW WILLING IS MACBETH TO GO ALONG WITH LADY MACBETH'S PLANS FOR HIM TO ATTAIN THE THRONE?
Are you writing a term paper, Hanna?
Or are you just quizzing me on my Reading Comprehension of the play?
This seems rather pointless.
What proof Can we find that Macbeth was a man filed with greed, ambitons and desire
Uh... beyond the fact that he's a human being and we are all filled with these things, at least to some extent...
And having said that, I wouldn't say that those are Macbeth's foremost qualities. (At least not in the Gargoyle Universe.) So how hard should I work to offer you proof?
I'm not sure I understand the question.
What proof do you require?
I have an off the wall question for you, in "Enter Macbeth," what was Macbeth drinking? Was it coffee, tea, or cocoa? It had to have been something hot because there was steam coming off of it. If it was cocoa, did he have marshmellows in it?
I don't know.
Time to ramble...
This episode was directed by Dennis Woodyard, written and story edited by Cary Bates.
The one word title, as usual, was one of mine. I thought initially that we'd be even more focused on the Cathedral. That we might play a Quasimodo character. Heck, if Disney's "Hunchback" movie was going to have living gargoyles bouncing around, then I could have a Quasimodo swinging from the bell-ropes.
But the story, thank goodness, rightly evolved into a family drama with Goliath, Elisa, Angela, Demona, Macbeth and Thailog (and Bronx) providing us with one very ODD family. Quasimodo went away in favor of Thailog.
And we had to work a bit to make sure the thematic idea of the heart as a Sanctuary worked its way into the picture. Thank God for that French minister, eh?
During the "Previously..." recap the following exchange was heard between my eight year old daughter Erin and my five year old son Ben, after Angela learns (in that scene from "Monsters") that Goliath is her biological father:
Benny: He IS her father. He laid the egg.
Erin: Girls lay eggs.
Benny: His wife laid the egg.
Enter, for the third time or the first (or, depending on your point of view, maybe this one doesn't count either), Ms. Dominique Destine. She tells Mac, "We have all the time in the world..."
This for me (and I know for Bond expert Cary) was a very memorable line from "On Her Majesty's Secret Service." And always a good sign that a relationship is going to come to a bad end.
Elisa tips her hand, which she can do cuz no one is awake, about how she really feels about Goliath here. "The most romantic city in the world and Goliath isn't awake to share it with me." (Or something like that, all quotations are approximate.) That's what she'd like to do, I'd wager. Soar over Paris with G. the way they soared over Manhattan in "Awakenings". Now had he been awake, do you think she would have made that request? Or would she in fact be distancing herself from him simply BECAUSE she had that impulse?
After her adventure on the Loch, it's nice to see Margot on a pleasant little stroll through Paris.
THE GARGOYLE WAY
Why is Goliath so resistant to parenting Angela? After all, though they're really more like younger brothers, he does his fair share of parenting the Trio.
He falls back on "The Gargoyle Way", but that's certainly inadequate, as Diane Maza will later point out. Yes, he's only one of her rookery fathers, but he's (a) the only one there and (b) the only one left alive except for the two souls trapped inside the AWOL Coldstone.
Ultimately, I think the answer is that Angela's sudden obssession with her "BIOLOGICAL" parentage makes him nervous because of the obvious extrapolation to what comes next. If she's obssessed with me as Daddy, then what happens when she learns who Mommy is?
And that's the key. He's divorced Demona. His wife who laid the egg. It took centuries and months, but after "Vows" he moved on. Now he sees Demona as a nemesis. A painful one to be sure, but a nemesis none the less. He's afraid of what the knowledge will do to Angela. He's afraid of what Demona will do with Angela, should Angela share that knowledge. And is he perhaps afraid of what -- under Demona's influence -- Angela might become?
There's some nice animation in this episode -- but none of it is at Notre Dame. That sequence put us through fits in retakes and editing. Ugghh. It's still painful to look at.
But there's some nice stuff going on...
Demona says: "In here my love." to Goliath before she realizes its not Thailog. What did you all think of that line? At this point we had only seen one silhouetted monster from a distance. And since you knew Demona was in town, we intentionally tried to lead you to belive that she was the Monster at Notre Dame. Were you expecting Thailog? Or did you think that Demona was addressing G as 'my love'?
Goliath's arrival is a shock to her, so what did you think then?
Then Thailog's arrival is supposed to be a bigger shock to you guys. Was it?
I love hearing Thailog say: "My angel of the night."
Demona has a good line too: "Jealous and paranoid."
Later, we set up Nightstone Unlimited and their two "human" identities, Alexander Thailog and Dominique Destine.
At this point in production, we knew that Fox was going to have a baby but we had not named it yet. I couldn't think of a better first name for Thailog and later I couldn't think of a better first name for Alexander Xanatos. At first this bugged me. But I began to realize it made perfect sense. Xanatos had programmed his "first" son well. If X would pick Alexander, why wouldn't T have picked it as well. And there's something so symmetrical about both his kids being named Alexander.
Elisa sits at a french cafe talking out loud to herself. Ugh. Very awkward. Obviously, we couldn't come up with a solution we liked better. I'm sure it occured to me to do it in voice over, but just chucking a V.O. sequence in the middle of an ep is very awkward too. Suddenly, the movie is POV Elisa, and we weren't doing that here. (Cf. "Revelations" and Matt's VO narration.)
I do like her last line though, coming as it did from a long time Superman scripter, Cary Bates: "This is a job... for the Gargoyles!"
THE WEDDING NIGHT
We had Macbeth use the Lennox Macbeth name instead of Lennox Macduff because we thought it would be too confusing to give him an entirely different name to any new viewers. And it makes sense that he has multiple aliases. But it still bugs me and I think in hindsight, I wish we had just been consistent.
Demona kicks Macbeth into unconsciousness, and Erin asks: "Why didn't she get hurt?"
And that's a very fair question. As usual with D&M's Corsican Brother connection, we tried very hard to be faithful to it, but it was very hard. And we wound up being a bit inconsistent. The best I can suggest is that when Demona knows she's going to hurt M and it isn't just on impulse, she can more or less steel herself against the magical feedback. It's still painful. But she doesn't show it as much.
The Gargoyles wake up and Elisa says: "Look alive, guys!" Well, they do now, don't they?
I love how Thailog slips Mac the gun and then later yells at Demona, "Didn't you search him?!" He's an evil genius that one. And passive-aggressive too.
Thailog's plan is brilliant, I think. So elegant. So simple. And if not for Elisa, so effective.
Mac's suicidal tendencies resurface. Demona's legendary temper gets the better of her common sense.
Thailog really comes into his own in this ep. Sure, Xanatos said he may have created a monster, but now Thailog has outsmarted X, D and M. Who the hell is left to outsmart?
And he has some great lines too:
"You and what clan?"
"Teamwork is so overrated."
"Aren't you spunky?'" (Another Lou Grant reference of course.)
To be fair, he couldn't immediately know that Angela was blood kin, but still doesn't his reaction to her give you the creeps? When X says Angela is lovely in "Cloud Fathers" I don't think anyone thought he was being salacious. But T? Yeah, baby.
Of course, Goliath finally gets the picture after this one. Up to this point, he was thinking Demona's the lost cause but maybe Thailog is salvagable. Now he knows better. At least about T anyway.
There's a lot of water in that water tower. It looks cool though. The animation here makes up for the Cathedral stuff.
I love Goliath's two-handed punch.
I love Demona's punch-drunken sway, as she makes her move to, as Mac says, "put us out of our misery..."
But I've always wondered why the background painters put multiple pictures of Elisa on the wall of Macbeth's chateau. Odd, that.
When I was young, I used to love MASH, particularly back in the Wayne Rogers days. (And, yes, Wayne is a friend of my dad's now. But they didn't know each other back then so I was unbiased.) But one thing that used to drive me nuts was the repetition of the following exchange:
<LOTS OF SHELLING IS ROCKING THE HOSPITAL. SUDDENLY, IT STOPS.>
Hawkeye: Do you hear that?
Someone else: Hear what?
Hawkeye: Silence! The shelling's stopped!
This was fine the first time they used it. By the twentieth time it got VERY old.
But we do a version of it here after Elisa shoots Demona ending the battle.
Why? When it used to drive me nuts? It's amazing what I'll pay tribute too.
KEITH meet MR. DAVID
I love playing Thailog against Goliath, because I love those Thailog/Goliath exchanges where Keith plays both roles. That's one of the main reasons we created Thailog. To enjoy listening to Keith go to town.
Goliath: "She has done you a favor, Macbeth."
That line should be a bit of a shock when G first says it. But it makes a lot of sense after he explains. And I love the look that Goliath and Elisa share. They aren't even pretending they don't share those feelings. They just won't act on them.
And how about Goliath actually telling a joke: "Just make sure you get a good look at her at night." Word.
One of the things I like about our series is we didn't have to end each episode the same way.
This one ends rather darkly. Goliath won't acknowledge the obvious. He just broods. Angela turns to Elisa: "Elisa, I have to know." And Elisa confirms that Demona is Angela's mother, because it's ridiculous to either lie or to not confirm the obvious that Angela has already figured out. But she knows G didn't want A to know that. So everyone is left unhappy as we sail into the fog.
And Erin ends the episode saying: "I think Elisa should be her mother."
(Me, I've always seen them sharing a more sisterly relationship. But I thought Erin's idea was sweet, and certainly came out of the sexual tension between E&G.)
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
In prep for my ramble on Sanctuary, here's my notes to Story Editor/Writer Cary Bates on his first outline for "Sanctuary"...
Notes on "Sanctuary" Outline...
Cary, I'm going to resist the temptation of beating this all out for you. That's how I got so far behind before. And at this stage I doubt I could do it any faster or better than you. So I want you to do a second draft on this outline, addressing ALL of the notes below. I sympathize, in advance. This is a complicated story. But I know we (meaning mostly you) can make it work. Don't take too long. And feel free to call after you've read this. We may be able to work out some of the problems over the phone. Good luck and here goes:
How does the title fit? What is the theme of the story? Is it about feeling safe? Safe in the arms of someone you love? I like that notion, but we'd have to emphasize it a lot more.
And simultaneously, more of the action should be centered around Notre Dame Cathedral. Economically, we can't afford to design backgrounds for an entire city. So we should keep the action focused on a few locations, that climax at the gargoyle covered cathedral-"sanctuary".
Plus, we don't want newspapers to be generically talking about a "mysterious winged creature". We want them focused on the Creature haunting the Cathedral at night. Maybe they think it's someone posing as Quasimodo, or his spirit or maybe they even think it's a gargoyle come to life or something. Of course, it's really Thailog. (Not Demona, by the way.) He's been there since "Double Jeopardy". Arriving long before Demona and Macbeth arrived.
We need to involve Thailog more at the end. Make him part of the conflict. I think he would have upgraded a bit. Used some of that $20 million to armor himself for battle. Not necessarily robotic armor, but at least a chestplate. Maybe wrist and shin guards. Keep in mind, we want him to be more powerful than Goliath and more threatening than any other villain. We should probably arm him with some big high-tech bazooka/laser/cannon type-thing too.
And we don't have to break up Demona and Thailog at the end. We just need to know that Thailog doesn't really care for her.
Remember, Thailog's plan isn't to kill Demona and Macbeth for the sake of killing them. He wants what they have managed to acquire over the last nine hundred years. If he could add that to the fortune he's parlayed from the money he stole from Xanatos, he might be able to compete with Xanatos financially. He needs to have already merged Demona's holdings with his own. So that his corporation (and we should get a cool, evocative name for it) we'll inherit in the case of her demise. And he wants to inherit Macbeth's stuff too. So if Mac and Dierdre marry, and both die together, (which is the only way they can die) he'll get everything.
Now, I'm not pretending this is easy to accomplish. As I read the outline, I was wondering if we needed a maguffin or two to symbolize this wealth. Maybe Macbeth's Paris Mansion itself. But we managed to figure something out for "Outfoxed" that clearly and dynamically spelled out Halcyon and Fox's "financial conflict". We can do the same thing here. With the same clarity.
Does Macbeth plan on telling "Dierdre" the truth about himself?
Is this the first time since Gruoch that Macbeth has been in love? Since he's an immortal has he avoided close relationships, not wanting to outlive his lover? Or watch her grow old? Or has he been through this before? Maybe not often, but once or twice over the last nine hundred years. How did he handle it in the past? Is he doing something different now? Highlander questions, basically.
Is Macbeth afraid for Dierdre's life? Does he think Demona might try to harm Dierdre to get back at him?
Do Goliath, Elisa and Angela assume at first that Macbeth and human Demona are in cahoots and only realize/remember later that since M&D have no memory of anything between City of Stone and Avalon, that Macbeth might not know that this human woman is in fact Demona?
Do we have an opportunity, maybe when Goliath and Elisa are searching Paris for the villains, for them to be romanitcally affected by the City of Lights?
When it's over, instead of Macbeth simply remaining bitter and once again suicidal, could Goliath point out to him that life offers possibilities... that if Macbeth could fall in love with Demona, he could certainly fall in love with someone else? Someone nice who would make his long life worth living again, at least for a time.
A bunch of things, (some of which Cary the Story Editor should have been able to catch from his reading of past scripts, tsk tsk). Some of these notes may be moot after a rewrite of the outline.
Beat 2) Goliath, Elisa and Angela know that Demona and Macbeth left Avalon unconcious and together. Wherever they landed it would also have to be together. (Of course, Goliath and Co. have been travelling for awhile. So there's no guarantee that Macbeth and Demona stayed together after landing wherever they landed. It's just a good bet.)
There's also no reason for Goliath to assume that Macbeth and Demona are involved with each other still. (After all, they hate each other.) Also no reason to assume that Macbeth would be hurt by the association. And though there's no love left between Demona and Goliath, Goliath has no reason to feel sympathy for Macbeth. The audience might. Some of them would know Mac's backstory from City of Stone and sympathyze, but Goliath doesn't know the whole story. And he's got no reason to think more of Macbeth than Demona. Ironically, it is Thailog, more evil than any of the others, who Goliath would have the most sympathy for. He sees Thailog as a victim of poor upbringing. He'd like to reform and rescue his "son".
On the other hand, by this time Goliath believes that they land everywhere for a purpose. If he sees Macbeth and/or Demona, it's not too big a leap for him to figure that whatever the purpose, it involves these villains.
Beat 4) Again, here we'd like the headlines to be more specific to the Cathedral.
Beat 5) Elisa would recognize the human Demona from "High Noon".
Beat 7) We are forcing the creation of a lot of different sets and backgrounds here. Also don't forget that Demona's transformations to gargoyle (and back) are painful. Also don't forget that Macbeth feels any pain that Demona feels and vice versa. Distance reduces the pain, but we've never been really specific about how much distance or what the reduction is. Does Macbeth, across town, feel a little of Demona's pain at transformation? If so, he could blame Demona, knowing as he does, that he feels her pain. All that would tell him is that Demona is in the vicinity. It wouldn't reveal that Demona is Dierdre, unless he saw her transform. On the other hand, Demona might be far enough away that Macbeth feels nothing. Or just a slight twinge of soreness, that he doesn't immediately connect with Demona. We can play it any of these ways, we just need to deal with this "Corsican Brother"-style pain-sharing. We can't ignore it.
Beat 10) We've got a lot of set-up with little action up to this point. Maybe we can streamline a bit. Also, it feels like Mac's hovercraft might be a little unwieldy for this sequence. Maybe he's on the flying equivalent of a jet-ski or something a bit more svelt.
But there's another big question. What is Macbeth's objective towards Demona at this point? He knows that the only way to rid himself of her is to die himself. He may have forgotten the lessons of City of Stone and Avalon, but I would think that his love for Dierdre would prevent him from wanting to die. Later we imply that he's chasing Demona in order to chase her out of town. But that's pretty goofy logic. "I haven't seen you in weeks. So I'm going to hunt you down, to make sure you stay out of my life."
Beat 11) We definitely want to do something with the Eiffel Tower. Maybe even stage a battle there in the first or second act. But the Tower is open to tourists at night. Does anyone see them hanging there? Or are we way into wee hours by this time?
Beat 13) Goliath can't steal this guys camcorder. He's not a thief. Even destroying it is pretty malicious for Goliath, who's never gone too far out of his way to hide from humans.
Beat 16) Gargoyles don't kiss. They stroke hair. And it's "Notre Dame" ("Our Lady"), not "Notre Damn" ("Our Damnation"?)
Beat 17) The Cathedral is a very temporary safe house for Thailog while some safer, new place is being built for him. (Or maybe that's part of what Thailog is after: Macbeth's Paris Mansion.) It is not abandoned. Thailog is safe their during the day, because he's like a needle in a gargoyle haystack. After dark, he can stay out of sight in the upper reaches, until the Cathedral closes for the night. But he can't have much of a set-up there. Computers? Paintings? I don't think so. Particularly when we've got reports of a creature climbing around the church at night. People might investigate. They wouldn't find Thailog. But what would they make of that computer?
Beat 18) Demona may have no desire to "see" Goliath, since she found Thailog. But she'd still want him dead. Plus she MUST be curious about this female gargoyle. She thinks she knows all the gargoyles that exist, and none of them are female. She'd have to know. (And for that matter, so would Thailog.)
Beat 19) Think about how silly it would look in live action, if a villain who looked like Thailog, whipped out a brush and in a few seconds added a necklace to a painting. It's equally silly looking in animation. Maybe moreso because it's so easy to do.
I don't understand the pre-nuptual agreement at all. Why does Macbeth feel he needs it? (And don't tell me his lawyers push him around.) Besides, the whole idea of it goes against what we want to have happen in the story. Thailog wants Mac and Demona to get married. And have Demona inherit so that he can inherit from her, when both Demona and Mac die. Or am I missing something? I don't think we want this to be about stealing money from a safe. That's small potatos for Thailog and Demona. Either we need to have some irreplaceable (possibly magical) maguffin in that safe, or we should be dealing with the whole ball of wax. The former would probably be easier, but I'd like to go for the latter ball of wax if we can.
Beat 20) Again, I don't buy Macbeth's logic for hunting down Demona.
Beat 21) Angela can't operate a camcorder. She's not Lex. (And as noted above, I don't see anyway for our guys to have this anyhow.) Plus she wouldn't recognize Thailog. Also it feels like a pretty big jump for Goliath to figure that Demona and Thailog are working together. Not an impossible jump, but a big one.
Also, I was unclear. Did Goliath have a chance to give instructions to Elisa or did he turn to stone before he had time?
Beat 23) Again, I don't believe Macbeth lets lawyers push him around. And I don't think we need this pre-nup agreement in the story.
Beat 24) I really don't like this camcorder. And I don't know why Elisa needs it here. Like if she followed Mac and Dem, returned to Goliath without visual proof he wouldn't believe her story?
Beat 25) "How can I prove my love to you?" "Give me the combination to your safe." Yeah, that wouldn't make me suspicious.
I'd almost rather play any scene like this where Macbeth is insisting on giving something to Dierdre, who protests that she doesn't want it. The more she protests that all she needs is his love, the more he wants to lavish on her. In this way, he is predictable, but he's not being fooled by "crocodile tears" into doing something that seems incredibly fishy.
Beat 26) Again, Elisa would recognize human Demona from "High Noon" the first time she saw her. But here I was entirely unclear. How does footage of Dierdre prove that she's Demona, when Elisa didn't recognize her in person?
And this bit about Dierdre being Demona's name...? Gargoyles didn't have names in the tenth century. Naming is a human convention. Goliath referred to Demona back then as his angel love, or his angel of the night. Do we want to change "Dierdre" to "Angel" or "Angelica" or "Angelique". I don't know if you still need this, since Elisa would recognize human Demona, but I suppose you could, as long as we wouldn't be confusing the audience with Angela.
Why wouldn't Goliath want Elisa along? And why would Elisa agree to stay behind?
And what is it that Angela's staring at? Footage of human Dierdre? This isn't going to help her make the connection between herself and Demona. Visual clues aren't really the answer at all, since she would have seen Demona in the Avalon 3-parter. She learned from Sevarius that Goliath was her biological father. Here she learns that Demona was Goliath's love all those years ago. She puts two and two together over the course of the episode. Figuring out the truth only after she's already come to regard Demona as evil. You won't have room here to deal with the ramifications of that discovery. You're just setting things up for another story.
Beat 27) Why does Macbeth want to capture Goliath and Angela if he wants to get Gargoyles out of his life for good?
Beat 28) Goliath is "spreading" lies? To who? I mean we know he's not. But who does Macbeth think he's spreading lies to, that makes him want to imprison Goliath to stop it?
Also Macbeth could NOT have heard about Thailog. He was under the Weird Sister's spell when Thailog made his only other appearance. Besides who would he have heard about him from?
Beat 32) Again, not at all happy about Thailog's magic paintbrush. Particularly since it proves nothing here. It's not a photograph. If Macbeth thinks Goliath might lie about Dierdre, why wouldn't he think that this is a further lie somehow accomplished by Goliath.
Beat 33) I'm glad Macbeth keeps his cook. That guy can make a mean omelette.
Beat 36) Again, don't forget that Macbeth and Demona feel each other's pain while fighting.
Beat 39) These are huge leaps for Angela to make. How does she know this about Thailog. Also does Thailog show up there, state what he states and then not get involved in the fight? Or is that a typo for Goliath? Maybe we should let the battle climax at the Cathedral. Thailog is there. Goliath tries to "save" his son from Demona's evil. (Goliath assumes this plan is Demona's, not Thailog's.) Thailog just laughs. Reveals he wants Mac and Demona to kill each other. And he'll kill Goliath to prevent him interferring. Or something like that.
Beat 41) Killing Demona would at least knock Macbeth out.
Beat 42) Again, doesn't Thailog want anything besides their deaths?
Beat 44) Goliath still needs to be in some discomfort vis-a-vis the biological mother and father thing. It's not the gargoyle way. Brynne is going to deal with this (she'll have the space to deal with it) in her Africa story. Let Elisa be the one who confirms Angela's suspicions.
Beat 45) Again, I think we're working against our own ends. Why does Thailog need Macbeth and Demona dead, if not for what he can gain by their deaths?
Beat 46) Again, I think we can let Demona and Thailog go off together. Also, we've spent the whole episode with Demona turning back and forth from human to gargoyle. Demona does not turn to stone -- ever.
Beat 47) Angela should not get any comfort from Goliath in this episode. You don't have the time to deal with it here. If she receives comfort, it would come from Elisa.
O.k. try another pass. I'd streamline, by opening with the skiff arriving in daylight. Elisa leaves the stone gargoyles on the skiff tied under a bridge and goes to explore Paris. A place she's never been. She probably calls home again. Maybe she tries her parents this time, and again gets an answering machine. To save money on a voice actor, the answering message can be one that Elisa recorded for her parents months ago. (My sister is on my parents' machine with a message she recorded two years ago.) Elisa's voice says something like: "My parents don't know how to work their answering machine, but if you leave a message for Peter or Diane Maza, there's a fifty-fifty chance they'll call you back"). You don't have to jump through hoops to get the message erased this time. Then she briefly wanders around Paris like a tourist until she spots Mac and "Dierdre" who she immediately recognizes as Demona. She doesn't know that Mac doesn't know it's Demona. She'd probably assume they're up to something bad together. And also guess that they're why she and Goliath, etc. have landed in Paris. She follows them at a safe distance, etc. She doesn't want to get spotted. Near nightfall, she might head back so that she can inform Goliath when he awakens. Or she might not want to lose Macbeth and Demona until after she's found their H.Q. Or maybe when Mac and Dierdre split up, Elisa follows Dierdre to see where she lands, then loses her among the tourists at the cathedral.
Anyway, that's somewhere to start.
1.Did the Porter from MacBeth the play exist in the gargoyles universe?
2.What about the Lennox from MacBeth the play? Banquo(not the mercenary)? Fleance(not the mercenary)?
3.Did Hecate from MacBeth the play exist in the gargoyles universe?
2. Probably in one form or another.
3. In some form.
Time to Ramble...
Director: Dennis Woodyard
Writer: Lydia Marano
Story Editor: Brynne Chandler Reaves
I guess you guys were used to longer multi-parters from us, so you probably didn't think this was the last part when you saw Part Two come up after the title. I tried something different at the end though. Instead of writing "To be continued" I had them put down "To be concluded". It seemed (at least in my head) to increase tension to know that the next part would be the last.
I've been told by people that out of context, this episode is incomprehensible. I hope it's not quite that bad, but I will say that unlike the rest of our eps, I felt that multi-parter eps don't quite need to stand alone in the same way.
Still with all the time travel stuff, it's very complex. I remember Lydia having to come into my office after her first draft and needing me to diagram the time travel for her. The loop that the Archmage takes. I love it. But I guess it's not that easy to follow.
Anyway, this ep was designed to be the second part of a tryptich. This is the one where we focus on our villains and bring them all up to date, just as in part one, we focused on our heroes. All gearing to a MAJOR BATTLE coming in Part Three.
Picking up where Part One left off, Elisa looks at Angela, Gabriel and Boudicca and says: "These are the eggs?" I love her tone there.
Guardian: "Sorry, I always call them that." It was a cheat to buy us, at least with some percentage of our audience, the shock value of expecting eggs and finding fully grown gargs and beasts instead. Still, I believe that a guy like Tom, dubbed "Guardian of the Eggs" would continue to use that term to refer to his kids, even after they are grown.
Goliath is initially shocked that the gargs have names. Angela says the standard human response: "How else would we tell each other apart?" This was done intentionally to both cover the issue of non-garg naming (which I still think is neat, but which is often a massive pain) and to indicate that these are gargs raised by humans.
So I'm in my office one day, after the script to "Avalon, Part Two" has gone final. And Supervising Producer Frank Paur and Producer/Director Dennis Woodyard come in. Frank hates the script. Dennis is calmer, but he seems to clearly agree with Frank, more or less.
I'm annoyed because it's VERY late in the game for them to be giving me these kind of notes. Things get heated between me and Frank.
I yell something like: "Well, what do you want me to do?!!!"
And he yells something like: "We need some action! Like a fight on the Beach with the Archmage!!"
And I start to object for about a second. Then I go, "Oh, yeah. A fight on the beach with the Archmage. That'd be cool. Would that fix it?"
And that was it. Our fights were always like that. We always only wanted to make it better. He'd get worked up, but the solution wound up being simple and when push came to shove (we never actually pushed and shoved by the way) we agreed on nearly everything.
It was also good to have Dennis' calming influence. Frank and I would go momentarily nutty and Dennis would always maintain.
So anyway, after the fact we added the memorable fight on the beach. Now I can't imagine the episode without it. It forced us to trim down some the Archmages travels (cause we were already long) but it definitely improved the episode.
I think, not sure, but I think I wrote that fight because it came so late in the game. It's also possible, I might have taken it back to Brynne and/or Lydia to write. I really don't remember anymore.
Either way, there are some great lines:
Goliath: "Don't be too insulted!" I love how he goes nuts here. We really get a reminder of his warrior-ness.
Archmage: "Don't crow too loudly, after all, what have you accomplished: you beat up a beach." You beat up a beach. That's one of my favorite lines in the whole series.
Archmage: "At dawn you all will die. Get used to it!"
Tom: "Let's get out of here before the very air attacks us!"
The fight itself is pretty cool too. I like how Bronx and Boudicca immediately team up. I like the symbolic nature of the Archmage growing wings, turning to stone and then shattering. I think that was a board-artist's addition. I don't remember seeing that in the script. (And I'm too lazy to stand up and check right now.)
At the end of the fight, my five year old son Benny asked: "Why can't they glide to the castle?" I had to explain the flight rules.
ANGELA & GABRIEL
Elisa slides up to Goliath: "Angela sort of looks like Demona, except her coloring is different. Exactly whose daughter is she?" Again, I love Salli's reading here. That need to know. The jealousy. The feeling for Goliath -- who dodges the question by saying that all children belong to the clan.
But of course Elisa knows. Knows something that I believe never occured to her before. Sure, she knew that Goliath and Demona had been mates, lovers. But she didn't let her mind traverse to the next logical step. Parents. Together. Goliath and Demona.
And of course, the audience knows it too, I hope. It was never meant to be a secret to anyone but Angela who her biological parents are. These lines also served to point that out.
On the other hand, we didn't make a big deal of Gabe's bio-parentage. But I wanted it to be semi-clear that his folks were Othello and Desdemona (Coldstone and Coldfire). Anyone get that at first viewing?
Everyone returns to Oberon's Palace. There are many injured and Gabe is apologetic. As Leader, he feels responsible. But there was 'never any need to hone our combat skills' before this.
Tom & Katharine are reunited. Elisa, the cop, picks up on the human dynamics, the relationships, immediately. She sees the Magus' reaction to their reunion.
I also really like the exchange between the Princess and Goliath.
K: "This is more than I could have hoped for."
G: "What you've done for the eggs is more than I could have dreamed of"
We kept dropping hints. He's mentioned by the Magus, but the conversation moves quickly on.
Later, the Weird Sisters mentioned him. The Archmage is surprised to hear he's not a myth, causing Seline to say her famous: "All things are true." line. The Archmages promise to kill the king later.
And Elisa brings the guy up at the end. This policy was me trying to play fair and make his awakening in Part Three not seem artificial. But also not to allow the guy to distract from the matter at hand.
Of course, most of THIS crowd must have known the s-king was a ref to KING ARTHUR. Particularly when the Hollow Hill ref was thrown in too. But did anyone not know on first viewing?
This was an episode for tying up Loose Ends in a big way. Solving some mysteries.
Why did the Weird Sisters do what they did? (At least objectively.)
Why were Demona and Macbeth working together in "High Noon"? (Elisa: "They hate each other." Guardian: "I saw no sign of that.")
And how did the Archmage survive?
Tom unwittingly hints at the truth when he says that the Archmage seemed to be able to be in two places at once.
Now let's reveal...
Wow! Did we get negative feedback from fans when we played the Sisters as villains here. Of course, I always had it in my head that the Sisters had three aspects. Grace, Vengeance and Fate. Sometimes one aspect is ascendent, but there is always a touch of all three in anything they do. But after the Sisters' Fateful appearances in "City of Stone", many fans rebelled at the notion that the objective reason they did all those things was for simple petty vengeance here in "Avalon". Oh, well.
[When Benny saw the Sisters for the first time, he said "Weird Sisters" with an interesting tone of awe. They're his favorites. But he didn't comment on them being bad guys here.]
The sisters have some nice lines...
L: "What is time to an immortal."
Phoebe: "This is true." (in ref to what cannot be broken can be bent).
Okay, this was just fun for me. In many ways the origin of much of this was the flat out talent of David Warner. He brought such life to the underwritten (and clichéd) part of the Archmage in "Long Way to Morning" that I just knew I'd have to bring him back. Many of the events of "Vows", "City of Stone", "High Noon" etc. were all geared toward bringing him back as a real THREAT!!
Yet with all this, I didn't want to forget the character's roots. We tried to set a balance between his clichés and his new power.
Think about it. The Archmage+ (as we called him in the script), had only been plussed for about a day. Still he's full of arrogance. His power hasn't raised him above that hybris nor above the thirst for vengeance nor above gloating or above impatience. That's his flaw, but also the fun, I think.
And of course, David. Wow.
Praise for Salli Richardson as Elisa. For Kath Soucie as Princess Katharine and all three Weird Sisters. For Frank Welker as Bronx and Boudicca.
But this Archmage stuff here is a tour de force, I think. David just went through, playing both characters. Both versions of himself. Keep in mind, he hadn't been privy to all that the writers had planned. He had come in for his small parts in both "Long Way" and "Vows". Now suddenly, he's this guy(s). Amazing.
"Do you know what to do?"
"I should. I watched you do it."
"Show some dignity."
"I could put you back where I found you."
"No, no." (I love that no, no. So tiny and fearful.)
"Not where. When."
"If you don't know, don't guess."
"The book must remain in play."
"Try to keep up."
"We're not doing her any favors."
"The rules that cannot be broken can surely be bent."
"Nine hundred and seventy-five YEARS??!!"
"I hadn't thought that far in advance."
"What am I supposed to do, eat it?!"
"Now I understand."
"As it did. As it must. As it always will!"
All great fun.
All these episodes were being produced simultaneously. All in various stages of production. So inconsistencies were bound to happen.
The Egg boats are messed up here. Demona's model in her flashback. Etc.
And storywise, what's the deal with Macbeth? I can see why the Archmage wants to include his former apprentice Demona in his plans. He felt betrayed by her, and is glad not to be doing her any favors by enslaving her.
Okay, it's not a true flaw. Macbeth is included because the 'plan of the Archmage' -- birthed whole from the timestream without the Archmage ever actually coming up with it independently (though he takes credit) -- included Macbeth.
It is the provence of Luna, not Seline, at work.
But still, I'd have liked to have been able to figure out some connection between the Archmage and Macbeth so that he wouldn't question the boy's inclusion. Thankfully, the Archmage+ is so arrogant, he takes credit and thus never questions. It occurs to me now, that I could have made a connection between Mac and his ancestors, all related to Katharine and Malcolm. Oh, well.
These became fun for me. Adding Captions indicating place and time is one of the very last steps in production. So I'm in there for the "On-Line" with Jeff Arthur, our post-production supervisor, and I'm just indulging...
Sure we start with...
"Scotland, 984 A.D."
But pretty soon we're at "YESTERDAY" and "SIX HOURS AGO" and "ONE MINUTE AGO" and finally "NOW".
It still makes me smile.
So the Archmage gets the eye. Power. But he's still an idiot. He needs wisdom. He eats the book, which I always thought was really creepy and cool. Now he understands. Now we truly have two Archmage+es. But they can't coexist forever. Aside from how complicated that would be to choreograph, and aside from the fact that the timestream needs the younger of the two to fulfill his role....
They also couldn't coexist because both are too arrogant.
So we repeat the scene of departure to close the circle and tack on: "Finally. I thought he'd never leave."
We get to see a new clan awake from stone. I hoped that was fun.
Ophelia appears (pre-injury). She looked way cool. For all those people who thought that Gabe and Angie were a couple, take a look at the way Gabe is holding Ophelia and looking at her after she's injured.
In addition to the Sleeping King, we were also laying pipe for our whole fourth tier WORLD TOUR. Tom says: "Avalon dropped me in your laps." He credits Avalon with sending him to Goliath.
The Magus declares that he is without magic and useless. Katharine rebels at that: "Don't say it, and don't think it!" She loves him. Just not the way he wanted her to love him.
Bronx and Boudicca want to go with Goliath.
Elisa asks about the Sleeping King...
And Goliath, Angela and Gabriel take off on a stealth attack.
And we immediately see that the Archmage knows they're coming.
As the Archmage says... "[We've layed all the damn pipe we could possibly need and more], Now the fun really begins!"
To be concluded...
And that's my ramble. Where's yours?
The posting of the FAQ (thanks, Bishansky and JEB!) and your comments on them (including the "Weird Macbeth" part) prompted a question about this unmade two-parter from me.
We know that you had planned the following casting choices for this episode:
Macbeth as himself (or, more accurately, as his Shakespearean counterpart).
Demona as Lady Macbeth (the role that she was hatched to play :)
Goliath as Macduff
Elisa as Lady Macduff
Do you remember any of the other casting decisions for this story (i.e., who was to play Duncan, Malcolm, Banquo, Fleance, the Porter, etc.)?
Hudson was Duncan, I believe.
The rest I don't remember off-hand, largely because I don't think I had done much casting. It never got past the premise stage, unfortunately. It was the one story that I wanted to do that upper-management wouldn't approve. Even then, they were willing to approve it for a single episode. But I felt I couldn't do it justice in 22 minutes. So in essence, I'm the one who kiboshed it.
That really says something about the creative freedom we were given on the show. 66 episodes. And only one semi-rejected premise.
Did Macbeth fight in any of the world wars? If so which side?
Yes, Macbeth has fought in many wars.
And certainly in WWII he was with the allies.
How many identities does MacBeth have in 1996? Is he really a professor?
By 2198 does everyone know that he the Scottish king that Shakespeare wrote about?
At least two that he keeps active.
He's a medievalist. Doesn't mean he teaches.
Where is MacBeth in 2198?
Ok, I checked the archives and couldn't find anything about my 3 questions:
1.) Where does Macbeth get his money? He has advanced weapons, a really snazzy hovercraft, a castle in or near Manhattan that burned down only to be built again, and add to the mix the fact that he goes around hiring mercenaries, installing massive guns for security systems... So where is he getting this cash. A millenia would drain any fortune he may have. Establishing a trust would be tough because he may be in trouble with social security. So where does his money come from? Antique sales? You already said he isn't willing to part with many of his valuable things. Mabye he's a really good writer and has a book deal, or mabye he's just been getting a LOT of social security. Which is it?
2.) How does Macbeth hide his identity for so long? The amount of money he has is bound to attract attention.
You checked the Macbeth archive and didn't get an answer to this question? Check again.
The short answer is if you buy land when it's cheap, later it will be worth a fortune. If you have equity, most things of any worth go up in value. And even things of little worth become valuable if they are old enough. And he has a lot of old things. He doesn't necessarily even have to sell much. He has equity.
He's also smart and tough. He can live on very little if he needs to. Etc.
2. He's smart enough to 'die' periodically and leave his wealth to a new identity.
1) Do the Canmore siblings (The Hunters) know about Macbeth (What, with his still being alive and all)?
2) Have they ever tried to hunt him?
3) Does Macbeth have any descendants living by 1996?
4) Do the Canmores (at least the ones descended from Jon) still hunt Demona in 2198?
1. Not saying.
2. Not saying.
3. Not saying.
4. There are no more Canmores, at least not of that line. But the Castaways still hunt her. Her and all gargoyles through the Quarrymen.
1) Why does McBeth's stone dungen floor burn so easily? I've never seen Stone burn so well.
2) Did McBeth loose much of importance in the fire, I'd imagin there would be a lot of old magic relics, and the like. b) Did the fire burn Everything he owned? c) Did he build his new house on the ruins of his old one? d)Do you now the history of his old house, is it relivant and will you tell us?
3) Why didn't Owen call Bruno's group, or summon the steel clan, or do something more, when Hudson and Broadway took the Grimorum?
5) Did Mcbeth put Bronx in a seprate cage on purpose cause he thought they would figue out how to get him out? Was he testing them?
6) What did Macbeth tell Xanatos he planed to do with the Gargoyles? b) What did he plan to do with them once he had found their "queen"? c)Did Demona tell Macbeth about Goliath and the spell on him? And then he figured out where she was in NY when the castle was brought there, and know she must be behind it?
6) I just want to be sure this is correct. Lex and Brooklyn didn't think Bronx was strong enough to break open their cage, and Bronx only did it the second time because he had an order from Goliath. Is that all right?
1. And you may never see it again. Consider yourself lucky.
b. No. For starters the fire did not spread to Paris, where he also owns a chateau.
d. Haven't given it one. And it's gone now. The newer one is just a replica.
3. Summon them where?
4. There doesn't seem to be a question four.
5. All went according to plan.
6. He didn't.
b. That would depend on events.
c. Not necessarily.
The second question 6. Bronx had momentum the second time. He could have gathered it the first time, I suppose. But it cost him to break through, so maybe your right. They didn't want to take any chances. Get help while he's free.
This is my first post here, and it's quite lengthy. I've been looking through the archives, and I'm pretty sure this question has never been asked before. But if it has, I honestly don't know what category it would be filed under. It's mainly about who knows what throughout the course of the Gargoyles story.
Nobody in the audience knew anything about Demona and Macbeth's relationship and former lives prior to "City of Stone," but who in the Gargoyles universe, if anyone, knew anything? I've been watching my taped episodes recently and this really stood out at me this time. It's always been the one thing about the show that bothers me.
It really sticks out in "The Price," when Hudson says, "Believe it lads, Macbeth's dead." Later in the episode, Lexington seems genuinely convinced that Macbeth actually is dead, which leads me to believe that he doesn't know about Macbeth's background by that point. However, later in the same episode, Hudson explains to Xanatos, "Demona and Macbeth are immortal. Has it brought them happiness?" Was Hudson simply feeding a line to Lexington? Was Lex not supposed to know about the whole Demona/Macbeth thing? It's wierd, because Elisa also knows about it by the time of "Sanctuary."
That leads me to another question: how does Hudson know? And Goliath for that matter? Who was it that told them about Demona's history? It couldn't have been Xanatos, because he didn't know either until "City of Stone," or he wouldn't have been fooled by Demona's excuse for living so long. I'm actually not too sure Xanatos ever finds out.
I could only think of one way that it could work. Here goes:
In "Temptation," Demona says to Brooklyn, "It's a long story, centuries long." I was thinking that Demona may have told her story to Brooklyn at that point, and that he later told Goliath, who told Hudson and Elisa. In that case, was this privelidged information that Goliath only trusted Elisa, Hudson, and Brooklyn with? This would explain Hudson's behavior in "The Edge," and give Brooklyn a shoe-in for Second in command, but it would not explain Brooklyn's puzzlement about Macbeth's identity in "Enter Macbeth," unless Goliath had told him not to tell Lex and Broadway. However, Goliath clearly has no clue who Macbeth is at that point. Could Brooklyn have told him later? Lex clearly knows about Demona's immortality by the time "Hunter's Moon" rolls around, so I was thinking that Brooklyn may have decided that it was necessary to tell Broadway and Lex everything when he was leader.
I don't think Macbeth would have told Broadway his story in "A Lighthouse in the Sea of Time," when Broadway was tied up in his jet or at his mansion; the timing seemed all wrong.
So I guess what my question boils down to is this:
When did the clan first learn about Demona's past, and her relationship with Macbeth, and am I on the right track with the whole Brooklyn idea?
By the way, Gargoyles is my favorite show. It still amazes me how you were able to weave such an intricate story about such real characters, and teach real life lessons about vengeance, tolerance, family, reconciliation, and so much more, all within the confines of a childrens' cartoon. This was truly a story that made full use of its own medium, and made strong points about life. I believe that Gargoyles is probably the most beneficial and educational childrens' programming I have ever seen, in terms of teaching life lessons, and I too am completely disgusted that Toon Disney won't air "Deadly Force." Thank you for reading this long ramble of mine, and also for providing the best television program to date.
I definitely have gone through this before. So it's somewhere in the archives. Like in the Macbeth archive or Demona most likely. I'm afraid you're on the wrong track, mostly because you are taking the word "Immortality" too literally. It's used in different ways in different places.
1. In "The Price", Hudson does know that Macbeth and Demona have been alive a LONG time. That makes them Immortal on at least one level. When he says immortal in this one, he's only referring to their obviously long life spans. But at this time, he doesn't know about their link, their inability to die unless one kills the other. The fact that they've lived that long might only mean that they've never been killed and have some kind of eternal youth spell or something. So Hudson can believe that Macbeth has FINALLY died when the first robot bites the dust.
2. After the Weird Sisters are captured in "Avalon, Part Three", they are (off-screen) forced to reveal the link between Demona and Macbeth, i.e the terms of their immortality. So at that point, a bunch of people know the truth, particularly Goliath, Elisa and Angela.
3. So by "Sanctuary", Elisa knows. And clearly, Demona has also told Thailog.
4. When Goliath, Elisa, Bronx and Angela return to NYC in "The Gathering, Part One" and after they have time to sit down and relate their adventures (between "The Gathering, Part Two" and "Vendettas"), they relate the Demona/Macbeth story to Hudson and the Trio. So now most of the cast is up to speed.
We know by City of Stone part 4, that MacBeth's son Luach is dead, probably even killed by Canmore himself. My question is even though there were circumstances that made them enemies, they were still very good friends when they were young, didn't that make Canmore at least think about not killing his cousin?
They were very good friends when they were young? That's news to me. Did you see how they looked at each other after the Weird Sisters issued their prophesy?
And while they were still young, Luach's dad killed Canmore's. That probably didn't endear the cousins either.
I think you are reading too much into the fact that on one hike, they were having a good time until things got serious.
1) Do the Canmore siblings (The Hunters) know about Macbeth (What, with his still being alive and all)?
2) Have they, or any other Canmores, ever tried to hunt him?
3) Does Macbeth have any descendants living by 1996?
4) Do the Canmores (at least the ones descended from Jon) still hunt Demona in 2198?
1. Not saying.
2. Not saying.
When Dominique was pretending to love Macbeth, was there any instant that she got hurt in his presence (stubed her toe or something)? Also, is it JUST pain that Demona and Macbeth both feel? Or can one feel the other touching his\her skin? How bout plessure? If Ms. Destine was to go as far as to bed with Macbeth (though I doubt that would happen), would that be VERY INTERESTING for Macbeth? I tend to think like this a lot.
Simple touching doesn't pass from one to the other. Intense feelings of pain and pleasure would.
And no, obviously Dominique was careful not to be in range when she was transforming. And she didn't slip up either.
In the old ask Greg, you told someone to repost a queston (what did Demona think of the play, Macbeth?) latter, after you thought about it. Well, I'm asking now.
Also, you said that Macbeth was highly amused by the play about him. Were you being sarcastic? I'd imagein that he would OUTRAGED at how William treated him, and his wife and made Duncan and Malcolm the mistreated ones. So was that just a smart ass answer on your part?
) Will there be any romantic feelings between Brooklyn and Demona in GARGOYLES 2198, like the Puck's "Future Tense".
3) Will Macbeth play apart in GARGOYLES 2198? If so, in what way? Now that the revamping is over.
4) How do Demona and Macbeth feel about each other by 2198? Now that the revamping is over.
5) Does Samson know that he is a descend of Demona? If so, does he consider Demona as his great-great (or how ever many greats they are) grand mother?
6) Does Demona know that Samson is a descend of her?
). There'll be feelings. Not saying what kind.
3). You keep repeating "now that the revamping is over". What does that mean to you? Does it have significance? Do you mean now that the contest is over? Anyway, I've answered this. Macbeth will show up eventually but not right away.
4). Now that the revamping is over, I'm not telling.
5) He knows. And to some degree, yes.
A little query that recently occurred to me about the "feeling each other's pain" part of Demona and Macbeth's link. Where does Macbeth feel the pain when Demona receives an injury to her wings or her tail?
Back or butt.
Another one for "Pendragon".... Why does MacBeth show so much contempt for Arther after speaking so grandly of him and Merlin in "lighthouse"? By the end of the episode he sounds more like himself, but durning the race for the sword, I thought he should of treated him as more of a worthey opponent.
I don't hear contempt there. Just competition for a prize that he felt he had as much a right to as Arthur did. I guess it's a matter of interpretation.
Oh my god, I'm not asking a Oberon and Titania question! Its a miracle! :)
I know this has been answered before and I have read your response to the question, but I am a little bit confused still.
You said that any fatal injury Macbeth & Demona sustain, the magical spell that keeps them alive would immediately heal them, and rapidly depending on how serious the fatal injury is.
So, if either were beheaded, would their head fall off and reattach itself or would the spell immediately begin to heal the severed area before it had a chance to fall off?
The same with a severed limb?
Look at what you wrote: "...if either were beheaded, would their head fall off and reattach itself or would the spell immediately begin to heal the severed area before it had a chance to fall off?"
It's a hypothetical. What's the point? Neither one has had their head chopped off. Despite nearly 1000 years of adventuring times the two of them, I will personally guarantee that neither has been beheaded. This isn't Highlander. There's no rule about this. What there is is the statement of the Weird Sisters, who said that neither would die until one kills the other -- when both would die. Whether you choose to believe them or not is up to you.
I haven't said much in a while, but now I have a question:
Since the 2198 contest is over, will you reveal anything pretaining to what happens to MacBeth? I noticed you mentioned Demona to still be around in 2198 so I suppose that MacBeth must be also. Will he be a part of the 2198 spin-off or play a major role? The Pendragon spin-off? Any others?
Macbeth is still alive in 2198. And he will eventually make his presence known. But not right away. I do have big plans for him. But probably not until 2199 at the earliest.
Today no talk, just the question:
In "Sanctuary", Macbeth got a picture of Elisa hanging in his livingroom. Was that a joke by the writers, or have you too not noticed it untill yet?
By the way: do you know, that John Rhys-Davies will play Gimli in the Lord of the Rings movie?
OK, that's all
I knew John was in the movie, not what he was playing.
I have noticed that there is a picture that looks like Elisa. At present I have no explanation for it. It certainly wasn't in the script.
Hee, hee. I just noticed something that I found amusing. Macbeth must have some sort of 'Red-Headed Curse' upon him or something! All the women that affect his life somehow have had red hair. His dear wife Gruoch was the first. And then Demona, whose red hair has virtually become a trademark! His hired mercenary Fleance is a carrot top. And by extension of Demona, his French ex-wife was a redhed too! None of the females in the series with any connection to him don't have red hair. I like it. It's neat. Was it intention, or is it just an amusing fluke? If a fluke, did you ever notice?
I'm color blind.
Does the spell of immortality completely heal Demona and MacBeths injuries. Do bullet or stab wounds heal without a trace or do the leave battle scars. It had occured to me that the spell might not have to heal them to be good as new, just enough to keep them alive. If being "alive" is the minmal requirement. Then the two of the could theoretically go into comas for the rest of eternity and still be considered "alive" for the purposes of the spell. I know, now way you were actually going to do this. Just exorcising a "creativity demon."
Hey, exorcise away.
How would Macbeth react to the Canmore siblings? They are, after all, descendants of his arch-nemeses, and overall the family hasn't proven to be very honorable.
He'd not be fond of them.
why did you and the writers decide not to have Macbeth join Arthur as one of his knights?
Mostly because Macbeth didn't seem to want to join.
But also because I didn't need him there as a regular in Pendragon. Frankly, he and Arthur have too much in common.
Arthur and Griff and later Blanchefleur and Merlin seemed like a good core group to start with.
Macbeth makes for a good guest star.
In your opinion, if Gargoyles ever became a motion picture, out of the well known actors, who do you think might best play Macbeth?
I say Sean Connery. He's got the looks (well use too, stick some hair on his head and he's fine), the accent, and he's played a King and warrior before. :)
We just had this discussion here. Check out the Ask Greg Archives under Macbeth, or Live-Action Movie or Voice Talent.
1) Why did the Weird Sisters spend so much time and effort making Demona and MacBeth their pawns, and keeping them alive for nine-hundred and something years?
2) Why did the Archmage want those two in particular?
They seam pretty powerfull but there have got to be people of equal power in the 20th century (even people who would be willing o go the Avalon)
3) If they had over 900 years, why didn't the Weird Sisters get afew more pawns (would have been a good idea, considering ththier attack on Avalon failed)
1. Partially, because the Archmage asked them to. And for other reasons, I'm not yet revealing.
2. I don't think the Archmage fully knew the answer (or thought to care). Demona, he thought he was punishing for an earlier ("Vows") betrayal. But even that argument is specious. And he didn't know Macbeth from Adam.
3. The Archmage didn't ask for any others. That restricted them, vis-a-vis Oberon's Law.
You know that gargoyles don't age as fast as humans and Demona and MacBeth feel the same things is that whay MacBeth lived for a long time or is it because MacBeth is a king?
They've been cursed, remember?