A Station Eight Fan Web Site
Hello Mr. Weisman,
You've shared some of the pitches for Gargoyles spin offs such as Dark Ages and 2198 without potentially spoiling anything if they ever get a shot at being made. Would you ever do the same with the bibles for Spectacular Spider-Man and Young Justice? That would make for fun reading, but if they contain anything you wouldn't want judged out of context it's understandable why not.
I'm not ruling out the possibility.
Hi Greg -- thanks so much for taking time to answer fan questions like this! I have been a fan of your work since the 90s and Ask Greg is an amazing resource.
My question is: Back in the 10th century, did Brooklyn have a girlfriend or female clan mate he was close to romantically?
Not a question, but a comment. I was watching "Temptation" again, and when Demona first approaches Brooklyn she has this line "wasn't this like old times, fighting together side by side, comrades in arms..." and I have to say, kudos. Thanks to "Tyrants" and "The Gate" there so many more layers upon layers to that line especially. I could be wrong, but I never got the impression that they knew each other all that well prior to the massacre, so I used to wonder if the reference was generic or if she was just trying to make an appeal. Now, well... now the context of the line has changed, and for the better.
I don't know if the idea for their team up against Constantine existed in your head way back when "Temptation" was written, but I love moments of creative serendipity.
It didn't way back when, but I ALSO think they fought side-by-side in the past from Brooklyn's POV. Keep in mind there's YEARS of adventures in GARGOYLES: DARK AGES.
Will you make a Dark Ages comic books spin off??? I would like to know more about the lives of the Gargoyle characters. And by the way, I watched young justice and I enjoyed it! I can't wait till the series comes out in January!
I"d love to do a Dark Ages comic book spin off. But right now we don't have a publisher.
This discussion has been had in Station Eight a few times, and I thought I would bring it up here. It seems to me like one could make a case that Demona is the lead character in the greater story of the GARGOYLES UNIVERSE.
If one looks at "Dark Ages," "Gargoyles," and "Gargoyles 2198" as a three act story, Demona's story is the one story arc that really plays out through the entire timeline. She is there for all three acts.
Yes, Goliath is the lead in "Gargoyles" and Samson is the lead in "Gargoyles 2198." I think Hudson is the lead in "Dark Ages," but I might be wrong. And they all play huge roles, crucial roles. But Goliath and Hudson are not in Act Three, and Samson is not in the first two acts.
Demona, without being the lead in any of the acts, is the constant presence. Sure, she may not appear in "Pendragon," "New Olympians," Heroes of Ulster," and may only have a small role in "TimeDancer" and "Bad Guys." But if "Gargoyles" is the center of the universe here, and "Dark Ages" and "2198" are both acts in that story, it almost makes me wonder if this is really her story. You've got her youth, her fall from grace, her time as the main antagonist (or one of them), and then her eventual redemption.
Not to take anything away from Goliath, because I definitely agree that "Gargoyles" is his story and that he is the most pivotal character in that series. But is his story a large piece of her story?
I'm not saying it's all about her, because it's not. I don't think that or feel that, because this is all one huge ensemble piece made up of many stories, but like I said, she seems to be the most constant character out of all of them in the Big Picture. And all without ever being THE LEAD in any of the "three acts."
It's definitely an interesting theory.
Of course, I don't actually view the Gargoyles' Universe as any one character's story, including Goliath. To me it's a tapestry with many threads...
But I'm not disagreeing per se.
I have to ask, are Dragons real life creatures in the world of Gargoyles? And if they are, do they get the 'Gargoyle Treatment', like they are/were noble creatures or were they chaotic evil creatures?
And what would said dragons look like? European, Chinese, Japanese?
Well, we saw a dragon in the "Pendragon" episode. And one is visible in the Dark Ages pitch.
Since Bronx would not have even hatched yet when Dark Ages starts, did you have any plans to feature another gargoyle beast or two among the main cast of that spinoff?
We would have -- over time and episodes -- populated the clan with gargoyles and beasts of each generation.
What was your involvment with Chip 'N' Dale Rescue Rangers and Darkwing Duck?
On Chip, I was an executive in current programming, who gave notes on all scripts... i.e. not much.
On Darkwing Duck, I was part of Tad Stones' development team. I'm pretty sure I came up with the name Goslyn. Afterwards, I was again giving notes on scripts, etc... this was the series I trained on in development.
Will you ever tell who Tom's father is in the comic books or in a TV show if you made one? If so, would it be in GARGOYLES or in one of the 5 spin-off shows?
Thank you for your time.
Eventually, I'd get to everything. This might happen in Dark Ages, but a Gargoyles flashback or even a TimeDancer episode might get us there first.
Have you thought of how you would handle traditional gargoyle namelessness should you make "Dark Ages"?
I've thought about it a LOT. Probably won't make a final decision until I'm forced to. (The same was true about what to do about the Goliath Chronicles.)
Was Demona truly the best candidate for the job of Goliath's second-in-command pre-Wyvern Massacre?
He thought so. At least at the time. You can't deny she's a fierce warrior.
Did Hudson have a second before Goliath? if so, who?
I'm not revealing that now.
What was Hippolyta like? Why did she have a name when most other gargoyles didn't?
Hyppolyta no more had a name than Othello, Desdemona and Iago had names. "Hyppolyta" is a designation for us poor humans.
You've said that Hudson had a young daughter, a generation down from Broadway, that was a child when the clan was smashed. What was she like?
I'm not revealing this at this time.
ok have u written any fanfics?(cause im a bit confused in the matter) and if so what are the titles of them and were can i find them?(i have never really found a fanfic i hear people talk about) r u planing to use any fanfics u wrote 4 episodes in future gargoyles seasons(if that ever happens. hopefuly it will) or will u consiter ever useing fanfics from other fans (if u think it will work well in the series that is)?
I guess I have written a couple of fanfics...
You can find one here: http://www.angelfire.com/rings/katsaris/brothers.htm
And the other here: http://www.s8.org/gargoyles/askgreg/search.php?rid=497
These are both Dark Ages pieces, and I'd incorporate them if and when the time came. Maybe in the comic book. Or rather definitely in the comic book eventually, given enough issues.
lets assume that you were given the rights and blessings to write and publish a novel based on Gargoyles. what would be your first choice to write the novel about? would it be one of the prequels, sequels or spinoffs or do you have another story in mind? what story would you most like to tell?
I have so many stories fighting for attention in my head gargoyle-wise. Really. It's one of the hardest things about the comic book. Deciding what to tell first.
But if the project were a novel, I'm starting to think that my first choice would be "Dark Ages".
For some reason (witness "Three Brothers" and the recent snippet from "Hyppolyta"), I seem to think of Dark Ages in prose terms.
But ultimately, I find hypotheticals like this pointless. In real life, no decision is made in this kind of vaccuum. I'd relish the chance to do a novel -- any novel -- set in the gargoyles universe.
It's not like I have copious amounts of free time. I really, really don't. But I do seem to have a near endless desire to procrastinate. So I wrote this. It's the START of something... stylized. Might someday use it in the comic or something. I dunno.
Anyway, it's called "Hyppolyta".
This was why she loved him. (She could use that word now, with herself at least, even if she had never said it aloud, had never said it to him -- let alone to friends and family or anyone else.) Not for the world-saving and the other heroics. That was why she admired him to no end. But she didn't love him for being a comic book character. She loved him, ironically, for being human.
It all started yesterday evening. After sundown. She had stopped by to see him before her shift began. He had wanted to go with her, to watch over her from above. But she didn't need protection nearly as much as he did right now. In fact, she didn't need protection period. He had growled at her in frustration, and she had more or less growled back.
She was in a bad mood all night, which didn't escape the notice of her partner. He took her sullen silence in stride, but as their shift ended he said, "Talk this out before your next tour. I don't need to suffer through another guy's silent treatment."
So she drove back to the skyscraper. Used her pass-key for the private elevator. She stomped up the steep stone circular steps and found him there. Staring out into what remained of the night.
She was ready to do battle. But he was quiet and reserved. He simply wanted to tell her a story…
He had been new to command, new to giving orders. The elders understood this and let him learn, let him make his mistakes, offering guidance privately. And his younger charges were impressed enough by his size and strength and office to follow him blindly. Then there was his… his newly named Second-in-Command. She had wanted this for him (and in hindsight probably for herself). So in those early days, she offered unconditional support to his authority.
But his peers… his brothers, his sisters…
He described one of these sisters, one of his many sisters. Tall, strong. Light brown skin, bald head and two sets of brow ridges that ran from just above her eyes to just behind her pointed ears. A warrior. She had never been one to listen much, even before he had been promoted. Now the situation had grown intolerable. If he said glide left, she'd glide right on her burnt-red wings, seemingly just to spite him. They had exchanged few words, just a growl here and there. Most of the actual heat was between this sister and his Second.
He could hear them fighting, almost every night.
"Where does this contempt stem from? You have never fought with him like this before."
"Before, he was simply my brother."
"Now, he is your leader."
"He has no more training than I do. He's never proven himself a more able warrior. Granted he's strong. But I'm not even sure he's that bright."
"He has discipline. Something you lack. And a vision for taking care of us all. Human and Gargoyle alike."
"Do you wish to share that vision with the rest of us?"
As he climbed the stairs, he knew it was time to fight his own battles. "Come with me," he said to his sister. "I will share it."
His voice startled them both. It was the one gift he knew he had at his command. His voice demanded respect, even if the words that came out of his mouth did not.
But she recovered quickly, and he saw the heat flash across her face. That spur-jerk reaction to defy him. But it passed. He had issued a challenge of a sort, and she was no coward.
She crossed before him to the battlements, her wings flaring off from her shoulders and right into his face. "I will come."
He bit down on his frustration and extended his own wings. She extended a wing-arm in mock courtesy, deigning to allow him to lead the way. He launched himself off the castle and heard her do the same. She didn't stay behind him for long, pulling abreast with a skeptical glance, waiting, he supposed, for her leader 'to share'.
He didn't speak. There was nothing he could say. They were the same age, nearly to the minute. She was a fine strong warrior. Fierce in battle. She was not unintelligent. And truth be told, he was no more convinced than she was that he had been the right choice to lead the Clan.
None of that was really the point.
He had been chosen. He trusted his predecessor, if not himself. And he would lead. He would find a way. Even with this sister...
To be continued... maybe... someday....
If you make The Dark Ages prequel, will it be on TV or go straight to DVD?
I'm open to either, but at this point, I'd say the odds lean toward it being a comic book mini-series to start with... if and when.
I have some questions about the way gargoyles were treated by the law over the time.
1)Were they treated equal to humans under...
a)Prince Malcolm's rule.
b)Princess Katharina's rule.
c)Anywhen in the future... maybe through the miniority status they have in 2198
To be extreme, would a human be punished for killing a gargoyle(or a gargbeast) as a garg would be for killing a human?
2)What is the position to the clan leaders(Goliath for example) to this? After all it is their right in the clan to judge about the different clan members.
If you're looking for specific codification in the past, you're not going to find it.
1a. I'd say they were generally treated better under Malcolm's rule.
1b. They were tolerated, barely.
1c. The future's yet to to come. But they received some protections under the previously mentioned Gargoyle Minority Protection Act.
I assume you're asking whether or not a human would be punished BY HUMANS for killing a gargoyle or whether a garg would be punished BY HUMANS for killing a human. As you may know, I'm not big on hypotheticals. But to cut to the chase, things were dark in the Dark Ages. Things are theoretically more "civilized" in the future. But "civilized" does not necessarily equate with "justice".
2. I'm not sure what you're asking here.
So, if the only Scottish Gargoyle with a proper name is the leader (i.e. Goliath) and Hudson was the leader before Goliath, what was his name?
Honestly, I haven't decided (though I have some candidates in mind). But I wouldn't assume definitely that what applied in Goliath's day would also apply in Hudson's.
Hi Greg! I'm posting for the first time and it feels wierd, since I tried to send questions 4 or 5 years ago and they got deleted. Anyway...
First of all, I'd like to thank you for having been (and still being) such an important part of the Gargoyles franchise. You (and others of course) provided me with easily THE single best animated show ever. A well written series great voice acting, continuous plots, characters that are believable, and a complex universe that manages both to include lots of existing legends and myths while still retaining a distinct identity. I truly think that in terms of all-around quality for a dramatic show, Gargoyles was easily Disney's best effort by far. Reboot is the only other animated show that I've seen that seems to exhibit the same qualities, meaning well-written, clever and quite enjoyable for both kids and adults.
Also, I'm happy to learn that Gathering 2004 will take place in Montreal, meaning I might actually be able to attend! I don't know if you're the one who chose the location, but if you are, thanks on behalf of us Canadians!
Finally, I'd just like to thank you for actually answering the flood of questions we fans send your way. And especially your god-like patience towards people who obviously never took the time to read the FAQ OR archive. I can understand asking about a minor detail that could have been missed, but among the questions being submitted, I know there are some LAZY people I wouldn't mind slapping once or twice in the face...
Anyway, I have a number of questions on different subject, so expect a few one-question posts from me.
This one would fit in a "Writing" category if there is such a thing.
1. Regarding your current master plan (i.e. your ideas for the various spin-offs), it's obvious you've given lots of thoughts to the initial setting of each. The main characters and their immediate goals for example, as well as ideas for early stories as well as a few ideas for on-going plots. A lot of course would be dictated by the characters (and your muse I'm sure) as the shows would go along.
a) Now here's my question: Do you have an idea about the possible endings of some of your spin-offs? I don't want you to tell me anything, just if you have some "Ultimate goals" in mind for all your spin-offs.
Gargoyles itself has always been very open-ended. There never was a single overlying theme to the series, it just kept going on on its own, the plots and characters growing in complexity in a very organic and sometimes unpredictable way. It could potentially keep going on for years and years.
But some of your spin-offs have very specific premises. There ARE stories that are better told if planned from beginning to end as a whole. Others however are better if left to evolve on their own. An aimless story could potentially "find its voice" after a while, leading to an ultimate ending of sorts. Or, the initial premise could be transformed over time, leading the story in a quite different direction.
For example, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Initially, the show is about our heroes trying to restore a people (Bajorans) to a stable society following years of occupation by an enemy race (Cardassians). Yet, after two years, the show introduced a much bigger menace, a race who sought to conquer and control all others (the Dominion). From then on, the show eventually lead to a huge war with the ending signaling the end of the hostility.
a) How do you feel about long stories? About those that are open-ended and those that have some finality set for them? (I hope I'm not being to vague here. I'm really interested in how you feel about this)
And about some specifics spin-offs:
b) Bad Guys: The basic idea is about our main characters seeking redemption. Do you know if they ever find it? And would that be the goal of the show?
c) TimeDancer: Ultimately, the very final ending is, in a way, already known. Brooklyn makes it home a lot older with a family. But do you already have some sketchy idea about how he finally makes it there, like some final adventure dealing with the Phoenix Gate itself, or were you planing on dealing with it once you were forced to, like a series' finale?
c) Gargoyles 2198: This one seems to be mostly about the war against the Space-Spawn but as you often say, "Things aren't that simple". Would the liberation of Earth signal the end of the series, or would you keep the series going with the existing setting once the war is over? After all, there might still be other threats like Coyote-X, the Illuminati, etc.
d) Dark Ages: Since this one could theoretically run up to the beginning of "Awakening", I won't ask if you have an ending in mind.
e) Pendragon: It's obvious now that Merlin, Mr. Duval and Holy Grail would be important part of the story. Do you have an ending in mind for this one, or where you again planing on seeing where the story ultimately took you?
f) New Olympians: This one feels pretty generic, and feels like it could run forever like Gargoyles. The ultimate goal I suppose would be the acceptance of New Olympus by humanity, but judging by the response toward gargoyles, wouldn't likely fit within an entire series, no matter how long it might be. Still, got an ending in mind, even if it's pretty open-ended, like "Hunter's Moon pt.3"?
Thanks a lot for answering.
Well, time delay means that I believe we met in Montreal (and, no, I didn't choose the location -- I don't make those decisions). You played Lex in the radio play, right?
1a. Some yes, some no. I know where Dark Ages ends -- with "Awakening, Part One". I know where "TimeDancer" ends... right where it began. I have a VERY good idea of how the Space-Spawn thing is resolved, but I don't think that necessarily marks the end of 2198. And likewise, I don't have a firm ending for Pendragon, Bad Guys or the New Olympians... but I have a good idea where I want to go with the first major arcs. As for Gargoyles itself -- that would end in 2198.
1a) [You had two (a)s.] Some stories -- whether long or short -- need closure. They're one-shots... no matter how long they last. Others can be open-ended. I lean toward the latter personally... because life is ongoing -- even after individuals die. But I respect the other form as well.
b) I'm not going to reveal whether or not they find redemption, but yes that's the goal. The thing is... even if I were to redeem all the original cast, the concept can survive them. And new characters may be introduced that give us a reason to continue. I will say, that I wouldn't be shy to bring a series to an end if I had no more stories to tell. That just has never happened to me within the Garg Universe. Not yet anyway.
c) See above for confirmation of your basic thesis. But I have a fairly clear general idea of how the whole dance, including the finale choreographs. But I won't pretend I have all forty years worth of adventures planned out to the last detail. I don't.
c) [You had two (c)s, as well.] See above. The war doesn't end the series.
d) See above.
e) I have endings in mind for some of the arcs that I plan to set in motion. But even the ultimate death of Arthur himself (which I was not planning anytime soon) might not end this series. I have at least one significant idea to go beyond Arthur...
f) Same deal. I have specific arcs in mind, and I have a solid idea of how they end. But I doubt that they wouldn't lead to more stories. If in fact they didn't and I was out of juice there, I'd shut it down.
Are the Timedancer, Dark Ages, and other such stories from another site, have anything to do with the orignial show?
Second, I have read several questions that mention future tense stories, are they on TV or where?
Thank you for your time and consideration with putting up with our questions. It is appreciated.
There may be fanfiction sites that have used the tidbits I've revealed, including plans for "TimeDancer", "Gargoyles: The Dark Ages", and "Gargoyles: 2198" (formerly known as "Future Tense"), among other spin-offs. But I've never read any of them.
None of this stuff has appeared on television.
Hi Greg! I've been skimming through these questions about the Coldtrio and a preqeul called "The Dark Ages" comes up quite a few times. And I was wondering....since it was never made to be a TV show do you think it'll ever be made into a DVD or video? I think you and your co-workers would get a TON of money from old gargoyle fans if you did. I mean you could introduce new gargoyles and focus more on the totally awesome Coltrio!!! Just a thought, please at least THINK about it....! thanks!
I have thought about it. A lot. But I have, so far, had no success in convincing Disney. Still trying though. I haven't given up. But if you want to PROVE to Disney that there's money to be made on Gargoyles, try buying the DVD.
Have you ever thought of a sequel or prequel to gargoyles?
Yes. The prequel is called GARGOYLES: THE DARK AGES.
The sequel is called GARGOYLES 2198.
For more info on either, check out the ASK GREG archives.
Hey Gregg, I'm new to this site, and I was just wondering... is there something I missed about Gargoyles? I mean, I know of Gargoyles, and The Goliath Chronicles, but was there some other Gargoyle show that aired after?
What lies ahead for Gargoyles? Do you plan on bringing them back to the air at some point? I'd really like to see some new Gargoyles cartoons....
There were proposed spin-offs, sequels and prequels, including
Gargoyles: The Dark Ages
The New Olympians
plus plenty ideas just to continue the "Gargoyles" series itself.
I haven't been able to convince Disney to do any of these things.
But who knows?
"Firefly" was dead. It sold a TON of DVDs and now they're making a movie, "Serenity". "Family Guy" was dead. It sold a TON of DVDs and now they're making new episodes.
Up until this year, the best single way you could help relaunch the show in some way, shape or form was by attending the Gathering, our annual convention. That's still true. So if you haven't heard, check out this year's con at their website:
The good folks at Walt Disney Home Entertainment took notice of the fandom, largely thanks to these conventions. They'll be attending this year with a video crew to tape footage of the con to put on the Gargoyles DVD, to be released later THIS year (2004!).
The DVD will contain all 13 episodes of the series' first season, complete and uncut. It will also have a commentary track and other extras (in addition to the con footage) that are still being discussed.
If you want to see the 2nd Season on DVD, and if you want to see Disney make more Garg Universe materials, there's no better way to get them to take notice than by buying the DVD. If the fans demonstrate an audience with disposable income, Disney will respond. It's not far-fetched. It's happened before.
My thoughts on "Avalon Part One".
First off, a little about the eggs. I honestly hadn't expected to see anything further with the eggs at this point. The reason was that I'd always assumed that the eggs were indeed all gone, as Xanatos had claimed in "Awakening Part Two", even after we found out what he was really like, for this simple reason: the thousand years between the Wyvern Massacre and the Awakening. Since I didn't think it likely that gargoyles live naturally for a thousand years, my assumption always was that the eggs had hatched long ago and that the gargoyles that had hatched from them had grown up, lived out their lives, and died long before as well. I hadn't taken into account the possibility of a place where time moved slower.
(Of course, thinking over it some more, I should have expected the eggs to return, simply because, if they weren't going to, their inclusion to date would have been almost pointless. After all, they'd had no real impact on the storyline in "Awakening" - the mere fact that the video version was able to edit them out is proof enough of that - so that would have to mean that something further with them would have to be done, or else why include them in "Awakening" at all?)
Regarding your multi-parter comments: I also prefer it when the first episode of a multi-parter clearly labels itself as "Part One". That way, I'm already prepared for the "To Be Continued" part. So I'm glad that you always labeled the multi-parters as such.
I was a bit amused to notice the Brigadoon alternative to Avalon, in light of the fact that you did manage to use Brigadoon as the Avalon-substitute in your "Gargoyles meet Captain Atom" story. And, yep, I was definitely looking out for King Arthur to show up at some point in this story, given that the thing that Avalon is most famous for is being his resting-place. (More about that in my ramble on Part Two when it comes).
Needless to say, I enjoyed the flashback. More 10th century Scotland! And more real Scottish history! In some ways, it was even more fun than the Macbeth backstory in "City of Stone"; after all, I already knew about the historical Macbeth before "Gargoyles" ever came out, but I'd never heard of Kenneth II and Constantine III before. After seeing this episode, I eagerly looked up everything on them that I could at the local library (although I wasn't able to find much, thanks to the scanty records for this part of Scottish history).
Constantine definitely struck me as shrewd when he provided a very convincing "innocent reason" for the secret meeting in the drying-house (the argument that it would be better for Kenneth's dignity to have Finella turn down his suit in private, rather than before his entire court). I thought he made a good antagonist here, even if for only one episode.
(I haven't seen the McKellen "Richard III" movie, by the way, but I do have a book that McKellen wrote about the making of it, including the screenplay, which I found fascinating reading.)
I also liked the mention of Michaelmas, which added to the medieval flavor of the story. (It's things like this that make me regret the fact that you never got to make the "Dark Ages" spin-off. Of course, I suppose that an animated series set entirely in 10th century Scotland wouldn't be all that commercially viable, more's the pity.)
I'm looking forward to your rambles on Part Two and Part Three, as well.
I have that same McKellen book. I've seen the movie of course, but I found the screenplay and his commentary on how and why he made the decisions he made, very informative.
I don't know that Dark Ages wouldn't be commercially viable. I do know it's tough to convince Network Executives that it's commercially viable.
About Castle Wyvern...
Now I know a wyvern is a "species" of dragon. Standing on his hind legs. It's either never had front legs or it's front legs evolved into wings, as bats have.
1.) Did you choose the name Wyvern just because it sounded good?
2.) Or was there a backstory to why that castle bears the name of this little known dragon species?
3.) If there is a backstory, could you tell us anything about it?
1. I believe that Michael Reaves chose the name Wyvern.
2. There is now. And if you come to a Gathering, you'll get a clear hint of what that is when you see the DARK AGES pitch.
3. Not right now. But maybe in Montreal. Check out:
Where can I find the stories refered to in different questions? Such as the story of Oberon and Mab, or the stories that take place in the future? I've searced for them but haven't found them.
Well, some of those stories just don't exist anywhere outside my head.
If you look at the Gargoyles 2198 ASK GREG archive, you can see the development I did for that imaginary spin-off. And if you come to a Gathering, you can see the original pitches for GARGOYLES, GARGOYLES: DARK AGES and NEW OLYMPIANS and the reel for BAD GUYS.
But mostly, I've only revealed tidbits here and there that at best might suggest a story or two. The only stories I've actually told are:
1. The first two seasons of the GARGOYLES Series. 65 Episodes.
2. "The Journey". The first episode of THE GOLIATH CHRONICLES.
3. An unpublished comic book script, featuring an untold episode from the World Tour. So far, I haven't shown this to anyone beyond my former Marvel Comics Editor.
4. "The Last". An episode of TEAM ATLANTIS that was never made, but which was written, recorded and partially storyboarded. I play the voice tape (featuring Marina Sirtis as Demona) at the Gathering.
5. "Once Upon A Time There Were Three Brothers..." My one and only stab at fanfiction. It's a prequel to DARK AGES... which you can find here:
At the end, it says TO BE CONTINUED, but DARK AGES is the continuation.
Several people that have attended the gathering(including Todd Jense) have noted that you had a picture of gargoyles fighting a dragon like creature in the dark ages pitch so was this creature a dragon or a magical construct like that statue in Pendragon?
Not revealing cool info to an Anonymous poster.
attempting to be the first question of the new year... as i was last year... first question of the millenium last year!
does Hudson ever feel guilty or have regrets for forming that alliance with Malcolm all those years ago? i mean it led to the destruction of his clan... does he ever wonder what might've happened had the clan just remained isolated? maybe they could've survived through the first millenium unscathed?
Thank God I'm out of 2001 questions. I was beginning to think I'd never get to 2002. Now if I could just get to 2003. (It's hard to believe that in September of 2001, I had actually caught up. CAUGHT UP!!!)
I think that Hudson, like all thinking creatures, has probably run all sorts of scenarios through his mind. But Hudson's pact with Malcolm was hardly the only factor that led to the massacre, and given the state of things in the 20th and 21st centuries, if we're thinking long term, it hardly would have made a difference. He did the best he could with the available info. Regrets, and he has a few, are too few to mention.
In an earlier response to a question about dragons, you said that dragons didn't exist in the gargoyle universe. But, in "Awakenings, Part II", Hudson stated that he thought a helicopter was some kind of "dragon". So, I just wanted to get your thoughts about this.
I don't recall ever saying either that dragons exist or that they don't. In fact, I'm fairly certain that I have never committed one way or the other.
(sorry, no questions this time, but)
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU (and all those other people) for all the Scottish history in the show. Because of it, I am totally facinated with the topic. It's even better that I know cuz I am from scottish decent (as well as a little english and irish), and my other side came from france (sounds like someone in the show, ne?)
Also, it has inspired me to read Macbeth, and I used to hate Shakespeare!
So thanx again to you and all the little peoples!
And while I'm on the topic of scottish history, can you PLEASE finish "Once Upon a Time there were Three Brothers"? I'd make me very happy!
You're very welcome.
As I've mentioned before, "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" is kind of finished. For starters, there are only two brothers left. And although it wasn't necessarily my original intent, the piece wound up being more of a prologue to DARK AGES. So I took Three Brothers right up to the point where Dark Ages begins. And I stopped. To keep going would in fact be to begin Dark Ages, which is a HUGE project, that I'm not prepared to take on right now.
But I'm glad you liked it. It was, I think, my first and only attempt at Fan Fiction.
There's no memo, outline or script for this one on my computer, so we'll head right into my ramble on...
"AVALON, PART ONE"
DIRECTOR: Dennis Woodyard.
WRITER: Lydia Marano.
STORY EDITOR: Brynne Chandler Reaves.
...is all over the place. So much was coming together in this three-parter. The Weird Sisters, the eggs, the Archmage, Tom, Princess Katharine, the Magus, Macbeth, Demona. This was our most ambitious story yet. Which given episodes like "The Mirror" or "Vows" and multi-parters like "Awakening" and "City of Stone" was saying something.
Of course "Avalon" was never designed to be the cohesive single story movie that "City of Stone" was. It was designed as a tryptych. Part one would bring our heroes up to date. Part two would bring our villains up to date. Part three would pit them against each other.
"Avalon I" also represented the first episode in our fourth tier. The three-parter was what we called a 'tentpole'. We knew we couldn't air it until all the Tier 3 episodes had aired. And we knew we couldn't air any other Tier 4 episodes until this three-parter had aired. Despite the fact that "The Price" aired out of order, generally our Tentpole/Tier system worked very well. Out of 66 episodes that I worked on only two: "The Price" and "Kingdom" aired out of order, hopefully with minimal damage to the continuity.
The title was one of mine. But initially I wasn't sure that we were going to call the island Avalon. Now, it's mind-boggling to me, but I actually had my assistant Monique Beatty (who's now a producer in her own right) research Brigadoon to find out if that name was created only for the musical, or if it was something pulled from legends. I was thinking of Avalon, but looking for something from a Scotish tradition as opposed to British. Fortunately, Brigadoon was created for the musical. So we were 'stuck' with Avalon. Which made including King Arthur a natural.
Many series don't reveal that an episode is going to be a multi-parter until you get to the 'To Be Continued' line at the closer. "Avalon, Part One" could have just been titled "Avalon". The conventional wisdom is that people are reluctant to commit the time to a multi-parter in advance. That it is better to hook them on the story before revealing that they HAVE to come back to see the end. I always felt that was cheating. What is your reaction to seeing "Part One" attached to a title?
Another cool shot of our gargs waking up. Always nice to reiterate that at the start of our bigger stories.
Bronx gets left behind. Of course, this often happens. It was one of the things that the World Tour would set about correcting in a BIG way. But we made his getting left behind a bit more obvious here. Usually, he just doesn't go. This time they won't take him and he's sad. We were laying pipe.
My 5-year-old son Benny asked where Hudson and the Trio were going. I had to think about it. "On Patrol, I guess."
Then the GUARDIAN shows up. I love his cool, Goliath-inspired armor. My 7-year-old daughter Erin immediately demanded to know who he was. I wouldn't tell her. (I'm so mean.) Did any of you guess?
Of course he immediately encounters BRENDAN & MARGOT. (What would one of our multi-parters be without him?)
Then comes the three gang-bangers from "AWAKENING, PART THREE". As usual, Keith David does the voice for one of them -- making it distinctive from both Goliath and MORGAN, who's about to come in and speak. The problem is we got a touch confused. In Awakening, Keith voices the bald white guy. Here he does the same voice, but it's assigned to the black guy. Hard to say which is wrong, except by virtue of which came first. It annoys me though.
Morgan's fun in this. I really like him. No one but Simon DelMonte will get this, and I don't know if he even reads these rambles, but Morgan kind of reminds me of Jeff Goslin, a character that Cary Bates and I created in Captain Atom.
Anyway, I like how Morgan talks Guardian down. And I like how the sword is much heavier than he thought it was going to be. His cop buddies tease him, but he maintains his sense of wonder and goodness when talking about the Guardian to Elisa.
That's kind of a cool scene. First off he describes Guardian's armor: "Real armor. King Arthur stuff." Anyone think this was a clue to what was coming in the next episode? Even with the Avalon title? Then he tells her the guy's looking for Gargoyles. Elisa of course discourages her fellow officers from taking Garg reports seriously. Everyone who's seen one must be a nut-case. These guys should form 'a club'. Then she finds out that this Guardian was asking for Goliath by name. BOOM.
Site of our last encounter with Demona and Macbeth. Another clue.
Once Elisa got a look at the Guardian's armor, she must have thought -- yeah, there's a Goliath connection here all right.
Goliath shows with Bronx, who gets to come along and come along and come along for once. Bronx always seemed underutilized to us. We knew we couldn't bring the whole clan along. (Too many characters and no poignancy.) But Bronx was an easy addition. Of course, Bronx is also useful as a kind of living personality test. If Bronx likes you, it's a damn good sign. Bronx likes Tom. Does he remember him? What scents do you figure the Guardian carried back from Avalon. Anyway, Bronx engenders immediate trust in the Guardian for Goliath.
I love this scene. Guardian gives everyone so little time to catch up. He talks about the Archmage, reveals that he's Tom and talks about 'the eggs' being in danger. *That was a fun idea. Keep you guys thinking in terms of eggs for twenty minutes and reveal that it's just a pet name for the Avalon Clan.*
Benny asked: "What kind of Eggs?"
Erin: "Gargoyle Eggs."
Benny: "I didn't know Gargoyles hatch out of eggs." [Well, keep in mind it's been a year since he saw the first thirty episodes. And he's too young to remember the first time he saw the ones we're watching now.]
Then there's the skiff. Elisa: "Where'd that boat come from? ... To where? The other side of the lake? ... Wait for me!"
This all sounds fishy to her. Nothing makes sense. I wanted to get a clear shot in there of the pond in Central Park so that you could see objectively that it doesn't go anywhere. But I never quite managed that. I wanted you guys to be confused. Or at any rate to have a million questions. But like Elisa, no matter how suspicious, I figured you'd want to go along for the ride.
Mary, Katharine, the Magus and young Tom are all reintroduced. It's very clear that the first three have all learned their lesson from Awakening. They've all really become better people. Tom, of course, didn't need to learn that lesson. But he does learn to be a hero. He officially becomes the Guardian. It begins, I believe, as just a nice gesture on the part of the Princess. Later, of course, it'll become the truth. Then there's the long journey. I like the montage there. Hardship. We never had the time to show enough of the hardship of tenth century life.
Our gang heads into Edinburgh. Constantine's followers are all over the place. They all seem to look like Disney storyboard artists for some reason. ;)
There's some stellar voice work in this ep. Morgan Shepard as King Kenneth II. Sheena Easton making her Garg Premiere as Finella. Ian Buchanan as Constantine. (I've already mentioned Keith's versatility.)
But as usual, real props must be handed out to Jeff Bennnett and Kath Soucie.
Jeff plays Brooklyn, the Magus and Maol Chalvim. (No Bruno or Owen or Vinnie in this ep, I'm afraid.)
Kath plays Katharine, Mary and all three Weird Sisters.
Benny saw Finella and said: "That's one of the witches."
A year ago, Tom was his favorite character. Now Tom barely registered. And he really is fascinated with the Weird Sisters. Anyway, I corrected him, but I was glad that they were appearing later.
Ian Buchanan, once of General Hospital, is playing a cad here. We have to very quickly set up a lot of politics, sexual and otherwise. This story was as historical as we could make it based on the available research, the fact that we had to fit in a few fictional characters and eggs, and screen time compression.
Believe it or not, we also had another character originally that we cut early on because it was just getting too damn complicated. Katharine and Maol Chalvim's cousin: the future King Kenneth III. The father of Bodhe. Yep. That Bodhe. The father of Gruoch.
Kenneth III winds up being made High King of Scotland after Constantine is killed. To get a sense of their relationship, at least as I see it, you might want to check out "Once upon a time there were three brothers..."
(Or to give you a hint, ten years after the events depicted here, King Kenneth III would be murdered by Maol Chalvim's operatives during a civil war. Maol Chalvim was also known as Malcolm Forranach, the Destroyer. We used the Maol Chalvim version of his name so as not to confuse him with Katharine's father Prince Malcolm. Just as in City of Stone we emphasized Malcolm Canmore's Canmore name for the same reason.)
Anyway, Maol Chalvim seems intense but right on the money here. He's even kind of heroic when he and the Magus bring Tom back to Katharine's apartment, and he begs Katharine to go. Kind of heroic. He still leaves her. We were trying very hard to balance out his minor role here with his future roll as the grandfather of and major influence on Duncan. (Of course, he's also Macbeth's grandfather, as well.)
After Katharine tells Maol to go, there's a weird cut of him just standing there smiling. We needed some kind of transition before he took off running, and I guess that was the best we could do. But it's still awkward as hell.
But I'm getting ahead of myself.
We establish early on that Katharine doesn't think much of Constantine. You wouldn't know it from Awakening, but obvioulsy she's learned to be a decent judge of character.
Kenneth isn't quite so sharp. Everyone can see that he's a fool for Finella. And he doesn't recognize Constantine's threat (despite the fact that Constantine's father was a bitter enemy and) despite the fact that his son flat out tells him to beware. My thinking was that the crown had kept bouncing back and forth between different branches of the royal family. Kenneth had hoped that by taking Constantine in, instead of banishing him, he'd be able to be a positive influence on the boy. A nice idea perhaps, but maybe Kenneth was too innattentive to pull it off. And Maol probably was too covetous to really be a brother to young Con.
Anyway, Constantine tricks Finella and kills the king. We hear Finella sobbing, just to prove that she was neither in on it nor that she would approve of it. (Though one wonders what her reaction would have been down the road if Constantine hadn't spurned her in favor of Katharine. Would she have adjusted to the crime? Or did Constantine become an unredeemable villain in her eyes immediately? I hate to say it, but I tend to think it's the former. Actually, I don't hate to say it. She's more interesting to write that way.)
Erin asked: "He killed King Arthur? Why?"
That's a tough question. So first I had to explain that it was King Kenneth, not King Arthur. Then my wife Beth helped out by explaining that Constantine wanted to be king.
We come back from the act and we see that Constantine was ready for the takeover. The Banners are immediately changed in a scene clearly inspired by the Ian McKellan (spelling?) movie version of Shakespeare's Richard III. (A version I heartily recommend, by the way.)
We also continue to set up the Magus' own tragedy. He loves Katharine. Has loved her since before Awakening. That feeling is shown to deepen here when she is once again in danger. And when Constantine tries to coerce her into marrying him. (The astute Mary and Tom have to hold him back.) Here, we sense that maybe Katharine might some day return that love. That's what I wanted you all to think anyway. Did you?
Constantine takes his crown. Originally we wanted to stage this with the Stone of Destiny as we did with Macbeth. But again, I think we just had too many sets.
Michaelmas. I just like that word.
Constantine is fairly astute himself: "You have 36 very good reasons to obey." We kept reiterating the number of eggs for what was coming later.
The Magus disguises broken pots as eggs and vice-versa. But it always seemed to me that the kitchen staff at Edinburgh sure broke a lot of pots. I mean a LOT!
I like the lines: "Taking the wee bairns for a walk?" and "I don't think I like Gargoyle eggs." Very menacing.
Princess K burns her wedding dress. She feels she cannot leave because C will follow her to "the ends of the Earth." So the Magus responds: "Then I will take you beyond them." Again. Very romantic moment between them.
Finella joins the troop. The WOMAN SCORNED. She's really fun now. Dangerous. I always laugh when Constantine drinks the brew and collapses so abruptly.
Erin: "The Weird Sisters". My kids are just fascinated with this trio. I wonder if they still will be by the end of this three-parter or if like many fans, they will be disappointed?
They get turned into owls. But the Magus worries about giving up the source of his power. K doesn't care about that.
And Finella and Mary agree to take the book. I love these two. I think they'd make a totally kick-ass team. I doubt it would be commercial enough, but I'd love to do a spin-off show just with these two women. At any rate, there was the plan to include them as recurring characters in TimeDancer.
Tom has to leave his mother and his childhood behind. Now his role as the Guardian is a way for Katharine to make him accept the loss. It is the start of their relationship, though neither knows it. I watch this now, and I can't help thinking of the Anakin & Padma relationship and where that's destined to go.
Back to the present. We see the impressive shores of Avalon. Very cool painting.
Bronx reacts. Guardian: "He's found the eggs..." And the music swells and two gargs and a garg beast appear on the cliff.
Now is that a cliff-hanger or what? What was your reaction?
Erin and Benny wanted "to see ther rest!" I told them they'd have to wait a week and we got a lot of protesting. Just what I was hoping for.
Anyway, that's my ramble. Where's yours?
1.Did you intend the first part of the 2198 contest to be the opening prologue for gargoyles 2198?
2a.Do the other four spinoffs have opening prologues?
2b.Have you written all four if they do?
3.If so could you share with us the opeing prologues for Timedancer, New Olympians, Bad Guys and Pendragon?
1. More or less.
2. Not written out. (And there are five other spin-offs.)
3. Not interested in Dark Ages, are you?
Did Hudson call his mate something? (The way Goliath called Demona 'Angel')
Why is it that most of the main gargoyle cast of Dark Ages survived to the modern age in one form or another (Goliath and Hudson slept for a thousand years in stone, Demona was given immortality and Iago, Othello and Desdemona were resurrected by Demona) with the exception of Hudson's mate and Hippolyta? I mean I just find it a little bit weird that ¾ of the main characters survived making it seem massacre was nothing since most of the main characters we know survived.
You're looking at it from a skewed point of view.
I thought you'd be MOST interested in seeing the prequel adventures of the characters you know best and slowly introducing you to more. At any rate, that's the way I feel like exploring the past.
How that could make the massacre 'nothing' doesn't make any sense to me. Was it nothing when you first saw it in "Awakening, Part One" when you literally didn't know ANYONE who was destroyed except Demona -- who really wasn't?
Almost all creative work focuses on specific individual characters and the impact of events on their lives.
You might have answered this before, but I couldn't find it.
1) Did Goliath and Demona have any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
2) Did Othelle and Desdemona have any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
3) Did Hyppolytahave any children in the 978 (Bronx's) rookery?
1. No. They were too young.
2. No. They were too young.
3. No. She was two young.
How did the Archmage get the grimorum?
How did he become Malcolm's advisor?
What did he do before becoming Malcolm's advisor?
Why wasn't the Archmage burnt for witchcraft?
1-3. Not saying now. All part of the Dark Ages tapestry.
4. He was too useful for too long.
What did princess Elena think of the gargoyles at Wyvern?
That's a topic I'd like to explore in stories.
1. Were Demona and Goliath mates before or after "Vows"?
2. What year did Goliath get his name?
1. Before or after which part of "Vows"? The modern day stuff or the flashback stuff?
2. You know I haven't worked that out precisely yet.
wow, its beginning to feel like the time when i first found this site and asked strings of questions daily! anyway:
when the eggs of a generation hatch, does the clan keep the hatchlings in the rookery for awhile or are they generally let to run around outside the rookery with the rest? all these infants and youngsters running around at once seems to me to be quite a handful! how do they deal with this?
do you suppose that the kids of Bronx's generation were in the rookery during the Viking attack and thats why we didn't see them?
like maybe gargs make them sleep outside so they can get their solar energy, but at night they stay in the rookery, maybe?
just seems dangerous to have all these winged, horned and taloned toddlers running around the castle! geeez!
In DARK AGES, given the chance, I'd like to show more of castle life, more of human/gargoyle interaction. More of the generations of gargoyles who live there.
Locking kids up in the rookery every night seems unlikely. Though perhaps a wise course during a Viking siege.
in the Wyvern years, was the Trio kinda outcasts or loners of their generation? it seemed to me that they generally just stuck together with Bronx and didn't interact much with their siblings. am i right about this or did we just not really see their relationships with their siblings due to lack of time?
Mostly the latter. I certainly wouldn't call them outcasts. I just think they were best friends.
didn't the various gargoyle clans feel wary or even angry that humans were building their castles and fortresses over garg rookeries for free soldiers? i mean, it seems to me that the humans are like, "we're going to build our castle here, if you want to stay, fine, but you have to help protect our castle." if i were a garg i'd have been angry, Demona and Othello were right, not only were the humans totally asses to them, but they were also using them! why do the old garg clans put up with this?
now, obviously i know that the humans would make the deal of protecting the gargs during the day, but did they just move in or did they ask the gargs first? i'd imagine that most humans generally wouldn't bother to ask "animals" permission. what are your thoughts?
There's no ONE answer to cover every clan. There was a period, a semi-mythical golden age in human/gargoyle relations, when this was popular. I'm sure there were times when gargoyles were presented with little REAL choice, given their vulnerabilities.
If we're talking about Wyvern specifically, there was an alliance formed between Hudson and Malcolm.
Did Hippolyta survive the wyvern massacre?
Who said she survived to the Wyvern Massacre?
Did Demona and Iago get along in the Dark Ages?
Sometimes. It was a long age.
Hi Greg, If Dark Ages ever goes through, would there be any type of relationship between different clans, for example would the Wyvern Clan know the existence or be in contact with the Loch Ness clan?
Yes, eventually. And other clans too. Clans that didn't survive into our century.
At some point at the Gathering, I overheard you telling some lucky fan or fans when Brooklyn learned to read. I was dashing off somewhere, probably trying to chase down Kanthara again (whom I finally caught on Monday-- Hi Kanth!), and I didn't get to eavesdrop on the whole thing. It sounded fascinating, and like part of a larger question about which gargs learned to read when. I sure wish I knew the answer, and I'd bet money that your other faithful readers want to know too. So...
We know when Hudson and Braodway learned to read-- they started right after "Lighthouse on the Sea of Time." When did the other members of the Manhattan clan learn to read?
Thatnk you for your time and I hope everybody pre-registers for the Gathering 2002-- I did!
Thank you, Mary. I believe Brooklyn learned to read shortly after awakening in the twentieth century. I believe Goliath learned from Demona in the tenth century. I believe Demona learned from the Archmage. I believe Lex learned in the tenth century too. Angela was taught by the Magus.
(Lots of fun tidbits always get revealed at the Gathering.)
If Dark Ages got made, how much would you compressthe time of 23 years? Would it be something like 23 episodes, more or less, or have may events happen each year (with some multi parters to)? Or what?
I don't have it planned out by episodes at this time. But if it took 23 years, so be it.
You've said that gargoyles *could* live up to an old age, but that few survive that long because of the violence of the times.
1a) Were the Wyvern gargoyles constantly under attack in the days before castle Wyvern? b) ...after Castle Wyvern? c) I think you'd mentioned an event we'd never seen where many in the Wyvern clan were murdered, hence explaining their numbers in 994. Can you confirm this, and give us any details on the event?
2a) Are these warriors dying young, or are they dying as they start reaching their 120's or so, and start slowing down? b) Are older gargoyle warriors expected to keep fighting, or at some point are they able to retire? c) Is this expectation what's causing gargoyles not to live up to their 200's?
1a. I don't know about constantly. But there were problems.
c. I don't recall that. I did mention that the clan colonized a new location before 994.
2a. Both, I suppose. I don't like talking in generalities. (I like being mysterious, of course. That's different.) I tell stories about individuals. Just not here.
2b. The concept of retirement is largely human. Though Hudson did step aside for Goliath.
befor ethe Wyvern massacre, did the trio often seem to get in touble? when Goliath approached them in the courtyard and said, "you three! down to the rookery until i return..." it seemed as if this wasn't the first time they had caused trouble or at least not the first time Goliath had yelled at them... were they troublemakers of a sort among the clan?
They got into their fair share.
What did the Archmage do to get charged with attempted treason?
Why would the Illuminati be the antagonists in Dark Ages? What is their interest in the civil war?
Not "the" antagonists. But the society is "an" antagonist.
They have their hands in everything.
What other gargoyle would be major characters in Dark Ages besides Goliath, Demona, Hudson, Hipployta, Iago, Othello and Desdemona?
You've covered the biggies for the long hall. Brooklyn, Lex and Broadway would have minor roles. Others would play in also. Hudson's mate, would be significant. But those are the big guns.
How much would the Wyvern gargoyles be involved in the war against Culen? Would they fight in any major battles?
If you were able to do the "dark ages", would you be adding a lot more story about the big events in 975, 985 and 994 ad besides what we know?
Eventually. After I get through 971-974.
I am so agog, aghast, and pleasantly stunned that you still take the time to do these! Well done, Mr. Weisman. I join in the multitudes begging for the restoration and continuation of this series.
Oh don't worry, I do have a question. Don't think I'm just here to spread big words. Tell me, part of what got me so interested in Gargoyles in the first place was that the gargoyles and ol' Xanatos and other assorted characters were Scottish. I'm sort of fascinated with my heritage and it led me to wonder, did you ever work the Scottish independence into the plot, even if only in your head? You know, similar time period to, for lack of a better reference, "Braveheart"? (Awful film, IMHO...)
Xanatos isn't Scottish. He's Greek-American.
I haven't seen Braveheart. But the whole of Scottish history is a tapestry I'd like to further explore.
More questions on Hudson's mate...you gonna start hating me soon
1.) Could she read?
2.) What were her feelings on how Demona treated Hudson? Or was she even alive when Demona started bashing him?
3.) Did she use weapons/shields/armour as Hudson' does?
Thanks for answering what ya can or want to :)
1. I tend to doubt it, but I haven't given it much thought.
2. No comment.
geeeez, Sapphire, i didn't know you hated me so much, yikes! i don't want to be a mutate!! actually, i'm with Fang, i might like it, it could be cool, i don't know...
anyway, question time:
you said that besides Bronx you showed no gargoyles of his generation in "Awakening" cuz it would've been hard to show these young kid gargs and then have them all die in the massacre, so would you have had a problem showing the young gargs in "Dark Ages" knowing most of them would probably end up dieing too?
No. I would have shown them eventually.
But keep in mind, Dark Ages begins in 971 when the Trio were young. It ends in 994. But it might have taken me 23 years to get there.
Hey yo....gotta tell ya' that Gargoyles is my favortie toon or all time. Just one thing that always bugged me about the Awakening series, is that the first half hour seemed cut around Goliath's brothers and sisters. For some reason those first to nameless Gargoyles (especially the one with the bull horns) and all of the others you barely got a peek at always intrigued me....who were they?, what were they like?....if there's any names or info on these mysterious characters of Goliath's fallen clan, please let me know..
p.s....If Coldstone was made up of pieces of other Gargoyles....wouldn't he have some womenly feartures too?...j/k
He does. Have you seen his inner thigh. Whoah!!!
Anyway, yes, I have some notions about Goliath's rookery siblings. We've met three. And I've given a great deal of thought to Hyppolyta, a fourth.
Again, given enough time and episodes we'd have met them all.
That's what the Dark Ages prequel spin-off was for.
in response to my question about England getting rid of their gargoyles you said, "England did a worse job than most." do you mean cuz there are still gargoyles in England a thousand years later or was there another reason you said this?
on a related note, when Bodhe said that the English rid their lands of gargoyles long ago... how long ago? obviously there was at least a clan or two around during King Arthur's reign and i can't see him allowing massacres and such. oh, and since we know of the London clan i realize that the English HAVN'T rid their lands completly of gargoyles, but when were the bulk of them banished/killed/whatever?
What other reason did you have in mind?
As for Bodhe, he wasn't exactly an authority. The English thought that their country was gargoyle free by Macbeth's time. It wasn't. What gargs there were left had just gone into hiding by that time.
How did Goliath come to get his name, and when did he get it? Thanks
During the Dark Ages. A human named him. That's all I want to say right now.
Someone asked about sources on clothing from 1000 AD so I found these two books and figured that I would post them.
The Book of Costume
What People Wore
since Cuchalin had a garg beast, is it safe to presume that there was once at least one garg clan in Ireland?
if so, what was this clans relationship to the feud between Cuchalin and the Banche if any? was the clan not involved, Cuchalin's allies, etc....
Yes, at one point there was an Irish garg clan. No more details are currently forthcoming.
in the archives someone asked who would be the human leader of Wyvern in "Dark Ages" and you responded, "Malcolm once the war was won." what war are you refering to?
Take a look at "Once Upon a Time There Were Three Brothers" in the OLD ASK GREG ARCHIVE.
i was wondering what your thoughts were on the fact that the English rid their lands of gargoyles before many other gargoyle/human relationships fell apart. in Scotland, Japan, Guatemala, and probably other clan locations, humans and gargs were getting along alright in the 1000's but the English got rid of the gargs, why? what really bugs me about them doing this is that like in many other places in the world, gargoyles were having an effect on myth and culture, more so in England than many other places. gargoyles seemed to have been a very positive influence in England because lions, unicorns, griffons, etc. all became English symbols of honor, strength, courage, and power, why use and keep these symbols when banishing the people who influenced them, the gargs? unless somethng happened in England to make them hate gargs alot, i don't understand how a people could honor a people and then turn around and banish them...
England considered itself more civilized. They weren't the only "nation" (and I use the term loosely and anachronistically) to get rid of their 'goyles. And England did a worse job than most.
Faieq, Goliath said, "I grow tired of this, take whats left of your men and begone!" i think he meant he was tired of that particular battle and i doubt there had been previous encounters with Hakon.
Yeah. That sounds more like it.
In Awakening Part one, the Vikings or at least Hakon, are convinced that the gargoyles are just stone statues. This suggests that this is the first time Hakon has attacked Castle Wyvern. But when Goliath awakens he says something like, "I grow tired of these attacks." That means that the attack was only a middle of a series of attacks by the Vikings. Was the battle at the beggining of Awakening part one, the vikings first battle with Castle Wyvern. Or had another party of Vikings been attacking Wyvern and had moved on, leaving Hakon's army in charge of that area.
Well, Hakon had never been there before. But you're quoting something that Goliath said in the MIDDLE of the battle. So he may have been talking about the fact that Hakon's crowd was still fighting. Or he may have been refering to the fact that Wyvern's isolated location often made them targets of attack. From other Vikings, etc.
when garg clans were all over the world did the clans ever have "clan protectorate" boundry lines the way we have national borders? i'm mainly refering to the clans of the British isles since there seemed to be more clans there and they are closer to each other, like the Wyvern, break-off Wyvern, Loch Ness, and London clans, and i'm sure there were once many more, so did they ever have boundries between their protectorates?
More like vague territories.
Would the Loch Ness Monsters ever be featured in Dark Ages or Timedancer?
In the episode long way till morning we see how princess Katherine gets her xenophobic behavior of gargoyles by her father telling her things like "the gargoyles would get you." Hudson hears this and tells her father "we will never hurt the lass" My questions are
1) Why did prince Malcolm tell his daughter "The gargoyles would get you" since he knows the gargoyles would never do such a thing?
2)What would Hudson do if he were to ever meet Princess Katherine again?
1. Malcolm is being expedient, not wise.
2. Thank her for raising the eggs.
And it's Katharine. With two "a"s.
How did the Archmage remain in Prince Malcolm's service for so long? From the evidence that you've given us, he seems to have been Malcolm's advisor from 971 (when the humans first moved into the future Castle Wyvern) to 984 or shortly before (cf. "Long Way Till Morning") - around thirteen years.
The Archmage honestly didn't strike me as a particularly subtle character or one whom I'd easily expect to be able to conceal his true nature; Xanatos can easily pull such a deception off, but the Archmage's style was so obviously that of the blatantly evil sorcerer with all his ragings and tantrums that I find it hard to believe that he could have been able to dupe the court for so long. (Of course, Hudson does seem to be already suspecting him by 975 in "Vows"). How did he manage to pull it off?
The Archmage arrives on the scene shortly after the alliance is formed. He does something that endears him mightily to the Prince. And though his true nature is obvious to us (and to Hudson) he was very careful not to reveal it to the Prince. Until he did. At which point, he was booted.
There may have been a few close calls before that, but nothing obvious enough for the Prince to turn out a valuable ally.
Did Hudson have a biological child who was Goliath's age?
Hi, I'm curious...what was life like growing up for Goliath(especially in his warrior-trainee years). I'm wondering whether or not he had a stressful time in his warrior-trainee stage. Well I'm sure he did, I'm just asking you to confirm it(if you can). I'm wondering because I'm curious as to what shaped him(speaking as if he were real) to be the person he is today. Judging from his character attributes(which I absolutely admire; "love" even) I'm sure he had a very hard time when he reached puberty. In my mind I see him as a poor troubled youth who is both admired(for his looks and talents) and absolutely hated(for the same things by his clanmates who were jealous of him). Always torn between the need to succeed to please his elders but not succeed too highly to keep his clanbrothers from hating his guts even more than they already did.
Actually, I think Goliath was a bit sheltered and naive. Not from danger, of course. He faced plenty of that. But until he got quite a bit older, he was less aware of deceipt.
Given that he took danger as a given, I don't think Goliath would think he had a very tough childhood.
As to his youth and training, that's what GARGOYLES: THE DARK AGES was created to explore (among other things).
Was Hudson's mate killed or did she die naturally?
She did not die "naturally". *whatever THAT means*
Vows. I always prefer this style of time travel theory, when you affect events in the past you are fulfilling history, not changing it. Too few time travel stories do this, most instead taking the track of messing up the time line and then putting it back, or else just changing an unpreferred event into something else. New timelines, alternate timelines, erased timelines, it all just gets too messy sometimes. Also fun are the "cause it by trying to prevent it" stories, done with prophecy in Greek myth and time travel today. MIA even got into the act, though in a most unique fashion.
"More's the pity." I love that line too. And Morgan Shepard's wonderfully expressive voice just adds to the whole experience. I'll be the one to ask this: In the plan for Dark Ages, would we have seen the events of Vows from the other side of things?
Eventually. Dark Ages begins in 971. Vows was set in 975.
Morgan Shepard was great, but Keith David said "More's the pity."
Written by Shari Goodhartz
Michael Reaves, Story Editor
Benny: "But Daddy, when it's dark they get alive. But when it's light, the get frozen like a statue."
Last night, the kids, my sister, my wife and I all watched "Vows" together. Time to ramble.
Back to the Golden Cup Bakery Building. As I noted in the previously posted memo about this episode, I wanted a little opening battle, but I didn't want to waste time in a tight, packed script explaining how this came about. It does beg the question though. Assume that X contacted Elisa. She told Goliath. He went ALONE? His friends allowed this? Hmmm.
Xanatos knows from the letter to himself what to do, but I sometimes wonder just how detailed the letter was. I like to think it was fairly sketchy. That exactly HOW Xanatos got Goliath to come was his own machinations. Otherwise, though he takes the credit for the letter, the truth is that the plan itself wasn't his idea. He got the idea from the letter. And he wrote the letter based on what he had done, which he had gotten from the letter. None of this is really his to own, though he does claim ownership. So I like to think that at least some of the details were X's. For example, X knows what G will respond to, i.e. Demona.
Hudson, on hearing about the wedding, suddenly makes the connection to the long ago incident when he met the Goliath from the future. So he's strangely ambivalent. Elisa on the other hand, seems flat out jealous to me. After the events of "The Mirror" and "Eye of the Beholder", she's much more aware and focused on her feelings for Goliath. SHE DOES NOT WANT TO ACT ON THOSE FEELINGS. At this time, she thinks it's impossible. But that doesn't change how she feels. And now, she's jealous. Goliath's feelings for Elisa are just as intense, but so are his feelings for the "Angel" of his youth. He HAS to give it one last chance. (And this will be the last chance. The final nail in the coffin of his and Demona's "marriage".) Brooklyn, meanwhile, is just knee-jerk against anything involving Demona.
PETROS XANATOS is introduced. Again, I wonder why he was invited. Was he also included in the letter? Or did Xanatos invite him to prove something to his father. Is X that needy? Or did X invite him to the wedding, because of course he'd invite his father to his wedding, and his already planned "honeymoon" to 975 shouldn't alter his decorum. Perhaps he's mildly surprised his father winds up coming along? Anyway, Petros was a fun character. A tough hard physical man. With morals. A great contrast to the son. I knew even then that we'd give Petros and David an arc to their relationship, (one that eventually would culminate in Gathering2).
"Oh, reason not the need." A little King Lear is always nice. And I love Petros' attitude on the line, "And the armor?" I mean what would you say to your son if you saw him dressed like that? I'd like to know how many people had sort of forgotten that X was even wearing armor (we're so used to it) until Petros made an issue of it?
I love all the irony in the dialogue between Petros and David. David knows what he's planning. He must be smiling when Petros says "I'd like to get my hands on the man who gave you that coin." And when David says, "Someday, I'll prove to you that I'm a self-made man," he must really be patting himself on the back.
I love the voice work of Keith and Marina when doing their teen-age counterparts. So subtle, yet it's always clear which Goliath and Demona is talking at any given moment.
Gotta love that storage room in the clock tower. The Eye of Odin, the Grimorum, half the Phoenix Gate, and, oh, yes, a comatose Coldstone. By the way, despite what the memo said, I think generally, Goliath carried that Gate in the pouch attached to his belt. Not behind some brick. We hadn't actually come up with that pouch yet, not until the World Tour. But using RetCon, I think that's where he kept it until they moved to the clock tower and Demona tried to kill him, Hudson and Elisa in "Long Way to Morning".
One interesting thing: this is the first episode where we actually CONFIRM that the ILLUMINATI does exist. Matt's mentioned it. Even chased it in SILVER FALCON, but we've never been shown any proof of it's existence until now. Was anyone surprised by that?
Judge Roebling was interesting in theory, though not so much in the episode. I'd like to do more with him some day. I also thought that it was interesting that despite seeing the tape of the Gargoyles in advance. And not reacting outwardly when he saw Goliath, he still gasps when Demona enters. What is it about her? When she entered, Benny turned to me and said: "She's queen of the Gargoyles." Oh. So that's it.
(And everytime Xanatos and Fox are on screen together, Benny likes to point out that he and Erin dressed up as them at the last Gathering. "That's me. That's you, Erin.")
To some extent, X must have filled D in on his plan. I love her "acting" when she enters and gives her bitter "excuse" for being there to Goliath. She's playing hard to get!
I love Petros: "Unnacceptable." He's still trying to teach David the error of his ways.
The Gate itself is very idiosyncratic. It's size, the size of its portal, and the duration the portal stays open seems to vary not just from episode to episode but from scene to scene. Sometimes it annoys me, like when Princess Elena removes the Gate from her sleeve, and suddenly it's bigger than her hand. But now I'm just amused by it. Again, if you think of it as a steam valve for the timestream, it explains a lot.
I love the little sound that Paca put in when the two pieces of the Gate first come together. What a tip-off that was, yet it's subtle. Did anyone think about the significance of the talisman that Demona had shared with Goliath before she started speaking in Latin and flames appeared out of nowhere?
It was hard to make people understand the time loop a bit. But it seemed really hard to make them see why I kept wanting to repeat scenes to show the connective tissue. We had to squeeze in Owen's "Honeymoon" line the second time. No one left space for it.
For the first of many times in the series, someone (X) says the line: "It's not where, it's when". (Erin: "I know when.")
I love X & Fox's relationship. "Having fun." "A marvelous time." Great stuff.
Hudson gets a close look at 1995 Goliath and immediately sees the age and wear and tear on the guy. (I love the shot of Goliath gagging him.) That says a lot for Hudson, because the visual difference between the two Gs was extremely subtle in the animation -- when it existed at all.
Knowing what we had planned (more or less) for Avalon, we were already laying groundwork here for that. Setting up the combined power of the Gate, Grimorum and Eye. Setting up the Archmage's desire for that power. Further demonstrating his enmity for the people he'd wind up using. Of course, making Demona his apprentice was fun. Tells a lot about her own desire for power that even when she was a good girl, she was still willing to work for the Archmage in order to learn his secrets. Willing even to steal for him.
The Norman Ambassador and Prince Malcolm make a BIG deal about how odd the Xanatoses' clothes are. But were they THAT strange? Was Fox's wedding gown that odd? And even if they were strange, did they look as shabby as Prince Malcolm seemed to suggest?
Not every episode gives you a double wedding. Fox and David. Elena and Malcolm. Hey, did anyone notice that we married off our lead villain? That was very daring, and we all but threw it away in Act One. Was anyone expecting Fox and X to really get married? And once they were, did you think you'd see them have a kid by season's end? I think we broke new ground there.
I like the exchange between Goliath and Hudson. Goliath's trying to explain that he's not a creature of sorcery, but a time traveler. H: "And I suppose you came back in time on the wind." O.k., well sorcery was involved if you're gonna get technical. And Goliath has some amusing tense problems while trying to describe what happened in his recent past, Hudson's FAR future. Then Hudson looks him in the eye and decides to trust him on no further evidence. Cool.
I knew a girl named Bryant from Bar Harbor, Maine once. That's where we got X's home town.
Fox is so proud of her man. But I love Petros' "Mr. Big-Shot Time Traveler" line. Or rather I love the way Morgan Shepard read the line.
How hard did Demona try to do things differently from the way she remembered them being done? She knows Goliath is going to fly down to try and join her and her younger self. She tries to leave before he can get there. But the gate stays open long enough for him to go with. Did it ever occur to her to go somewhen else other than 994? I guess part of it could be chalked up to dim memory. It was over a thousand years ago. And Demona lived through that 1000 years. Even for a very significant event in her life, it must still be very hazy.
That exchange between Demona and Demona is a lot of fun. Demona is so brutal to Demona. (And, hey, she spells out the Gate's power to any audience member who hasn't yet caught on.) "Do not share it with-- Do not share it!" I love that line. Also:
"I am what you will become."
"I will never be like you."
"I don't want to hurt you."
"And I don't want to BE you."
pretty cool stuff.
I also like the moment when we have two gates rolling about on the floor and young Demona and older Goliath both bend over to pick them up. At first we had a lot of discussion as to who should pick up which gate. But the discussion became moot, since after the gate pieces were reunited, they almost always seemed like they had never been broken in the first place. Magic.
And the young Demona, older Goliath scene is also gorgeous.
"What am I to do?"
Love that. Love his whole "Do nothing/attend the petty jealousy" speech. I think it's very pretty. Very sad. At that moment, does Goliath hope he's changing the future? Or is he simply trying to spare this young Angel a couple extra decades of pain?
Showing Demona's natural bents again: Goliath isn't sure if he remembers the incantation, though he's heard it multiple times by this point. Young Demona, having only heard it ONCE, does remember and uses the Gate perfectly.
"Time Travel's funny that way." At least it is in the Gargoyle Universe with the strict, strict rules that I imposed. Of course, I've always thought that those strict rules made the stories more challenging for the writer and, yet, more fun and satisfying for the viewer.
I also really like Petros' "American Penny" speech. For once the "Xanatos Tag" of victory doesn't go to David.
Where did the expression "More's the pity." come from? I've heard it many times. I know what it means, though that's more from sound and context than from the words themselves. What am I quoting when I use it? Does anyone know? (This isn't a contest. I really don't know.)
Finally, my tape has the weird mistake ending that first aired, which shows Demona and Goliath in the clock tower. It's pretty, but it drives me nuts and I think it's really confusing. But I've talked about that many times before, and I'm sick of it, so this time, I'll let it go.
Another "Vows" thought. Princess Elena's being of Norman ancestry has two interesting features about it (at least, interesting to me).
1. I did some research on the subject and found that the Duke of Normandy in 975 was one Richard the Fearless; I assume that he would have been Princess Elena's father. In actual history, he had a daughter named Emma who married Ethelred the Unready (and Canute of Denmark after Ethelred's deposition and death), and was the mother of Edward the Confessor (the King of England at the time of Canmore's overthrow of Macbeth - and who got a brief mention in Shakespeare's "Macbeth", particularly the bit about his touch curing the King's Evil). If Richard the Fearless was indeed Elena's father in the Gargoyles Universe as well as Emma's, then that would make Princess Katharine and Edward the Confessor cousins, which I find both interesting and amusing.
2. Also, the Normans were of Viking descent, as you no doubt know (Frenchified Vikings who settled in northern France in the year 911), which would mean, since Princess Katharine was of Norman descent on her mother's side, that she was ultimately part-Viking (although I certainly doubt that either she or Hakon ever suspected that :). An amusing irony, to me at least.
1. Very cool. Let's say yes. (E-mail me that stuff please.)
2. My daughter, my sister, my daughter, my sister....
And we thought Hakon and Wolf being related was odd.
Saw "VOWS" last night with the family. I'll ramble on that one shortly, but here's the memo from November '94. Shari Goodhartz wrote the outline, which Michael Reaves edited. Shari's entire story was more or less set at the Eyrie Building. It was about Demona and Xanatos using the wedding to get half of a magical talisman from Goliath. Goliath prevents them from using this macguffin, but realizes once and for all that he and Demona are over.
As I noted below, it seemed like that wasn't enough. So I took ALL of Shari's story and CRUSHED it into Act One. Then I came up with the Time Travel story that was the heart of VOWS. All of Acts Two and Three as presented in the memo below are my work. But I think Shari and Michael did a great job of executing it in this jam-packed episode.
One little tidbit. Petros was my original name for Xanatos' father. (I went to college with a guy named Petros.) But Shari and/or Michael named the dad "Stefan", which I went with here. At the recording session, Marina Sirtis pointed out that the name didn't work for some reason that I can no longer recall. (Aris, any thoughts?) So I jumped in and rechristened him Petros. Later we realized that both Elisa and David had fathers who had been named variations on Peter. To me, that was a very cool thing.
Notes on "Vows" Outline...
Basically, it still didn't seem like we had enough story. So I compressed what was here and tried to extrapolate forward to fill out acts 2 and 3.
I'm calling it the PHOENIX GATE. It can be used as a gateway to anywhere and anywhen. (The Gate will, I believe, eventually give us our Battle of Britain Story. And give the Archmage a powerful weapon for reaching and conquering Avalon.) By combining the two halves of the Phoenix Gate and invoking the Latin translation of the phrase: "Burn down the walls of time and space!", the gate opens in flame and sucks up anyone in the immediate vicinity, transporting them to the place and time chosen by the invoker. But choosing requires incredible concentration. Otherwise, the chooser's emotional or mental whim of the moment may cause the gate to drop everyone off at Burger King instead of Fort Knox.
So we're going to do a time travel story. Which means we need to establish traveling rules for our series. I'm going with the most conservative, most restrictive rules possible, because more than any other type of fantasy or science fiction convention, time travel is really subject to logic abuse. So...
Whatever's happened in the past has already happened, including the actions of our time travelers. Recorded history may be incomplete or incorrect, but true history cannot be changed. When Demona and Goliath go back in time to meet the young Demona, both of the older gargoyles are seeking to change or influence the young Demona's history. But this meeting already took place. The older Demona remembers it. (Maybe not every precise detail, and maybe she didn't fully understand the event at the time, but she does remember it.) Whatever influence the modern gargoyles had on her has already been figured into the events that followed, many of which have already been depicted in other episodes. (Sadly, in this case, neither Goliath or Demona had any real sustained influence on the younger Demona at all. That's the tragic flaw of both Demonas. They just never learn.)
WHERE AND WHEN ARE WE GOING?
Castle Wyvern. 975 A.D. The castle is ruled by the 21 year old Prince Malcolm of Wyvern. Malcolm's chief advisors are the 35 year old Captain of the Guard [NOTE: per my recent work on the timeline, the Captain was 29 years old in 975.]; the Archmage (nine years younger than when he appeared in "Long Way to Morning"), and Hudson who is biologically 49. Young warriors, Goliath and Demona are both biologically 19, (in "Long Way..." they were more like 23). If you have space for them, Brooklyn, Lexington and Broadway are all biologically nine. Bronx hasn't hatched yet. In contrast, our modern Goliath is biologically 29 years old and Hudson's 59.
That's the theme. Vows. When you keep them. When you can't. Why you do or don't. Don't hesitate to play it up.
In thinking about it, I think Stefan Xanatos should be a naturalized American Citizen living in a north eastern fishing community. Maybe somewhere in Maine. He's still Greek, but he emigrated before David was born. That way, David Xanatos could have been born and raised to pursue (and pervert) the American Dream.
1. Night by some landmark, (maybe the Goldencup Bakery Building or the Cyberbiotics Tower). DAVID XANATOS (in armor) and GOLIATH fight. No stolen Cyberbiotics devices. I really don't want to sweat this scene too much. There are a hundred ways that this could have begun, and in the interest of getting to our main story quicker, I don't want to spend a lot of time "prologing" our prologue. But for the sake of consistency, I'll posit the following: Xanatos left a vaguely menacing message for Goliath with ELISA, whom he can reach easily enough at the precinct house. (The location of the rendezvous itself may have suggested bad news.) Goliath, prepared for a trap but not about to hide from danger, went to the stated rendezvous and, expecting the worse, waded into battle before Xanatos could get a word in edgewise. Well, Xanatos is always up for a little workout, so he fought back with relish, taking his time to reveal the real reason he had asked Goliath to come: He wants Goliath to be best man at his wedding tomorrow night. As a little incentive, he's invited DEMONA, and wrested a promise that she'll be on her best behavior throughout the event. [Reveal as much or as little of the "prologing" as necessary in order to make the scene play.]
2. Clock Tower just before Dawn. HUDSON seems strangely ambivalent, but Elisa and BROOKLYN can't believe Goliath would even consider going to the wedding. They have a hundred reasons each why it's obvious lunacy. Goliath doesn't put up much of a counter-argument. He knows they're right. He won't go. Dawn comes. They all turn to stone. Elisa heads home.
3. Castle during the day. In the courtyard, Xanatos waits for something, still in his armor but with the helmet off. A helicopter lands, piloted by FOX and carrying STEFAN XANATOS, a big, tough, weathered but honest Greek fisherman. Stefan is a little put off by his son's armored attire, but tries at first to make the best of an awkward situation. He is teasingly superstitious about his son seeing Fox on the day of the wedding, but the happy couple make their own luck and patronizingly ignore his concerns, which darkens Stefan's mood. Fox exits to get dressed. David asks his dad, what he thinks of the place. Stefan is frankly appalled by the conspicuous consumption. Why does his son need a place like this? "Oh, reason not the need, father. I wanted it. So I took it." Stefan is disgusted by his son's attitude. Why does he need to wear armor? David assures him, the armor is purely defensive. Defense against what? What kind of life does his son lead? He think David would have been better off being a humble fisherman, like himself: "In fact, if I ever get my hands on the man who sent you that coin, I swear I'll teach him a lesson for meddling with my family." David smiles when his Dad brings up "the coin". That's ancient history, Pop. Besides, that coin was only worth about 20 grand. David's now worth "considerably more". But Dad's not letting him off the hook. If he had never received that coin anonymously, he'd never have become what he is now. "You know, Dad, someday I'm going to prove to you that I really am a self-made man. And that's a promise." Besides, if the castle and the armor upset you, wait until you meet the best man.
On cue, OWEN enters with the JUDGE who is to perform the ceremony. Owen has prepared a little videotape of the gargoyles for Stefan and the Judge to watch. That way, they won't swallow their tongues when they see Goliath and Demona. As they all head inside, Owen questions whether this is necessary, will Goliath really show? He'll be here, Xanatos assures him, "I'd take an oath on it."
4. Back at the clock tower during the day, we push in on the stone Goliath and ripple dissolve to his dream/memory.
5. Castle Wyvern, 975 A.D., night. YOUNG GOLIATH finds YOUNG DEMONA standing on the tower with YOUNGISH HUDSON. Demona seems ridiculously happy to see him. Goliath doesn't want to miss PRINCE MALCOLM'S Wedding. She seems a bit distracted. She looks at Hudson, who says "Go on, then." She and Goliath glide down to one of the upper windows of the Great Hall. From there, they watch this strange human ceremony of bonding, including the exchange of rings. Goliath comments on the beauty of the symbolism or something, and Demona takes out the PHOENIX GATE. She separates the two pieces and hands him one. She swears she will never stop loving him. (If she seems a little too intense, we'll chalk it up at this stage to the emotion of the moment.) Goliath takes his half of the gate, and somewhat awed by her intensity, makes a similar vow. They embrace, stroking each other's hair. (The Gargoyle equivalent of kissing.)
6. Dissolve back out to the Clock Tower at Dusk. Goliath and the others explode awake. Goliath goes to a secret hiding place in the clock tower. (Behind the comatose, COLDSTONE, perhaps.) We see the GRIMORUM and the EYE OF ODIN, as well as Goliath's half of the Gate. (He had hidden it a thousand years ago in a hollow brick at the castle, which Xanatos had transported to NYC unaware of its contents. Goliath had retrieved it before moving to the Clock Tower.) He clutches the gate-piece in his huge hand and leaves, never giving the other gargoyles a chance to talk him out of what even he must realize is a foolhardy quest. Hudson watches him go.
7. Night at the castle. Xanatos and Owen wait in the courtyard for Goliath. Both are now dressed in tuxedos, and Xanatos is wearing a lapel pin that depicts a pyramid with an eye at its apex radiating light. Owen questions whether he should be wearing the emblem of the ILLUMINATI SOCIETY in public. Xanatos says cryptically that it's a necessary risk. [By the way, I have no idea if this is an Illuminati symbol or not. But it seems to fit.] Goliath arrives. Owen offers him a bow-tie. Goliath is not amused. Xanatos gives him Fox's wedding ring to hold. That's what the best man does, you see. Hold the ring, until the couple exchanges vows.
The three enter the Great Hall. Everyone is there. The judge and Stefan have already seen Demona, but Goliath is even more startling thanks to his imposing size. Fox is wearing a white dress, but something non-traditional and sexy. And Demona broods. Goliath approaches her, clutching the gate-piece tightly in his fist. She does not even want to talk to him. She feels she has to attend this farce because Xanatos insisted, and she needs to keep him as an ally. But she cannot fathom why Xanatos wants Goliath here. Goliath attempts to remind her of the last wedding they attended together, but she is not interested in reminiscing.
The wedding ceremony begins, rather informally at first. Keep it very short. (At some point, the Judge should ask Fox's real name. Fox coldly informs him that "Fox" is legally her real name now.) We get to the exchange of rings. Goliath hands Xanatos one for Fox. Demona hands Fox one for Xanatos. Demona looks across at Goliath and seems to break down. Just as the Judge pronounces David and Fox, HUSBAND AND WIFE, Demona runs from the Hall. Goliath pursues. Xanatos & Fox, exchange glances. "Now the fun really begins." They start to follow the gargoyles. Stefan tries to restrain his son: What are you up to now? You'd interrupt your own wedding to engage in Machiavellian scheming? But Xanatos is in a bit of a hurry. He and Fox head out the door pursued by Stefan. The Judge turns to Owen very confused. Owen says something dry and witty. And then both men follow the rest.
Outside, Goliath catches up with Demona before she can glide away. Does she remember their vows? Is there still a chance for them? He shows her his gate-piece. He's always kept it. She gently removes it from his hand and takes out hers. So has she. She puts the interlocking pieces together to form the PHOENIX GATE. And then... she laughs. Goliath is such a fool. He's fallen right into Xanatos and Demona's sentimental trap. Now she has the Gate. And she intends to use it. And just as the Xanatos clan approaches, she speaks the incantation. A huge bird of fire seems to engulf Goliath, Demona, David, Fox and Stefan Xanatos. The fire consumes itself. Owen and the Judge arrive just in time to see the last spark go out. There is no sign of the wedding party. Owen: "It seems the honeymoon has begun earlier than expected."
8. Wyvern, Scotland, on the cliffside near the forest overlooking Castle Wyvern. (This is where Hudson and Goliath froze the morning of the gargoyle massacre of 994 A.D. Only now, it's 975 A.D. -- the night of Prince Malcolm's wedding.) Our five time travelers materialize out of the flaming gate. Stefan asks "Where are we?" David: "The question isn't where... but when?"
9. Pick up right where we left off. Demona laughs and launches herself off the cliff. Goliath pursues, leaving the humans behind. Xanatos doesn't waste any time. "Follow me!" He runs back into the forest followed by Fox and a very confused Stefan.
10. Air chase. Demona manages to put some distance between herself and Goliath. She chants the incantation and vanishes into the flaming "Gate", leaving Goliath alone.
11. In the forest, Clan Xanatos comes upon TWO HOODED RIDERS who are being attacked by FOUR ARMED BANDITS on horseback. Although he is unarmed, Xanatos never hesitates, wading right in against the bandits. Xanatos, Fox, the larger of the two riders and even Stefan make short work of the bandits. The bandits are forced to flee without their horses, which Xanatos commandeers for his family. The large rider is grateful but suspicious of these strangers in bizarre garb. Then he notices Xanatos' Illuminati pin and warms up fast, briefly drawing back his cloak, to reveal that he wears the same Illuminati emblem. He tells Xanatos that he is the NORMAN AMBASSADOR. He and his "companion" bring "priceless gifts" to Prince Malcolm of Wyvern. Xanatos may wear strange garb, but he's a great fighter (and a fellow Illuminatus). The Ambassador would be honored if Xanatos' would accompany them the last few miles to Castle Wyvern. He also promises that Prince Malcolm will be very grateful for their help as well.
12. Having lost Demona, Goliath soars closer to the castle, debating with himself whether or not he should land there. Then he spots Demona again from a distance. He circles to intercept her, but as she lands on a castle battlement, she is greeted by a young Goliath. And the adult Goliath realizes that he wasn't tracking his enemy, but her younger counterpart. He comes in for a landing on one of the high towers of the castle, and surreptitiously watches the young lovers below him. It almost tears his heart out. And then he hears Hudson's voice behind him, demanding to know what he's doing up on the tower when he had been assigned to hold watch on the battlement. Adult Goliath turns to see his MENTOR, (the YOUNGER HUDSON). When Hudson gets a good look at him, he immediately sees that something is wrong. And when Hudson sees young Goliath and young Demona, below on the battlement, he's ready to cry sorcery, and Adult Goliath has to slap a hand over his mouth.
13. At the gates of the castle, Xanatos, Stefan, Fox, the Ambassador and the hooded rider are greeted by young Prince Malcolm and the ARCHMAGE. The rider is revealed to be PRINCESS ELENA of Normandy. (I made this name up, and have no idea if it's accurate to tenth century Normandy.) The Ambassador had hoped that by arriving in secret, he and the Princess would avoid just the kind of trouble that Clan Xanatos saved them from. Malcolm is very grateful. He was to marry Elena tomorrow, but because the princess was attacked, he has decided to move up the wedding to this very night. He tells his SERVANTS to prepare the Great Hall. At the Ambassador's prompting, Elena pulls out her father's wedding gift. It is a priceless golden treasure known as the PHOENIX GATE, which she will officially present to the Prince after the ceremony.
14. Meanwhile, with great difficulty, Goliath is trying to convince Hudson that he is not a sorcerous creature, but a visitor from the future. (He does not choose to reveal how far in the future.) Goliath is a bit flustered himself: he doesn't know how much to reveal, and he has to remind himself not to use anachronistic names like Hudson and Demona. He manages to babble out the fact that sometime in the future, he attended the wedding of an enemy and that he and his... enemies were sent back in time by some kind of sorcery. He is particularly concerned for the younger versions of himself and Demona. He needs his MENTOR's help. (This conversation will explain the older Hudson's ambivalence in Scene 2. He remembered meeting the adult Goliath after the latter had attended the wedding of an enemy.) Hudson isn't sure what to believe, but he looks deeply into adult Goliath's eyes and decides to trust him.
15. The Archmage returns to his laboratory. He is furious. At first we think he's ranting to himself, but then we realize he's talking to his apprentice, who cowers a bit in the shadows. It turns out that the Archmage hired the bandits to steal the Phoenix Gate from the Normans. To Malcolm, it is just a gaudy bauble, but to him it is the second talisman of power that he needs. (He has the Grimorum. Doesn't yet have the Eye of Odin.) With it he can transverse space and time in a thought. He needs his apprentice to steal it from the Princess before the wedding. Hesitantly, the apprentice steps forward out of the shadows. It is the young Demona.
16. Fox and Stefan watch as Xanatos hands the Ambassador a letter, and returns to face his father. He tells him that the letter contains instructions for the Illuminati society and two sealed envelopes. The Society is to wait 1000 years and then deliver the first envelope to a young David Xanatos of Bar Harbor, Maine. The envelope contains a small coin, a minor reward requested of the Prince for saving the Princess. The coin is practically worthless in 975, but by 1975 it will be worth about 20 grand. The second envelope is to be delivered twenty years after the first. It contains a detailed account of how the coin was obtained. That's how Xanatos knew how to set all this up. He had received instructions from himself last week. "So you see, Pop. I am indeed a self-made man." Fox beams with pride. Stefan is quiet for a beat. Then asks: "All right, Mr. Big Shot Time Traveler. You sent yourself your little letter before you answered one important question: How do we get home?"
17. Young Demona sneaks into the Princess' room through a window and grabs the Phoenix Gate, while Elena's back is turned. She leaves by the same window, but she doesn't get very far. Suddenly, her older counterpart appears before her in a fiery flash of Phoenix flame.
18. Up on the tower, the burst of Phoenix flame attracts the attention of Goliath, Hudson -- and Young Goliath down on the battlement! Adult Goliath knows the flame signals the arrival of his... enemy. But his younger counterpart MUST NOT investigate. Hudson agrees to waylay young Goliath. Adult Goliath takes off in the direction of the fading flame.
19. Meanwhile, the older Demona confronts her younger self. Both hold a complete version of the Phoenix Gate. (Don't you just love time travel stories?) Anyway, the younger Demona is obviously stunned by what she sees. The older one is right to business. She knows for a fact that her arrival is about to attract some unwanted attention. They need to go somewhere private to talk! She invokes the Latin spell and her gate opens into fire that sucks in both Demonas. At the last possible second, Adult Goliath flies into the fiery gate, and all three vanish.
20. Castle Wyvern. The highest tower. 994 A.D. A few nights after the Massacre. The 994 counterpart of Goliath is frozen in stone (in Thinker pose) at night! Small fires still burn. Fragments of other gargoyles litter the ground. On the cut, the Phoenix Gate deposits Young Demona, Adult Demona and Adult Goliath a few yards above the tower. The Demona's drop down gently enough, but Goliath's momentum from scene 19 sends him crashing into the stone floor of the tower. Adult Demona seems ready for this as well. Before Goliath can recover, she slams him across the back with all her might, plus both fists and the anger of 1000 years. He is knocked unconscious.
And then her real work begins. Young Demona is still in a state of semi-shock. Adult Demona wastes no time. Yes, she is her older self returned from the future with a warning. See the destruction. The death. Goliath frozen in stone at night! Humans did this! And you can stop it! You have the Phoenix Gate. All you have to do is think of a place and time. Hold it in your mind, and by speaking the incantation you are there. With its power you can accomplish anything. Do not give it away to the Archmage. Do not share it with... Do not share it! USE IT!! Destroy all the humans! Rule the Gargoyles! Rule the world!! It's all within your grasp!!!
Goliath starts to come to. Young Demona rushes to his side. Adult Demona intercepts her. "Believe me, I know exactly how you feel." But you cannot trust Goliath. He is weak. He cares more about the humans than the gargoyle clan! The greatest favor you can do him would be to put him out of our misery. (And here is where our Demona has made her big mistake. A mistake made despite the power of hindsight. Because Demona never learns. And because at this time, the younger Demona loves Goliath with all her heart.) Adult Demona: "You must know I'm right! Can't you see I am what you will become?!" And young Demona, still largely innocent and good, snaps: "I will never become like you!" Young Demona attacks adult Demona! Fight scene. Frankly, Young Demona wouldn't be a match for adult Demona, except that the latter is a bit reluctant to trash "herself". Still, it's for her own good.
Goliath regains consciousness and joins the battle. The tide turns and Adult Demona is knocked out this time. Goliath takes her version of the Phoenix Gate from her. Young Demona is pretty near shattered by this whole experience! She turns to Goliath, pleadingly. What should she do?
Goliath is reluctant to use Adult Demona's methods. But he also wants to undo some of the damage the Adult Demona did. Young Demona is touching the frozen version of Goliath. Our Goliath approaches her. Tells her not to worry about this. Not to fear it or look for it. It is not the big catastrophes that must concern her. It is the little slights. The little jealousies and angers that prey upon the heart. Fortify yourself with love and trust, and you need not fear this future.
Goliath looks at Adult Demona. He holds up her Gate. He's not sure he knows how to use it. The younger one lifts her version. She knows how. She speaks the words and the three of them disappear in flames.
21. They reappear in flame on the same tower in 975. Xanatos, Fox and Stefan are there. (The highest point on the castle was the logical place to watch for the Phoenix flames.) Goliath would be tempted to leave Xanatos behind if he wasn't afraid of the damage the guy could do to the future. Goliath says good-bye to young Demona. By now, he's figured out how the gate works. Young Demona steps back out of range. With some hesitancy, Goliath speaks the Latin and our five time travelers disappear.
Young Demona is left alone. She still has her version of the Phoenix Gate, which she holds tightly behind her back. The Archmage comes running up the stairs, clutching the Grimorum. He had seen the Phoenix fire and jumps to the conclusion that young Demona let somebody else get away with the Gate. Before she can reveal that she still has her Gate, he punishes her with a bolt of lightning, and threatens to tell the Prince that she stole the Gate. Hudson glides in, landing between Demona and the Archmage. Hudson wonders why the Archmage would expect Demona to have the Prince's wedding present? If Demona did steal it, who would she be stealing it for? The Archmage takes the hint, begrudgingly. But he won't forget this. He heads back downstairs, grumbling: Those strangely dressed strangers have disappeared. The theft of the Gate can be blamed on them. Obviously, Young Demona never reveals that she still has the Gate.
Young Goliath glides in and in a repeat of the first half of scene 5, Demona seems ridiculously happy to see him. Goliath doesn't want to miss Prince Malcolm's Wedding. Demona seems a bit distracted. She looks at Hudson, who says "Go on, then." She and Goliath glide down to one of the upper windows of the Great Hall.
22. Xanatos' Castle in Manhattan, 1995. A repeat of the end of scene 7: Owen and the Judge arrive on the scene just in time to see the last spark go out. There is no sign of the wedding party. Owen: "It seems the honeymoon has begun earlier than expected."
Our five time travelers reappear. Demona is recovering. Goliath may have defeated her, but he failed too. Demona remembers his little speech from when she was young. She never forgot it. And it didn't change anything. "More's the pity," he says. And he glides off with the Gate.
In excellent spirits, Xanatos approaches his father. "Did you have a good time at the wedding?" Xanatos Senior takes a penny from his pocket and flips it to Xanatos Junior. David catches it and asks, what's this? Stefan says, "It's called a penny. It's not worth much now, but in a 1000 years, who knows. It's my wedding present to you. Because it's all you seem to care about." Stefan turns his back on his son, and walks away.
23. Goliath arrives back at the Clock Tower. Elisa and Brooklyn are there, ready to blast him for going to the wedding. But Hudson takes one look at Goliath and stops them. Goliath puts the Phoenix Gate back in its hiding place with the Grimorum and the Eye. When he turns to face us, there's a single tear rolling down his cheek. Push in on him and ripple dissolve...
24. Castle Wyvern, 975 A.D., night. M.O.S., Young Demona separates the two pieces of the Phoenix Gate and hands one to Young Goliath. They embrace, stroking each other's hair. FADE OUT.
you said that when the wyvern clan got too big it split up to form two clans. would this happen in 'Dark Ages
' or before that?
In DARK AGES, but not until years into the series.
You've mentioned that Bronx wouldn't be hatched when DARK AGES began. Would he have been hatched later down the line in the series?
Yes. If we lasted long enough. Dark Ages starts in 971. Bronx hatches in 978. But in my dreams, we'd run the Dark Ages series for 23 years... from 971 to 994.
DARK AGES q's:
1) Who was the leader before Hudson? Would we see him/her in DARK AGES?
2) Do you intend to have characters that would look like they could be the parents of the trio? (I'm such a human, I know, but biological parentage is a curiosity of mine.)
3) Would Bronx be in it? I love Bronxy.
4) Would Malcolm's brother Kenneth and nephew Chalvim play any role in it?
5) Would Constantine?
1. No. Hudson was already leader by the time Dark Ages begins.
3. Not initially. He wouldn't have hatched yet. Other beasts though.
Now I got you :)! In "City of stone" we see, that Demona is the leader of a little clan, that is robbing scotland. The first time I saw the ep, there was nothing strange on it. But then, I saw something verry, verry weird: One of the Gargoyles is 100% identical with one of the Avalon clan (Its the gargoyle with the brestplate. In "C.o.s." he is arguing with Demona, and in "Avalon, pt.2" he sits in the castle). That he lives on Avalon must mean, that his father is from the Wyvern clan and, so we all thought, is dead. But in "C.o.S." we could see his father alive. So he must be a survivor of the Wyvern massakre...
Well, maybe you could bring some light in that.
No. You're forgetting that a few years before the massacre, Wyvern's Gargoyle population was larger than the location could sustain (or than the humans of the castle would tolerate). Many of those gargoyles left Wyvern to form a new clan, that ultimately didn't fair much better than Wyvern did.
Dear Mr Weisman,
Regarding Timedancer and The Dark Ages, given the time, would you plan to turn both of those into animated shows, or do you feel they are best left as part of the written world?
Given the opportunity, I'd gladly do either as animated series.
Hi Greg, I know you dont like quantifying things, but let me ask you this. As far as the modern Gargates are concerned, were there ever hundreds of clans? Thousands? Millions? And if so, when? Just asking for a ballpark figure, nothing exact or binding. Thanks!
Hundreds, sure, maybe even thousands. But long ago -- pre-Dark Ages.
A follow-up to my previous set of questions---
1. In Dark Ages, would there be any gargoyle beasts playing large roles? Playing any roles at all?
2. Who would be the ruler at the time--- Malcolm, Katherine, or neither one? I'm putting my money on Malcolm, though.
2. Malcolm once the war is won.
1. Do you have many characters thought out for Dark Ages? You've mentioned, lessee, Hudson in the lead, Goliath, Hudson's mate, Demona, Othello, Desdemona, and Iago, as main chracters, and the trio as supporting characters. Any others you care to devulge?
2. Would Bronx have been hatched yet?
3. I imagine Hudson would be more in his prime, and those of Goliath's generation young adults. Would those of the trio's age be hatchlings?
4. What would you refer to the characters by, seeing as gargoyles don't use names? Ex, would Hudson be 'Leader' or 'Mentor' in this context?
5a. Do you plan on creating gargs that would appear as if they were the trio's biological parents?
5b. You've told us in the past that Hudson is Broadway's father, and I for one can see a few common physical traits. Would Hudson's mate, if she appears in Dark Ages, bear any resemblance to Broadway?
6. Would Broadway's sister Hippolyta appear in Dark Ages?
Thank you, Greg.
1. Hippolyta. Malcolm. Robbie. Archmage.
2. Not at the beginning.
4. I admit I have not as yet fully decided this question.
5a. Not specifically. I'm not as interested in biological parentage as many of you seem to be. But it might happen in a more incidental fashion.
5b. Some bit.
6. Yes. But it's pretty much a mistake to refer to her as his sister. His sisters from his point of view are the rookery sisters that are part of his generation. His biological connection to Hippolyta is unimportant.
Happy Rosh Hashanah!
1. A Wyvern is a mythical beast, akin to a dragon. So how come Wyvern Hill is named such? Did a battle with a wyvern occur here, or does one sleep in the caves under the ground? Or something else entirely?
Not saying. But there's a hint in the Dark Ages pitch which you can see at any Gathering -- like next year's in Los Angeles.
Which family did Princess Elena come from prior to her marriage to Prince Malcolm? In "Vows", her escort is described as "the Norman ambassador", which would suggest that she came from the ducal house of Normandy; on the other hand, Normandy was a dukedom rather than a kingdom, which makes me uncertain that a member of its Duke's family would have had the title of "Princess" prior to marrying Prince Malcolm. Which family did you see Elena coming from?
From Normandy. The Norman's may have oversold Elena's title to help "sell" her to Malcolm. (Calling Malcolm a prince, by the way, is equally questionable now that his half-BROTHER is the king.)
As long as I'm up and asking questions...
Do the Gargoyles have an architecture that is particular to their culture?
I realize that question may appear to be a bit odd. I'm also sure that no one else would possibly care, but I am preoccupied with architectural ideas.
I know that we never observed any of them manufacturing barrel vaults or drawing plans, but we do knowt hat their culture contained it's own artifacts. They wore clothing. Occasionally we would see a strange shoulder gaurd or some piece of jewlery. Who made them?
I am entertaining images gargoyles who were the blacksmiths of their clan, forging swords and mace. Might the wyvern clan have contained a master builder who constructed catapults? Maybe who aided in designing the castle, lending a gargoyles more sophisticated sensibility for defense to the design of it's walls?
Did the clan have it's own artists? Musicians? Mathematicians? astronomers?
I'd be perfectly satisfied with an answer to the architect part.
Lex demonstrates that Gargoyles can have special talents. But I don't see architecture as a major function of anyone in the Wyvern Clan. However, that doesn't mean Hudson might not have made some common sense suggestions, when the castle was being designed.
In 1057, how many other gargoyles clans were around?
I know you hate quantifying, so I'm trying to word this question in a way that avoids that. Basically, was the death toll for gargoyles in Wyvern (between 974 and 994 I guess), very big? I mean, we know that Hudson's mate died but would she be an exception or one of quite a few? In "DARK AGES" terms would any (many?) main characters die?
(Obviously, not including everybody that died in the Massacre in the above question.)
A few. Not hordes. That would undercut the massacre.
Oh, and you mentioned that one of the antagonists in "Dark Ages" was to be Constantine's father, but you'd forgotten his name. I've read up quite a bit on that period of Scottish history recently (thanks to "Gargoyles", of course), and discovered that his father's name was Culen - and that apparently this is the same Culen who appears in your "Once Upon A Time There Were Three Brothers" story, as the enemy of Kenneth II and Prince Malcolm.
Exactly. Like I said, I just blanked out on the name.
In a recent response you said it was "very disconcerting" that Goliath had been named by 984 in "Long Way to Morning."
However, in a response on 02-02-2000 you said that Prince Malcom named him about 971 AD.
Hopefully that makes you feel less disconcerted.
(I also hope that you're encouraged to know that at least one person reads the archives.)
Did I say that definitively? Cause in my head, I hadn't decided that yet. Hmmm....
Who would be the villains for Dark Ages besides the Archmage?
Iago, for one.
Constantine's father (I'm blanking on his name right now).
In "Possession", Iago cries at one point, "By the Dragon!" (And I've seen you use similar invocations of "the Dragon" here at least once, for that matter). Just out of curiosity, what is the "Dragon"? (I'm assuming that it has some religious significance for the Wyvern clan, judging from its context, but I won't dare hypothesize anything more than that - particularly on account of the rules).
I never said it was religious.
In the original wyvern clan didd you knoww who lex's mother would be
Lex had a lot of mothers. Quit thinking like a human.
You said that Broadway has a sibling, presumably a sister, named Hyppolyta. Where is she currently--- on Avalon? Was she slaughtered at the Wyvern massacre?
She's dead. I'm not saying more than that now.
Dear Greg Here's another set of questions for you.
1a)How did Demona find those five gargs in City of Stone?
1b)Were the a few clans in Scotland?
2a)Did have a rookery?
2b)Did Demona contribute?
3a)Why did Demona treat her clan more like an army ten family?
3b)Why did Demona do nothing to stop the princess,magus and Tom when they took the clan's eggs?
1a. She searched around. And there were more than five. But they lived in "cells" so that the Hunter couldn't stumble on any one location and destroy them all.
b. I know there's a typo in there, but I still am not sure what this question is.
2a. Demona's clan? Probably they had one when they needed one.
3a. Why do YOU think?
3b. Paralyzing guilt.
Would any of the spinoffs featured the Pack (or at least members of the Pack) as villains?
Thank you for your time.
Sure. Most. Let's see...
Gargoyles 2158 (revised)
And I wouldn't be surprised if we also saw them in
But I would be surprised if they showed up in
Would we have seen Hyppolyta on any series other than Dark Ages?
How did she get her name? Was she aware that she had a name (like Goliath) or unaware of it (Othello, Desdemona etc)?
Possibly TimeDancer. Flashbacks in GARGOYLES, maybe.
That's a decision, I'm still mulling over, frankly. Did anyone notice that Goliath was already named by 984 in "Long Way To Morning"? I didn't, until a recent reviewing revealed it. Very disconcerting.