A Station Eight Fan Web Site
Wow, last time I posted I think it was the Season II: Volume I DVD!! Anyways, I'm afraid I couldn't make it to the Gathering in 2006 . . . but hopefully, by the time you read this, I will have made to to Gatherings 2007 & 2008!!
Anyways, I got Issue 1 of Gargoyles the Comic yesterday (which was also my brother's B-Day, actually!), and boy does it feel good to personally own some new Gargoyles merchandise!! I ran into my local comic book store and immediately saw it on the NEW RELEASES shelf. Boy, that made me feel good!! Spent my 3.50 within five minutes, and I was reading the thing on my way home . . .
Even though "Nightwatch" was merely Part I of "The Journey," I still enjoyed reading every part of it. It was definitely written for newcomers as well as old fans, particularly those two pages of Goliath's monologue to Elisa. Well written indeed!
I loved reading Vinnie's last name (Grigori) and I'm surprised I couldn't remember Castaway calling him that in "The Journey." Anywho, I can't wait till August and October (next release dates, right?) where I hope to see more of Castaway's transformation from Jon Canmore -- that always intrigued me (In the sense how the "Hunter" line continues to exist no matter what).
I've heard some people were disgruntled by the artwork, but I particularly enjoyed it. It wasn't just like Gargoyles of 94-97, but hey it wasn't animated either! It was great, I enjoyed it, and I hope to see more in the future!!
PS - If I had known you visited the AniZona 3 this year, I SO would have visited!!
G2007 & G2008 haven't happened yet. Look how nearly caught up I am!!!!!
Well, we got issue #2 out in December. Look for #3 in February, and #4 in April.
You've said a few times that gargoyles probably don't have hollow bones, on the basis of their strength.. I just wanted to point out that all bones are hollow. Ours are full of marrow, birds' have marrow and also a big chamber for air. Depending where the bone is, it might have blood vessels in it too. I don't think you'd have to sacrifice strength to say gargoyles had hollow bones if you wanted to (or even bones full of lighter-than-air gas. Hey that's a good idea!) I think they're even starting to say some of the strongest dinosaurs had hollow bones too, but don't quote me on that.
Can't wait til the comic's out! I'm buying each one as they come out on Amazon :)
Well, I was I believe specifically responding to someone comparing Garg bones with bird bones (which, as I understand it, are fairly fragile). I know about marrow, etc.
Reading the archives it's apparent you believe Sevarius' theory that gargoyles absorb sunlight during the day while in stone form, reducing their need to eat like the huge beasts they are. I've wanted to point something out for years, but now you have to be really quick about asking questions before Ask Greg closes again.
The thing is.. unless I'm mistaken, Sevarius came into that theory because:
A. he had mutates to make, and gave them bat wings they needed to flap
B. he realized he couldn't keep 6-foot furries in the air on bat wings without them eating him out of house and home, and
C. he figured the answer was in how the real gargoyles did it.
When I heard him explain how he thought gargoyles got the energy to fly, I didn't believe it for a second. obviously he didn't do his homework, because gargoyles DON'T FLY, they don't -flap- at all, they glide effortlessly (more or less) on air currents, and that doesn't require flapping of wing muscles. So.. the sun-absorbing-stone thing isn't necessary (at least for the reason Sevarius presented. Of course now I've read that the reason you had gargoyles glide was so they'd require flying vehicles for kenner to build).
I realize that episode was kind of frought with bad science (electric eels produce electricity, so their genes mean you don't need as much food energy? ... and then whatever extra energy that presents they discharge as lightning bolts anyway?), and that it doesn't matter because it's just an animated drama and you wanted to give the mutates a cool weapon, but.. I dunno, I've been hearing you base your (mostly wonderful) theories on the assumption that sevarius was right, when he got such a major detail wrong in developing it.. it kind of bothers me.. I mean, if gargoyle babies need to absorb sunlight too, their parents should probably stop putting them in caves and buildings... maybe I'm just naturally distrustful of scientists. I mean, when sevarius said "unfortunately nothing like this exists in the animal kingdom so I can't go to the gene store and get some" my first thought was "that's because you pulled that answer out of your ass, gargoyles are more well-thought-out than that". I generally wonder when scientists put out an unprovable theory like that, how plausible they think it is that a person could come up with the correct answer to a mystery like that with limited evidence. No matter what they come up with, it's surely not very likely to be correct!
Wow, when did this comment turn into a ramble? Sorry, heh. Anyway, I trust what you say more than what Anton Sevarius says, and in my opinion you don't have to agree with him just because he's a scientist and you're not. the theories you come up with to explain gargoyle science don't seem to mesh very well with Sevarius, so... perhaps we ought to keep in mind that the gargoyles aren't aware of any of them anyway. Keep up the good work!
Look, Sevarius was intentionally leaving out one major source of information because Derek was his audience. He'd been studying Gargoyle DNA to create Thailog. I'm not endorsing Sevarius' theory because he said it out loud in a room with a "civilian". I'm endorsing aspects of it because the absorbtion of THERMAL energy (not solar energy specifically) through their organic stone makes sense to me. Elegant sense -- at least in my mind.
Another thought about Bonkers...
At one point here, you said
By the way, the Miranda/ Bonkers relationship was a clear precedent for Elisa/Goliath. (Doesn't that seem strange?)
Yes, that seems extremely strange, given some of the more salient aspects of the Elisa/Goliath relationship. Could you elaborate on what you meant? Are you just talking about pairing up a human female lead with a non-human male lead in crime-fighting stories?
Perhaps one day I'll have a bona-fide Gargoyles question to ask here.
Until then, JJ signing off.
P.S. Here's hoping the Gargoyles comics are thriving by the time you read this.
I'm hoping they're thriving too. It's hard for me to tell.
Anyway, yes, that's all I meant. A human female cop fighting crime with an inhuman (but very human) male "partner".
Nothing romantic going on between Bonkers and Miranda. Bonkers only has eyes for Fawn.
When you rambled about "The Gathering, Part I", you mentioned a scene that reminded you of the famous "Tears" scene from Blade Runner.
This reminded me of Bonkers, of all things. In particular, I thought of an episode entitled "Do Toons Dream of Animated Sheep?" or something to that effect, obviously a play on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?, the novel Blade Runner was loosely based upon,
My question is: Was someone thinking of Blade Runner during the creation and/or production of Bonkers? I realize that any link between Bonkers and Blade Runner would be tenuous at best.
However, if I recall correctly, many humans in Bonkers felt uncomfortable actually being around 'toons. Maybe the tenuous link I mentioned is the notion that humans would be afraid of powerful non-humans; in Bonkers' case, toons that can survive terrible explosions and the like. Also, from some of the Piquel episodes, it seems that humans created toons (remembr Piquel's daughter and the magic pencil?). Then, could there also be a "Frankenstein" angle in here, which could add meat to the aforementioned tenuous link?
Still, no-one was "retiring" toons, unless you count Who Framed Roger Rabbit? as part of the Bonkers universe, and think about Judge Doom....
I'm quite sure that no one would have named a Bonker's episode "Do Toons Dream of Animated Sheep?" and NOT be aware of both the movie Blade Runner and the Dick story it was based on.
I thought the DVD was coming out next year! What a pleasure to have found it in the DVD aisle. I loved the extras, get more in the next volume if you can.
Now the question came from something I noticed on the DVD. During the episode Vows, around when Goliath and the two Demonas are using, Demona kicks Goliath and blood comes out of his mouth as he reels back from the hit. I was quite shocked when I saw this, having read about the three moments in the series where you used blood.
Was this blood in there on purpose? Was it put in by the animation staff and S&P just missed it?
I honestly cannot remember. Sorry. It's just been so long...
I've never asked a question here before, probably because I didn't have the patience to wait, but I just wrote this analysis of Demona and Macbeth's link for the GFW website, and I wanted to see what you thought of it. Am I on the right track?
Curses and Prophecies, Fate and Freewill
(Warning: This essay contains minor spoilers for Harry Potter books five and six. It's mostly about Gargoyles, so if you don't read HP you'll still understand this, but if you plan to read them soon, you may wish to stop reading now.)
Like most people reading this, Gargoyles had a major impact on my life. For me, the best it ever got was City of Stone. In fact, I would say that CoS was one of the highlights of my childhood. I still distinctly remember, when I was twelve years old, reaching the end of Part Three, seeing Demona advancing on stone Elisa with a mace, and then the words "To be Concluded." "You're telling me I have to wait a whole day to see what happens? I'm supposed to go to school? Screw that, I want to know how Elisa survives!" I've thought long and hard about CoS, and the key to it is the relationship between Demona and Macbeth. In fact, I think the Weird Sisters' spellcasting is, from a classical sense, the climax of the entire story. On the surface, the spell seems simple enough: Demona and Macbeth are linked so they feel each others' pain, and they will live forever. If someone were to kill one of them, (s)he would die and then quickly come back to life. If one of them were to kill the other, though, then they would both die. As I say, it seems simple. After reading Greg Weisman's numerous responses on the subject, I began to think about whether there was more to it than meets the eye, and it slowly dawned on me that it was much more subtle, deep, and brilliant than I'd ever considered.
For years, Greg has received questions like "What would happen if Macbeth got his head cut off? Would it reattach itself? Would it grow back immediately?" He has always answered something like, "Well, that hasn't happened, has it?" At first glance, that seems like just a weak cop out, with Greg trying to avoid a question he has no good answer to. In fact, he seemed to get pretty flustered at the way people kept projecting Highlander concepts onto Macbeth, which was probably inevitable given that they're both immortal Scottish nobles. Unlike Highlander, though, there are no explicitly stated rules as to how immortality works; all we have to go on are the Weird Sisters' words, and they clearly are not the most trustworthy or forthcoming of people. Remember that Luna is supposedly a representative of fate, and then think about the fact that the spell doesn't really talk about "what if this or that happened," but rather "what will happen." The final words of Luna to Macbeth in the past were that "you both shall live, eternally linked, sharing each other's pain and anguish, with no release until one destroys the other. Only then shall both finally perish together." From that, it's clear that the Sisters are not interested in playing hypotheticals about all the different ways things could happen: they simply pronounced what will happen. Rather than the spell being simply a safeguard against their dying, it could instead be thought of as a prophecy declaring quite simply what will happen to them in the future.
It turns out that at no point in the entire series do we see anything happen to either Demona or Macbeth that would be sure to kill them. In fact, there are only two times it really seems likely that one of them could die. The first is when Macbeth was stabbed in the back by Canmore- painful, to be sure, but not necessarily lethal. Certainly there are those who have survived a poorly aimed stab. The second is when Elisa shot Demona with Macbeth's electric gun. That one seems even less likely, as about three gargoyles get shot with one of those things in any given Macbeth episode. One might make a case that the roller coaster collapse in The Reckoning was potentially lethal, but that falls under the old comicbook rule of "if you don't see the body, the guy's not dead," and the fact that we know Thailog survived as well makes it clear that magic was not necessary to live through that incident. So, we have established that we have never seen anything unquestionably fatal befall Demona or Macbeth. Furthermore, Greg has told us that no such thing has ever happened. Knowing that, it follows that it is meaningless to ask what if such a thing were to happen- it hasn't! Such speculation is what is known logically as a vacuous proof: If A occurs, then B occurs, given that A is an impossible event. Consider the statement "All pink elephants can fly," or, more precisely, "If A is a pink elephant, then A can fly." This statement is absolutely true, since every pink elephant in the world can fly- there are none, so anything you can say about them is true. A simpler way of thinking about it, though less rigorous, is that the statement "all pink elephants can fly" could never be disproved, since to do so one would have to find a pink elephant that could not fly, which can never be done. It is equally true that every pink elephant cannot fly. What this means, then, is there's no point asking "what if Demona or Macbeth were beheaded" if it cannot happen- it's true that if Macbeth were beheaded, he'd die, and it's true that if he were beheaded, he would be revived, and it's true that if he were beheaded, they'd both die, etc. All of those statements are true, because they are all based on an impossible hypothetical.
So let us then accept that neither of them has ever been beheaded. That still doesn't prove that neither of them could ever be beheaded, in which case it would still be relevant to ask what would happen. To answer that, it's worth thinking of the Weird Sisters' pronouncement as a prophecy rather than a spell. Suppose we think of the Macbeth/Demona connection in these terms: The spell allows them long life and they share each others' pain. Since they share pain, if one of them were killed, then the other would die too. Then we see that what Luna meant by saying that they would live on until one destroys the other is not that they are somehow magically protected from injury, but simply that she was predicting what would happen, as an avatar of fate. Such a prophecy brings Harry Potter to mind. When Harry was an infant, a prophecy was made which roughly stated that either he would kill Voldemort or Voldemort would kill him. That prophecy was overheard and found its way back to Voldemort, who immediately acted on it by attempting to kill Harry and fulfill it in a way favorable to him. In so doing, he nearly destroyed himself and gave Harry powers that would enable him to finish Voldemort once and for all. Moreover, he gave Harry a desire to end Voldemort. Harry lost his parents and knew first hand the sort of pain Voldemort inflicted on others, and so he would not rest until Voldemort was finished. On the other hand, Voldemort believed in the prophecy, and thus saw Harry as the greatest danger to him, so he would not rest until Harry was dead. So the result was that the two enemies were both determined to kill each other. As such, it was inevitable that one of them would eventually succeed, and the prophecy would be proven true. However, it was not true because of some incomprehensible hand of fate hovering over them, but rather it was based on simple extrapolations from the subjects' characters, and the fact that they knew about the prophecy (fittingly enough, Rowling has acknowledged Shakespeare's Macbeth as an inspiration for the prophecy).
The same can apply to Demona and Macbeth. At the time of the spell's casting, they were already great warriors, and with unlimited time to practice, they would become even greater. So it is highly unlikely that anyone else would kill them. Yet based on the events of their falling out, an intense hatred blossomed between them, one that would keep them hunting each other and make it inevitable that one would eventually kill the other. And since Macbeth heard the Weird Sisters' pronouncement, he believed that he could not die without killing Demona. It never would have even occurred to him to jump off a tall building and see what happened, because he believed that it would fail. Thus, the prophecy has the added bonus of controlling any possible suicidal tendencies Demona or Macbeth might develop by telling them it's impossible to kill themselves, since while Luna's side of their personality may simply be prophesying, Selene's needs them to survive for their future plans. Plus, even if Macbeth thought it would work, he probably would still feel the need to settle the score with Demona first. With all of that in mind, it is not hard for the avatar of fate to predict that one of them will end up killing the other, and the fact that she makes the prediction helps it to occur.
The question then is this: Is there a difference between saying something cannot happen and saying it will not happen? Suppose a man plans to stay home one day. Can we then say that it is impossible that he will get in his car and drive to another state that day? Let's say it's early in the morning, so he's got plenty of time. He's got a full tank of gas. He's not in Alaska or Hawaii, so there are connecting states he could go to. However, he has no desire at all to do so. Without that desire, it simply will not happen. We can then say that it is impossible. Now the obvious objection is that one never knows for sure what might happen, and if an emergency came up, he might have to leave the state that very day. For that reason, we distinguish between what can happen and what will happen- something can happen if it would happen provided the will to do it existed. If we knew for sure that the man would choose not to leave that day, it would then be fair to say that it was impossible for him to leave. Likewise, if we know with certainty that Demona and Macbeth will not die until one destroys the other, then we can say that it is impossible for anything else to happen.
This theory may seems very complicated at first, but if you take the time to think about it, it makes more sense than most other explanations out there. Rather than rely on vague magic powers and convoluted rules of "what if Demona were smashed in the day?" this theory eliminates all of the guesswork and gives an answer without the ambiguity; one that ultimately is simple and inevitable, yet firmly in the hands of the players. By thinking of Weird Sisters' spell as a prophecy, we can help resolve the fate vs. free will argument. Luna is an embodiment of fate, and so she is able to make predictions in the future, yet they are based simply on reading the characters of the subjects. While the prophecy that Demona and Macbeth will eventually die when one kills the other is a pronouncement of fate, it is only made true because of Demona's lack of trust and irresponsibility and Macbeth's lust for vengeance. The same could be said of the prophecy that Macbeth, Lulach, and Canmore would all become king- it wasn't hard to see that Duncan's paranoia would lead to him moving against Macbeth, a confrontation which would ultimately lead to Macbeth's ascension.
But what if you paint an elephant pink? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)
Otherwise I DO think you're on the right track.
We all know that Golaith isn't stupid. But he is a bit naive (Sp?). So, after he awoke in 1994, we know he frequented the library to read. Now, I know he read stories, but did he study? We saw him reading up on wearwolves (Eye of the beholder), but did he read up on the middle ages? Did he study American (and even world) history?
When Goliath an Co. navigated the globe, Goliath seemed to not know much about each place they visitied, and Elisa knew more (or so it seemed to me, at least).
My question is really this: How much did Goliath study up on the world? Did he read history books, and the like?
Was he like Brooklyn and the trio who wanted to learn as much as they could, or did he take the new world in slowly?
P.S. Love your episode mini rambles on the DVD.
I'd say he read a lot -- when he had time. But there wasn't always a lot of time and there is SO MUCH TO KNOW!
ok have u written any fanfics?(cause im a bit confused in the matter) and if so what are the titles of them and were can i find them?(i have never really found a fanfic i hear people talk about) r u planing to use any fanfics u wrote 4 episodes in future gargoyles seasons(if that ever happens. hopefuly it will) or will u consiter ever useing fanfics from other fans (if u think it will work well in the series that is)?
I guess I have written a couple of fanfics...
You can find one here: http://www.angelfire.com/rings/katsaris/brothers.htm
And the other here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=497
These are both Dark Ages pieces, and I'd incorporate them if and when the time came. Maybe in the comic book. Or rather definitely in the comic book eventually, given enough issues.
(Cough, Cough HACK!!!)
(Sniff) Oh, my head.....I know that I said I was going to do a HUGE ramble on my favorite episodes, but (cough) gosh darn it, I got pneumonia and have been in and out of the ER lately. :( I sad.
So, since this is the last day in Jan. and your closing down the asking part of the site, I decided to post one...last.....post for now. (Cough)
Greg: "OH, THANK GOD!!!"
Have you ever been to the Utah Shakespearean Festival Greg? Its very good, heck it's a Tony Award-Winning program! They do tones of great shows, some of them even out doors on their....well out door stage. This year, they are doing:
The Merry Wives of Windsor
Antony and Cleopatra
From June 22 to September 22 this year! (Plus more but Im not typing it...im tired.)
For more info on the Festival: please go to www.bard.com for tons of info and stuff!!! Its COOL!!! I go almost every year. (its a little easier for me because I live in Utah, and I LOVE da mountains!! Born and raised here baby!!)
I have a website that you might like, its www.lost-civilizations.net. Its got info on the Easter Island heads, Atlantis and much more! Since you like that sort of stuff, Im sure you'll like it.
Well, good by America and all the ships at sea. (Mwah-ha-ha.....COUGH, COUGH, COUGH!!!)
I've had pneumonia myself. I'm hoping you're fine by now. But I do sympathise. It sucks.
I have twice been to the Utah Festival. Once with my wife. Once with my brother. Had a great time both times. Would love to go again, but haven't been able to manage it.
TOP 40 CHARACTER LIST:
Once AGAIN, I'm wasting my semi-valuable time (and hopefully yours) to bring you the FINAL update in my attempt to catalogue the most significant characters in the BUFFYVERSE. Previous CUMULATIVE updates covered the first, second and third years of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. After that, the task became more complicated as Buffy's fourth season aired simultaneously (day and date, literally) with the first season of Angel. So the Year Four update included Buffy S4 & Angel S1. Year Five added in Buffy S5 & Angel S2. Year Six, Buffy S6 & Angel S3. Year Seven brought in Buffy's final season S7 & Angel S4. And now, at last, the final season of Angel, S5, which is also (unfortunately) the final season of the televised Buffyverse.
As you may recall, I've tried to inform this subjective task with an objective formula. Still, I won't deny that subjectives have played a role. It's hard not to take extra notice of a character, whom you know is going to be important later. And numerical ties were broken based entirely on subjective criteria.
The idea behind a cumulative tally is to mimic the original experience of following the Buffyverse. It's a horse race. Some of the winners and losers are decidedly predictable. Others are a bit surprising - surprising enough that it's become absolutely clear that my system is flawed. I've since dreamed up a new system, but it's too late to implement it. Someday, LONG after I've finished this first survey (but ONLY if I prove truly insane), I might just start over and see what the results are with OBJECTIVE SYSTEM 2.0. But for now - assuming you haven't nodded off - you're stuck with System One.
I have a list of ALL the characters that have appeared in both series up to this point. It's so long (including everything from leads to ridiculously minor characters) that I haven't even bothered to count how many there are. But my list of MOST significant tops out at 273 characters.
But I think listing the top 40 is both pleasantly traditional… and plenty. Or largely. I just want to note a few characters introduced (or revisited) in this set of episodes, who will never make the top 40, but whom I believe are memorable enough to merit honorable mention.
#272, 273 - Zach & Trish. The wife and son that Lindsey (and later Gunn) lived with while under a spell in a Wolfram & Hart prison Hell Dimension.
#261 - Blue Fairy. She only appeared in Angel's hallucination, but, hey, Blue Fairy makes Spike a real boy. Gotta love it.
#258 - The Immortal. Buffy's new (never truly seen) boyfriend in Rome. Gotta say, I HATE THE GUY easily as much as Angel and Spike do. That's impressive for a guy I never met.
#222 - Initiative Founder - In the WWII episode, the Initiative is ret-conned in… nicely.
#221 - Hamburger Loa. The fast food mascot CGI statue that Wesley consulted in a previous season that totally steered him the wrong way about Angel and the baby Connor makes a last flashback appearance here, which raises his significance enough to make the list. BUT… he represents a flaw, I think. The Loa seems to have lied to Wes in hindsight. WHY? Was he working for Jasmine?
#220 - Ilona Costa-Bianchi. Head of the Roman branch of W&H.
#214 - Matthias Bavane, the Reaper. The ghost haunting W&H, keeping it evil.
#210 - Rutherford Sirk. Wesley's last season introductory guide to W&H. This year he took Wesley's place for an episode (while Wesley was recovering from NOT killing his father) - but Sirk was secretly working for Lindsey.
#207 - Lawson - The only vampire that Angel ever sired AFTER he got his soul back. The guy had a bit of soul, and it tormented him. A neat idea.
#188 - Lawyer #1. Recurring comic relief Wolfram&Hart lawyer.
#178 - Leader of the Fell Brethren. Funny, evil demon cult leader and member of the Circle of the Black Thorn (was that the name?), who really was gaga over this baby he had purchased.
#173 - The Wrath. The demon/executioner that ripped Lindsey and later Gunn's heart out daily.
#161 - Numero Cinco. Retired luchador, bitter ex-hero and mailboy.
#160 - The Roger Wyndom-Price Robot. Wesley's dad, only not. Not sure why they didn't just make it Wes' dad.
#159 - Izzirial, or Izzy for short. Clichéd looking devil and member of the Circle. Also played racket ball with Angel.
#154 - Peepee Demon. Demon servant that Angel poisoned to kill Archduke Sebasis (because Sebasis fed off the servant's blood).
#138 - Senator Helen Brucker. Demon posing as a Senator with Vampire campaign workers. Member of the Circle. Just wish it had been someone (ANYONE) we had met before on Buffy or Angel.
#130 - Drogen the Keeper. The Batttlebrand. Angel's mystically honest buddy and sacrifical lamb. The friend he kills to get into the Circle.
#97 - Archduke Sebasis. Another nasty member of the Circle. The shame of Angel's ending with little warning for the creative staff - and the only real disappointment for me (beyond the fact that I'd be Whedon TV free without the series) - was that the Circle was made up of villains who were either largely unestablished or shoe-horned in at the last minute. Sebasis at least spanned the season, but I do wish they had culled the eleven (combined) years of Buffy and Angel to find more significant and memorable baddies to be part of the Circle. Of course, all the BIG BADS were dead, and most of the little bads too. But what about, say, D'Hoffryn? Hell, I'd have settled for Dracula even.
#95 - Nina Ashe. Angel's werewolf girlfriend. I liked her. I liked the idea that Angel could love someone without being in love. Take comfort. Sex without that perfect happy Angelus-inducing perfect moment.
#94 - Dr. Sparrow. The guy who made Gunn a lawyer… and kept him a lawyer (and Gilbert & Sullivan expert) at the expense of Fred's life.
#89- Cyvus Vale. Played by the always amazing Dennis Christopher, he was a wizard, who gave Connor his rebooted new life. Also a member of the Circle, who kills Wes before being killed by Illyria.
#57- Marcus Hamilton. After Eve betrays everyone (including W&H) to help Lindsey, Hamilton takes over as the new liason to the Senior Partners. Get's busted by Angel in the end.
#45- Eve. I was almost rooting for Eve to make the Top 40. She was a really fun character. The liason to the Senior Partners for Angel. Lindsey's main squeeze. She even slept with Angel and shrugged it off.
And before we start, a fond Top 40 farewell to Graham Miller (now at 42). Well, not really. I'm glad he fell out of the 40. It's shocking to me he lasted as long as he did.
AND NOW THE TOP 40
Abbreviations for previous rankings…
Y1 - Buffy Season 1.
Y2 - Buffy Season 2.
Y3 - Buffy Season 3.
Y4 - Buffy Season 4/Angel Season 1.
Y5 - Buffy Season 5/Angel Season 2.
Y6 - Buffy Season 6/Angel Season 3.
Y7 - Buffy Season 7/Angel Season 4
NR - Not Ranked that year.
#40 - Glory. Y7: 39. Y6: 34. Y5: 30. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Year Five's big bad drops one more ranking but holds on to the Top 40, something that neither Adam nor the Master managed. (And Jasmine never cracked the Top 40.) It feels like Big Bads deserve to be here. But again, a system skewed toward screen time is gonna favor supporting characters over villains. But I'm still glad Glory hangs on.
#39 - Kennedy. Y7: 38. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Kennedy, potential Slayer, eventual Co-Slayer and Willow's new main squeeze - or I should say squeezer - only drops one ranking. Of course, Kennedy is no Tara, but I think that was the point.
#38 - Maggie Walsh. Y7: 37. Y6: 31. Y5: 27. Y4: 18. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Maggie Walsh? Adam doesn't make it, but his creator Maggie hangs on, though she's dropped 1 last slot.
#37 - Illyria. Y7: NR. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Illyria (named after a PLACE in TWELFTH NIGHT) enters the countdown at #37 with a bullet in less than half a season. Fred's transformation into what I thought for a second was going to be yet another Big Bad created from the Regular Cast, wound up being one of the most brilliant and affecting moment in eight years of watching the Buffyverse. WOW!!
#36 - Mayor Richard Wilkins III. Y7: 36. Y6: 33. Y5: 29. Y4: 19. Y3: 14. Y2: 40. Y1: NR. The Mayor maintains at 36. Gotta love the Mayor.
#35 - Ben. Y7: 35. Y6: 30. Y5: 26. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Glory's alter ego holds his position. Again, like Maggie being ahead of Adam, there's really something wrong with Ben being ahead of Glory. My system was too much about screen time, not actual character significance or OOMPH.
#34 - Jenny Calendar. Y7: 34. Y6: 29. Y5: 25. Y4: 17. Y3: 13. Y2: 11. Y1: 15. Jenny also holds position. (Not a lot of movement possible in the Top 40 in a final season. Not enough episodes for a new character to pass some of the old faithful.) Says something about Jenny's original significance that a non-regular like her is holding on for so long. And of course she was pretty much the first character we ever saw as the First, way back in Y3.
#33 - The First. Y7: 32. Y6: 143. Y5: 120. Y4: 85. Y3: 52. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. The original evil drops one ranking. I was never satisfied with the First, especially in the Season Finale, but I can't deny that he/she/it belongs in the Top 40.
#32 - Warren Meers. Y7: 31. Y6: 36. Y5: 82. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Warren, the most evil of the nerves, also falls one ranking.
#31 - Kate Lockley. Y7: 30. Y6: 27. Y5: 22. Y4: 23. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Angel's cop friend is gone and largely forgotten now… She falls one more ranking.
#30 - Daniel Holtz. Y7: 28. Y6: 25. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Captain Holtz, Angel's Century spanning arch-nemesis falls 2 rankings. His influence still very much felt.
#29 - Francis Doyle. Y7: 27. Y6: 23. Y5: 20. Y4: 15. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Doyle falls two ranks. He has an important video-taped cameo in Cordelia's final episode. Something pulled right from Season One. It was lovely.
#28 - Principal Robin Wood. Y7: 26. Y6: NR. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Robin Wood, son of Slayer and Spike-victim, Nikki Wood, falls two rankings. This is a character that I would have LOVED to have seen a spin-off built around. D.B. Woodside is great; Wood has no super-powers, just training. And I would like to know who Robin's dad was and what happened to him. And the fact that a Slayer could survive long enough to have a kid… Loved this idea.
#27 - Lindsey McDonald. Y7: 29. Y6: 26. Y5: 21. Y4: 29. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lindsey makes an impressive comeback, jumping up two rankings. (Never completely understood why he STILL hates Angel so much.) Has a non-good death, which was very cool.
#26 - Jonathan Levinson. Y7: 25. Y6: 24. Y5: 33. Y4: 24. Y3: 17. Y2: 19. Y1: NR. Jonathan, another dead geek - but a beloved one - drops one ranking.
#25 - Principal Snyder. Y7: 23. Y6: 21. Y5: 18. Y4: 12. Y3: 9. Y2: 10. Y1: 12. Snyder falls two more rank, but holds on. Clichés, even fun ones, rule.
#24 - Andrew Wells. Y7: 24. Y6: 37. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Andrew, back with a couple of memorable Scooby Gang-Representing appearances, holds on to the #24 slot.
#23 - Darla. Y7: 21. Y6: 18. Y5: 19. Y4: 28. Y3: 23. Y2: 23. Y1: 11. Darla loses two rankings w/only a brief flashback appearance in this season. Love Darla.
#22 - Drusilla. Y7: 22. Y6: 19. Y5: 16. Y4: 16. Y3: 11. Y2: 8. Dru has a couple nice flashbacks and once again leapfrogs over Darla simply by maintaining her #22 ranking,.
#21 - Lilah Morgan. Y7: 20. Y6: 22. Y5: 31. Y4: 31. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Geez, you're dead for a year, and you drop out of the Top 20. Lilah falls one position.
#20 - Harmony Kendall. Y7: 33. Y6: 28. Y5: 23. Y4: 25. Y3: 20. Y2: 26. Y1: 18. Harmony, who becomes a regular (finally) halfway through the season, jumps up ELEVEN ranks to crack the Top 20 for the first time since Season Three of Buffy. Always nice to see a character who stayed in the hunt for ALL eight years of the Buffyverse.
#19 - Faith. Y7: 19. Y6: 20. Y5: 17. Y4: 13. Y3: 10. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Faith maintains her position.
#18 - Connor. Y7: 18. Y6: 41. Y5: NR. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. So does Connor, who is SO much more fun to hang with this season in two great appearances.
#17 - Riley Finn. Y7: 17. Y6: 15. Y5: 12. Y4: 11. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Riley maintains.
#16 - Tara Maclay. Y7: 16. Y6: 13. Y5: 15. Y4: 20. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Tara maintains.
#15 - Joyce Summers. Y7: 14. Y6: 14. Y5: 11. Y4: 9. Y3: 8. Y2: 7. Y1: 7. Joyce falls one ranking to her lowest slot ever.
#14 - Daniel "Oz" Osbourne. Y7: 13. Y6: 12. Y5: 9. Y4: 7. Y3: 7. Y2: 12. Y1: NR. Oz falls one more ranking to his lowest point yet.
#13 - Lorne. Y7: 15. Y6: 17. Y5: 24. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Lorne jumps another couple rankings in a brutal season for his character… probably the guy (next to Fred, who dies and becomes someone else) who goes through the biggest emotional change from the start of the season to the end.
#12 - Winifred "Fred" Burkle. Y7: 12. Y6: 16. Y5: 50. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Fred holds her position, despite dying. In fact, if she hadn't died and ceded most (but not all) of her screen time to Illyria, she might have past Dawn.
#11 - Dawn Summers. Y7: 11. Y6: 11. Y5: 14. Y4: NR. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Dawn plateaus at 11. Just had too much padding to fall, despite zero screen time. Again, Fred's death protected her too.
#10 - Anya Kristina Emanuella Jenkins. Y7: 9. Y6: 9. Y5: 10. Y4: 14. Y3: 22. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Anya drops a slot but stays in the Top 10.
#9 - Charles Gunn. Y7: 10. Y6: 10. Y5: 13. Y4: 37. Y3: NR. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. A powerful season arc pulls Gunn up a rung to 9, a personal best.
#8 - Wesley Wyndam-Price. Y7: 8. Y6: 8. Y5: 8. Y4: 10. Y3: 15. Y2: NR. Y1: NR. Wesley plateaus at #8. I know it must seem like everyone would plateau this high up, and from this point on they are…
#7 - Spike. Y7: 7. Y6: 7. Y5: 7. Y4: 8. Y3: 12. Y2: 9. Y1: NR. Spike doesn't quite have the juice to pass Giles.
#6 - Rupert Giles. Y7: 6. Y6: 5. Y5: 3. Y4: 3. Y3: 2. Y2: 2. Y1: 2. Giles maintains.
#5 - Willow Rosenberg. Y7: 5. Y6: 5. Y5: 6. Y4: 6. Y3: 4. Y2: 4. Y1: 4. Willow holds her Top 5 slot, but finishes behind both Cordelia and Xander, which surprises me. As she was a Big Bad. And as she really should be equal with Xander, it demonstrates another significant flaw in the system. But at least she's in the Top Five.
#4 - Cordelia Chase. Y7: 4. Y6: 4. Y5: 5. Y4: 4. Y3: 5. Y2: 5. Y1: 5. Cordy maintains. She has one of the best exit episodes EVER though. Frankly, Angel's last season is FULL of great exits.
#3 - Xander Harris. Y7: 3. Y6: 2. Y5: 2. Y4: 2. Y3: 3. Y2: 3. Y1: 3. Xander stays in the Top 3, which is right where he started eight years earlier. Making him - with the exception of the two series' leads, the MOST important character in the Buffyverse.
#2 - Angel. Y7: 2. Y6: 3. Y5: 4. Y4: 5. Y3: 6. Y2: 6. Y1: 6. Angel maintains. Buffy just was too far ahead for him to catch up, which is probably how it should be. Still, a fantastic last season for Angel.
#1 - Buffy Anne Summers. Y7: 1. Y6: 1. Y5: 1. Y4: 1. Y3: 1. Y2: 1. Y1: 1. Duh. It ain't called the Buffyverse for nothin'.
Oh my god! Thank you very much for answering my questions for Max steel I was 12 years old when I wrote that I went on your site again after a long while and now I'm 15 years old I'm still a fan no matter what. I do honestly miss the show.
Thanks you made my day.
One last question: Is there any dvd or something that cuntains every Max steel episode?
Kassey still our biggest fan Chapleau, Ontario Canada.
Hi Kassey. I'm afraid I'm not aware of any Max DVDs. If there were one of the first season, I'd love to have it too.
what's the name of the gargbeast from the avalon clan? think i confused her name with a another character and i'm wanting to be sure. can you tell me, please?-thanks!
Boudicca. I should point out that you waited nearly a year for this answer, and if you had gone to the Station 8 comment room you could have learned the answer in a matter of minutes.
r u hopeing 2 do audio commentary on season 2 vol. 2 when it comes out? (i love the commentary bye the way!)
I knew that at some point the Trio would fight over Angela, and I was kind of worried about how much dignity they would lose in so doing.
I suppose I was more disappointed with Brooklyn's behavior than with Broadway or Lexington's. After all, he is my favorite character, and I think anyone would find it aggravating to see his or her favorite character behaving like a goofball.
Not to mention the fact that he's Second-in-Command, and therefore should behave responsibly and competently in his office. The first time he splits them up so that he and Angela can be alone...well, if he really tried, I think he could have waffled a decent rationale for that decision. The second time however was just plain silly of him. ONE gargoyle at the Clocktower to wait for Goliath might have been wise, but not two of them.
However, more than all of that, when I first saw this episode, I had seen neither THE CAGE nor KINGDOM, and thus had no idea what had happened with Brooklyn's crush on Maggie. The resulting lack of closure actually made Brooklyn's behavior here seem even more annoying to me (crush or not, I couldn't believe Brooklyn would be as shallow as those "Well, hello...and good-bye!" guys from Saturday Night Live). Seeing the episodes in their proper airing order fixes this, of course--Brooklyn has effectively closed the book on the Maggie possibility, and now here is a REAL female gargoyle to court. HOT DAMN!
All things considered (1,000 years without a date) I suppose it's not unrealistic that each of the Trio would go overboard in trying to impress Angela and outdoing the other two. If only they realized how foolish they were looking instead (though I still love the brief bit of posturing they do in the Clocktower--Broadway actually sucks in his gut!).
The bit with them flying into the water tower (or whatever) was worth a chuckle as well. And "muttonheads?" You just don't hear enough people called that anymore. ;-)
In all of this I haven't said word one about the Brod-Dracon turf war. It is what it is, I suppose, the gangster side of GARGOYLES never particularly interested me.
I was surprised to see Brod reappear. Danforth, too, for that matter. I had figured both of them to be one-shot characters (yes, even at this late date in the series, I expected one-shot characters).
I have to wonder what the Witness Protection Program's reaction(s) will be when they learn what ol' Danforth has been up to. Seeing as how Jack is willing to give up a fairly safe and stable life as "a retired banker who likes to spend his afternoons in a health club" to help Brod beat Tony, he really must HATE the Dracons. I wonder why....
I would have liked to see a conversation or something between Jack and Matt--just a reference back to REVELATIONS or something. I just think it would have been nice.
As for Brod, yes, he is audacious. Not just for breaking into prison, but for trying to restart his criminal empire in New York City of all places. No starting small for this guy--go right for the big time!
I had no clue Salli was Elisa until she took off the wig. At the end of Act 1, I thought Salli was a separate character and saw this episode going off in a whole different direction (I'm not saying what direction exactly since it might break the submission rules).
It's interesting to see how she tries to balance her duty with her act--her attempt to reason Brod out of attacking Dracon is a nice example of this (and it's fun how her arguments are so quickly dismissed).
-Dracon and Glasses have a frank discussion about the turf war (with Dracon yelling at one point) and there's a trio of guards nearby. I always wonder just what they might have overheard (of course, the guards look like they're having their own conversation, so probably not much).
-Brod eats with his mouth full. Well, I guess manners aren't the most important part of being a gangster, anyway.
-The guy who goes crazy in the police station was the mugger Broadway attacked back in DEADLY FORCE. He also appeared in GOLEM as part of Brod's gang, and he even appeared earlier this episode on Brod's hovercraft. That guy gets around, doesn't he?
-For some reason, I love Elisa's reaction to Angela's, "boy trouble." She actually seems kind of amused by it.
-It wasn't until my viewing before this last one that I noticed Elisa looking at the payphone. I thought it was a nice touch and don't know why I missed it before (maybe my attention was focused on Brod).
-Were Dracon's men firing particle beam rifles? They looked and sounded like actual bullets to me. The guns did have stylized designs, I guess. No comment on the "selective penetration" of the guns (i.e. celing, but not seats).
-I love Pal Joey's taunt to Brod on the train top--just something that struck me.
-I'm similarly struck by the calm way Glasses is able to face what could be his own death. He has a lot more composure than Dracon does later on (of course, Glasses has an "out" while Brod stops to think).
-Poor Lexington--Brooklyn and Broadway are both busy helping Angela, so the little guy has to stand up all by himself.
-Interesting thing: Brooklyn says that he's the one who rescued Angela. I paused my tape at the actual rescue (yes, I am that lame) and I clearly see Broadway as the one who grabs Angela. Was this another case of communication breaking down between the writers and animators, or just Brooklyn himself attempting to ret con the last few minutes?
-"STOP CALLING ME ANGIE!" A funny moment, but I must admit I never realized, until you mentioned it, that Broadway did not call her "Angie" at all this episode. He was also the only one that attempted to reassure her when she was worried about Goliath. I guess some of the seeds were already there (just subtle as hell).
-Elisa/Salli: "We can't just break into a maximum security prison."
Brod: "Why not?" He asks this while gesturing to the sizable armory at the rear of his hovercraft. I find it funny. :-)
-"Sergeant, we've got a problem." I love the Tower Guard's reaction to the hover ship. I wonder if that guy got hurt jumping out of his tower like that.
-Brod seals the only entrance to the cellblock. Now, how did he plan on making his getaway? Have his hover ship blast a hole in the roof?
-I may not be a big fan of "Rocky and Bullwinkle," but that "Easy as shooting moose and squirrel" line would have been GREAT. I can grudgingly understand the S&P objections to the "Good thing we weren't facing Queens" line, and I prefer Puck not to break the fourth wall, but THIS line should have been in the show!
-Dracon revealing Elisa's identity strikes me as a "If I'm going down, I'm taking you with me," moment.
-I loved the two different distinctions Brod and Dracon give the gargoyles.
-The penitent Trio apologizes to Angela, and she gives them each a kiss (corny, perhaps, but I think there's some unspoken law that heroines in ensemble action shows have to give a peck on the cheek to all the males interested in them). Of course she also mentions all her sisters, and that makes the Trio even happier.
-Dracon and Brod as cellmates would never be allowed officially, but I could see a couple of mischievous guards engineering a temporary co-habitation. My brother (who saw this with me) was of the opinion that, given their differences in builds, Dracon needed to make the first punch.
All in all, it's not a bad episode, but it's always difficult for me to see Brooklyn embarrass himself like this. Oh, well.
And with that I should be caught up with the Rambles. For now, anyway.
I'm already looking forward to the next one!
"-Interesting thing: Brooklyn says that he's the one who rescued Angela. I paused my tape at the actual rescue (yes, I am that lame) and I clearly see Broadway as the one who grabs Angela. Was this another case of communication breaking down between the writers and animators, or just Brooklyn himself attempting to ret con the last few minutes?"
I'd have to take a look again, but it sounds like the former.
When this ep first aired, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it.
We had Wolf going after Goliath and Hudson along with Hakon-in-an-axe, and some other guy along the fringes as just comedy relief (these are my initial impressions, mind you). Nothing much more than fighting goes on, along with the revelation that Wolf is Hakon's descendent (and I may be alone, but I rather like that connection).
Regardless, the end made me laugh out loud (and I loved the in-joke of Vinnie humming the theme song).
Over time, I've come to view this episode as being perhaps the most problematic of the series...but I enjoy watching it.
I agree with you on the inherent problems of the piece, Greg. The animation was disappointing--the fight scenes were serviceable but not really involving for the most part, and some comedy was nearly lost. It took a couple viewings before I noticed that Goliath elbowed Hudson in the face while preparing to hit Wolf--the hits occur too quickly for the joke to really pay off--and the second time Goliath nearly elbows Hudson doesn't read that way to me (it just seems awkward that second time).
Then there are the missed opportunities. The mace, of course, is the biggest. As nice as the "battle-axe night" line sounds, I'd rather have the mace. Actually, there could still be a fun line put in there, I think. Maybe not "mace night," Todd's right that doesn't have the same ring to it, but Wolf doesn't strike me as picky about specific terms for melee weapons. "Tonight is CLUB night" would have a nice double meaning to it, or "Tonight is WARHAMMER night" (probably please fans of that old pen-and-paper RPG of the same name). Sorry, I digress.
And yes, I would have liked more resonance to Hudson's battle with Hakon. You get a *little* of "Hudson taking revenge" when he gives a little chuckle as he leaves Hakon trapped in the crusher, but I would have liked more. Love the "clan-slaughterer" title, though.
These complaints aside, I rather enjoy the episode. Vinnie actually helps. It's nice to see what happened to a supposedly "random" person due to the gargoyles' actions. I raised an eyebrow at ret conning him into the role of "big nose" on Air Fortress 1, but I was willing to shrug my shoulders and go with it. I had not seen THE CAGE when I first saw VENDETTAS so the bit with Sevarius getting kidnapped left me mystified and frustrated (it did not stop me from thinking Talon was the kidnapper when I finally did see CAGE, he and Goliath have *very* similar silhouettes).
At any rate, I did like the idea of a "regular person" taking on the gargs. Losing his motorcycle and TWO jobs as well--heck, I'D demand satisfaction for that, too! And I believed Mr. Carter was a real gun (loved the Acme reference, BTW--didn't get the "Kotter" reference because that was before my time). Of course, neither Vinnie nor his gun is quite "regular." Vinnie explains himself (justifies himself, I guess) to Mr. Carter, earning stares from people passing him on the street. Vinnie doesn't seem to notice, though. Of course, not paying attention is what gives him such a difficult night to begin with. My favorite is where he tells "Mr. C" about the second job he lost and then turns around the corner and is surprised that the gargs are gone (as though the world stops when he reminisces). I guess this is part of your point on vengeance, Greg; Vinnie is so wrapped up in "creaming" Goliath--"the Big One"--that he doesn't notice imminent hurt/humiliation until it happens.
But he does not give up! When all other foes are defeated, Vinnie is still the last man standing! I'll come back to him before the end.
On to Hakon and Wolf. I didn't immediately cotton to Hakon being the axe. I noticed it laughed in the car and sounded similar to Wolf, but only when Hakon appeared as himself at the end of Act 1 did I realize who it was.
And Hakon has a LOT of powers. I guess it's a combination of being around for 1,000 years in a magical cave, being full of hate, and possessing a blood descendent that allows him to do what he does with Wolf's body. Flight telekinesis, disappearing, illusions (Hudson sees Goliath as Wolf), and the ability to become insubstantial…I wouldn't mind being able to do that! Hakon was right; Wolf was a fool to give up that power before the gargs were defeated. Of course, Wolf's always been a bit bull-headed about doing things his way and being in charge.
I had no problems with Wolf being descended from Hakon. Quite the contrary, I saw a wealth of opportunity in this development. Of course, Wolf and Hakon don't specifically tell anyone but the audience about this connection so I don't know how anything would develop. But the seed's there.
One interesting point that's made about vengeance in this episode: sometimes, the feelings of vengeance are not mutual. Hudson views Hakon as the ultimate evil, but Hudson barely matters to Hakon--the old gargoyle is just another obstacle to get to Goliath. To Wolf, Goliath, the "alpha male" gargoyle, is the ultimate target, but I somehow doubt if Goliath views Wolf that way. He views Wolf as a powerful and tenacious enemy, sure, but I don't think Goliath singles Wolf out from the rest of the Pack as a "prime" foe. As for Goliath and Hakon, yes there is resonance there, and in the past Hakon was definitely a focal point of Goliath's vengeance, but I think after SHADOWS OF THE PAST, Goliath's enmity for Hakon is no longer as strong. Hakon on the other hand, has lost no hatred for Goliath.
And none of them have any clue that Vinnie even exists until he walks right up to Goliath and shoots a pie in G's face.
That last part still puts a smile on my face. I had not expected the pie, but in a way it makes perfect sense. Why would Vinnie want to KILL Goliath? The gargoyles have humiliated Vinnie multiple times, cost him property and two jobs, but he's still alive, in good health, and not TOO badly off if he can afford Mr. Carter. Based on that, a pie in the face seems a reasonable retaliation.
One bit of dialogue I rather like in this episode is this one:
Wolf: "Come on, are you afraid to die like a man?"
Goliath: "What would a mutate werewolf know about being a man?"
That, coupled with the scene of Wolf scrounging for food in a dumpster, show just how far this former TV idol has fallen. And all just to get Goliath.
I find Hakon's "death" an interesting contrast to the Captain's back in SHADOWS OF THE PAST. With the Captain it was a feeling of peace and ascendancy. Hakon's seems more violent (I love the little electric bolt at the end). It makes sense to me.
I hadn't realized this epsiode had a different voice director until I saw the credits. Honestly, there was no decline in quality so far as I could tell. So take a bow, Greg. And if you see Clancy Brown, tell him to take one, too--he differentiated between Wolf and Hakon very well.
So VENDETTAS, while obviously problematic, is still fun for me.
I'm fond of it. That was the first episode I ever voice directed in its entirety. Of course, I chose it on purpose because it had such a small cast of TOTAL PROS, who knew me and would forgive my ... uh... shortcomings. Ed Asner, Jeff Bennett, Clancy Brown, Jim Cummings, Keith David. Couldn't ask for a more solid, talented and UNDERSTANDING cast for my first effort.
THE GATHERING, PART TWO
I'm having a difficult time figuring out where I want to start with this episode.
The revelation of "Owen-is-Puck" is, of course, the high point, but I also find myself thinking about the battle with Oberon.
Oberon is, without a doubt, the most powerful adversary the gargoyles have ever had to face--and this time he's at full power! However, I find his more subtle uses of said power to be the most effective. I mean, he became a giant and while that's definitely threatening and awe-inspiring, it didn't help him much in any practical sense. But when he actually calms down ("Anger...clouds my judgment.") he really does become unstoppable. Even drained and withered, he proves more than a match for our heroes. The thing with the cape absolutely rocked, of course, but my favorite trick is when Goliath leaps at Oberon...and goes right through him (a trick that will be repeated in VENDETTAS). Oberon then hurls Goliath with a gesture (and a pretty cool line, "This altercation is OVER."). Even at the end, Fox's magic blast doesn't stop Oberon by overpowering him (in fact, when he comes flying back in he seems about ready to kick everyone's ass and take names--actually, I find his "I...have had...ENOUGH!" kind of funny as well as foreboding). In the end, Oberon isn't really defeated...he just changes his mind (thanks to said magic outburst and some choice words from Goliath).
One thing I really thought about here was that, despite banishing Puck and giving a rather curt/foreboding farewell, Oberon seems willing to let bygones be bygones. Partially due to your thoughts on Oberon, Greg, I've actually started to see the more magnanimous side of Ol' Blue Skin.
Over the years, I've come to think better of Oberon than I did during the initial airings. Now I think he's pretty cool.
This viewing, during the gargoyles's battle with Oberon, I noticed how quickly Lex and Hudson got taken out. Especially Lex, he didn't get off a single attack. At least Hudson got to whack at Oberon's hair with his sword (for all the good that did).
I can see one of those "cartoon" moments you mentioned, with Oberon swatting at the gargoyles like flies. I actually think it works as a "comic relief" moment before Oberon brings the statues to life.
That "stone figures" bit was actually pretty cool. Unfortunately, I liked the guy with the hammer and he destroys himself to take out Broadway (speaking of which, for Broadway that must have hurt!).
Count me as another who loves Xanatos's weak attempt to cover his saving Broadway.
"It's incredible how often that move works." I LOVE inside jokes like that.
The Iron Clan was a nice variation on the Steel Clan. I mean, we (my brother and I) knew they were bulkier than the SC, but only occasionally did I really notice just how much BIGGER they were (during the chase down the side of the Eyrie Building, you see a now human-sized Oberon go by, followed by the Cybots and a gigantic Iron Clan robot). I'm also absurdly pleased by the "launching points" for the Iron Clan...it makes me wonder how much of the buildings surrounding the Eyrie Xanatos owns or rents.
I loved seeing Renard come to the rescue. Renard sounds stronger here, to me, than he has since OUTFOXED. His words aren't as broken apart as they were even in PART ONE. I like this touch. I'm a little sad that the last we see of Renard in this is "I've failed him." It would have been nice if he were a part of the little "victory celebration" at the end. Heck, it would have been nice if Petros could have been a part of it--and his exit wasn't as dignified as Renard's. Petros just got knocked out and forgotten.
I always figured that while the iron harpoon hurt Oberon, the iron bell would basically rip the very fabric of his being apart. After all, at the right pitch, sound can shatter glass.
And finally we come to the big revelation. Any disappointment I felt at my brother being right was curtailed by my delight at this excellent little twist. And Puck's explanation for playing the straight man made perfect sense to me.
When I first saw Vogel, I thought he was just an in-joke, even after he became a character in his own right. Little did I know you guys had strong reasons for his similarity to Owen.
It still surprises me that Puck actually had his creations rough up Oberon. Dang, but the little guy's ballsy.
I just love "Oberon does not compromise...Oberon COMMANDS!" Mostly, I love it for Terrence Mann's reading of it. It's just...wow.
We all kind of figured that Fox would display some magic at the end. It was practically a given. However, Puck's reaction to it (which you've already quoted) is priceless.
I was a bit surprised when Oberon banished Puck. I have to admit, I hadn't expected that. And I actually kind of felt sorry for the little elf afterwards, but...he did kind of ask for it.
I was surprised and pleased when Xanatos thanked the clan like he did. Of course Goliath (ascribing to the "Fool me once..." school of thought) is suspicious. I like the actual sad look on Xanatos's face when Goliath snubs him. But then Goliath smiles as he talks about "the transforming power of a child's love." Xanatos may have been the "main villain" for the first season and most of the second, but already that title doesn't fit him as well as it once did.
Other little things:
-I love Oberon's exasperated "Now what?" when the Air Fortress shows up.
-I also liked seeing Oberon's giant footprints in the street (who's going to explain THAT?).
-You guys had Petros notice Oberon's "shrinkage." Only after we the audience had seen it happen twice. I like that, although the characters notice something quickly, they don't see it the instant it starts to happen.
-Hudson's "You've had quite an influence." I find Ed Asner's reading of that intriguing. I like it. I can't say why...it just struck me.
-After having been a major part of the World Tour, Bronx just sits this one out. He probably missed his soup bone.
I'll admit, I believed Titania when she indicated things had gone according to her plan. I don't know what she whispered to Fox (and have never asked), but I do start to see Fox smiling before the camera cuts away.
And yes, Greg, this is the first, last, and only time that Broadway calls Angela "Angie."
Okay, I think that covers THE GATHERING. Next...
I'm glad you like Oberon. I like him too. You just have to walk a mile in his shoes to begin to understand him. NOTE: I'm not being an apologist for him or approving of everything he did. But I think it's worth trying to understand him, see things from his PoV.
THE GATHERING, PART ONE
Hey Greg! Good to see you rambling again. I'm going to have to do a little mini-marathon to catch up, so without further ado....
When this episode first aired I had figured that this would be the ep when the Travelers (finally) got back to home base and the rest of the regular cast. I, for one, was looking forward to this, if for no other reason than to see more of my favorite character (Brooklyn).
Seeing the Gathering on Avalon was a nice little "curtain call" for the many supernatural beings the Travelers had encountered on the World Tour. Other than those we had met, Nought definitely had the most striking design (it also helped that he was pretty well featured for a walk-on).
I agree with you about Anubis--he should not be laughing. That part never seemed quite right to me.
It amuses me how, when the Banshee and Odin are fighting, Oberon at first enjoys the action immensely, but as soon as his mirror is nearly damaged he calls an end.
I may be alone in this, but I don't feel too sorry for the Banshee--she was a bit of a pain.
Selene (sp?) is in full fury mode here (I love her eagerness in offering to hunt down Puck).
I also enjoy Princess Katharine's reaction to Oberon contacting her magically.
I've always wondered what Renard thinks of Petros Xanatos. I'd imagine that they might have got along well enough, despite Renard's enmity towards David.
I hadn't figured out Titania and Anastasia were one and the same until Anastasia started talking. Only here did I recognize them as both having the same voice actress and draw the connection.
Of course I didn't get the Owen/Puck connection (or refused to--I'll explain later).
I, too, loved Vogel's reaction to Petros' question about him being related to Owen (an honest question if you ask me).
The child is born. And (for those of us who read the credits of FUTURE TENSE) we already knew his name (and what he'd probably look like all grown up).
Watching the bit with the jogger pouring out his drink after his "hallucination" this last time, I felt myself thinking that, while it's a nice old gag, I'd kind of like to see it with a new twist. For example, instead of pouring out the offending substance, after seeing the supposed hallucination, the subject instead smiles and starts chugging it.
The hypnotized guard is funny. The late Charles Hallahan did a great job with both that and Travis Marshall's snide "...both of them ex-convicts..." line. Great copy and great performance.
The confrontation in the Xanatos' bedroom was very well done. Oberon's reaction to Fox being Titania's daughter is, of course, a high point, but there are smaller things that stand out to me as well. Seeing a young and healthy Renard is a plus, and I love that Fox visibly reacts to seeing Xanatos' gun behind his back (it's small and if your attention is on Xanatos you wouldn't notice it).
As I was watching this time, I thought about Oberon's lines about how Xanatos should take comfort in having "fought admirably for [his] child against impossible odds," and that they have an hour to say good-bye before he takes Alexander away forever because Oberon is "not without a heart." These lines, looking at the words alone, are essentially making things more painful and frustrating for the Xanatos' (insult to injury, as it were), but Oberon does not intend them that way. He's actually being honest, maybe even paying compliment to them, and (in his own mind) is being nice about the whole thing.
In a way it reminds me of Xanatos' line to Derek in THE CAGE--"He's the scientist, you're just the experiment." Xanatos wasn't trying to hurt or insult Derek with that statement, he was just stating the fact of the matter. Similar to Oberon here, the words used by the speaker seem more hurtful than the speaker's intent.
I suppose all this is just a roundabout way of saying Oberon really is Xanatos' comeuppance. :-)
THE TRAVELERS FINALLY COME HOME!!!
Man, I was so happy to have them back on home territory and ready to get back to stories with the rest of the regular cast in their given setting. The World Tour was a nice way to expand and show more gargoyles, but there really is "no place like home."
When Goliath is telling about all the gargoyles around the world he sounds positively giddy. He's even SMILING! Of course he's been smiling since they got back, but here...it's just that seeing Goliath this happy is a bit uncommon.
The Trio of course has their first introduction to Angela...and I kind of suspected this would be the cause of a few waves with them. Three guys and ONE girl…oh, yeah, trouble. The bit with the chocolates is funny, too. And after tasting just ONE chocolate, Angela says, "I think I'm going to like it here." BEHOLD! The power of CHOCOLATE!!
Seeing Goliath and Elisa on her terrace...the first time I watched this, I had already decided that they were going to kiss or something by the end of the season. When G brought E back home, I thought, "This is going to be it!" Then Elisa had to be a party pooper and stop it (and my, wasn't that rain a convenient way of breaking it off).
This latest viewing, I found myself thinking, "...She left her lights on, the electric bill's going to be bad. Wait...how long have they been gone, exactly? It's a miracle she still even HAS her apartment--all the months she wasn't there to pay rent! What, does she pay several months in advance?!" Being a budding actor I have found myself struggling to cover such bills for the past two years, consequently thoughts like that have a tendency to occur to me.
Anastasia/Titania's revelation of herself to the gargoyles was a bit too quick for me, but there's only so much time in the average episode.
I love that the evacuating workers are actually questioning why they're being evacuated (I heard someone mumbling "fire drill"). It's a little detail I like.
The force field surprised me a bit, both because it's something we hadn't really seen before in the series, and because it was actually effective.
I love how Oberon goes from being amused to being pissed off when his magical bolt doesn't break the force field.
Nice effect where his eyes glow green when the lightning flashes.
Seeing Oberon wreak the one car makes me feel sorry for the car's owner (hope the owner's got good insurance). Then he puts everyone in the city to sleep and I start to wonder how many people might die (killed in a car accident, fell asleep while on a ladder or stairs, etc.) because of this. A lot of people are going to be inconvenienced by something they have absolutely no idea about (kind of like Vinnie!).
Oberon's put the city to sleep and both Petros and David Xanatos are in the "war room" with the former asking, "Has the attack begun?" I find that hilarious.
And then Oberon grows up ("Enuk-cha!"). That last shot of his laughing face through the glass of the atrium is great, especially as a cliffhanger.
Here, at the end of my ramble, it's time to talk about Owen. Now, of course he's acting weird but....
Okay, when this ep first aired I watched it with my brother. Now, I was the GARGOYLE nut in my family. My brother and mother thought it was all right and would watch it from time to time, but I was the one who lived, breathed and slept it. So, my bro and I watch this and my bro turns to me and says, "Owen's got to be Puck." And because it was my brother who said this, I disagreed with him. It wasn't that I didn't think it was possible Owen and Puck were the same (in fact, it seemed to me like a distinct and intriguing possibility), but it galled me that my brother (who would NEVER admit to being wrong) would be right about this. The fact that GARGOYLES was MY thing and not his made me more adamant.
Of course, in the end he was actually right...but I can't recall being disappointed about it in this case. It was just too cool of a twist.
On to part two, now....
One has to assume that by "Night of the Panther" at least, Elisa had made some arrangement to deal with bills and etc.
Can you put Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go! on Kids WB?
Cause I don't have cable and if I have one I still can't see the show and I haven't seen that show before if you know what I mean.
I know what you mean, but NO, I do not have the power to put ANY show anywhere. I'm a mere beggar at the feast. And the odds of a Disney show like Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go! winding up on a competitor like Kids WB are pretty high against.
I know this will not reach you for awhile. But I was perusing internet movie database and found an outstanding review of the series I thought and hoped you might enjoy.
This person captures the spirit of the fans in every way, on every level. We have bought the DVS's we WILL buy the comics, and Yes, I believe we will bring this timeless show back.
We cannot do otherwise guys.
I have just one question: How can Disney Television Animation produce such a wonderful show as "Gargoyles" for a couple of seasons and then go back to being Disney Television Animation? I simply cannot understand it, and if anyone has any thoughts, PLEASE share them with me! This show was a breath of fresh air on every level. If this wasn't a groundbreaking show, it certainly raised the bar sky high.
Voices--Many's the time I have thought that they could have chosen a better actor for a part in animation. Not here. The voice cast was so good that to this day I cannot imagine anyone else filling the bill. In the role of Goliath, Keith David demonstrated that he possesses one of the greatest speaking voices of any actor in the business. Jeff Bennett was also great as Brooklyn, my favorite character. (Loved the white hair!)
Music--Carl Johnson's scores were great. They beautifully set the tone and underlined the action and the drama.
Animation--Excellent. Dark, moody and stylish. The shots of the clan as stone statues are downright eerie at times. To this day, I still can't believe Disney did this one.
Plot--Action, drama, technology, mythology, humor and a little Shakespeare on the side. Folks, WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY ASK FOR? This series had the most tightly structured story lines ever--there was not a single moment of dead air anytime.
The best thing about the series, however, was the characters. For being a clan of gargoyles (with a couple of humans), these characters were as real as you and I. Things HAPPENED to them! They actually got HURT as a result of violence. They matured, sometimes in ways unexpected. They found out the hard way who their friends and enemies were. And they had to live with the consequences of their actions, which sometimes came back to haunt them in later episodes.
Here's hoping Disney will realize the error of their ways and bring this show back. If you are already a fan, may you continue to enjoy the show. If you haven't seen it, give it a chance. But be advised: Once you have seen television and the world through the glowing eyes of a gargoyle, you will never want to settle for "standard kiddie fare" ever again.
I hope you enjoyed this Mr. Weisman
Thanks, Justin. It's always nice to read praise. (I'm not shy about admitting that I like the ego-boost.) But I have to say that I don't see or understand the need to praise Gargoyles by BASHING Disney -- in particular the shows which preceded Gargoyles at Walt Disney Television Animation. "The New Adventures of Winnie the Pooh", "Disney's Gummi Bears", "DuckTales", "Darkwing Duck", many episodes of "TaleSpin", "Chip 'N Dale's Rescue Rangers", "Aladdin" and a select few of "Bonkers" and "Goof Troop" strike me as some of the best TV Animation that's EVER been produced. Likewise shows since Gargoyles, like "Kim Possible" and a few episodes of "Hercules" and "Buzz LIghtyear of Star Command" also send me. (And there may be more, but I don't watch cartoons as much now as I did back when I was a Disney Exec.)
Obviously, not all these shows are going to send every Gargoyles fan. And that's fine. But I can't really understand not recognizing how superior they are to most of what's out there.
And remember: NO GUMMI BEARS; NO GARGOYLES.
the mayan's really deal with gay marriges?
Human or gargoyle?
after hunters moon part 3 is there any more reviling eips on goliath's and Elisa's relationship
Read the comic, and you'll see the answer is yep!
is hudson really brodways dad and if so why didn't the put it in the seasons
Hudson is Broadway's biological father and one of many (though the only surviving) rookery fathers.
"put it in the seasons"... I don't know what you mean.
You mean in the series? If so, it's a non-issue to the gargoyle-born. Why would it ever come up?
Thanks for the "Turf" ramble, Greg! Only 6 to go now (though I doubt that you'll be able to do them all before the end of January - pity).
The trio definitely come across in this episode as the gargoyle equivalent of the Three Stooges, especially when they collide with the chimney, and when Brooklyn's shouting "Knock it off, you muttonheads!" Then again, as Elisa points out, what do you expect when they've been without female gargoyle company for a thousand years?
On a side note, I've noticed that practically every discussion among the fandom over which of the trio Angela ought to wind up with made it "Brooklyn vs. Broadway", with Lexington never seriously included in it. Of course, it makes sense now, in light of what we know about him.
I liked a lot of Brod's lines, such as "Chop shop? What is 'chop shop'?" and "This is why I never go in first" (not to mention what you brought up about "That was my favorite restaurant!") There were a lot of fun lines in here from the other crooks, such as Glasses' "Come on down to Dracon's House of Auto Parts. The prices are hot, and so is the merchandise", and Dracon's "What's going on here? I didn't order a break-out!" And finally, the hilarious ending with Brod and Dracon stuck as cellmates (though I doubt that such a thing would happen in real life).
I didn't recognize Elisa with that blonde wig, so it was a big surprise for me when she took it off and revealed who she was. (And naturally, the trio then go about saying that they knew it was her all along.)
Thanks for your comment about the payphone, by the way; I've been wondering for a long time about the significance of that scene where we look at it against the backdrop of the burning restaurant.
And interesting that Brooklyn should be the one asking about a world tour, in view of what we now know is in store for him (cf. "Timedancer"). One more example of "Be careful what you wish for."
Brod was fun to write for. And a lot of the stuff you mentioned in terms of "given what we now know" is stuff that I THEN knew.
How does Oberon maintain his rule over his Children? So far we've seen that many of them have abilities that could probably kill Oberon like Anubis's ability to manipulate life and death and Puck's ability to rewrite reality or is Oberon just much more powerful than the combined might of his children?
Than the COMBINED might... no, I doubt it. But do you really think that THAT group could agree on a replacement?
And to address your specific examples, Oberon is clearly more potent than Puck. Puck can't rewrite reality. He can simply send a false vision. SO not the same thing.
And we've seen how rigid Anubis is with his powers.