Blaise writes...

SHADOWS OF THE PAST

And so the World Tour truly begins.
Right off I'll say I agree that the numerous reruns did little to help the appeal of the "long absence from home." This might have been allieviated a litte if KINGDOM had been able to air when it was intended (it didn't, at least not on my stations, and prolonged the absence of the Trio and Hudson). I also think that AVALON PART THREE might have been a good "chapter break" (for lack of a better term) for reruns until the majority of the WT eps were finished. But then, I'm just a struggling actor, what do I know?
At any rate, I felt it fitting that Wyvern should be the first stop. Visiting the place where everything started, and bringing some closure (at least for Goliath) to an immense part of the clan's history. I love how he says, "It's home! My home." In terms of both dialogue and acting, it's very well done.
I also instantly liked Angela's mention of the weather in Avalon. A very nice bit of fleshing out (both for character and universe) that felt completely natural.
I'll say right now that I love the animation here, too. Granted, about half-way through the first act Angela's eyes seem to change size/shape and it drives me a little nuts, but overall it's just fantastic. I'm glad you and Frank stuck to you guys' guns, Greg, and made sure things like the cliffside and Elisa's wardrobe remained consistant. Shows the dedication.
I always noticed the awkward (sp?) moment between Elisa and Angela when Goliath instantly starts climbing the cliff. I don't think Elisa had been expecting this, but I believe she understands.
Goliath's description of all his old haunts--the Rookery (I just love the line "I was hatched here" for some reason), the caves--are just so wonderful. Detailed and told with the weight of one visiting a past lifetime almost.
Hakon's axe: I was always torn between seeing it as the same one as in VENDETTAS, because that's just what GARGOYLES would do, and a different one because it only had one blade. I suppose the "eldritch, spectral energy" of Hakon may have reformed it, though. But yeah, a mace (THE mace, in fact) would have been just ripping. Practical and symbolic at the same time, with so much emotional resonance.
But on with the show. I liked how Goliath admits he still wanted revenge. Very in character, and realistic. It sounds like he's admitting it as much to himself as to Angela and Elisa. I wonder if that (coupled with hearing her voice) made Goliath think a little about what Demona had become. Or I might be going overboard here. Don't hesitate to say so.
The "old wounds" line--yeah, that's another one I liked right off as well.
Then Goliath sees Hakon and the Captain (or thinks he does) and instantly attacks. I'm not sure if, during my initial viewing, I thought Goliath was going insane. I think I picked up that Bronx was sensing something and so was prepared for something more supernatural. Or maybe not--like I said, I can't remember. Still, I think Goliath may have gone a *little* insane when he instantly attacked Elisa/Hakon and Angela/Captain without wondering how those two got there. Just shows that even the strongest rock can crack given enough pressure in just the right areas.
The glowing...blobs, floating in the air. Yeah, by that time I think I pretty much knew what was going on, a suspicion that was confirmed when Desdemona, Demona and Othello turned into Hakon and the Captain when Goliath wasn't looking their way.
Keith did a lot of good line readings for Goliath when he begins to doubt his sanity, but one of my favorites is "I can't trust what I see!" The pain and frustration conveyed by Mr. David is wonderful there.
I love it when Hakon's ghost comes flying right at the camera (Goliath's POV) with glowing eyes and mouth while Clancy Brown gives that great, gurggling-sort of yell. That was pretty cool/creepy.
I always wince when Bronx bites G in the arm to keep him from falling. Very painful, but you have to admire the pooch's determination. As well as Elisa's when she decides to climb down after her falling (more than) friend. I always liked the contrast between Angela's shocked reaction and Elisa's strong decision.
Goliath's fall is well done, and I'm glad it took him two tries to really stop himself.
The Captain always does seem to be the dissenting opinion against Hakon. Even before the Captain demands an end to Goliath's torture, he gives Goliath the credit of suspecting their plan. Maybe, deep down in the bottom of his...ectoplasym, the Captain was hoping Goliath would escape.
The rock zombies. :) Yes, their final "death" was cool and creepy, with their disintegration, but their original integration, with the pieces seeming to literally fall upward into place was also pretty neat in my book. Their sounds were good, too, with some of those weird high pitched roars and the double voices (were those both Ed Gilbert and Clancy Brown?). I also liked the look of "Hakon's Gargoyle" with the large nose.
Then they bring "Demona" out and everything (literally) goes to pieces. I loved the hand turning into a mace, BTW. Very cool.
The energy transfer. Maybe the fact that the Captian seemed rather gloating when he described to Goliath what would happen made his chage of heart seem to come out of left field. At any rate, I'm glad that when it came to getting what he thought he wanted, the Captain realized it wasn't really. As for Hakon, he's a jerk but the utter joy in his voice at being able to feel again is rather disarming. If he weren't a bad guy he'd be almost sympathetic. With Goliath, I like how he chooses to win this fight, not by taking out Hakon but by reasoning with the Captain (even when the process begins, his first impluse is to remind the Captain who had wronged whom). And even if the Captain's decision to attack Hakon seemed a bit sudden, it frankly made more sense to me. Hell, it was the only right way! The Captain was woefully misguided yes, but he wasn't the evil that was Hakon.
"LINES of power!" That's what Hakon was saying! I finally get it now.
The megalith dance was pretty cool all around (concept and execution), but, frankly, it almost gets overshadowed by the character interaction going on around/inside it.
Then, after the destruction, Goliath again describes the Captian as a friend (and again, Mr. David puts great emotion into that line). And then we see the Captain appear one final time. And yes...my first thought was that he looks younger than before. Maybe just less care-worn. At any rate, he has a truly heavenly type of exit. Beautiful.
I like how Goliath answers the question of what happened to Hakon. "He has made his fate, Angela, whatever it might be." I just love that line, and have seen how it could be applied to all sorts of people and incidents. And it just seems right that Goliath would say something like that.
And then we see Hakon. I don't know if I would have preferred seeing Hakon stay there. I suppose I knew, deep down, that a bad guy like him can't stay locked away forever. However, I must say that, IMHO, there's something inherently scary about complete stagnation. Even though we don't know where he finally went to after VENDETTAS, he at least moved on. To be trapped (inside a rock of all places) in complete solitude...with no guarantee of "moving on" before the "end of creation" seems to me to be a singularly scary prospect. Still, it's nice contrasting the spectral Captain's final passing here with Hakon's later on.
For me, this was an excellent start to the World Tour.

Todd Jensen writes...

Here's my ramble on "Shadows of the Past".

First off, of course, this is where the Avalon World Tour begins (if you don't count the "Avalon" triptych), which makes it a biggie. I agree with you that the reruns in between the three instalments of it (which aired, as I recall, in November-December 1995, February 1996, and May 1996 - more or less) make the World Tour seem longer than it really was. (Incidentally, you're right that you were able to bring out more than 18 episodes of "Gargoyles" in the September-December period; I remembered that the "fall run" ended with "Grief", and so worked out that it was 30 new episodes during that period).

As I mentioned before, I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour, and agree with you that something like that was necessary for the series at some point (especially in bringing in enough other gargoyles to make it feasible for the species to survive and recover - as I've mentioned here before, something along the lines of the World Tour was probably the only realistic way for Goliath to discover that there were gargoyles left in other parts of the world, given that he couldn't simply hop on board the next flight from New York to London or Japan).

Angela's correct (from the original legends perspective) about it always being summer on Avalon; in fact, I remember that the old Welsh legends about Avalon (or, more accurately, its "literary predecessors") called it the Summer Country or the Region of the Summer Stars.

In hindsight from "Vendettas", I picked up on the significance of that axe that Goliath unearths - and agree with you now that Hakon's mace from the Wyvern Massacre would indeed have worked better. Too late for that now, though.

I also liked that line (which I considered very poetic) of Elisa's about "old wounds".

The Captain and Hakon's tormenting of Goliath was very effective - probably the creepiest part, in my opinion, was when Angela and Elisa appear in Goliath's eyes to be the Captain and Hakon - but then we hear Angela and Elisa's voices coming from the Captain and Hakon's mouths.

The Captain of the Guard's change of heart worked for me (again, I especially liked the bit that you mentioned where he's looking troubledly at his hands as he and Hakon solidify). In fact, it made sense in view of his role in "Awakening" - he'd never wanted the clan massacred, and was horrified as to how that had gone wrong. I might add that Hakon showed, again, just how creepy he is when he gets into the fight with Goliath and begins laughing as his fists pass through Goliath - the reason for that being now, not that Hakon's insubstantial and Goliath solid, but the other way around.

Incidentally, the Captain actually appears better-looking in the scene where he's giving Goliath his thanks, just before he ascends.

And I'll confess that I'm one of those who would have preferred Hakon to have remained trapped in the cave for all time - I felt, when "Vendettas" aired, that it destroyed some of the effectiveness, in retrospect, of Hakon's sentence: trapped alone for eternity, with nobody at hand for him to hate. (Also, "Vendettas" felt anticlimactic on the Hakon front; in "Shadows of the Past", he battles Goliath by skillfully undermining him with a lot of psychological subtlety; in "Vendettas", he's reduced to simply fighting him in a slugfest with a big dumb werewolf - though don't tell Wolf that I called him that. :) ). But I do think that you made a good point about how, ultimately, Hakon would have to be given more permanent resolution than just that.

Incidentally, your treatment of the megalith that the Captain and Hakon were using, and your comments on it, make me wonder now how you would have handled Stonehenge if you'd ever gotten to do an episode involving it (especially since you mentioned having had plans to send King Arthur and Griff there during their quest for Merlin) - a pity that we may never know the answer to that now.

Petronius the Younger writes...

Hi, I have really enjoyed your ramblings, even though I haven't posted any of mine until now. Your "That's my ramble, where's yours?" line finally brought me to write one. :)

Avalon

After City of Stone, I was really looking forward to another multi-parter. It's quite amazing to me that with all the expectations, they never fail to deliver, even now.

Seeing Tom as the Guardian was quite a surprise. You almost never see characters age in cartoons. Seeing Tom go from the chubby cheeked little kid to an old man is quite a shock.

The middle age parts were excellent, as always. The transition from Wyvern to Edinburgh was very natural. It must have been the 4th or 5th time that the scenes right after the massacre. It's interesting to see it from different character's perspective each time.

The ending though was kind of a downer. I didn't like the fight between the characters too much, too cliched I thought. It seems strange that so much focus was put on Arthur, and then when he is awaken, he is just another foot soldier who fights Macbeth. Obviously Macbeth is a formidable character, but I was expecting something a bit more out of King Arthur, like taking on the archmage. Then that leaves Goliath who has to pull the eye of odin out of the archmage, which was kind of a bummer from all the focus on Archmage's powers.

The magus's death scene was really touching, one of the top moments in the show. I too wondered if he was really dead, but I figured that it was a way to leave it up in the air so as to leave for some creative wiggle room. I was very happy to read what you wrote on that subject. It put that subject to rest and was how I thought should be. Thanks.

Todd Jensen writes...

"Avalon Part Three" ramble.

I really liked this episode as well, especially with King Arthur being brought in. (And in my case, I was familiar with the "Pendragon" part of his name long before "Gargoyles" came out, and was both pleased and impressed that it was incorporated into the episode).

I may be biased (being a King Arthur fan), but I do look upon Elisa's awakening of King Arthur as one of the grand moments of her career; she actually restores to the world one of the most famous legendary heroes of all time. (One other note that occurs to me; Elisa isn't of British ancestry, which does fit in with your intention that Arthur's new destiny, after leaving Avalon, would ultimately lie outside Britain, and upon a larger stage).

The Magus might be old, but he was clearly still tough; Elisa had trouble keeping up with him all the way to the Hollow Hill.

I very much enjoyed the Magus's character development here, including his guilt over his hasty curse a thousand years before, his shouldering the responsibility for it without complaint or excuses, and his unrequited love for Princess Katharine. He really did become a sympathetic figure here.

(Incidentally, in light of your original idea of having him accompany Arthur - the Magus really does look much like the way that Merlin is often conventionally depicted in Arthurian art - except that his beard's shorter than Merlin's beard in the conventional representations of him. And, for that matter, although he doesn't leave with Arthur in the actual story, he's laid to rest on Arthur's sleeping place at the end).

I'm probably one of the extremely few "Gargoyles" fans who *didn't* think that that flashback scene with the hatchlings was taking place in the daytime. I always viewed it as being at night (it looked dark enough to me, in fact). I'd always assumed that the fans who thought that it was daytime were mentally merging it with the daytime flashback scenes where the hatchlings aren't present.

I liked the battle scene, including the choice of pairings, which struck me as appropriate ones (particularly Arthur versus Macbeth), and also the bit where the Archmage and Goliath are teleporting all about with the Phoenix Gate. (One possible nit here, though, is Princess Katharine being able to pick up so quickly on how to operate a laser cannon, given that back when she lived in the outside world, they were using bows and arrows and hadn't dreamed up even conventional fire-arms. But I think that the scene where she defeats Demona with it makes up for that nit).

The Magus's death: I agree that it's a tragic and moving moment. On the other hand, I've long felt that the fact that Goliath is able to forgive the Magus before he dies, and show him that what he'll be remembering him for is raising the hatchlings rather than cursing the clan, makes a good consolation for the old man.

I was excited to see Arthur also leaving Avalon, and hoped that we'd see more of his adventures in the series (and was right, even though it was just one episode and that spin-off never got made).

And I don't quite know what I was expecting when Tom called out at the end that "Avalon sends you where you need to me", but I enjoyed the Avalon World Tour when it came.

And thanks for the latest ramble, Greg.

Ancient Kaa The Souless writes...

My ramble of Avalon 2

Avalon 1-2-3 are among my best Gargoyles' episodes. However, 2 was always my favorite of the three, so I'll just talk about this one.

The exchanges between Archmage and Archmage+ were amazing. Funny too, specially:

- I could put you back where I found you. - No, no, no, no. (extra no added by me :-) )

- Are we going to take the grimoire from her now? - Weren't you listening?! (the background music really play well along with this line :-) )

- What am I supposed to do, eat it?! - You are learning.

- 900 and 75 years?! (it only takes a frown from Archmage+ to shut him up :-) )

- Then they must DIE!! - EXACLTY!! (OK I am saditic, so sue me)

David Warner stole the show. Love the new oufit of Archmage+. He also seem like he is having pointed ears.

In the early script, we now get to know the missing scenes from the Archamge flashbacks (FINALLY!). Wonder what our two Archmages would have worn in modern clothes :-)

The whole scene with the arifacts being given to Archmage was great. We also see that he isn't very polite and very rude: he just snatch the relic without saying "thanks".

My only complaint is that the assault on the castle didn't last long enough. But I still very love that episode. I'm just sorry Archamge+ be gone after ep 3. (Save for some flashbacks, Timedancer...)

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART THREE

One thing I forgot to mention in my thoughts on Part Two (and it's still relevant because it was featured in the recap): the Archmage's devouring of the Grimorum. I, too, found that a great image, and a nice way of sidestepping the "no magics" rule. Not to mention I love the little "[gulp] Ah..." the Archmage does.
Anyway, onto the fight.
When the folks at the palace decide to check out the Sleeping King, and Tom prepares to go, the Magus looks at Katharine's worried face and then volunteers to go instead. Yet another something I had to watch several times before I could fully appreciate it.
Angela and Gabriel check out the grotto (is that what it's called?). I like it when Demona jabs the laser rifle in Angela's ribs, and the younger gargoyle's first reaction is to elbow Gabriel and say "Stop it!" It was cool how Goliath temporarily overrode Macbeth and Demona's mind control by "appealing to their better natures," and then how the Archmage so easily reasserted his control. He had become quite a bit more powerful here, afterall. And then, of course, once things turn sour, and one of his enemies tries to take the Eye, the Archmage loses his cool and decides to start attacking NOW. His lines here are pretty neat and chilling ("They're my creatures now," and "...if they are so *eager* to *DIE*!" are ones I rather like, too).
It never ceases to amaze me how the Magus, a 72 year-old scholarly type, is able to make Elisa, a 27 year-old athletic type, ask him to slow down. I like Magus' line about being used to traveling alone, and how Elisa's mention of "the Princess and the Guardian" is contrasted with the Magus calling them "Katharine and Tom." His story was both a surprise and heartbreak to me--I had really thought from AVALON PART ONE that he would "get the girl" as most heroes do. As I said then (three weeks ago), the Magus had never looked quite so heroic. I had disliked him quite a bit in AWAKENING ONE and TWO, yet by the end of his appearance in TWO, his remorse kind of mitigated my disdain for him. In the first part of AVALON I really got to like him--you could see the depth of his feeling for Katharine, and his resolve and cunning with the way he saved the eggs and all. In PART TWO he showed how weak he felt without his magic book, and here...well by this time, the Magus had become a character I really liked and sympathized with.
Perhaps that's one reason that I became pretty much goggle-eyed upon learning that Katharine had fallen in love with Tom and vice versa. Then again, I did (and to some extent still do) suffer from a sort of "agism in male and female relationships." Of course, for that reason, I also applaud the princess and the pauper getting together simply because it now becomes a bit more unique. And I love the baby gargoyles!
BTW, Greg: rest assured that Elisa's lips were corrected in later airings, and on my tape the scene with the baby gargs actually looks more like a night scene (don't ask me how, maybe it's just my tape).
The Hollow Hill sequence was cool! I loved the Magus' spellcasting (now he has to ryhme like an Oberati), though I was of course confused until the Magus explained how he was able to do that. The "leap of faith"...Indy Jones, yeah, but I like how Elisa looked jumping.
And then the pillar lowers with (to me) some guy on it. She walks up to him, and says his name, "Arthur Pendragon..." It was at about that point that my jaw hit the floor and my eyes became as big as the moon. This was something I had not been expecting (due to my unfamiliarity with Arthur's "death") and as such became a huge, and enjoyable surprise to me.
I also like his presentation to the rest of the good guys. Until Elisa mentioned it, I had never realized that Goliath had never truly beaten Demona or Macbeth. I really liked this--it made them seem even more dangerous than before. And of course, King Arthur Pendragon, the legendary hero, reveals that he hasn't the slightest idea "what's going on." A funny moment that shows that, though legendary, Arthur is still a human.
I like how the Archmage looks when he says "I will wait here...for Goliath." An uber-villain look without a doubt.
Arthur's taking command of the situation and showing his strategist side is a nice scene (and he later proves that he is indeed a great warrior as well), and I noticed right away how (thematically) well paired off the adversaries were.
I think I'll follow your lead, Greg, and divide them up:
Arthur and Macbeth: The way Macbeth had spoken of Arthur in LIGHTHOUSE, this battle was only to be expected. I didn't mind Arthur's "manner of magic" as oppossed to "sorcery" (a little variety is alright in my book). I was surprised at Macbeth's sucker-kick when it took down Arthur. *That* part of the cliffhanger--Macbeth's sword at Arthur's throat--really got me (they were all tense, but Mac had the greatest warrior in legend at sword point!). Of course, Arthur still manages to defeat Macbeth (marvelously, I might add) with that oh-so-cool image of his ringed fist heading straight for Macbeth's face (the camera).
Demona vs. half the cast: I guess it says something that Demona needs THAT many people to take her down. One thing I love about this fight is how badly Gabriel's wings get torn up. The poor guy really gets battle damage here. Another moment--the gargoyles on the battlements fire arrows point blank at Demona...and MISS COMPLETELY!! "Not prepared...never honed combat skills" indeed! And then Demona goes after Elisa. I wonder if maybe somewhere in Demona's ensorcelled brain she sees this as a rematch of their previous hand-to-hand in HIGH NOON. Eventually, Katharine gets into the act in a very unexpected way. A bit of a stretch with her firing the gun perhaps, but still kind of fun.
The Magus vs the Sisters: I never caught the full meaning of Luna's "There is no future for you," but somehow I knew that the Magus was going to die in this battle. Something about his character, the tragedy and struggling. It made sense to me, from the moment he said "Leave them to me" about facing the Sisters, that he would die fighting them. His use of the magic is extrodinary, and I liked how the Sisters became outraged by his using Avalon's power. I also love Phoebe's fearful "Where is the Sleeping King?" when the Sisters finally make it into the Hollow Hill. And then the Magus casts his last spell. To be honest, I thought he was "all dead" when his hand went limp and fell backward onto the beir (sp?). I was actually kind of glad that we had a little bit more time with him afterwards.
Goliath and the Archmage (and Angela): This was a big one for me. The Archmage is pretty much the oldest adversary of the Wyvern Clan (with the possible exception of Iago). There is a sort of "epic" quality here with the way the Archmage and Goliath talk to each other (A: "I've waited a millenium for this." G: "You lose again, Archmage"--how many times have superheroes said that last one to their archfoes?). I remember wondering how Goliath was going to get out of this, until Angela showed up. One of my favorite scenes in this ep is when the Archmage freezes the lake, Goliath sinks out of sight as the Archmage laughs, and then the Archmage's eyes go wide as Goliath shoots up from the depths, giving a gurgling roar, and leaps through the ice. Finally, Goliath removes the Eye and the Archmage almost seems like he will continue being a threat. Then he gets incinerated by "magic energy" and dissolves in a cool death scene. Count me as another one who thinks the final line of the Archmage is pretty cool. There is a sort of sense of that "epic" quality coming to an end here. Goliath has defeated what was (as far as we know) the first true arch-villain he had ever encountered. There could be a world of meaning within his "It is over." And then the Archmage's scrying pool, as if to spite them, displays the dying Magus.
The death scene is a good one. In some ways, I find it more moving now than I did then (again, don't ask me why). I like the final exchange with Goliath.
G: "I owe you."
M: "You...but, I cursed your clan."
G: (shaking his head) "You saved my children."
And of course Katharine's grief over the passing of her friend from childhood caps the touching moment. Good voicework from Jeff Bennett and Kath Souci. It took me several viewings to notice it, but I thought the shooting star was a nice touch.
I always wondered why the "good-byes" seemed so strange to me. I suppose individual good-byes would be more realistic, but for a narrative...eh. I kind of got that Arthur would be visiting Manhattan eventually, so the foreshadowing was not wasted.
Goliath should laugh more. ;)
Angela's coming along. A new regular. This was something I had been wondering about for some time--if one of these new gargoyles we had just been introduced to would actually come along for the rest of the show. It made sense that it was Angela, what with all the angst her parentage would bring to light.
When Tom spoke about Avalon sending you where "you need to be," I kind of got a smile as I thought to myself "Oh, you guys aren't going to be getting back home for a while..." and got prepared for a world tour. Perhaps my reading about gargoyles in Guatemala, London, and Japan influenced me here.
One last interesting note. As with the previous two, I showed this one to my mother when it first aired. YEARS LATER, as I was telling her about your original plans for sending the Magus with Arthur, Greg, and your reasons for giving him a "good death" instead, she said, "Well, they also probably had to kill him off because his voice was too expensive." I, confused, looked at her and asked "What do you mean?" She, now looking confused herself, said, "Well, he was voiced by Michael York...wasn't he?" So when you see Jeff Bennett again, you may want to pass onto him that he does a good York!
This was a good ep with a feeling of closure and a sense of something exciting coming just over the horizon. It could have been a season finale, even. Just my thoughts.

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART TWO

Ah, the Archmage's ep. David Warner is another actor whose name and/or voice instantly catch my attention. He really does fantastic work in any of his roles (his turn as The Lobe on FREAKAZOID! always makes me smile), and this episode is no exception.
But I'm getting a little ahead of myself.
When Angela showed up, I can't quite remember what my exact thoughts were. I think I may have been pleasantly surprised that here was a *good* female gargoyle, who was also *alive*. I'm pretty sure that within the first few seconds of seeing her, I recognized her coloring pattern, and determined who she was. I thought it neat that she was named Angela (the opposite of Demona, and fitting, I thought, with the mindsets of her human parents). Gabriel's parentage took a bit longer for me. I think, some weeks later, I was trying to envision Gabriel in my head and Coldstone's face kept popping up (or was it the other way around?). Anyway, at that moment, I pretty much recieved a lightning bolt to the brain and realized Gaberiel's lineage.
The beach fight. I thought it was very well done (and am a little surprised that it wasn't in there originally), with the Archmage making good use of the material. I enjoyed the lines, too (especially Tom's idea that the air might attack them). In fact, when I showed this episode to my mother, she got a great kick out of "You beat up a beach." Just the way David Warner says it is great, too.
I had never picked up on Elisa's jelousy over the idea that Goliath and Demona were actually parents. It's a nice touch, a great character bit, and I wish I was more aware of it the first time.
Seeing Katharine and The Magus as older was a neat thing for me. I liked their new designs. And Kath Soucie and Jeff Bennett did good work aging their voices (although when old Magus speaks for the first time, Jeff Bennett seems to sound slightly different than he does for the rest of the three-parter).
I liked Goliath's reaction to seeing "laser burns." I don't know why, exactly. It just struck me.
I got the Archmage's Time Loop right off the bat. I liked it a lot--to me it was (at the time) a different approach to the whole "time travel" business. This sort of "you do what you always did" thing was touched on in VOWS, but here it's really exploited for all its worth. And I think it works well.
Now back to David Warner. I still find it hard to believe that he did both versions of the Archmage during the same session. He's able to invest each with particular mannerisms and yet keep the idea that they're basically the same guy. His line readings are great, too. You've already mentioned most of them, Greg, but the "No, no," and "Nine-hundred and seventy-five YEARS??!!" bear repeating.
The Archmage's plan was also pretty cool to watch. The picture of the happenings in Demona and Macbeth's life began to be completed, and (as cliched as he may have been) the Archmage took on a somewhat more majestic tone with the revelation that he had orchestrated so much (with a little help from the timestream/Luna--man, that girl can be subtle). I would have loved to have seen the rest of his planned time stops in there, but what we got was still pretty good.
As for the Weird Sisters...I think I was more disappointed than angry when I saw their "Fury" aspect dominant in these eps. It seemed to diminish their majesty and mystique when they revealed how much "vengence" had motivated them to do. (Hmmm, actually that could be another "lesson against vengence" there, Greg--it diminishes the respect one has in the eyes of others...or something like that, I guess).
BTW, in later airings, older Demona's model was fixed some. At least her hair's red, now.
The Archmage's intial attack on the palace was well choreographed (funny thing--even with the gargoyles as flesh, if he kept up like he did, he would have won; pity he didn't think about that). One thing that really struck me during the battle was Ophelia (of course, until ILL MET BY MOONLIGHT, I just knew her as "that female gargoyle with the triceratops plate"). Her design was that striking, probably because of her unique forehead. I think I was one of the ones who kind of thought there might have been something going on between Angela and Gabriel (they had always been seen together up until now, and, like I said, expectations of "animated relationships" kind of led me down that path). Even then, I had always found the scene with Gabriel and Ophelia here one that gave me pause. I really wish enough screentime remained to get a sort of stronger "nod" to the fact that THEY were the item (and for the rest of the Archmage+'s travels--they made his plan seem even bigger, and gave a better explanation of his knowledge of Goliath's being alive). But, "what you gonna do?"
The "caption countdown" was something I don't think I noticed, at least not consiously (sp?), the first time around. But it was pretty neat.
We return, finally, to "NOW" and the good guys as they start to come up with a plan. I liked the little moment between the Magus and Katharine after M has his bout of self-pity and K tries to snap him out of it. One wonders if they've had this conversation before. Goliath takes Angela and Gabriel with him for a strike on the Archmage, and suggests to Elisa that she come up with a contingency plan (I'm not sure, but I think my mother may have said, "Smart Goliath."). I like the look on Elisa's face here--the phrase "in case this doesn't work," is never really good, but it has the potential to be very bad.
Then she asks about "the Sleeping King" (and I *know* my mother said, "OOoo, smart Elisa!"). Now, I will admit my ignorance and say that at the time I watched this, my knowledge of Arthurian Legend encompassed only the Disney movie "The Sword in the Stone," a few episodes of the Family Channel's "Prince Valiant," and various pop-culture references. As such, I had no idea about Arthur's connection with Avalon, and in fact had never even heard of Avalon before this (I just liked the sound of the name). So the revelation of who "the Sleeping King" was turned out to be quite a nice surprise for me. (As for my mother...I'm pretty sure she knew who they were talking about--she had read ONCE AND FUTURE KING).
And then the Archmage sees his would-be attackers, and laughs...and quickly vanishes for "To be concluded." I liked that phrase here, actually. It begged the question of how they were going to get out of this mess in so little time.
A cool episode, it served as the centerpiece of the "triptych" (sp?) quite well.

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble on "Avalon Part Two".

I really liked this episode (and never had any confusion with the time loop, since I've done similar things in my own fiction, conceived years before "Gargoyles" ever came out; indeed, a certain time loop that I've planned in the book that I'm currently writing - although I can't say anything more about it than that - fits beautifully the part where the Archmages say to each other "You're sure you know what to do?" "Of course. I've watched you do it.")

The introduction of Angela and Gabriel's names (alongside the whole "gargoyles being given names" process that you referred to) illustrates nicely just how Princess Katharine and the Magus's attitudes towards gargoyles have changed since "Awakening Part One". Now, they're naming gargoyles after angels rather than villainous giants. (Although, regarding Boudicca's name, as we agreed earlier, they couldn't have been too familiar with the original Boudicca's career when they named the gargoyle beast.)

I picked up easily enough on Angela's parentage (especially because of that article that I mentioned in the "Double Jeopardy" ramble); I never even suspected that Gabriel might be Othello and Desdemona's biological offspring until I discovered Gargoyles fandom on the Internet, though.

I definitely guessed from the start who the Sleeping King was (of course, from the moment that Avalon got into the story, I was hoping that Arthur would show up - and was mentally jumping up and down in excitement when Elisa actually asked about him at the end of Part Two). It's interesting to note that, judging from the Archmage's response, even by the late 10th century in the Gargoyles Universe, Arthur had faded into the mists of legend (of course, the same thing must have been true of him in the real world, judging from what I've read about early mentions of him in medieval writings predating Geoffrey of Monmouth).

About the Weird Sisters: I was more bothered over the Grace vs. Vengeance conflict than the Fate vs. Vengeance one, for my part. I was having a very difficult time reconciling their desire for blood and vengeance with all their talk in "City of Stone" about every life being precious and vengeance being wrong. (It actually made them seem worse than the Archmage, in fact; he, at least, was introduced in the series as a villain from the start, while the Sisters started off appearing to be benevolent. Truth to tell, my response to their behavior in "Avalon" was probably not too different from how Lexington felt in "The Thrill of the Hunt" when he discovered that the Pack weren't quite so heroic as they'd seemed to be).

I agree with you on David Warner's voice; it's great. Definitely justified bringing the Archmage back. (I'm actually reminded of an episode of "Batman Beyond" that I once saw. In it, Bruce Wayne had a reunion with Talia, only to discover that she'd been "taken over" by Reis el-Ghul following his final defeat by Batman (off-stage, some years previous), who'd somehow transferred his consciousness into her body. During the latter part of the episode - after the truth was revealed - Talia spoke in Reis's voice, done by David Warner as per "Batman: TAS". Although I knew that that was scientifically impossible - a mere mind-transplant couldn't have altered her voice - I didn't protest because David Warner did such a great job that he simply had to be in that episode. Leaving him out of the voice actor roster for the story would have been unthinkable.)

And I agree with you that, despite all his power, the Archmage ultimately comes across as not all that bright. (My favorite part is where he has to admit that, although he's spent all that time seeking to unite all three magical objects into one big Triad of Power, he hasn't even decided what he's going to do with it. And he even has to be nudged by his future self into picking the obvious goal for a cliched villain: Taking Over the World.) I LOL when you mentioned that the real reason why the two Archmages can't work together for long was because of their utter arrogance.

The scene where he becomes the "enhanced Archmage", as I call him, was very effective - and the bit where he eats the Grimorum definitely jolted me. It'd been around from the very start of the series, and so it shook me up a bit to see it go. (I know that the book's real end is in Part Three, but for me, the bit where the Archmage eats it is where it exits the series). And I also really liked the "caption countdown". It gave a feel of approaching ominousness and tension.

I'm eagerly awaiting your Part Three ramble now.

Ed writes...

Although I don't really have time to rewatch and ramble to most of the episodes as you do them (at least, not right now), I wanted to respond to one of the questions you posed in your "AVALON PART ONE" ramble.

With regard to denoting 'parts' on continued episodes, I'm massively in favour of it. The conventional wisdom you mention, for me at least, is completely wrong: "part one" tells me that there's something worth watching, or at least more likely to be worth watching, particularly as it's such a rare thing in cartoons, and many television programmes.

Although they were titled separately as I recall, I loved the multi-part stories that Disney did for 'Ducktales' with Gizmoduck and Bubba. I love continuity, and particularly given that the last 'Gargoyles' multi-part outing was 'CITY OF STONE'... well, it was a good move to mark the 'part one' at the beginning.

Ray Kremer writes...

The funny thing about the first time I saw the Avalon trilogy is that I knew next to nothing about Arthurian legend. The name Avalon meant nothing to me and that the "sleeping king" was Arthur came as quite a surprise. And then maybe a month later my high school enlgish class began doing Arthurian legend. When we got to his death a big light went on in my head as everything finally connected. I even asked the teacher if the island of Avalon had any other special significance, half expecting her to say it was the kingdom of Oberon and the fairies.

Heh. That reminds me. Earlier that year we read MacBeth, and since City of Stone had already been on I didn't enjoy the play one bit. Mac as the villian just seemed wrong. Even so, it was the voice of John Rhys-Davies in my head as I read. That classroom had a big poster on one wall displaying the family tree of British royalty through the centuries, and as you might expect I went looking and indeed found MacBeth, Gruoch, Luoch, Gillecomgain, Duncan, and Canmore back in 11th century Scotland.

Blondewookiee writes...

Well I don't really have a question my sister MaryMack has been here a couple of times and says that you were making references to how many licks does it takes to get to the center of a tootsieroll pop, well I know. The number is 1478 approx.

Blaise writes...

AVALON PART ONE

I liked having the "Part 1" addendum to the title. It whetted (sp?) my appetite for a longer and more involved story than usual. Plus, the "To be continued" at the end didn't piss me off nearly so much since I knew it was coming and had mentally prepared for it.
There's so much cool stuff in this episode, I hardly know where to begin. Well, I might as well start at the beginning.
The clan goes out on patrol, minus Bronx, as per usual, and Goliath--a bit of a surprise that. But then, the big G does seem like the type to want to finish book when he gets to the good part. I wonder what exactly it was he was reading (and how miffed was he when it turned out it would be months before he could get back to it?).
Bronx's saddness at not going with the others helped to underline this particular instance. You know, I guess it says something that I never realized how often Bronx was left behind. Well, this time pooch is getting exposure.
The Guardian. I knew it had to be Tom for the same reason I knew Brooklyn was going to be Second-in-Command--Disney Adventures (an article this time, as oppossed to a comic). The article also said that the show would feature gargoyles native to other parts of the world, including (fanfare, please) Avalon! So I had some idea of what to expect there as well. But I will say that Tom the Guardian's entrance was quite impressive. I love his armor, and the way he refers to the lead ruffian as "sirrah."
Laws of TV and movies at work: within about two seconds of the breaking of the store window, the police show up. Two patrol cars, and 2-3 cops on foot (including Morgan). Talk about being in the right place at the right time.
Morgan's interaction with the Guardian is great. Tom's initial accusation of them being lawless undercut by Morgan's identifying himself, and Tom's rather knightly way of submitting to the law. A nice dignified bit until Morgan drops the sword.
Morgan talks to Elisa, and I like the way he describes the Guardian as "differnt, good somehow." Morgan definitely has a rather insightful and perceptive quality to him.
I didn't pick up on the meeting by Belvedere castle as a clue of any kind, unfortunately. Nor did I believe that when Tom was referring to the "eggs" he meant it in the literal sense of the term (after all, gargoyle eggs hatch after ten years (this was in the article, too) so they must have grown at least a little bit).
Let me just finish with the article now--the revelation that gargoyles existed in other parts of the world really excited me. Now the characters were no longer "the last of their kind," so this was something of a new approach in a series for me (I hadn't gotten to see that much of the GUMMI BEARS). This turning upside down of what my expectations had been at the beginning of the series was really fun.
Back to the show, the Guardian eventually mentions the Archmage. This was a complete and total surprise to me. He was dead! How could he come back like this? If I hadn't been hooked already (and I was) this would have clinched it.
The flashback starts. It's interesting to contrast Tom's traveling in the back of the cart with the eggs here to Demona's memory of him sitting up front (aah, it's probably just two different animation studios/storyboards, but I like the idea of a POV prism). Tom's solemnity (sp?) about his vow is rather touching in its way.
I liked the little scene with Tom and the Magus pushing the cart through the rain. They were becoming friends as well, it seems.
First impressions at the dinner: The King was a nice enough gentleman (voiced by Morgan Shepard), while Constantine's brief appearance here was not enough for me to form any opinions about him yet. Finella aroused some distrust in me for some reason...maybe her hollowed cheeks (that's how they looked to me), or the hint of insincerity in her voice when she spoke to the king, OR the scowl she gave when Constantine proposed the toast to Katharine. Anyway, next to her there was Maol Chalvim--who definitely looked more than a little sinister to me. This might have something to do with his sour expression, hollowed face, stylized eyebrows and Xanatosian beard. Suffice to say, their turning out to be "good guys" in this episode surprised me a bit (but the knowledge that Maol Chalvim would kill his cousin and take the throne did not surprise me at all).
I liked that people (at least Maol Chalvim) tended to look askance at Katharine's care for the gargoyle eggs. And Maol Chalvim already suspected Constantine's treachery ("they can smell their own" sort of thing I guess). I liked Constantine's scowl after Maol's thinly veiled insult.
Details. You just gotta love details. The Magus is writing in the Grimorum (the story of his cursing the gargoyles, perhaps?) and stops to look up when Constantine enters. Then he remains in the background while the future-usurper talks with Katharine. He senses the same thing Finella does (not that Constantine does much to hide it).
I love how when Finella mentions the King's proposal of marriage to her, Constantine seems somewhat incredulous that she has not accepted. A telling bit of character that.
Then Constantine murders Kenneth (who saw that coming? *countless hands raise into the air*). I liked how Finella turned out to be a more sympathetic figure here, through her devestation at this turn of events. And Tom (details--the tears down his cheeks) sees it all. I know kids had to grow up more quickly then, but MAN! Seeing that has got to affect a kid, no matter what era.
Scenes of the usurpation occur, and of course show what a jerk Constantine is. Maol Chalvim kills a guard (off-screen, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out what happened), and tries to get Katharine to flee. You're right, Greg, he is rather heroic here actually. I didn't see any smile though, after Katharine tells him to go for the last time. His face registers more a shocked expression. It's still an awkward transistion (especially because you only see it for half a second), but better than a smile.
Constantine tries to force Katharine into marriage, and it's only Mary and Tom that keep the Magus from rushing him (details again, yay!) while Finella runs away in, what seemed to me, a rather embarrassed fasion (one wonders if she, *ahem* gave more to Constantine than that one kiss).
About this scene, where Constantine is crowned, I find a contrast between this and Macbeth's back in CITY OF STONE. When Macbeth did it, I really believed that he meant those words. With Constantine, it seemed more of a PR thing. That could be just because we already knew what those characters were like before they took the oath, but I also think that Ian Buchanan just does good voice work here (and throughout the episode).
RE: The amount of broken crockery. Maybe Tom went and broke it for the plan to work. Or, hey, maybe Constantine and his boys are just a rowdy lot who like to break things (now THAT would be ironic). I like how the "magical glow" begins and ends with the eggs and their dopplegangers.
I loved the romantic moment between the Magus and Katharine in the next scene where he promises to take her beyond the ends of the earth. I did expect them to wind up together. Actually, I kind of expected it from AWAKENING PART 5--his anger there seemed very much like that of a man who lost his love.
Finella shows up and offers her help in the matter. I like her admission that she does it "more to hurt Constantine." True to the character, and a nice moment in an animated series.
Then the Magus tells us the "spiked-cider" plan. Actually, the Magus really gets to shine as a hero in this episode. He comes up with the plan to get the eggs to safety, and then, once Finella is brought in, comes up with the method to get Katharine out of the castle. Throughout all this, he has planned to take them all to Avalon, and when the Weird Sisters block their path, he is able to defeat them, not just with magic, but by skillfully weilding the steering pole as well. And then, for love, he gives up his magic book. It really isn't surprising that a fair number of fans really like this guy. Once he got past that "bigot" problem, he could be quite dashing and romantic (then again, since some folks take the same view of Brooklyn, maybe it's got something to do with Jeff Bennett).
I liked how Finella offered to take the book. This was a surprisingly noble gesture on her part. And not one that I expected. And then Mary offers to stay with her. I love her line, "One woman alone could get into trouble. TWO women can cause plenty of it." Mary is an interesting character. Like Katharine, once she got past the "bigot" problem she was quite a good judge of character. Also quite daring in her own right. I hadn't even noticed Kath Soucie voiced Mary until...I want to say the credits, but when Mary said "I'll stay with Finella" I half-thought that came from Katharine (leaving me very confused), until Mary's image popped up on the screen again. So that was how I figured they were both voiced by the same woman. Still, excellent work otherwise. Kind of sad that Mary and Tom had to separate, but then too, boys tended to become men much earlier in those days.
Back in the present, the Guardian spells out the time difference (fair enough) and Goliath asks about the Archmage, mentioning how that cad died before Tom was even born (a nod to continuity I was grateful for). Then we get to Avalon, and get our first glimpse of the new clan. I think I only recognized that we had a female, a male, and a beast, before Goliath's surprised face filled the screen. And excellent little cliffhanger that left me eager for the next episode as well.

Entity writes...

AVALON, PART ONE

I agree with Todd that, in principle, I like that you identified the multi-parters as such. Looking back, it feels more honest and manageable that way. But I gotta admit, upon the FIRST viewing, the labeling always made "Part One" stick out. Once you knew it was a multi-parter, you set yourself up for something big, so it was less fluid. For instance, in "Avolon, Part One," I knew it was a multi-parter, so when they arrive at the shore of Avalon and glimpse the "eggs" I don't blow soda out of my nose, but rather say, "Oh, so they're finally getting around to tieing up that loose-end about the Wyvern eggs. Cool." For me, at least, the honesty of telling the viewer ahead of time that it is going to be a multi-parter "spoiled" me, so that I expected something big, rather than getting it rewarded to me.

Todd Jensen writes...

My thoughts on "Avalon Part One".

First off, a little about the eggs. I honestly hadn't expected to see anything further with the eggs at this point. The reason was that I'd always assumed that the eggs were indeed all gone, as Xanatos had claimed in "Awakening Part Two", even after we found out what he was really like, for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the Awakening. Since I didn't think it likely that gargoyles live naturally for a thousand years, my assumption always was that the eggs had hatched long ago and that the gargoyles that had hatched from them had grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before as well. I hadn't taken into account the possibility of a place where time moved slower.

(Of course, thinking over it some more, I should have expected the eggs to return, simply because, if they weren't going to, their inclusion to date would have been almost pointless. After all, they'd had no real impact on the storyline in "Awakening" - the mere fact that the video version was able to edit them out is proof enough of that - so that would have to mean that something further with them would have to be done, or else why include them in "Awakening" at all?)

Regarding your multi-parter comments: I also prefer it when the first episode of a multi-parter clearly labels itself as "Part One". That way, I'm already prepared for the "To Be Continued" part. So I'm glad that you always labeled the multi-parters as such.

I was a bit amused to notice the Brigadoon alternative to Avalon, in light of the fact that you did manage to use Brigadoon as the Avalon-substitute in your "Gargoyles meet Captain Atom" story. And, yep, I was definitely looking out for King Arthur to show up at some point in this story, given that the thing that Avalon is most famous for is being his resting-place. (More about that in my ramble on Part Two when it comes).

Needless to say, I enjoyed the flashback. More 10th century Scotland! And more real Scottish history! In some ways, it was even more fun than the Macbeth backstory in "City of Stone"; after all, I already knew about the historical Macbeth before "Gargoyles" ever came out, but I'd never heard of Kenneth II and Constantine III before. After seeing this episode, I eagerly looked up everything on them that I could at the local library (although I wasn't able to find much, thanks to the scanty records for this part of Scottish history).

Constantine definitely struck me as shrewd when he provided a very convincing "innocent reason" for the secret meeting in the drying-house (the argument that it would be better for Kenneth's dignity to have Finella turn down his suit in private, rather than before his entire court). I thought he made a good antagonist here, even if for only one episode.

(I haven't seen the McKellen "Richard III" movie, by the way, but I do have a book that McKellen wrote about the making of it, including the screenplay, which I found fascinating reading.)

I also liked the mention of Michaelmas, which added to the medieval flavor of the story. (It's things like this that make me regret the fact that you never got to make the "Dark Ages" spin-off. Of course, I suppose that an animated series set entirely in 10th century Scotland wouldn't be all that commercially viable, more's the pity.)

I'm looking forward to your rambles on Part Two and Part Three, as well.

Blaise writes...

THE PRICE

I really like this ep. I liked it when I first saw it and I still like it now.
It's nice to have Hudson in the spotlight again, and Xanatos' quest for immortality is expanded upon while, just for good measure, we get a greater glimpse into Owen's character. Yeesh! Quite a lot stuffed into this ep.
I didn't begin to guess that "Macbeth" wasn't the real deal until the second time he appeared. His "Trophies" line, though not in character for the old Scottish noble, as Todd pointed out, seemed to me like it could have just been something of a joke. But when he showed up the second time, and repeated a line he had said before, in the exact same way, I began to figure out he/it was a robot. I did love how it "died"--Goliath punching his arm straight through its gut, and then the eye-pop, as the voice runs down, followed by a final explosion! I loved it.
When "Hudson" didn't wake up along with the other gargoyles, I was completely convinced that we were seeing the real Hudson under another magic spell. I had not read the Disney Adventures comic by Mr. Nordling, and consequently suspected nothing. At the end of Act I, I did indeed see Hudson's appearance in the cage as taking place within his mind. It wasn't until Act II had begun, and I saw the strange floor underneath the cage (not to mention the appearance of Xanatos and Owen), that I realized here was the real Hudson, and the one the other's were looking after was a decoy.
Hudson and Xanatos did have some great interaction here. I don't know about them being better adversaries than Goliath and (David) Xanatos, but there is something there. I think Hudson can figure out what really scares Xanatos because he himself is already there (the possibility that he was the last survivor of his generation even before the massacre leads to a certain viewpoint on the inevitability of death). Also, they throw their own quips and insults back and forth quite a bit.
Then too, there's Hudson's attitude towards Xanatos' plans. When X takes the stone skin, Hudson just asks "So, are ya through with me?" This is interesting because Goliath's most probable reaction, IMHO, would be to ask what game Xanatos was playing now. And at the end, Goliath would have probably destroyed the cauldron to keep Xanatos from any power it might bestow (and possibly just to spite X as well). Hudson, however, doesn't see any point to destroying the cauldron, and just wants to go home. He even shares a profound thought with Xanatos. And Xanatos, for his part, let's Hudson go in a rather honorable fashion. As I said, I don't know if they're "better natural adversaries" than Goliath and David, but Hudson and X do have an undeniable dynamic here.
Somehow, I knew that Goliath would suggest trying to seek out Demona at some point. I mean, she is the only sorceress they know of. I liked how that was worked in--a last resort sort-of thing.
Broadway's turning to stone in mid-air was something I had been waiting for. Well, not Broadway specifically, but one of the gargoyles, of course--it had to happen sooner or later. I kind of figured the box on the crane had something in it to save BW from shattering, but personally, I would have preferred "Extra Comfy-Soft Mattresses" (sp?) to the rolled up Persian rugs. Eh, minor quibble.
I didn't much care that the Hudson statue was blown up because I already knew about Hudson's being alive. I did, however, like the way the various reactions were portrayed. Goliath's rage was awesome. One of his most chilling moments in the series.
The "semi-Wind Ceremony" for Hudson, was nicely done, and nicely undercut by the old codger himself. I also liked his little remark about the head. On that track, I always enjoyed the way Hudson escaped from Xanatos and all ("Swordless maybe, helpless NEVER!"--too cool).
Although I thought Owen was cool, this episode was the one that really impressed me in regards to his character. I was completely stupefied when Owen just went up and dunked his arm into the Cauldron, resulting in it turning to stone. He had been permanently changed. Another one of the cool things about GARGOYLES: changes occur and cannot be reversed. I silently applauded the episode for daring to do this with one of its characters.
Of course, this aired out of order in my area, and although I missed THE CAGE, I saw DOUBLE JEOPARDY after this and noted that Owen's left hand was still flesh. Although I considered this a possible oversight, maybe somewhere at the back of my mind I realized that this just aired early, so I didn't mind too much.
OTHER NOTES: Lot's of fun lines and exchanges here. All those already mentioned, as well as the following between Brooklyn and Lexington:
LEX: "The city sure is different when it snows."
BROOK: "Yeah. It's colder."
I still laugh at that.
When Macbeth's guns were manned by Banquo and Fleance, the old man's mansion got pretty shot up in the ensuing fight. This time however, run by a computer, the mansion did not seem to sustain a single hit. Still, the cannons did shoot each other, so...nevermind.
I don't think I even realized that Brooklyn had said the word "Jalapena" until after I had watched PROTECTION (which had aired after this) and this one a second time. The first time around, I guess I just ignored it because I couldn't really understand it.
When "Macbeth" dies the first time, and Goliath says "I had no choice," Hudson calmly brushes the incident (and some of the dust) off. I like this sort of reasonableness about Hudson. He shows he's defintely more of the "old soldier," the 10th century warrior even, than the younger gargoyles in the clan. Incidentally, I never thought Hudson was going to die in this episode. That might have been me being tv-savvy...or just in denial.
And I thought the animation was spectacular (though the shadows in the beginning did make it look almost as though Goliath had a moustache (sp?).
At any rate, a wonderful episode.

Todd Jensen writes...

My own ramble on "The Price".

You mentioned in the course of your ramble a number of misconceptions that first-time viewers of this one could have had; I'll confess that, the first time that I saw "The Price", I fell victim to all of them!

1. I thought at first that Hudson might actually die in this episode, between the name of it and Goliath's line in the "Previously on Gargoyles" section about how Hudson had years ahead of him to live. I was relieved to see that Hudson doesn't actually pay the price (although Owen does, in a different sense, but I'll get to that later).

2. I thought at first that Macbeth really had turned Hudson to stone (and, when you stop to think it over, it probably wasn't too difficult to dupe the audience into believing it, thanks to the fact that we already knew that it was possible to trap a gargoyle in his stone sleep, with the Magus in "Awakening").

3. Since I knew that only Demona could kill Macbeth, I wasn't surprised at all by the fact that Macbeth "returned from the grave", to battle the clan again, and thought that he'd survived because it was Goliath who "slew" him rather than Demona.

4. And when I first saw Hudson in the cage, I thought that it was a metaphor for the spell imprisoning him. Even after Xanatos and Owen showed up, I initially thought that they were just "metaphors", like Xanatos being the shape of the Xanatos Program in "Legion". But I soon understood otherwise.

I did get suspicious about "Macbeth" in this episode, though, not so much from the "only a few lines", as from the fact that he appeared to be acting out-of-character here. I found it hard to believe that Macbeth really would go gargoyle-hunting just for the sake of a few trophies; that motivation was more appropriate to, say, the Pack. I could buy the notion of Macbeth going after the gargoyles again, but for a cause much bigger than just something to have stuffed and mounted. (Especially since, after "City of Stone", I'd become quite fond of him). So the "robot revelation" worked for me.

I also get a kick out of the scene where Xanatos acquired a bit of Hudson's stone skin. Just one of those moments that makes it so hard not to have a sneaking admiration for the man. "There, that wasn't so hard now, was it?"

This is the episode where we learn about Xanatos's desire for immortality, but it occurs to me that we also get a hint of it in "City of Stone", where Demona dupes Xanatos into thinking that the effect of her spell is to steal one minute of life from everybody who watches it, which she can use to augment their life-spans.

I very much enjoyed the interplay between Hudson, Xanatos, and Owen (I honestly hadn't thought that "The Price" helped lead to Puck's use of Xanatos and Hudson slaying each other in "Future Tense" prior to your ramble, I must admit), which certainly had some fine moments there. Like many viewers, I particularly found interesting the fact that Hudson wasn't interested in destroying the Cauldron of Life, but just in regaining his freedom. And also how Xanatos lets him escape from the castle on the grounds of "he's earned it".

Of course, the biggie here is Owen getting his hand turned to stone. That was one bit that definitely got my attention, because of the permanent change to a major character. (Interestingly enough, I didn't pay that much attention to the characters' response to the stone hand, maybe because I was too busy dealing with the mere physical change to pay attention to the fact that Owen was just staring at it. In fact, it wasn't until "The Gathering Part One" that I started to really suspect the truth about Owen, but that's another story.) Still, you've got to admit that it beats being turned into an anthropomorphic aardvark. :)

Entity writes...

THE PRICE

This is one of my all-time favorite episodes. The revelation that Macbeth was an android was done with astounding grace. I didn't realize he was a robot until Goliath's arm literally went through him. And then when I did realize, I didn't feel cheated, because it made sense out of everything (why he would be working for Xanatos, why he kept repeating those same four lines, why he had become such a narrow-minded character all of a sudden).

In general, I watched GARGOYLES with a jaded perspective. I kept waiting for it to become the run-of-the-mill, hackneyed cartoon series. I did this because I was so terrified of the show becoming that. So, when it appeared Macbeth was being used as a stock antagonist, I rolled my eyes. When it looked like we were supposed to be fooled into thinking Macbeth really died and then being surprised when he returned, I rolled my eyes. When it all made sense, it kind of restrengthened my resolve in the show.

I didn't expect Hudsun to leave without doing anything to the Cauldron. That was well-done. I was also left with my mouth hanging open when Owen stonified his arm.

My only complaints about this episode are that I think your original hunches were better on. We should've seen Banquo and Fleance at Macbeth's, and Broadway shouldn't have gotten frozen in stone in mid-air. The rescue was too hard to believe. I noticed and appreciated Elisa not hitting the cable on the first shot, but it was still too convenient, and really, it was a distraction. Hudson was the one in jeopardy this episode, not Broadway.

But none of that matters. Macbeth was a robot. I don't think another scene had me in more shock, short of when Elisa seemed to fall to her death in HUNTER'S MOON.

pizza girl writes...

dear greg, i have oftin wondered if there is a behgining to the end of the real show like right after the last episode i see all these new carectors in the fanfic and am lost is there a begining to all the new carectors? thanx!

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble on "The Cage".

I quite liked this episode, especially since I'd been wondering a little over what happened to the Mutates after "Metamorphosis"; oddly enough, the one whom I was really wondering over was Maggie more than Talon. (Part of it was that I always had a strong sense of sympathy for Maggie, finding herself suddenly and unexpectedly "drafted" into a "war" that she didn't even suspect was taking place when she came to New York, and feeling much more the "ordinary person" in all of this than Derek/Talon did. I especially found myself wondering whether she'd find a cure, and even, at the climax, was half-expecting her to get cured when she took the phial from Sevarius.)

Regarding the identity of Sevarius's kidnapper: I honestly don't recall for certain what I thought the first time that I saw this episode. But Goliath as the kidnapper did make sense, given that he had the motive. I thought that the interaction between Goliath and Elisa over that act was well-done.

I hadn't really thought that Claw's muteness was in part a way of saving on voice actors (though it does make sense) - a lot of that comes, in part, from the fact that my writing has always been of the "written page" variety as opposed to the so that I've never had to give serious consideration to the logistics for writing for television (or the movies, for that matter), where you do have to concern yourself with things such as actor availability or actors needing to be paid. I saw his muteness more in terms of the cornerstone of his characterization (assuming that it's based on the shock and horror of his situation). I hadn't noticed before now that Diane doesn't speak in the episode, by the way.

I share your enjoyment and delight in Xanatos's lines such as "He's the scientist; you're just the experiment. Oh, hello, Goliath, almost didn't see you there." Definitely ranks among Xanatos's all-time great lines. Another of my favorites is Sevarius's "Nothing is so annoying as having someone watching over my shoulder" (though, frankly, I'm a little surprised that he actually dared speak that way to Goliath!)

The ending with the Mutates and Mazas is a lovely one, and it is nice to see Talon's family still accepting him despite his condition. Not to mention the shot of Goliath watching with an approving smile behind the curtain.

As for the "cage symbolism", I honestly hadn't picked up on it all the way until now. It's nice to know about that at last.

Blaise writes...

THE CAGE

Like METAMORPHOSIS and later, KINGDOM, I missed this episode the first time it aired. I did see it after METAMORPHOSIS though, and the rest of the second season (sans KINGDOM). Consequently, I had already become familiar with Vinnie in VENDETTAS, and had seen the new designs of the Mutates in THE RECKONING. Even though I had seen Claw in FUTURE TENSE, I wasn't sure if he was the same character as the "Tiger Mutate" because he didn't have wings. Fang in a jail cell...didn't surprise me. Having seen the way he liked his new form at the end of METAMORPHOSIS, I kind of figured he was a ne'er-do-well. Regardless, I was *extremely* happy to see this "lost chapter" in the series.
Even after having seen VENDETTAS, I still remained convinced that it was Talon who had kidnapped Sevarius. I think it was the kidnapping-sillohuette (sp?) that sold me--it looked enough like Talon in my eyes. And I remained convinced until I saw the image on Vinnie's security screen.
Speaking of which, it was fun watching Vinnie here, even in hindsight.
I had seen Beth Maza first in CLOUD FATHERS, so her appearance here had less impact on me than it probably would have, but she had some nice moments (especially the reminisce (sp?) about Derek).
I did rather like the new character designs (and my Mom, who has a thing for black panthers, *loves* Talon). I also like that Maggie tries to be the peacemaker in the first battle.
Actually there's a lot of interesting things about Maggie in this episode. Even though she's not a "warrior" she is confident enough to disagree with Talon, something she does in the beginning fight, when Talon accuses Goliath of being in cahoots with Sevarius, and at the end when Talon is ready to kill the doctor regardless of the chance for a cure.
Her interaction with the gargoyles themselves presents some fascinating qualities. She's openly apologetic to Hudson when Fang and Claw capture him and Bronx, and seems rather quiet around all the others...except Brooklyn. He is the *only* one in this episode who she becomes angry or confrontational with. I really like this. It's like a holdover from their first encounter, and has her actually arguing against Brooklyn for the idea she had disagreed with in the first place (especially when his thoughts threaten the hope that Xanatos will cure her). Also, it strikes me that the ease with which Maggie can confront Brooklyn is an indication that he is...more familiar to her, maybe? She just seems (to me) to act far less awkward around him. Of course, she did take him out with an electric bolt a month and more back.
As for Brooklyn, he really showed his maturity in this ep. He does not make a decision based on his crush here, and his letting Maggie and the rest go free probably went farther towards gaining their trust than trying to argue with them about Xanatos (well, Maggie and Claw anyway, Fang was out cold).
Re: Talon and Maggie's relationship. I saw it happen pretty much right when she glided down to stand between Talon and Elisa & Goliath. The way they talked to each other, the way they touched each other--it's amazing how close a couple can become when they've got nothing to rely on but each other (and two others, one who doesn't talk and other who talks too much) for several weeks.
Sevarius (and unfortunately, Greg, the misspelled briefcase was never corrected) is a lot of fun in this ep. We see him at the mercy of a gargoyle again, and he has some fun lines here ("I dislike having to work with someone hanging over my shoulder--Oh, wonderful, now there's two of you!"). My brother (who watched this with me the first time) loved one sequence in particular: in the third Act, when Goliath and Elisa are having their heart-to-heart, Sevarius is in the background mixing chemicals that frequently produce small explosions of green smoke. Fun!
Fang I had already known at length before, so it didn't surprise me that he was a bit of a jerk to Claw and abrasive with everyone else. What surprised me was that, despite this, he seemed rather chummy with them all (especially at the end) and never even argued with Talon. Maybe he did like being part of the group at first, and didn't have a bone to pick with Talon as long as he was sent to beat people up.
I finally got to learn more about Claw, too. I liked that his muteness was a result of trauma from the transformation.
Goliath and Elisa stay true to their personalities. Even when I found out that Goliath was the one who kidnapped Sevarius, I didn't feel for a minute that it was out of character for "our hero." I had never thought that Goliath's behavior here was a sort of indicator of what he would be like in EYE OF THE STORM, but it certainly makes sense. I did like Goliath's spying on the happy reunion at the end. It's not often you get to see the big guy smiling like that.
It's both frustrating and cool the way Xanatos dupes Derek. You'd think Derek would be more likely to at least investigate the claims of his sister (whom he's known his whole life) as oppossed to a man he's known personally for less than a year. But Derek, in addition to being blinded by rage may be in a bit of denial. Maybe he's still not entirely ready to admit that he was wrong about Xanatos? On the other hand, Xanatos is just that good. Before even mentioning the "placebo" Xanatos reinforces the idea in Derek's mind that Goliath is in cahoots with Sevarius. And Owen of course picks up on it ("It appears Sevarius *left* with Goliath").
There's an animation moment that I really like: when Owen is scanning the computer for labs that Talon might have taken Sevarius to, the readout is reflected in his glasses.
In contrast,an animation moment that bugs me: twice at the clocktower, once while fighting Brooklyn, and again when he's hanging unconcious between Maggie and Claw, Fang is inexplicably replaced with Talon. It just so mars otherwise good moments.
During the fight at the tower, I love it when Brooklyn uses the clock hand to get the jump on Fang. He looks so neat doing that.
On the subject of fights, Goliath and Talon's skirmish in the Labyrinth always puzzles me. Goliath seems to fare pretty poorly in the fight, more than I would have expected from him. I sometimes wonder if maybe Goliath was hesitant to hurt Elisa's brother.
The finale in which Xanatos finally reveals himself to Talon is, without a doubt, one of the highlights of the series. Talon of course has one of those great realizations of betrayal and irony ("I trusted you! You turned me into a monster and I defended you!"). And Xanatos...doesn't gloat, doesn't patronize, he just states simple facts. And then, half-surprised half-cheerful, acknowledges Goliath. This is an antagonist for the ages.
I liked the moment when Maggie was willing to take the potion, and Talon talks her out of it. It's a great individual character & relationship moment. I really enjoy it.
Of course Goliath offers to have the Mutates join his clan. I knew that Goliath would do something like that (again, he's staying true to his personality). I also, already knew that Talon and co. wouldn't be part of the clan proper (from seeing later episodes), but I was still surprised at how the Mutates decided to stick out on their own.
It was pleasant to have a rather upbeat ending in Derek's story for a change. I was glad (and maybe a little surprised) at how the Maza family was able to deal with this change in their son. It's just so good to see such a strong family, I guess.
It was several viewings before I really noticed the open cage at the end and got the symbolism. Regardless, I liked it.
Despite some animation problems, this is a really good episode.

Cristian Alvernaz writes...

Just got finished reading your ramblings on the Gargs episodes. WOW is all I can say, reading those has rekindled what I love about this wonderful show you've given us. I know some of these are a little over due, but they were going thru my mind as I was reading here we go.

UPGRADE- This episode actually kept me up at night the first time I saw it. I, like Dingo, was disgusted emotionally of they wy the pack treated their bodies. Wolf was just physically changed, but Jackal and Hayena were down right freaky, there was very little left that was actually human (I'm guessing Jackal's head and Hayena's torso & head). a reocurring mental image was the garbage bags containing their bodies callously tossed into the GEN-U-TECH dump. Really freaky stuff.Yes, I always had considered Brok the second in command.

HIGH NOON- A personal fav. As was intended, I got that feeling of "whoah, THREE villains!" and continue to feel that way every time I see it, maybe just cause we didn't see Coldstone all that often, and he's one of my favorite characters. Comming off of City of Stone I was baffled as to why Demona and Macbeth were working together, but I came to the conclusion that they were under the control of the Weird Sisters. The "comming battle" line at the end intrigued me, my friend ws baffled by it, even beyon watching Avalon he was expecting some monstrous epic brawl, I feel the line referred directly to their machinations with the Archmage. I feel the toy of Coldstone helps to establish more the re-animated stone cause his actual skin was all cracked, a truly morbid thought indeed! I still the CS toy was the best one released followed by Bronx.

CITY OF STONE- Great episode, but I was put off by the first showing of Macbeth feeling Demona's pain. I didn't gather it, honestly ,I thought it was an animation error the first time. After re-watching it I'm like "ahhhh I get it now , those smart guy have thought of everything!" Also, I took note of Owen recognising the wrong spell, tho it took some time for the payoff, I did catch it.

The Mirror- Another fav. what can I say, it was perfect, I love it when the Gargs use their "extra" limbs for other things, like Demona's tail poking Puck and Goliath's wing in HighNoon. The only thing that was odd to me was when Demona, holding Puck with her wings, hovers into the subway. Upon re-watching I hear the sound effect of Puck hovering her , but I didn't catch this the first time.

Vows- I wish the animation was a liitle better in depicting the difference of older characters than it was, I mena Hudson had the obvious eye thing , y.Demona didn't have the arm jewelry and was thinner, and Goliath was only thinner and happier sounding. No biggie tho. I love how time travel was handled on the show, it always made perfect sence to me, leaving me explaining it to my friends (one of them STILL doesn't understnd how Gryff showed up!) Xanatos was awesome in this one! Fox's dress was reaaalllllyy low cut in the back, that's probably why their clothes were react to as such, she was real close to flashing some behind (not that I'd complain!

EYE OF THE BEHOLDER- I missed this one and cought it next re-run. Was it just me or was the animation during Act2 diferent from Acts 1&3? I liked Xanatos' variation of the armor. I was also shocked that you were able to get away with Fox not wearing anything, really interesting ;]. Of course watching this one in re-run I was spoiled to the notion that the Eye of Odin was important by the Avalon arc, but I would've noticed it anyway, the Edge was my bros' all time fav episode.

Keep em' coming and I'll keep enjoying them. now, because I'm kinda lazy, is Gargoyles 2198 merely an idea that is being pitched around or is it something more? Thanks alot!

Blaise writes...

PROTECTION

I'll be honest and say that this isn't one of my favorite episodes. Of course, in the initial airing that may have largely been the result of not having my favorite garg (Brooklyn) even appearing. And while I have definitely gotten over that, I think I really would have appreciated at least some mention of where the others were at this time (even if only "They're out on patrol...with Bronx").
Even then, there are a few other things that put me off. Broadway's "mobster lingo" for one. I'm sure some may find it humorous, and it is in keeping with Broadway's character, no doubt about that, but I just cringe every time he talks like that. I suppose I may have liked it better if there had been shots of the other characters reacting to it--Dracon and gang looking perplexed, Elisa embarrassed, and Goliath...well, the stoic look works for him.
There were other bits and pieces of dialogue that didn't really work for me, and they usually run along the lines of "stereotypical cops & mobsters" phrases (Elisa and Glasses get a few of that). On the other hand, I don't have any better suggestions for dialogue, so that's how much my two cents are worth.
And chalk me up as another one who didn't think Elisa had gone bad or was a clone (or even suspected that she was being framed--her telling Pal Joey that "Dracon's territory is [her] territory" led me to believe that she was the "lady cop" Glasses had been talking about...a conclusion I had already drawn when Glasses mentioned it).
All that said, this ep has gotten better with age for me, and there are quite a few nice things in it.
Elisa's clothes were a plus. I loved seeing her in something a little more..."fun," I guess you could say.
And while there may have been dialogue I didn't like, there was a fair amount that I did find enjoyable. Most of the one's that you listed, Greg, but also some that I like mostly because of the way the actor's read them:
Elisa: (as Goliath and Broadway attack) "Oh, not now!"
Dracon: (after Elisa has introduced Dracon to the gargoyles) "We've met."
Pal Joey: "Knock out the people, blow up the building: simple." (Gotta love that guyes ease when it comes to mob work.)
There are also some animation moments I like--standouts being Elisa's facial reactions when Dracon drapes his arm around her shoulders, and Goliath's gripping his belt at the end of Act 2 (you don't see him do that often).
Character-wise, the one's that are presented are still enjoyable. Goliath's outrage at the perversion of "protection" was something I didn't fully appreciate until later viewings. For a gargoyle that lives up to the ideals of his people, that's got to be something akin to blasphemy. [Note: I had not read Todd's comments when I wrote this, but I am in full agreement with him here.]
I loved Matt's interaction with Jaffe as well (and I could kick myself for not getting the "tilting at windmills" reference right off the bat). I also smile at how Matt looks in his disguise.
The whole supporting cast is enjoyable. Art and Lois are a nice introductory couple, and I love Art's defiance, how he almost names Dracon, only to be talked down, grudgingly, by Lois. A nice contrast in personalities, and you really feel sorry that their business of 30-years was gone in an instant.
I think Dracon, while not the mightiest of the garg's adversaries, has some enjoyable character aspects. Mostly, his chutzpah (sp?)--in his first appearance he took on Xanatos, here...he pats Goliath on the shoulder (I love G's growl). Glasses and Pal Joey are also unique, each in their own ways. I noticed Dracon's quiet insult to Glasses about how he's obviously not "the man in charge." You highlighted an interesting difference between Dracon and Xanatos, Greg--Dracon treats his henchmen in a fashion closer to a "normal" animated villain. Of course, he doesn't have the normal animated sidekicks--Glasses is more intelligent, and Pal Joey more ruthless. Seriously, Pal Joey really makes an impression here; his attitude during the interrogation, his "professional" demeanor in attmepting to blow up the laundromat, all very cool.
I didn't figure out who the laundromat owners were until after they dropped their act. :)
Dracon getting the drop on Elisa in the general store was a bit of a stretch, but I love that Elisa extricated herself from it and KICKED DRACON'S GANGERSTER @$$! I also loved it when she stuck it to Dracon about his habit of calling her "sugar."
One thing I saw in my first viewing that I really liked was the fact that Dracon's being out of jail was at least brought up. In a show like BATMAN, you don't mind that the villains just appear out on the streets again without an explanation, but in GARGOYLES, Xanatos kind of set a precedent. Bottom line, I was glad that at least some explanation was given for why Dracon was free to run business as usual.
Watching Broadway racing against the bomb's timer is always a nice sequence for me, and it still gets me how he just barely escapes the explosion.
I really liked Goliath's speech to Dracon when he had the jerk in the air. I hadn't really picked up on the clue of Goliath's eyes losing their "anger-glow," but I did find it a neat image all the same.
I also loved Goliath's, "I will protect you, you will protect me, and together we will protect this city." That was a line that really hit me.
As for the whole "Jalapena" thing...eh, it didn't leave too great an impression on me except for Goliath's one at the end. It did make for a cheesy, but somewhat fun way to finish the ep. I hadn't expected it to appear as a curse word throughout the rest of the series. I do agree that the gargs should have found some sort of substitute swear word, but I would have loved something with a more...gaelic (sp?) sound, maybe?
Anyway, while its not at the top of my list, there are things to like in this episode.

Todd Jensen writes...

My "ramble" about "Protection".

I'll admit that this isn't one of my favorite ones (more out of my personal tastes, I suppose, than anything else), although a few parts of it did stand out to me. Especially Goliath's disgust that Dracon would actually call his extortion racket "protection" (and indeed, to him, that misuse of the word would be approaching blasphemy).

Looking back on my "first-time response", I know that I definitely didn't think that the "Elisa gone bad" was a clone (maybe because the story concept here was so obviously a mundane one - Dracon, the most "mundane" of the recurring antagonists running an extortion racket - that such a notion just didn't occur to me). I'm not sure if I thought that it was a frame-up; what I do know is that I was surprised to see Elisa acting that way, and it made sense to me when it turned out that she was just acting. (I noticed that Goliath believed that she'd been placed under a spell - his 10th century upbringing naturally at work again here - but that Broadway made the correct realization almost at once.)

One nice touch during the "acting" scene for Pal Joey's benefit: Chavez mentioning about how Elisa's been acting strange lately - I can't help wondering whether she really was wondering about that at the time. (It certainly had the advantage of making the "acting" less obvious to the audience).

I've occasionally wondered just how much Dave knew about what was really going on when Elisa was visiting him in the pool hall. Did he really believe that Elisa was a crooked cop?

One other favorite part: the bit where Dracon asks Goliath if Elisa's his woman (just goes to show that he may be a crook, but he's not blind), then starts patting him on the shoulder, commenting on how he's got good taste - Goliath glowers at him for that familiarity, and Tony hurriedly retreats. (I can't say that I blame him, but I'm amazed that he was actually daring to pat Goliath to begin with).

Broadway lets out another rude crude belch while helping himself to the jalapena peppers. Though it's the last one that I can recall in the series.

I couldn't help but think that Matt looked almost hopelessly geeky in his grocery clerk disguise. Jaffe's "tilting at windmills" line reminded me of your remark about how "quixotic" is a very good word to describe Matt (I recall that I initially used it in my comments about his pursuit of the Illuminati).

We also find out how Dracon keeps on showing up again in spite of his getting arrested each time in the previous episode - though obviously, in light of his being behind bars at the beginning of "Turf", there are limits to what even his lawyers can do.

It's really great to have the rambles going again. I'm eagerly awaiting the next one.

Blaise writes...

UPGRADE

Ah, yes. The one where Brooklyn officially becomes Second-in-Command and the Pack become (for lack of a better term) bona-fide supervillains.
First off, I'll say that all the animation errors you mentioned, Greg, were eventually corrected--on my tape Fox's lips do move, and Goliath follows in pursuit of the Coyote head (I don't know about the Dingo hitting his head twice thing; never noticed that...or the glitch with the head/full-robot so that reveal still worked for me).
Anyway, when the Pack robs the bank, I kind of felt it was sort of "pathetic" for them as well, and I somehow KNEW Dingo would comment on it in that way. Actually, Dingo always seemed to be a bit distanced from the rest in one way or another. I mean, in his first appearance he didn't leave too much of an impression on me (I couldn't even remember his name), but then he's revealed to have fled to Europe while Jackal and Hyena stayed behind. Then, in LEADER OF THE PACK, he's Coyote's accomplice from the beginning, and the only one besides the robot to take down a gargoyle during the fight at the studio. Here, even in the first Act, Dingo is the one most disgusted with the Pack's current status, the one who figures out how to turn the tide in the beginning battle (which I'll get to in a bit), and, as Hyena points out, the only one to get away with any money. So even before the titular upgrade, Dingo kind of seemed the odd-man out of the group.
The Pack's battle with the gargoyles is interesting to me mostly because of how thoroughly Broadway trashes Jackal. I mean, he claws him across the chest, and then after recovering from a weapon blast, jumps on Jackal, pounds him a few times, and hurls him against the hull of the Pack Attack vehicle. Neat (in a brutal sort of way).
Well, the Pack gets away and a wounded Goliath is taken back to the Clocktower. Here comes the "it's time to choose a second in command" scene. I just knew that Goliath would try to make Hudson that ('cause that just seems like Goliath), but that eventually it would come down to the Trio.
Now, I had read that original comic in the Disney Adventures magazine that came out back in October of 1994, and it literally referred to Brooklyn as Goliath's Second in Command. So I pretty much knew who'd end up getting the job. However, I hadn't paid much attention to Brooklyn's "displays of leadership" before this episode. He really was the de facto leader of the Trio, and this episode does show his leadership capabilities in handling situations.
Back with the Pack...and Coyote. I just loved its nonchalant (sp?), "May I come in?" A robot with style--definite Xanatos style.
One note, despite the difference in appearance I kind of figured that the mutate shown in Coyote's pitch was Talon. I guess he must have gone back to Xanatos by this time.
I never realized before that Owen was absent from this episode. Having read your memo to Gilad, I now understand why that was--as cool as the guy is, he would have been a bit superfluous.
A month passes (which surprised me--the first major jump of time *within* an acutal episode), and while the Trio are away, Goliath and the rest meet up with the new and improved Pack. I was not really expecting what showed up, even with the robot's pitch. Dingo's initial appearance was a surprise, followed by Jackal, who inspired a sort-of "should have known" feeling when he revealed himself as a cyborg. Then Hyena gave me the creeps with her jumping and cackling, and finally Wolf in all his beastiality showed up and pretty much capped off the whole thing. A lot of fun touches here, the line about the Archmage, Hudson's referring to Wolf as a "forest demon," and Jackal's arm revealing a life of its own.
Dingo distinguishes himself even further with his disdain and horror at his comrades (maybe it's because he was the only one with dignity or humanity left, but I really jived with Dingo in this ep).
Coyote appears, bigger and badder than before, and Hyena starts up her infatuation with him again. It is "sicker than usual" as Jackal says, but also a lot of fun.
When the Trio reconnoiter (sp?) at the Clocktower, it always surprised me that Broadway stopped the most crime that night (and he of course follows it up with his modest "Just gotta know where to look"). I don't know why--maybe I'm a closet size-ist (or my "Brooklyn-fan" mind-set was kicking in).
Wolf still has it out for Goliath. This is a very interesting aspect of his character the more that I think about it. More than any other gargoyle, Wolf has singled out the big "alpha male," if you will. I just find it fascinating right now.
Returning to the Trio, we have a (for me at least) fun scene with Broadway zinging Lex's musing, and Fox's fun commercial. I just love the way Laura San Giacomo read that--just as I love Jeff Bennett's "She's talking to us."
It was at about this point that I FINALLY picked up on the "game" X&F were playing. Again, style for the both of them. And even though I noticed the recycling of "the edge" line, it still worked for me. "The edge" seems like something in which Xanatos places great interest.
Brooklyn displays his leadership qualities by his cool-headedness and capable planning (and you just knew Lex was going to try to fly in there right of the bat--hey, it's the Pack!). It didn't hit me until later viewings just how well Brooklyn planned that--divide the enemy's forces, impair their primary sense (vision), and free trapped comrades during the confusion.
The battle itself had some memorable occurances. As strange as Jackal's arm was, Hyena beats him (and the rest of the Pack) in the "unnerving" catagory with the way her fingers bend backward, her leg rotates completely, and her limbs become insectian (is there such a word?--who cares now?). Dingo impresses me yet again by how STRONG his head is. He crashes through the roof without a helmet and is just momentarily stunned.
I actually got that Wolf's features became more feral when he got into a "battle rage" but, yeah, the way it was handled I kind of felt that was just me rationalizing the change than realizing it. Maybe a "morphing" scene would have helped. I don't know.
I love how they take out Coyote. Especially when Goliath crushes the head (that's just that sick, twisted part of me again).
I actually didn't mind Morgan's line. Seemed kind of fun to me. Of course, that just may be the way Kieth David reads it.
Brooklyn is made Second in Command. Are we surprised? No. Are we happy? Speaking as a Brooklyn fan--OH YEAH!
And the Xanatos (or is it Fox) Tag. I love Xanatos' cheer over the fact that Fox is his equal.
"Care to play again?" That line always makes me smile, even if it's only at its sheer audacity.
Personally, I kind of liked that the Pack was "upgraded." I mean, they were tackling "supernatural" creatures, why not even the playing field a little?
I don't know whether you know this or not, Greg, but UPGRADE has become another episode that Toon Disney will not show. I can only guess it's because a building blows up (never mind the fact that it's abandoned, barely taller than five stories, and such a throwaway occurance that it wasn't even brought up in the ramble). I wish they'd just grow up.
Anyway, fun episode.

Todd Jensen writes...

My ramble on "Upgrade".

I'll confess, for a start, that "Upgrade" isn't one of my favorite episodes, due mostly to the fact that it seemed much more like a half-hour "slugfest" than is generally the case with "Gargoyles" (although, given that we're dealing with the Pack here, I suppose it's inevitable - they're not the most subtle antagonists out there, after all). But it had some parts of it that I rather liked.

The transformations of Jackal, Hyena, and Wolf definitely freaked me out. In fact, the first time that I saw this episode, I tried to believe, for a while, that Jackal and Hyena were simply wearing fancy mechanical armor, but the evidence against that was too strong; I had to face the facts, in the end, and realized that they'd become cyborgs. And that definitely chilled me. (In Wolf's case, I didn't even have the option of finding an alternative explanation; it was too obvious that he'd been mutated.) Those three had permanently changed, on the physical level, from what they'd been in "The Thrill of the Hunt". They were no longer fully human. In fact, to me, the real significance of their alterations in "Upgrade" wasn't what you'd pointed out (they need to be upgraded so that it won't be too easy for the gargoyles to take them down - though I did see that there) but rather the way that the three of them were growing less human, their physical transformation being almost an outward sign of their increasing degeneracy.

By contrast, I liked Dingo's refusal to become physically upgraded, and horror at what his teammates had done to themselves. In fact, that was definitely when I began to like Dingo, as opposed to seeing him as just another member of the Pack (as he'd been to me up until then). (It certainly echoed my response to their transformations, which, I suspect, was how most of the audience was similarly responding). I wasn't surprised, therefore, when he was no longer with the Pack in "Grief" afterwards, or when he was shown seeking to "go straight" in "Walkabout". This was definitely the point where we see the "break with Eastcheap" (I chose that particular phrase inspired by your idea of Dingo's real name being Harry Monmouth, and the parallel is definitely there - though I might add that I don't see any of his former Pack-mates being a Falstaff-figure - more on the level of Falstaff's associates like Bardolph or Pistol, perhaps, but not scaling the heights of comic genius of Sir John himself - not that they were meant to.)

We also see the definite introduction (though it'd been hinted at in "Leader of the Pack") of Hyena's interest in Coyote, which has to count as the most bizarre relationship in "Gargoyles"; even Jackal gets nauseated by it, and this is a guy whose idea of a good time is redesigning Goliath's features in his stone sleep.

One side-note: re Hyena's wondering aloud whether gargoyles taste like chicken. I've sometimes wondered why the phrase is "tastes like chicken" as opposed to "tastes like beef" or "tastes like pork", or "tastes like turkey". Just one of life's little mysteries, I suppose.

On the gargoyles' side, we get to see Brooklyn becoming the new second in command. I will admit that I honestly hadn't wondered about that issue until the episode came out. (I've occasionally wondered if Goliath didn't pick one before this episode had anything to do with it having last been filled by Demona, but that's probably a bit of a stretch.) I did think that Brooklyn fitted the role well, and liked the bit at the end where he admits that he's not in that big a hurry to take Goliath's place. And where Goliath offers the role to Hudson, but Hudson declines it.

I still get a kick out of Fox's little public service announcement: "Don't 'Pack' it in. Take the train." Pretty clever of her.

I don't find Officer Morgan's remark that troublesome; in fact, I found it quite amusing.

Incidentally, Xanatos's remark at the end about having found a true equal in Fox reminds me of your analysis of Theseus, where you saw him as having found his equal in the Amazon Queen Hippolyta/Antiope. It makes me wonder whether you'd included a little of your perception of Theseus and Hippolyta in Xanatos and Fox (whether consciously or otherwise). Come to think of it, there's even a slight connection between the two couples, via "A Midsummer Night's Dream".

Zarok writes...

I was reading through the archives and I found posts on the subject of Odin's horned helmet versus the more historically accurate hornless helmets of Hakon and your comments that perhaps the stereotypical vision of Vikings being clad in horned helmets was inspired by the Norse gods rather than Norse mortals and I remembered this bit of trivia you might find interesting, While Vikings never wore horned helmets into battle they were sometimes used in religious ceremonies. At any rate, I loved the design you guys gave to Odin. It's just as I always imagined the big guy. I would have been disappointed if you had given Odin a more earthly Viking look just as much as I would have been Hakon had had horns like Marvel's Loki (how can he stand up with those things?). It just seems pointless to me to debate historical accuracy in relation to supernatural beings, I mean if you say Odin shouldn't have a horned helmet because real Vikings didn't have them you might as well say Anubis shouldn't have a jackal-head because real Egyptians didn't have jackal-heads.

Todd Jensen writes...

Yay! A new episode ramble! Thanks, Greg!

Here are some of my own thoughts about "Double Jeopardy".

The opening one is a rather odd little memory. In the summer of 1995, I spotted an article on "Gargoyles" in a sci-fi magazine (whose name I can no longer remember) discussing what would be done in Season Two; among other things, it included a mention that Goliath's daughter would be introduced into the series. I was quite curious about that, and wondered what she'd be like and how it would be done. And then, when "Double Jeopardy" first aired, and Thailog was treated as Goliath's son in it, I wondered if the article had erred and gotten the gender of Goliath's offspring wrong. (Of course, I know now that it was Angela that the article meant, not Thailog, so that there was no mistake there except on my part.)

In light of the opening flashback, Xanatos must have already started building a whole new set of Steel Clan robots even while he was still in prison, before "The Edge" (especially given that I spotted a whole bunch of those robots in storage, alongside the one that was activated to attack Goliath).

I also liked Owen's "Is this a plan that you've neglected to mention?" line. He really sounded hurt there.

I was interested to notice Renard on Xanatos's suspects list for Thailog's kidnapping, alongside Demona and Macbeth. While I can easily imagine Demona or Macbeth being willing to engage in such a maneuver against Xanatos, I doubt, in light of his rigid code of integrity, that Renard would have done the same (although there is "Golem" to consider, coming up later in the season). Maybe Xanatos believed that the temptation of kidnapping his new gargoyle would have been too much for even his father-in-law to resist.

Sevarius's hamming it up with Xanatos ("Yes! You robbed me of my creation!") was one of the funniest moments in "Gargoyles" for me; certainly the funniest in the episode. (Don't quit your day job, Anton.) And I agree with you about the Dr. Antinori business, by the way. (Also on the subject of Sevarius's overacting, I couldn't help but think that some of his narration in the "clone files" that Lex and Broadway discovered felt almost like a parody of that in a nature documentary, such as the "time for it to leave the nest" line, though I don't know if it was intended that way.)

You no doubt recall how I'd earlier pointed out the similarities between Thailog and Edmund (which I first began to notice after you mentioned Edmund being your favorite Shakespeare character); it occurred to me recently that Thailog also does have a certain similarity to Mordred, especially in many modern-day versions of the Arthurian legend, such as T. H. White. He's Goliath's "illegitimate son", just as Mordred was Arthur's, and his training by his other two fathers, Xanatos and Sevarius, does have (if you're out looking for the parallels) a certain echo of how Mordred, in White's "The Once and Future King", similarly gets trained by his mother Morgause. And the dynamics between Goliath and Thailog, with Goliath initially rejecting his son but then learning that he was wrong to do so, and now reaching out to him - but too late - do remind me of how in White, Arthur similarly initially moves against his son (trying to drown him at birth), but then understands that he was wrong to do so, also makes the attempt to reach out to him, but is coldly rejected by Mordred when he does so. (Come to think of it, Thailog also clearly lusts after both of Goliath's loves, Demona and Elisa, even to the point of combining them in Delilah, just as Mordred lusts after his stepmother Guinevere and attempts to wed her after he usurps his father's throne.)

I've mentioned before the element that I believe makes Thailog an especially great antagonist (the incongruous pairing of Goliath's physical appearance and voice with a thoroughly Xanatosian amorality - though I think that Thailog comes across as more malevolent than Xanatos does, which is also a good touch), so I won't go into that again. It's a bit of a pity that he only turned up twice more in the original series after that ("Sanctuary" and "The Reckoning"), although I suppose that if you'd gotten to do more episodes past "The Journey" that we'd have gotten a lot more of the guy.

The ending definitely surprised me; I was expecting Xanatos to reveal that he'd seen to it that he didn't lose the ransom money after all, but instead we got the revelation that Thailog had escaped with it and is out there, happily scheming away, to Xanatos's own alarm. (As I mentioned before, it's particularly of interest to note that this is the last time in the series that Xanatos attempts to make his own gargoyles - and after the way that Thailog backfired on him, who can blame him?)

It's great to have the rambles going again, and I'm looking forward to the ones to come.

Lacy writes...

Hi, actually this is more of a general ramblin fan letter than a question.

I love gargoyals, and even after all this time I still do.

OH! Though one good question just came to mind (and likely has been asked a million times) Do you plan on ever re-releasing gargoyals as they were in the first two seasons? (not that stupid farce that ABC mangled.) Do you have to wait for any wavers of contracts or has Disney totally bought out all rights to the show so that we never have hopes of seeing it anywere unless they deside to grace us with it (like that would ever happen)

I also noticed that Aladdin the series was in your list of series you did, that was surprising to me, but then again not really, now that I think about it the series had alot of the same feel as gargoyals. (GO MOZENRATH! chee, I'm such a sap for the bad boys)

Gargoyals still holds a strong place in my heart and was definately the first series I ever did fan art, as well as stories about. (Hey I can read,just said I did it, not giving nothing here, nor do I want to. They just fun stuff for me personally anyway.)

Puck is definately my favorite charactor, and it was a huge disapointment to me, my little sister and our circle of friends who are all fans when he wasnt even given an apearence in that chronicals series. (well other than as Owen) So much got crammed and cliche'd in that series, BLEH gotta get off it >.<

Anyway, love the details and developement of the charactors, they all were so believeable and real. The series touched imagination and feeling as no show has, it wsn't just animation as america treats it, but a true series, like Babyalon 5 and StarTrek series. It is the exsample I use most often in arguements for animation used as another form of filming rather than just entertainment for children.

I really hope to see more someday.

OH!!!! End question!!! Did you ever write out how you planned the series to go? If so, did you ever put them to the web? If so... CAN I SEE?!!!!!

sniffer writes...

I'm trying to find pictures,drawings,or paintings of gargoyles. That I might use for a tatto.

Anonymous writes...

How can I petition Disney studios?

Rusty writes...

sorry for the typos...it's 3:06 pm and i have been up since yesterday trying to draw that stuff on note book papper don't worry i make sure you get all the credit for the people that belong to you.as long as i can use them.

Rusty writes...

hey greg..if i where to use your Charchters in a comic/ or anime some time in the future maybe would it be alright? i am asking you because you drew it and at frist i wanted you to sue me but...i was told you didn't do a copy right on it so disney owns it,thats ok disney can sue me :) they wont get nothing though, the reason i am asking you is cuz you drew them so in my eyes you are the orginal owner of the whole thing. thanks if your reading this (cuz i probly will just use them anyway lol) and sorry for takeing your time

DTorline@aol.com writes...

Not a question, or a suggestion (really!), just a quick comment. For your example of What Not To Ask (point #2), you use "Asking if Demona tried to assassinate Hitler during World War II". I'd just like to say that based on my knowledge of Demona, she'd've been more likely to have been fighting on his side, assuming she was involved at all.

Roxz writes...

Sorry if something is spelled wrong!

Foxy writes...

I think that Gargoyles do really exist and Greg do you agree
with me yes or no?

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Here's a should not have but couldn't resist:

"Greg Bishansky writes...
Happy Rosh Hashanah Greg. Though it may be closeto Channukah when you read this.

Greg responds...

It's past Purim. Pushing Passover. (Pretty pathetic, huh?)

But thanks!

recorded on 03-04-02"

"Pushing Passover"? Is this some knew social problem that will soon hit the newspapers?: "We just don't know how it happened! One day he steps into a synogogue, and the next he's pushing Passover! What are we going to do with 4 extra sets of dishes!? And the whole family has indigestion from all that matzah!"

Of course it'll probably be Succot before you get to this one :)

sorry about the lack of (relevant) question

The Cat writes...

Replying to Sep 12/Feb 14 Q&A.

Hey Greg,

As usual I'm stressed about college, since it is my first semester and all. Otherwise I'm well.

I'm glad Thom is okay. I haven't heard from Jeff in a while either. The last time was after Christmas, he sent me a card.

I'm not sure if ya'll be seeing me at the Gathering. It might happen it might not.

It is that whole question of: Can I kidnap my best friend, throw her into the trunk of the car and race head long to Virginia, while avoiding getting into a wreck and the cops? My answer to this question: I don't think so. Puck(don't ask me why she calls herself Puck, I haven't a clue.) is bigger than me and weighs more. Also, I don't trust myself behind the wheel of a car I just started learning how to drive.

It is also a question of: How well have I saved up money to go and whether or not I can sneak out of the house to go because much as I love my mom and tollerate my little brother, I'd like to go by myself or with just a friend.

So, I'll see what I can do. You'll know if I'm there I'll probably bug you the first day I get there.

Bye, The Cat

P.S. I know that you've said that we should make different posts for different topics and I guess this would be a multiple topic thing, but I'm replying to your reply so I figured just to post them all in the same area.

Choa!

AngelOfTheNight writes...

Hi Greg,
No question, just comment. I too was a big fan of Batman, untill "Gargoyles" came onto the scene. I was hooked instantly. I feel that "Gargoyles" far surpassed Batman, in animation, characters, storyline, etc. My favorite character is "Demona". I very easily connect with her, (scary as that is..) I understand her. My all time favorite episode is of course, "City of Stone". It is a work of art in every sense of the word. Thank You for the episodes that we all find so entertaining, and may all your future endeavors bring you the success you so richly deserve.

Laura 'ad astra' Ackerman writes...

Not a question- just a comment:

I saw a notice on SciFi.com that the latest Starship Troopers DVD was coming out (February). I took a look at it and the other three on Amazon.com. They are a fangirl's ideal! Episodes + lots of comentary (from recognizable names :) + behind the scenes. Now if I could only afford them... oh well, next career.

Still, somebody must be in a profitable profession. If "Amazon.com sale rank" means what I think it does two of the DVDs are among the ~50 and ~60 most common ordered things today. (or were in February)

Between that and noticing Disney has put a little link next to some of the Gargoyles tapes to say "I'd love to see this in DVD form" I think things bode well for a DVD release here too.

Samantha writes...

Dexter writes...
Hey Greg,
Call me stupid, but I've seen the pilot "Awakening" several times and I still do not follow the plot! I'm such an idiot. Ok, why did Xanatos got through all that trouble to wake up the Gargoyles just to have them steal disks? Then he used to information on them to makes the Steel Clan, what's the point of that? So now instead of real gargoyles, he had robotic ones. Doesn't make sense. Also, when Goliath and Elisa were attacked in central park, Elisa said she traced the logo back to Cyberbiotics, which Mr. X owned. So does that mean his own people stole disks from him and then he went and restole them back from his own people? Ah! It confuses me. Please clear me up, I've been meaning to ask you about this plot, and now I finally had time to. Thanks!

I can answer part of that! Xanatos did not steal back his own disks. They were from another company, the company that Fox's father owned. Xanatos faked a robbery to make the gargoyles think that when he told them about the disks they were his, when nothing had ever really been stolen from him.
He used the gargoyles to steal these disks to upload his steel clan. By using the Gargoyles, no one would ever suspect him. No one even knew what Gargoyles were I think.
Once he got the stolen disks, he was able to load up his
steel clan, which meant he no longer had a name for the clan.
Since they would be too hard to control, he decided to test his new clan on them. And I'm sure you know the rest. I hope this helps.

Todd Jensen writes...

This is something of a musing that I've been pondering for some time about your hinted-at plans to bring Prospero (and other characters from "The Tempest") into "Gargoyles" (it's more a ramble than a genuine question, actually). I was not the least bit surprised by your mention, when you first started up "Ask Greg", to include Prospero in "Gargoyles" somewhere; after all, a series that had already made use of "Macbeth" and "A Midsummer Night's Dream" in its framework would obviously have to bring "The Tempest" in somewhere as well. What I do find myself wondering, from time to time, is the role that Prospero (and Ariel and Caliban as well, if they were to show up - and it's obvious that they would also) would have played in the series, in relation to the other characters.

Because I noticed that the other major Shakespearean characters (Macbeth, Puck, the Weird Sisters, Oberon, and Titania) were actually made an important part of the framework of "Gargoyles", linked up strongly to the central and near-central characters. Macbeth and the Weird Sisters were part of Demona's story (explaining, in particular, how she survived from 994 down to the present day). Oberon, Titania, and Puck were part of Xanatos's story (or Titania at least as Fox's mother and Puck as Owen's true identity, not to mention that Oberon and Titania's attempt to kidnap Alex was what led to the end of the feud between Xanatos and the gargoyles). From this, I believe that we can safely presume that, when Prospero, Ariel, and Caliban would have shown up somewhere in the series (if it had only lasted that long), they would have likewise had strong links with the major characters in the series as part of the framework.

I won't ask what those links were, of course (I know that you don't want to reveal that yet, at least, not in this forum), but that's one reason why a part of me still hopes that you can find some way of continuing "Gargoyles" some day; I'd certainly enjoy finding out when/if that happens just where Prospero, Ariel, and Caliban fit into the Gargoyles Universe, and which major figures in the series they are linked to, at least initially (of course, everybody tends to wind up getting linked to everybody else anyway - Puck with Demona in "The Mirror", the Weird Sisters,Oberon and Titania with the Avalon clan, Macbeth with King Arthur, etc.)

Jimmy_Q writes...

I recently skimmed through you smart-ass responses and I ran in to this question from matt: ok, a beast generally lays more than three eggs in a lifetime. and you are being difficult (as always) and not being very specific... ok, we know that beast mature and can mate a generation before other gargs, and we know that beast live about the same length of time that other gargs do, but can beast continue having children after other gargs stop? if not then garg beast can have about 4 eggs, if so, they could have alot of eggs, i think.
so, how many eggs can a female garg beast generally lay?
you responded: The world may never know.
(That smart-ass response was a reference to an old tootsie-pop commercial. Anyone old enough to remember it has my sympathy.)
I'm quite familiar with that commercial and I'm only 20, so I guess that makes me old, huh? And to think I used to feel so young and virile, too...

Jess writes...

Hey...where did you go???? Holiday?
Have a good time? Happy new year.

Upset fan writes...

Hi Greg,
First of all let me just say, i have been a huge fan of gargoyles since it came out in the UK. I waited all week for it to come on on saturday mornings and collected all the gargoyles toys i could with my pocket money :D Unfortunatley it was taken off air some years ago after "City of Stone part 4". I have now got toon disney and have managed to watch the series as much as possible.But there is a REALLY annoying problem, and im not sure you will be able to answer my question, but if so...here goes!

WHY ON EARTH do they stop gargoyles after the avalon episodes and go right on to the goliath chronicles?! Its maddening!! I have looked all over the web and seen all the episodes i have missed out on :(((
I have also watched clips from some of the episodes and they look soooo cool!!!

Diego writes...

Why don't you throw a brick through Eisner's window, then when he looks at the brick, he sees it's not a brick, but a small statue of Goliath. Then he'll have no choice but to bring back the show.

Vanity writes...

Punchinello and yourself discussed "sententiousness" in quite lenghty detail. If I remember right the main buckling of the topic of one's being sentient was ultimately his ability to communicate ideas. I don't seem to remember any talk about awareness of thought and decision.
If a Russian speaker was adopted into your household, and could not understand nor speak a single word of English, you cannot communicate with him on any level of aphroristic expression (if you infact cannot speak Russian). In fact the communication would very much be like that between man and an animal. When he wants a drink and says (whatever in Russian means 'I want to drink your water'); you will overtime perhaps reckognize what he wants through mere repitition. Never though be able to ask him if he liked the water, describe the compositional qualities that make up the glass, or how the purification system(s) in your water plant makes that water safe for you and your family to drink. You can say it he won't know it.
Yet he can still make the moral judgement on his own princibles that he understands in his own language as to if he will leave the toilet seat up or not. His sentience is still very much intact as is yours, but in communication most of what we consider humanesque intelligible relay of thought is lost.

He can learn but he may not learn English just as you can but may not learn Russian. Words are words, but diction, structural differences, and phonetic discrepencies between the two languages make changing your thinking process from thinking as an Englishmen(English speaking man not man born on England) to thinking as a Russian quite likely impossible. Even if you learn Russian as to be able to go to Moscow and fool everyone into thinking that you are indeed a native Russian. Your nueral networking will still under most serious probability process thought in English just, as it does; it will translate that process to Russian in a fashion quite like my thoughts now are magically appearing in this post box thingy by mere change of production from thought to text by fingur relay in the procession from mind to hand to finger to keyboard to computer to eventually cyber-wherever. I do not think like a keyboard or a computer yet I can communicate using one but only in the language I am prepared to use it with.

Gargoyles as well can type on keyboards and relay thought. Lexington with very little experience in terms of years and could only practice at night, was able to punch a keyboard judging by the "clicking" sound of the keyboard at nearly 129 words per minute, without looking and locate Coldstone in MacBeth's mansion. Quite impressive really. Yet his thoughts were in English. (note if you were in Madrid when you first seen Gargoyles and they spoke in Spanish and of course you did too you might argue they thought in Spanish and you would most likely be right mi amigo). But not as an English Man but and English Gargoyle again not as a nationality but as a tongue. Still Lex's moral judgements can be made too stand on thier own and can communicate with anything Man or Gargoyle or Oberon's Child that also speaks English, whether they think "English" or not.

Language is not merely a tool for communication it is a way of thinking Eskimos have something like seven words that really just mean "snow". Yet an Eskimo thinks like an Eskimo and can judge the minor differences in the type of snow they see and to them one kind of snow is not "a" snow but a "d" snow and ect..

Luckily for us I suppose that as humans we all relatively think alike even with our differing way of thinking. The means of production are different but the product is still the same. This allows for learning multiple languages each human no matter his language that language has the ability to "learn" or adapt to the use of another language and that is quite a remarkable thing. Almost too remarkable to be chance.

I don't have the full answer, just what I feel like that (and as arrogantly as I can feel it) that I know what perhaps I know or don't know and go with that by fusing it with things that I learn or that are revealed to me by you and others who post and participate. I very much enjoy this site and the people who participate it is so cool, this is the greates fandom in the world.